If the balor full attacks you, he's dead because you then can full attack.A fight between two martials is truly an epic one that has to be seen to be believed. Many epic techniques, crafted, requiring deep thought, passed down through family for generations are used back and forth in a many round fight, leading to a climax and epic finale!
"I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "you can't full attack!" "Why not?" "Cuz you dead!".
Physical techniques, if you are good at them require no thought. Thought inhibits performance and is a sign you need more practice.
Anything requiring deep thought is probably ki related and thus not something I want on a fighter.
Also caster fights
Roll initiative!
Caster 1: I win!
The delaying tactics gives something for the caster to counter so they don't feel unnecessary, or the caster could try for that 50% fail SR and super fort/will saves, or damage spells, or the caster can try something stupid that causes a 30 minute rule debate.By the time you are facing Balors, you really don't have to worry about casters feeling necessary.
You would be surprised the high system mastery it actually takes. Most of us don't realize how much of that we are doing when we talk about casters, since their limit isn't "build" system mastery, but instead "play".
If you choose to ignore the strong caster options is it any surprise you don't see the disparity. Bear in mind here we are talking about pretty standard, easily accessible feats from a major hardback rulebook. No weird GM interpretation required, no argument about RAW versus RAI, just simple straightforward caster options which utterly outclass anything given to any martial character.I write up casters all the time. Not once have I considered spell perfection. So I won't assume it's "standard caster" feat. Nor do I assume fighters grab weapon focus.
Dazing spell, spell perfection, these were bad additions. Maybe not separately, but together...
Spell perfection is just lame. I don't see any reason to get it unless I feel like breaking things.
Dazing spell by itself is not that much of a problem. It's all the effort that goes into breaking it that causes problems.
Physical techniques, if you are good at them require no thought. Thought inhibits performance and is a sign you need more practice.
Doesn't make spamming full attacks any more interesting, though. We could have parry and/opr block mechanics or at least more mobility options.
Also caster fights
Can include anything, not just throwing SoL spells.
Roll initiative!
Caster 1: I win!
Only if they are very ill prepared.
You would be surprised the high system mastery it actually takes. Most of us don't realize how much of that we are doing when we talk about casters, since their limit isn't "build" system master, but instead "play".
Pretty difficult to reach high levels without learning at least a few good tricks... There are so many earth-shattering spells that simply picking a few good ones will ensure casters have dozens of options at high levels.
The other problem I see with trying to give martials many of those cool abilities is that you have too many people who immediately scream "WEABOO FIGHTAN MAGIC!!!" and "I DONT WANT ANIME!!!" which force martials in this weird grey area...
Some people have a really thin line about where magic starts. Some people think even bypassing DR with technique is waeboo fightan' magic, or being a mobile attacker. That doesn't just force them in a weird area, it restrains them and forces them into a very small area, one that might not be very useful.
Physical techniques, if you are good at them require no thought. Thought inhibits performance and is a sign you need more practice.If the balor full attacks you, he's dead because you then can full attack.A fight between two martials is truly an epic one that has to be seen to be believed. Many epic techniques, crafted, requiring deep thought, passed down through family for generations are used back and forth in a many round fight, leading to a climax and epic finale!
"I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "you can't full attack!" "Why not?" "Cuz you dead!".
Well, you can flavor it however you want, you can use your imagination and describe it as an epic showdown. Mechanically its just full attacking though, which requires little thought on the players part.
Well, you can flavor it however you want, you can use your imagination and describe it as an epic showdown. Mechanically its just full attacking though, which requires little thought on the players part.Physical techniques, if you are good at them require no thought. Thought inhibits performance and is a sign you need more practice.If the balor full attacks you, he's dead because you then can full attack.A fight between two martials is truly an epic one that has to be seen to be believed. Many epic techniques, crafted, requiring deep thought, passed down through family for generations are used back and forth in a many round fight, leading to a climax and epic finale!
"I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "you can't full attack!" "Why not?" "Cuz you dead!".
And mechanically the wizard just causes the enemy to roll some saves and then they get conditions. Or they spend a round to make some squares full attack enemies.
The whole game gets pretty boring without any imagination applied. I'll agree to expanding the non-full attack options, but I will not say full attacks are boring.
And mechanically the wizard just causes the enemy to roll some saves and then they get conditions. Or they spend a round to make some squares full attack enemies.Well, you can flavor it however you want, you can use your imagination and describe it as an epic showdown. Mechanically its just full attacking though, which requires little thought on the players part.Physical techniques, if you are good at them require no thought. Thought inhibits performance and is a sign you need more practice.If the balor full attacks you, he's dead because you then can full attack.A fight between two martials is truly an epic one that has to be seen to be believed. Many epic techniques, crafted, requiring deep thought, passed down through family for generations are used back and forth in a many round fight, leading to a climax and epic finale!
"I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "Well I full attack!" "you can't full attack!" "Why not?" "Cuz you dead!".
I know right? I hate when you just say "CAST SPELL!" instead of having to think about what spell to cast.
And mechanically the wizard just causes the enemy to roll some saves and then they get conditions. Or they spend a round to make some squares full attack enemies.
The whole game gets pretty boring without any imagination applied. I'll agree to expanding the non-full attack options, but I will not say full attacks are boring.
Not really. Each save has a different effect. The player has to think and make a decision... Which spell to use, which enemy to target, what effect to cause, etc. It involves decision-making. Spamming the same thing over and over again doesn't.
Full-attacks are not boring, spamming them because martials have no other effective option is.
Physical techniques, if you are good at them require no thought. Thought inhibits performance and is a sign you need more practice.Doesn't make spamming full attacks any more interesting, though. We could have parry and/opr block mechanics or at least more mobility options.
Yep. Something I have notice is most martials in PF can't block attacks with their weapons. Most of your AC comes from scaling magic items.
You don't need 13 int to deflect attacks with your weapon. I consider that a flavor problem.
Yep. Something I have notice is most martials in PF can't block attacks with their weapons. Most of your AC comes from scaling magic items.
Which is why I removed RoP and AoNA from the game and now give their (scaling) benefits for free to all players. Same goes for Cloaks of Resistance and Belts/Headband of Whatever-Attribute-Bonus
You don't need 13 int to deflect attacks with your weapon. I consider that a flavor problem.
I's particularly funny when you notice that...
A- With Int 12, you can learn advanced ways to bend reality (i.e.: 2nd level spells) but can't learn something that basically amounts to fighting defensively.
B- Dr. Stephen Hawking certainly qualifies for Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc. Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal and Anderson Silva... Probably not.
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spamming them because martials have no other effective option is.
I disagree. Spamming the same thing over and over again doesn't make it boring.
For example, look at shooters. All you ever do is shoot and yet people spend hundreds of hours "spamming their gun" because they don't have better options.
Golf is a well enjoyed sport and that is just "spamming you golf swing over and over again".
In jRPGs people can spam the same attack over and over again.
Lot's of MMOs are just people doing the same thing over and over again to do the same thing with bigger numbers.
"Spamming full attacks!" is not enough of an observation to conclude that it is boring. The underlining reason for the disinterest is more important. And it is not something I am aware of.
Yep. Something I have notice is most martials in PF can't block attacks with their weapons. Most of your AC comes from scaling magic items.Which is why I removed RoP and AoNA from the game and now give their (scaling) benefits for free to all players. Same goes for Cloaks of Resistance and Belts/Headband of Whatever-Attribute-Bonus
I've considered that, but being able to max certain items quicker is part of the agency given to the players. I don't want to take that away. (Like cloaks will probably max out by like level 13)
It seems to me that the game's "Christmas tree" is too core to the mechanics to muck around with too much.
Lot's of MMOs are just people doing the same thing over and over again to do the same thing with bigger numbers.
The TAB123 idealism actually chases away a lot of business, but video games do have mechanical limitations. How they act and how a tabletop act is going to be pretty different, especially since video games can be much more active and reactive to the player but have a limited scope in how they can do so, while a GM can break the mold much more easily.
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Boring is subjective... But thoughtless repetition certainly adds to it.
For example, look at shooters. All you ever do is shoot and yet people spend hundreds of hours "spamming their gun" because they don't have better options.
And yet, you gotta re-position your self, catch the opponent off-guard, coordinate with your team... Nothing close to that is necessary when trading full-attacks.
Golf is a well enjoyed sport and that is just "spamming you golf swing over and over again".
The difference is that golf is testing your accuracy. Spamming full attacks requires no ability other than saying the same sentence over and over again and rolling dice. .
In jRPGs people can spam the same attack over and over again.
OTOH, they often have multiple attacks that are just as effective. They choose the one that is most appropriate. e.g.: Use the fire attack against the ice creature, then use the holy attack against ghosts, etc. They also often include using more than 1 character at the same time, which adds variety to the game.
I grew tired of JRPGs because of grinding, which is IMO, one the biggest flaws a game can have.
Lot's of MMOs are just people doing the same thing over and over again to do the same thing with bigger numbers.
Again, MMO often include adjusting your use of particular attacks and abilities at each moment, the ones that don't are also boring. Not the case with PF full attack, it's a single fit for everything. There is no decision making of any kind.
So my fighter has to choose between melee or range, if melee whether or not to lunge.
I have to pick the location and position of myself relative to my allies depending on what they want to do.
That's just scratching the surface, but my actions in combat take a lot of thought and consideration.
I grew tired of JRPGs because of grinding, which is IMO, one the biggest flaws a game can have.Try "The World Ends With You". Really smart and elegant solution to grinding. Incredibly Japanese though
Well... you could still grind, but over time you digested hot dogs that gave you more stats! Leveling your pins(equips) was a pain though, and some had branching evolutions that changed depending on how you got the xp(trade/wait and battle). Art was pretty wicked, though it liked reskins.
Combat was... interesting. Nintendo power described it as being something meant for octopus. Lots of ways to play because you had a pretty wide variety of weapons.
So uhh... what happened to rogues anyway?
So my fighter has to choose between melee or range, if melee whether or not to lunge.
Chances are, he doesn't. If he's devoted to melee, he'll try and force melee every time, because versatility is not a thing for martials.
I have to pick the location and position of myself relative to my allies depending on what they want to do.
You can't do that and full-attack. Full-attacking is boring because it forces you to stand still and take no decision. And what's even worse, without it, you might as well not be there.
That's just scratching the surface, but my actions in combat take a lot of thought and consideration.
Combat for Fighters basically go like this...
Can I Full Attack?
Yes: Full attack.
No: Move into a position where you can (hopefully) full attack next round.
Mind-blowing tactics there...
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I see you guys are still making the mistake of engaging marthkus, why? he is posting total nonsense. When someone does that, refuse to engage with them
Because I have an hour's worth of free time and the forum isn't active enough to distract me from it? Gotta' do something with your Monday morning!
I'm just bored...
I think what he meant is that for 3 feats you should get benefits of VS for each attack, including iteratives in full attack, AoOs, Cleave, etc. The context you get from reading the second sentence, that you left out of the quote, indicates that.For feat, Vital strike should replace ALL single melee attacks.ftfy
I wouldn't include full attacks but every other single melee attack makes sense to me for three feats. EDIT: So would include Cleave, AOOs, charging, ect.
VS at least on the first attack of a Full Attack and on AoO would be nice.
So my fighter has to choose between melee or range, if melee whether or not to lunge.Chances are, he doesn't. If he's devoted to melee, he'll try and force melee every time, because versatility is not a thing for martials.
I have to pick the location and position of myself relative to my allies depending on what they want to do.You can't do that and full-attack. Full-attacking is boring because it forces you to stand still and take no decision. And what's even worse, without it, you might as well not be there.
That's not true.
Range is always a consideration.
You can move and full attack (5ft step). Also setting up the full attack requires tactical awareness. Furthermore sometime the full attack isn't worth it. If you are fighting 2 high level rogues, getting in position to prevent flanking reduces their damage output to almost nothing (nooby non-feint rogues).
Single attacks HURT. They don't 1-round the creature, but it's more than enough to be significant, especially if you did burn the feats on vital strike.
I see you guys are still making the mistake of engaging marthkus, why? he is posting total nonsense. When someone does that, refuse to engage with themBecause I have an hour's worth of free time and the forum isn't active enough to distract me from it? Gotta' do something with your Monday morning!
What do people think I'm doing? I would be playing GW2 if my computer would do it without burning my hands.
Seems fun with a mobile full attacking dude...
That more or less is more or less true for all martials, you can have options with the other martials if you so choose it, the same with fighters (specially at level 20).Combat for Fighters basically go like this...
Can I Full Attack?
Yes: Full attack.
No: Move into a position where you can (hopefully) full attack next round.
Mind-blowing tactics there...
Indeed. It's just far more obvious for Fighters.
So uhh... what happened to rogues anyway?
They are still trying to flank something.
So uhh... what happened to rogues anyway?They are still trying to flank something.
I started a rogue thread once asking for non-strength rogues that didn't depend on flanking
1) I got viable builds.
2) Half the post were people calling me a troll for asking for such a ridiculous standard.
I find that if your rogue is dependent on flanking, that he/she will be about as useful as an expert for most fights. The guides that disparage feint for only "being one attack" don't realize that doing noticeable damage but maxing lower, is WAY better than maxing out at still crap damage and being an NPC for a lot of fights.
In jRPGs people can spam the same attack over and over again.
Which JRPGs have you been playing? I can't name one I've seen or played in the past ten years in which a non-caster had less than a half-dozen options other than their basic attack.
In jRPGs people can spam the same attack over and over again.Which JRPGs have you been playing? I can't name one I've seen or played in the past ten years in which a non-caster had less than a half-dozen options other than their basic attack.
I was talking about spamming. You still spam the same combo over and over again for the none boss fights.
I was talking about spamming. You still spam the same combo over and over again for the none boss fights.In jRPGs people can spam the same attack over and over again.Which JRPGs have you been playing? I can't name one I've seen or played in the past ten years in which a non-caster had less than a half-dozen options other than their basic attack.
No I don't. I get bored if I use the exact same combo all the time.
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For those who don't understand the issues with some things between martials and non:
This guy literally built a giant wizards tower... on the sun... because he was bored and annoyed. I mean, really? Oh! And he isn't even level 20...
No I don't. I get bored if I use the exact same combo all the time.I was talking about spamming. You still spam the same combo over and over again for the none boss fights.In jRPGs people can spam the same attack over and over again.Which JRPGs have you been playing? I can't name one I've seen or played in the past ten years in which a non-caster had less than a half-dozen options other than their basic attack.
Spamming attack isn't really the meat of the game usually, if ever. In new game+ or the bonus dungeons in a lot of JRPGs that'll get you killed, unless your way overleveled. Its kind of half butting if your story or gameplay suffers imo.
I kind of agree with Pan to be honest. I feel as though the system could very easily become a gritty game as a core assumption by removing or altering a lot of the truly obnoxious spell options for casters and leaving most of the martial options as is.
You could then have a system of rules similar in style to mythic rules called "Ultimate Fantasy" or something that basically give back a lot of the power to casters, but as a consequence, makes high level skill use a part of the core assumptions and makes martial or non magic characters less reliant on magic items by giving some of those goodies as class features. Basically, you give casters in this paradigm the big ugly save or loose spells, but martials are getting better save progressions and uses of skills that emulate spells to a degree. Obviously less diverse, but just as strong in those specific areas.
Mythic rules Could be the supplement for the special cases. The first two tiers amount to different styles of play and mythic makes each character uniquely heroic, I'm thinking this might function like gestalt rules, where you have your standard class, but get to progress another class in addition to the base class. The mythic class would be beyond the scope of normal play in either of the two previous tiers.
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Slightly off-topic, but does anyone else get the feeling that a fair number of spells should be merely auto-succeeding on things that could be done with spells? Like, for instance, Charm and Dominate spells being something a really really high diplomacy check could do, or Cause Fear being attainable via a high intimidate check.