Hi, we're playing RotRL at the moment and I have a problem with one character in the group.
One of our group plays a strength-build monk and he outshines everyone in the group, in combat and out of combat.
We're playing 15-points buy and are 5 player:
Human Witch 8
Halfling summoner/rouge 7/1
Half-Elf Cleric 8
Dwarven Ranger/Wizard 3/5
and then the Monk 8...
My problem with the monk is that there seems to be no weak side at the monk, he's always in all tasks perform best
Combat
4 Base attacks +11/+11/+6/+6 1d10+12 (Str 20, Weapon Focus, Amulet of mighty fist, power attack) +1 Attack if he spents a KI Point
AC in the top 20th to early 30th (witches ward and summoner add mage armor).
Out of combat (stealth, perception etc.): 4+Int skill points and a bunch of special abilities
Am I to jaelouse here or are Monks a little bit over the top compared to other classes?
(e.g. Fighter - good combat stats (even weak compared to the monk (2-4 attacks with less damage total per round), tradeoff no skill points, weak out of combat stats)
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I'm guessing your other players are not optimized in the least. Monks are amongst the weakest of classes. Especially in a 15 point buy simply because of how MAD they are. I'm also left to wonder why you've posted in the suggestions/house rules/homebrew forum.
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Sounds like the rest of your party is pretty terrible, quite honestly.
I can see how he's the best in combat, since you have no other combat classes, but unless your Witch, Summonrogue, and Rangwizard pumped all their skill points into Profession: Basket Weaving I don't see how he wins in skills at all.
They should ALL have more skill points a level than he does.
I'd love to know his stats... and how he got his AC so high. Str 20 with a 15 point build... would mean little left for DEX and Wis which is where a lot of it usually comes from.
And yeah, very little left for Int either... so 4+ shouldn't be overwhelming. In fact, for our 7th level characters we usually can't make the DCs unless we've maxed something out it feels like.
I love the idea of monks and will try one someday... but I've never seen anyone claim they were OP like you are before.
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If he's Str based his Wis/Dex are both probably around the 14 mark, so his AC is 20 (with the mage armor). Even if they are both 16, then his AC is 22. With Ward (before it blinks away), AC 25. As a Qinggong, he could Barkskin to 28. That's a pretty good AC, but Barkskin won't last the entire day, and he will lose the Ward.
(Ward is a pretty bad Hex because it doesn't stack with rings of protection/cloak of resistance, and disappears at the first sign of trouble).
In conclusion, he's probably the only one at the table with a clue about how to optimize. And the rest of the party is buffing him (which is fine, it makes his success belong to them as well).
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He's more or less the only real martial in your group and the others buff him to do it even better. Where's the problem? Especially if his to hit is rather weak for level 8.
It seems you lack comparison; I currently GM RotRl; in my group they are all level 8 too and last session the gunslinger obliterated the main enemy of the chapter by dealing ca. 130 points of damage - in one round. (I admit it: one hit was a crit). Group Evil did not even have a chance to act.
I'd love to know his stats... and how he got his AC so high. Str 20 with a 15 point build... would mean little left for DEX and Wis which is where a lot of it usually comes from.
And yeah, very little left for Int either... so 4+ shouldn't be overwhelming. In fact, for our 7th level characters we usually can't make the DCs unless we've maxed something out it feels like.
I love the idea of monks and will try one someday... but I've never seen anyone claim they were OP like you are before.
Stats I know so far:
Str 18(+2 by two level ups)Dex 14 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 7(maybe con/Wis swapped, don't know exactly)
AC is 10 +2 Dex +2 Monk AC +3 Defl. AC (Ward) +4 Armor AC (Mage Armor) +1 nat. armor +1 Headband of Wisdom = 23 AC (25 with 14 Wis instead of Con)... mhh something wrong here or I miss something...
If I compare his damage with a level 8 Fighter (THE melee fighter) I get to something like (Str 20, power attack):
(Two-Handed Weapon) Att: 11/6 2d6+17
(Two weapon fighting) Att: 9/9/4/4 2x (1d8+11); 2x (1d6+7)
AC is somthing around 10 (+11 [Fullplate+2], +3 Dex, +3 Ward) = 26
Pure martials tend to be relatively easy to play at low levels, and with a little optimization or system mastery can be effective. Casters can reach ungodly levels of power, but only in the hands of someone who knows the spell list well and plays to their strengths. Your Witch and Cleric have casting options that make can the monk look inadequate already, as would your Wizard if they hadn't multiclassed.
I'm currently playing a Kingmaker campaign with a level 4 party. Our 2-Handed fighter ends up killing a lot of stuff on his own, as he's got decent strength, weapon focus and power attack. He hits stuff and it dies. I have no doubt that as we increase in level and things start to fly/have immunities/DR etc then the druid and wizard will start to outshine him.
If you're only worried about things never landing hits on him, I believe you're starting to reach the point in that AP where every monster starts to hit like a shockingly accurate truck. So, I wouldn't really worry too much about it.
Alternatively, have things go for the casters more often.
Yeah, I have to agree the rest of the party cannot be optimized at all and the monk optimized to the hilt in order to get such a discrepancy.
Well, he got 7 AC from other party members, you cant complain about his AC because it isnt his own effort, but the whole group's.
A damage optimized fighter or barbarian could pull twice his damage output at that level, by the way.
If your PCs are level 8 then that would mean they are finishing book 2, starting book 3 correct? Honestly, most mooks in the AP have low AC's (mini-bosses the exception). People with Power Attack are able to gauge this and smash accordingly. A high AC will come in handy too once giants start swinging at him.
Judging by the stats you posted, he's right where he needs to be provided you present a challenging adventure for your group. The other PC's on the other hand, they'll need to step it up it seems like.
AC is 10 +2 Dex +2 Monk AC +3 Defl. AC (Ward) +4 Armor AC (Mage Armor) +1 nat. armor +1 Headband of Wisdom = 23 AC (25 with 14 Wis instead of Con)... mhh something wrong here or I miss something...
Perhaps Ki Point for AC +4 (27-29). Haste would bring that up to 30. Maybe Dodge feat also.
But as others have said, he's about to have some trouble with heavy hitting opponents. Might even need to buff him more so he can stand in the way (fighting defensively or total defense).
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My question is how did the Monk outshine the Summoner's Eidolon? Even with a one level dip, compared to a 15 point buy - that Summoner's Eidolon either is made for something other than combat, or was just too confusing for that player.
A combat oriented Eidolon of a 7th level Summoner should outfight an 8th level monk from a 15 point build every time. It would be different if it was 25 point buy, yet 15 points?
If the Eidolon is ignored for Summon Monster spell-like ability, why didn't the summoner use augmented summoning to monkey stomp everything?
What is the Eidolon build, may I ask?
Flagged for being in the wrong subforum.
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Noone questioned his observations. May we comment on Tryn's observations, dear Vulcans, to perhaps broaden his perspective?
To clarify: I don't think monks are a bad class. I just don't see them outshining other classes all the time - in this case the party is even helping him, and I think that is a good thing.
Maybe "outshine" just isn't the right word here.
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Sounds like the monk knows how to play his class and the others are not building optimally. Not a problem...the cleric and witch will put him to shame come levels 12+ if they have any understanding of the classes. The monk like all melee classes start to fade after level 12. This is one of the main reasons PFS goes only to 12th level as it doesn't want to discourage players from playing melee.
The casters have to get over it...they will come into power soon.
Drop some dispel magics on him. Combined with high ac opponents. Or really high ac with a lower touch ac. He can't hit it but the cleric and witch can with a touch.
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That's Vulcans for you. Personally, I love to hear people say, "Since your observed data does not match my preconceptions, your observed data must be inaccurate."
As a scientist, it's not so much about saying that your observed data is inaccurate, as saying that one or two cases of contradictory evidence don't necessarily disprove a well-established trend. There are several reasons why someone might observe powerful monks even if monks in general are not powerful:
- You might be testing under different conditions. As others pointed out, low-AC opponents favour the monk since their flurry pays off more.
- You might be using a different measurement. A monk in a group full of casters may very well win the "direct damage dealt" contest even if the casters' buffs and control spells contributed more than their share to the victory.
- You might have run into a statistical outlier. Even if most monks are less powerful than most fighters, there will still be some monks that are more powerful than some fighters.
EDIT: The real question here is, do the other players feel like they are not having fun or not contributing due to the monk - or conversely does the monk feel inadequately challenged? If the players are enjoying the game as-is there is no need for change.
I'd love to know his stats... and how he got his AC so high. Str 20 with a 15 point build... would mean little left for Dex and Wis which is where a lot of it usually comes from.Y'know, that kind of piques my interest too. Doesn't sound very 15-point to me...
It checks out. The monk bought a 16 in strength, with a +2 racial bonus and +2 stat increases for being level 8. That's 10 points + 10 points for two 14s - 5 points for dumping Int and Cha = 15 points. The AC includes +7 from party members' buffs.
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Having my party of pretty beefy dudes getting roflstomped by a lot of the encounters in the third book (A paladin, a cleric, a sorcerer, a magus, and a Rogue/Cavalier) I can honestly say this tyranny of monk will not last very long.
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yeah this monk is going to start getting s!$& on by giants for the rest of the campaign....good luck grappling that or trading blows with it.
Further fun creatures as a DM to look forward to Stomping this monk into the ground with:
Dragons (my favorite), Outsiders, Constructs, Wizards, Himself, and Karzoug The Runelord of Greed
Next few books he will be picking his teeth off the ground after most fights.
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I hate the grapple rules. I hate the grapple rules in every game in every addition ever.
Hate.
Hate.
Hate.
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That's a really interesting feat concept. It gives a character a "shadow of the colossus" feel.
Ok, it seems I'm simply not used to the damage output of high Strength chars...
So my mistake, sorry. :(
Ok, it seems I'm simply not used to the damage output of high Strength chars...
So my mistake, sorry. :(
That's pretty common; new people often go "wait what" and come here to ask if they are doing it right when the great sword fighter with power attack is adding like +15 at level 4 in their game.
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As a general rule of thumb, martial characters (regardless of class) are supposed to deal obscene damage. It's what they do. It's pretty much the only reason to have them around. The roll of "meat shield" can be filled in by many other magical-sourced things, including but not limited to summons, animated minions, etc.
However, the martial's job is to kill things and kill them well. Murdering something with a sword should generally be more effective and less resource intensive than throwing lots of spells at it. Instead, it's usually a better idea to buff the martial a little bit (or debuff your enemy a little bit) and unleash them to deliver their righteous (or unrighteous) fury on your enemies.
If a martial is killing everything. GOOD. That's their job. It means they are earning their experience points and a rightful place in their party, because they weren't murdering everything better, there would be no reason to have them instead of another *insert spellcaster here*.
This really reads like a discrepancy in the players skill rather than an issue with class balance. The monk doesn't sound particularly overpowered, which calls into question how the other players can be so weak.
Probably if the Monk was playing one of those other classes, you'd be saying how overpowered whatever class that player chose was compared to whatever class the other players in that group chose.
The summoner/rogue and ranger/wizard sound like questionable multiclass choices in terms of combat effectiveness. Maybe some optimizer might have some non-obvious reason for doing that, but if they're getting outshined so badly by a monk that's probably not what's going on. A well played single class summoner or wizard should be fairly impressive by then.
A human witch can do all kinds of stuff that will make your DM cry. If out of all the hex choices Ward was one of their picks, they may not be making very effective choices.
Your DM may be going easy on you because of inexperienced players. If not, then you may be in trouble soon as the encounters start getting harder and enemies start exploiting your group's weaknesses more.
To give you a counter example my sons level 2 barbarian in my Mummys Mask campaign did 56 points of damage on a raged crit.
I'm struggling to find a situation where your monk could top that with a single hit even at his level.
Monks are fun characters to play (I play one in a Righteous Wrath campaign - mythic makes mad a nonissue) - but being big flashy martial isn't really what they shine at.
Wait wait wait...the monk in your campaign doesn't suck?
Is everyone else playing a commoner?
But in all seriousness, it sounds like your monk player has reasonably optimized his character while your other players have either no real understanding of the game's mechanics or have purposefully made weak characters.
To be honest, your monk's abilities sound pretty average, excepting that if he has a 20 in strength how is he managing to have any points in any other stats at a 15 point buy. So his dex and con should be pretty low leading to low HP and AC.
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To be honest, your monk's abilities sound pretty average, excepting that if he has a 20 in strength how is he managing to have any points in any other stats at a 15 point buy. So his dex and con should be pretty low leading to low HP and AC.
His Dex and Con are low, as is his Wisdom. He has two of the casters buffing his AC which is the only reason he is staying upright in fights.
The second he gets hit with a dispel magic, he is going to be basically impossible to miss.
To be honest, your monk's abilities sound pretty average, excepting that if he has a 20 in strength how is he managing to have any points in any other stats at a 15 point buy. So his dex and con should be pretty low leading to low HP and AC.His Dex and Con are low, as is his Wisdom. He has two of the casters buffing his AC which is the only reason he is staying upright in fights.
The second he gets hit with a dispel magic, he is going to be basically impossible to miss.
So, he's a glass cannon being buffed by half of the party? No wonder he's doing adequately. And I stress adequately. Because his to hit and damage are about on par with my 5th level ranger archer. 3 levels and 20,000 more gp and he would be behind the times.
To give you a counter example my sons level 2 barbarian in my Mummys Mask campaign did 56 points of damage on a raged crit.
I'm struggling to find a situation where your monk could top that with a single hit even at his level.
Fairly impressive, only possible with a x3 crit weapon and maxed strength. With a great axe a 24 raging strength and P.A. the dice would read like 5,6,6. I've hit for more at 2nd :)
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Tryn wrote:
Ok, it seems I'm simply not used to the damage output of high Strength chars...
So my mistake, sorry. :(
That's pretty common; new people often go "wait what" and come here to ask if they are doing it right when the great sword fighter with power attack is adding like +15 at level 4 in their game.
This is true. Some DMs who don't now my Charger are completely taken aback by average 50 damage at level 5. I get the reaction of, "Wait what?...How are you hitting for so much?" Its common when a Character is played with a high strength and good strategy.
Give it time...Melee combatants loose strength quickly and then it becomes more about Game changing Magic and the melee types fall behind.
I was confused until I saw the other thread...
The Ranger/wzard is wizard 5/ranger 3 with a focus in crosbows...
So yeah... just laying that out there....