Goblin Squad Member
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The quickest way to speed up the process that will take place in Jonestown with or without my intervention; is to attach myself to a settlement interested in building a more attractive alternative to the north. Such a better method than standing on the road with a sword trying to stop them from coming.
No I have not hired UNC to attack them. Even if I would be willing to something tells me they will do it for free. There are still some individuals in the Roseblood Accord who have quite a history of bad blood with UNC.
Yeah, and..... wha?... Huh?... for Free!! Now that is just silly talk I tell you, silly!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh he'll get paid handsomely, just not by me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's taken a careful look at how much unprotected territory every caravan coming in and out of Jonestown will have to move through.
I hope the Kool Aid shipments are delivered much later, rather than sooner.
Lol I just had the image of the flower children of Thulsa Doom, making their pilgrimage to Mount Doom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't understand why so many people think that K is going to be some incredible merchant stop on the crossroads. It's a great bandit settlement because of its proximity to two roads, both going to NPC settlements, and because it's a little tucked away. It's not optimal for a merchant settlement and it most likely won't become the trade hub that people expect. Consider for a moment that O is only one more hex away from the crossroads than K is, and you'll quickly see that there are 3 non-lettered settlements that are closer, two of them significantly so. In fact, the one at (-17,05) has a very close and direct path to the crossroads and can exert direct pressure on two of the three roads leading to the crossroads fairly easily.
Xeen, I'm replying to your post though I've heard the merits of K preached by many more than just you, so please don't take this as a personal attack of any kind. Also, you mentioned that it's better and not that it's better for a merchant settlement specifically. I definitely agree that it's an awesome place for bandits or even "good guys" who want to help "protect" the roads.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If K is built, it has the potential to be the best settlement in the game. Sitting at a crossroads of every NPC settlement will have merits no other place can have.
(probably was a good idea to delete that Avari lol, you probably dont want to be known as Xeen of T7V)
LOL, I deny it happened. (have to admit it was funny)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The biggest problem I had with K is exactly because of its location and surroundings. True, it has the potential Trading Center or like Uthreth said, a Bandit Powerhouse. But it will be hard to defend. Can easily be surrounded by enemies with few if any natural barriers.
For a Merchant Settlement, it will spend a lot of time defending itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since the main roads are heavily patrolled by NPCs, I think the best places for bandits to ambush is between settlements and the roads. Trading centres would probably want to be near a road to minimize the unpatrolled area needed to be traversed when moving goods.
From this perspective, closer to (any) main road = safer transportation of goods = better spot for trading centre. Am I missing something?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since the main roads are heavily patrolled by NPCs, I think the best places for bandits to ambush is between settlements and the roads. Trading centres would probably want to be near a road to minimize the unpatrolled area needed to be traversed when moving goods.
From this perspective, closer to (any) main road = safer transportation of goods = better spot for trading centre. Am I missing something?
I don't think you are missing much. We don't know if "heavily patrolled" is the case, but if it is "random", I hope that means anywhere from "instant" to no more than 5 minutes response time.
Sing and dance, take a chance....
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Goblin Squad Member
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The biggest problem I had with K is exactly because of its location and surroundings. True, it has the potential Trading Center or like Uthreth said, a Bandit Powerhouse. But it will be hard to defend. Can easily be surrounded by enemies with few if any natural barriers.
Actually, the entire southern edge of K's territory has an elevation drop down to the road... which is NPC patrolled. That's TWO 'natural barriers'. If K residents hold the two passes adjacent to their territory (potentially with NPC help) they're completely shielded from the South and West.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, the entire southern edge of K's territory has an elevation drop down to the road... which is NPC patrolled. That's TWO 'natural barriers'. If K residents hold the two passes adjacent to their territory (potentially with NPC help) they're completely shielded from the South and West.
Ah... but NPC protection works both ways. It allows the invaders to group outside the city freely in preparation for the attack. Pre-preemptive strikes would incur NPC wrath and effectively help blockade the city.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It should be noted that the NPC Protectors that patrol the NPC Roads take longer to arrive on scene the further you are from an NPC Settlement. K is actually about as far away as you can get from the three planned NPC Settlements and still be on a road between them.
I remember that too. Kind of weird, IMO. In the case of roads, wouldn't a "patrol" of NPCs either be near the event or not, on a random chance?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be a continuum of security established around NPC Settlements and along certain roads. In those areas, PvP may be disabled, or attackers may face rapid and overwhelming response from NPC "Marshals" who will appear and destroy aggressors. The further one travels from a secure area, the slower such response will be, meaning that attacking close to secure territory will usually mean the attackers are destroyed before they can take out their targets, but further away they may be able to take down their target before they're in turn destroyed by the Marshals.
Nihimon, if the "secure areas"=NPC settlements, then what you say is definitely true. If the roads are also "secure areas", then it need not be true.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It should be noted that the NPC Protectors that patrol the NPC Roads take longer to arrive on scene the further you are from an NPC Settlement. K is actually about as far away as you can get from the three planned NPC Settlements and still be on a road between them.I remember that too. Kind of weird, IMO. In the case of roads, wouldn't a "patrol" of NPCs either be near the event or not, on a random chance?
Not at all, think about it. The closer to a police station you are the more likely you are to see a cop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not at all, think about it. The closer to a police station you are the more likely you are to see a cop.It should be noted that the NPC Protectors that patrol the NPC Roads take longer to arrive on scene the further you are from an NPC Settlement. K is actually about as far away as you can get from the three planned NPC Settlements and still be on a road between them.I remember that too. Kind of weird, IMO. In the case of roads, wouldn't a "patrol" of NPCs either be near the event or not, on a random chance?
I will work with it in any way they design it. I would point out a couple of things though:
1. Police don't usually head to an incident "from" the police station exclusively. Usually it is "all units in the vicinity".
2. Beyond a certain radius from a police station and within the areas they patrol, you are just as likely to run across a unit, anywhere within the zones that they cover.
At least in the way I picture it in this context. It seems you would pay attention equally to the areas that you intend to safeguard, to the degree that you do have such intent. YMMV ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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It should be noted that the NPC Protectors that patrol the NPC Roads take longer to arrive on scene the further you are from an NPC Settlement. K is actually about as far away as you can get from the three planned NPC Settlements and still be on a road between them.
My understanding of this has been more along the lines of increasing response times for;
NPC settlement hex
One hex from NPC settlement
Two hexes from NPC settlement
NPC road hex
NPC response time for roads varying by distance from the nearest NPC settlement is possible, but seems odd to me.
Regardless... some degree of 'barrier' exists from the NPC patrols of the road. Another 'barrier' exists from the elevation change. Thus, it doesn't fit to say that settlement K lacks natural barriers... in reality it has more than most settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If NPC patrols are like other NPCs (for example laborers in your settlement or POI) and are not actually seen in the world until there is a reason for the game system to render them, then it may be that the patrols simply spawn where needed. That would imply, it seems to me, that an NPC patrol responds as a timed event. I would expect the timing of the spawn to factor distance from their base settlement or outpost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does have two natural barriers to the West and Southeast. However North and East are completely exposed and the Southeast barrier is easily bypassed.
Where TEO is at AD only has three ways to reach because of natural barriers. The North one should be controlled by TEO, the South will be controlled by T7V and potentially anyone at AC. The East one will be hard to get to since any sizable force will have to get by AB to reach until they expand the Southeast map.
I've heard scenarios of AD being blocked off from trading. But that would require a force strong enough to control all three choke points. If a force strong enough to do that arises then we would probably lose anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If NPC patrols are like other NPCs (for example laborers in your settlement or POI) and are not actually seen in the world until there is a reason for the game system to render them, then it may be that the patrols simply spawn where needed. That would imply, it seems to me, that an NPC patrol responds as a timed event. I would expect the timing of the spawn to factor distance from their base settlement or outpost.
SHhhhhhhhhhh...... No one listen to Being, especially merchants, he has no clue what he is saying?
;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most settlements come without any form of natural barrier at all. K does have some but it will be a high traffic / highly desirable Hex. That's a double edged sword. It means high competition over K and frequent threats to it's security. High traffic also drives up trade, recruitment, and the political relevance of the group who controls it.
K is an ambitious pick. IMO the most ambitious in the game followed by V. High potential gains and high potential competition.
If the traffic is low and it is not highly desirable though, then it ends up being neither very valuable nor highly contested. Just a nice hill area with nearby starmetal and great road access.
It's encouraging to me that K, V, A and B are all still viable picks. Those are by far my favorites.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be a continuum of security established around NPC Settlements and along certain roads. In those areas, PvP may be disabled, or attackers may face rapid and overwhelming response from NPC "Marshals" who will appear and destroy aggressors. The further one travels from a secure area, the slower such response will be, meaning that attacking close to secure territory will usually mean the attackers are destroyed before they can take out their targets, but further away they may be able to take down their target before they're in turn destroyed by the Marshals.Nihimon, if the "secure areas"=NPC settlements, then what you say is definitely true. If the roads are also "secure areas", then it need not be true.
Here's the reference.
Security, Risk and Reward
The closer you come to an NPC settlement, the faster the NPCs can respond to hostile actions taken against you. The NPCs establish a zone of hexes around each NPC settlement creating an area of relative safety (compared to the uncontrolled wilderness). In the hexes containing and immediately adjacent to the NPC settlement, magical effects make it impossible for one character to attack another unless the characters are in war—warfare being a future blog topic of some length!
Outside this immediate zone of total safety, the NPCs of the settlement will respond with a system we are calling "marshals." NPC marshals will respond to acts of aggression near their settlement by traveling to the location of the infraction and killing the aggressor. Because the marshals are dispatched from specific locations, their time to reach the site of the conflict will depend on how far away the fight is from the marshals' barracks.
That was a long time ago, though :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Security, Risk and Reward
The closer you come to an NPC settlement, the faster the NPCs can respond to hostile actions taken against you. The NPCs establish a zone of hexes around each NPC settlement creating an area of relative safety (compared to the uncontrolled wilderness). In the hexes containing and immediately adjacent to the NPC settlement, magical effects make it impossible for one character to attack another unless the characters are in war—warfare being a future blog topic of some length!
Outside this immediate zone of total safety, the NPCs of the settlement will respond with a system we are calling "marshals." NPC marshals will respond to acts of aggression near their settlement by traveling to the location of the infraction and killing the aggressor. Because the marshals are dispatched from specific locations, their time to reach the site of the conflict will depend on how far away the fight is from the marshals' barracks.That was a long time ago, though :)
This was reiterated in the V-Blog and or its corresponding thread, so it is safe to assume that it remains as such.
It also means that those response times are predictable, which is a double edged sword for all parties concerned in traveling with or without goods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as the comment, from a personal and military standpoint as a Staff NCO for over 3+ years, Andius's line of reasoning makes tactical and logistical sense for the most part.
I agree with you, it's sound reasoning, if you accept the premises. However, I don't agree with the premise that the Southeast area will be a pit of evil, for a couple of reasons.
One, Goblinworks wants players to be the main influences in the game, not PvE content. I do not believe that the NPC towns will be such huge influences on the overall alignment that players will be unable to outweigh them, especially at such a large remove from either town.
Two, OE will be many months after EE, during much of which there is no Fort Riverwatch. Initially, all new unaffiliated players, including Good-aligned ones, will start at one of the two neutral NPC towns of Fort Inevitable and Thornkeep. And those months are ample time for those so inclined to create their own area of good-aligned influence.
In conclusion, I strongly disagree with the premise that there's any significant predetermined "theography" to the map that might hinder the long-term prospects of an organization, unless they decide to settle immediately beside one of the NPC towns. The game is meant to be a sandbox, the map will become what we the players make of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would appear corners are a good option for a Big-Small-Town in EE of which there appears to be 3. I mean you can cover a border and access within that border becomes much easier to avoid having to thrash out political situations with other settlements.
Parameters around locals can be assessed, but the biggest potential variable is the political situation of other settlements/neighbours nearby. So that is probably the next criteria after the 3 Big-Small-Towns avoid a face-off with either of the other.
What you want is good relations nearby and to try your pvp skills on more distant settlements to "influence" then with trade-routes further afield as well as blooding the troops.
I'd also guess further away from NPC hexes allows more choice in direction to expand which becomes more important later when relatively more settlements need more hexes and their spheres of influence start clashing.
What I like about the North is to be inbetween the mountains and the plains that could work well. It does not seem like the river will be significant for a few years at least ie boats so that makes the West appear less interesting to inhabit than the East by comparison unless access to the land over the river somehow becomes possible via bottlenecks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...response times are predictable...
Which leads directly to the well-used trope of bank robberies in all media: "We've got three minutes on the clock! Move it!" There's no reason to suspect that we, as players, won't be experimenting with stopwatches and extensive rehearsals if GW fails to randomise responsiveness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope it's not random. I hope the guards have designated patrol routes, and respond depending on where they are. Part of banditry in protected hexes should be scouting out where the guards are.
Wouldn't merchants and travelers use the same tactic? If the guards move at a set rate, or are so predictable, what is their use? Why waste time to program them at all?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't merchants and travelers use the same tactic? If the guards move at a set rate, or are so predictable, what is their use? Why waste time to program them at all?I hope it's not random. I hope the guards have designated patrol routes, and respond depending on where they are. Part of banditry in protected hexes should be scouting out where the guards are.
Maybe merchants and travelers could disguise themselves as guards instead? :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't merchants and travelers use the same tactic? If the guards move at a set rate, or are so predictable, what is their use? Why waste time to program them at all?I hope it's not random. I hope the guards have designated patrol routes, and respond depending on where they are. Part of banditry in protected hexes should be scouting out where the guards are.
It all depends on how you set up the patrols and how fast they move. If you make it possible for a caravan to follow a patrol from Riverwatch to Fort I. then yes the system has no value.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as the comment, from a personal and military standpoint as a Staff NCO for over 3+ years, Andius's line of reasoning makes tactical and logistical sense for the most part.I agree with you, it's sound reasoning, if you accept the premises. However, I don't agree with the premise that the Southeast area will be a pit of evil, for a couple of reasons.
One, Goblinworks wants players to be the main influences in the game, not PvE content. I do not believe that the NPC towns will be such huge influences on the overall alignment that players will be unable to outweigh them, especially at such a large remove from either town.
Two, OE will be many months after EE, during much of which there is no Fort Riverwatch. Initially, all new unaffiliated players, including Good-aligned ones, will start at one of the two neutral NPC towns of Fort Inevitable and Thornkeep. And those months are ample time for those so inclined to create their own area of good-aligned influence.
In conclusion, I strongly disagree with the premise that there's any significant predetermined "theography" to the map that might hinder the long-term prospects of an organization, unless they decide to settle immediately beside one of the NPC towns. The game is meant to be a sandbox, the map will become what we the players make of it.
That works if you are playing the short game. It is less likely in the long game. Again, all a matter of opinion at this point.
The Devs could make Riverwatch LE, Inevitable CG, and Thornkeep NG and throw us all out of wack.
My understanding is that Inevitable will be LN leaning evil, Thornkeep will be CN, and Riverwatch NG.
In the long game, you would be fairly far away from where most NG players would likely start. The inability to swell your ranks when others can may lead to downfall. My opinion, I'm not saying it will or won't happen, but I think by choosing that location, not layout, that they've sold themselves short in that department.
Time will tell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Valkenr
Agreed, My point was also that you make the Marshals useless if either bandits or frequent travelers can figure out when/where/how long response times are. There has to be some kind of randomness or it becomes an equation to beat. Lol, even then if there isn't enough "random" to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're right. :(This is Andius' thread for his planned Company/Settlement. Lets be gentlemen and leave it on subject.
Thanks
Xeen
Oh great, is Xeen suggesting to people that we be polite and respectful of the OP's intention?
Is today opposite day?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In regards to whether or not the npc settlements will have much affect on the surrounding settlements
I am just wondering if the NPC settlements will enforce the roads based on their alignment and have set toggles like the PC ones
Example:
Thornkeep being CN will not let you SAD in their area but doesn't really care if you do it somewhere else even along the roads, but the LG NPC settlement does care.
So being on the road protects against random attacks from both settlements but SAD protection only becomes viable the closer you are to the LG NPC settlement
Or the same type of comparison with someone with the Heinous flag traveling along the road of a LE NPC town vs LG NPC town
(just a random thought, i may be way off base)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're right. :(This is Andius' thread for his planned Company/Settlement. Lets be gentlemen and leave it on subject.
Thanks
XeenOh great, is Xeen suggesting to people that we be polite and respectful of the OP's intention?
Is today opposite day?
Actually I had nothing to say that would be any more constructive. And yes it IS opposite day... ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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One, Goblinworks wants players to be the main influences in the game, not PvE content. I do not believe that the NPC towns will be such huge influences on the overall alignment that players will be unable to outweigh them, especially at such a large remove from either town.
I'm dealing with what we actually know. Not vague statements that you hang on a bulletin board like "Players will be the main influence."
The three starter towns announced thus far have set alignments and are not conquerable.
I find it incredibly unlikely players will frequently choose towns that do not match the alignment of their desired playstyle if that is even possible.
It is the PLAYERS flowing out of these towns that will affect the culture of the area around them. And the PvE available within them is going to affect the players that choose to reside there.
Anyone who believes they can fight this trend is living in a delusion which will collapse the moment they are forced to actually back up their bold words and bulletin board phrases in-game.
Two, OE will be many months after EE, during much of which there is no Fort Riverwatch. Initially, all new unaffiliated players, including Good-aligned ones, will start at one of the two neutral NPC towns of Fort Inevitable and Thornkeep. And those months are ample time for those so inclined to create their own area of good-aligned influence.
Up to 18 months if Riverwatch is the absolute last part of the OE map released. Wont it suck to have the settlement you've been building for 18 months get overwhelmed when the OE rush of recruits are all on the opposite side of the map from you?
In conclusion, I strongly disagree with the premise that there's any significant predetermined "theography" to the map that might hinder the long-term prospects of an organization, unless they decide to settle immediately beside one of the NPC towns. The game is meant to be a sandbox, the map will become what we the players make of it.
I suggest you hang that one on a bulletin board too. Such a shiny phrase. Reality is this game was originally described as a "sand-park" and you're just going to have to learn to work with the conditions GW sets up around the map to make things interesting. If they hadn't intended for certain playstyles to be more or less viable in certain parts of the map they wouldn't have given the starter towns alignment. What they didn't give us is hard borders, and that's the sand we have to build our castles with. It's just not the right kind of sand you're going to need for the castle you are trying to build.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius
I am not contradicting you directly, but I do have a few questions:
1) Do you honestly expect any one settlement to hold their initial landrush settlement past 6-10 months after OE? This is their starter settlement after all and they will be the test dummies when it comes to finding out what works and what doesn't. It will take time to figure out the "optimal build" for a settlement.
2) Do you believe you have enough time to begin recruiting anew with a new faction in order to participate in the second landrush?
3) Wouldn't it be more constructive to shoulder the "burden" that their settlement selection caused and aid them from the inside than it would to publicly criticize them and try to make a rival settlement that will draw away from their recruiting base?
-Concerned Community Friend-
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they hadn't intended for certain playstyles to be more or less viable in certain parts of the map they wouldn't have given the starter towns alignment
Yeah, just like if God hadn't intended fish to play the trumpet, he wouldn't have given them lips.*
There are plenty of other possible reasons for alignments in starter towns. If you can find one shred of evidence to back your claim up, I'll reassess. Until then, it's all just your projection.
*ok - not exactly why I believe fish have lips, but I'm sure you take my point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're right. :(This is Andius' thread for his planned Company/Settlement. Lets be gentlemen and leave it on subject.
Thanks
XeenOh great, is Xeen suggesting to people that we be polite and respectful of the OP's intention?
Is today opposite day?
Only concerning that we be on topic. I could care less if you are respectful. Respect is earned and burned, but at least allow the guy to do the recruiting he wishes to do.