Whether they succeed or fail IS on them.
I set up the scenario, and then let it play out.
"You all have some decisions to make. How will you pull the silver lining out of this? How will you turn this defeat into a victory?"
^That is not what I'm supposed to be doing.
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The GM is the largest variable in how difficult and deadly the game can be. Either through misapplication during play, or intentional adjustment of play. I choose not to be too harsh, because character death tends to derail games without methods of recovery. But random chance and player choices still lead that way.
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Most players I've asked say that if their PC has to go down they want it to be story-enhancing. They don't want to die; they want a death scene.
I've sometimes contemplated adding a 'mark of death' rule. If the dice say a character dies a humiliating death when he deserved a heroic death, I'd hand him a token - an Ace of Spades, perhaps - and it would represent inescapable doom. In the game, he'd be unconscious. Then, later, I'd call in the death token, so (for example) when fighting the boss he'd take a critical hit or fail a key saving throw.
I've just been running AP's lately.
Serpent Skull
Death due to smart/mean encounter design in the first book via ghoul cleric level 3-4
Death due to a X3 critical hit level 6
Death due to a high level destruction spell in the final encounter level 16
Reign of Winter
No PC deaths
Shattered Star
No PC deaths so far (Book 3)
But yeah for the most part I do not favor random character death, as replacement characters never feel the same and are usually more powerful.
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Whether they succeed or fail IS on them.
I set up the scenario, and then let it play out.
"You all have some decisions to make. How will you pull the silver lining out of this? How will you turn this defeat into a victory?"
^That is not what I'm supposed to be doing.
And how you set up the scenario has no effect at all on whether they succeed or fail?
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm talking about, which was in reference to Mark Hoover's post.
My set-up has an effect on the outcome.
Their choices have an effect on the outcome.
The dice have an effect on the outcome.
However, once I have set-up the encounter, I should have no further input on how the encounter goes on their end. The players make choices, I make choices for the NPCs, and that's the extent of it.
Helping the PCs "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat" is not something I should be doing as a GM. I shouldn't be changing the scenario or fudging dice rolls mid encounter to make sure the PCs win.
Changing how the NPCs act, maybe, as long as it makes sense. I can see enemies getting cocky if they drop a PC and making mistakes.
But changing stats and results to facilitate a victory? Nah.
The dice have a mind of their own. You roll some dice, the PC dies; everyone shrugs. Luck didn't go their way right?
Name me one story, movie, tv show, song or even a youtube video of a game session where the heroes of said media opened a door, a goblin got a lucky shot and one or more of the protagonists died and you went "Man! That was awesome!"
The Walking Dead, Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones, Malazan Book of the Fallen, et al are popular stories where death can strike any character at any time.
{. . .}
As I recall (I didn't see the whole thing) The Shining also did this. (But I DID see all of The Shinning, which also did this, as did Time and Punishment . . . to the same character, no less.)
Also, this reminds me of a legendary DM (1st Edition AD&D) back in the late 1970s/early 1980s (whose day job was professor at Georgia Tech, of all things, and whom fortunately I never played under myself, but knew several people who did). This DM liked to have random encounters such as a carnivorous ape coming into the party's camp at night, pick up some random character, and rip the poor character in half. This DM expected the corresponding player to hand in the character sheet, which he would rip in half. That was an EEeeeevvviiiiillll DM . . . for some reason, moderately popular, though. Another DM got him back when he was a player, by polymorphing his character into a small Black Dragon after he got separated from the rest of the party without his realizing that he'd been polymorphed, and then having the rest of the party encounter him when he was next to a big Black Dragon, and the rest of the party unloaded EVERYTHING on the Dragons, with the puzzlement about the big Black Dragon going down in round 1 only tipping him off to what had happened as he went down to the followup barrage in round 2.
Mind you in this kind of high fantasy death isn't always death. In higher level games death is only a speed bump. Killing characters like that doesn't really count.
Which makes death even more pointless, cheap, and less emotional.
Then why not just get knocked out?
I have had at least three TPK. I have a player who's character died a lot. I am taking every game at least once per a game. The character had died about 20 times over the course of 7 levels.
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I have had at least three TPK. I have a player who's character died a lot. I am taking every game at least once per a game. The character had died about 20 times over the course of 7 levels.
Were they bards?
We've had three times where a GM had to save us from killing a/the PCs.
The first was pure luck. A skogre landed a crit on a barabarian and took him from full health to one hit point away from death once the rage bonus was gone and he failed his constitution check. Our GM set him to -3 HP instead to give him more time.
The second was a case of our GM not reading the full page. After causing an undead apocalypse by destroying an organ the GM wanted a run encounter and threw a Ravener at us without knowing about Cowering Fear which causes people to cower if they fail against Frightful Presence. She pulled some divine intervention and we were able to get out of dodge.
The last was a mix of luck and the GM underestimating a monster. Bog Standard Orcs(TM) were invading a village we just ran into. They kept hitting us and hard enough to knock out a party member per round. In fact both the alchemist and the inquisitor were hit for 11 HP (they had a max of 10HP) and if that wasn't enough the Investigator who had 9 HP got critted to 2 HP from death (she made her check thanks to inspiration.) The GM had to send in a lot more guards to save us (one of which did most of the damage and got promoted to captain.)
In general, at my table we'll let you die if you are being a total idiot. If a death was a severe miscalculation on the GM's part or the dice being severely antagonistic to you, we'll cut you a break.
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Two deaths total. The first due to my mistake as a first time GM("Yeah this looks balanced!"), the second due to an unlucky greataxe crit to the only available target in a bottleneck situation.
That one blasphemy was a seriously close call though. Narrowly(and awesomely) avoided potential TPK situation.
I forgot to mention this before but the Inquisitor in the last encounter had 20 AC at level 1.
I used to be, "Characters do not die unless they insist on being REALLY stupid."
Meaning unless the player is making critical errors him/herself that they should know better by the time they are at the level of play they are at (accommodate newbies, be harder on veterans.)
I changed that when I started Pathfinder. I decided I was going to play enemies and NPC's more realistic to true life - unless they were stupid or deranged/fanatic, they valued their own life; and unless they were stupid or deranged, they would finish off a PC whenever they got the chance and the situation allowed for it.
Almost killed the gunslinger in the party that way on the second session.
I don’t believe players should have to optimize their characters to survive the game; they should be able to bring a poorly optimized completely wacky build to the table and have fun. I consider it my job to adjust the adventure so that this character can still be the hero. A group of 10 year old boys playing in their first game ever playing fighters with high charisma and intelligent scores should still be able to have a great time.
This is more-or-less my style—I adjust encounters to suit the PCs, so if the party is underpowered, the encounters will be a bit easier.
I consider my number one job as a GM to be to ensure that the players have fun. This is a pretty open ended task however, what is fun to one person may not be fun to another. My experience has been that most people like to be challenged but don’t like their characters to die. So when I GM I try to challenge the characters as much as possible without killing them. This can mean rolling behind a screen at critical junctures to ensure I don’t kill someone if things are tight. For the most part I consider it a personal failure if a player character dies (with some exceptions, see below).
This is crazy, though. Challenge comes from the possibility of failure. Besides, we wouldn't have resurrection if PCs weren't supposed to die sometimes.
As for my kill rate, in the one campaign I currently run, we've had about 5 deaths. We're on the fourth installment of Age of Worms, and the party is now 7th level.
One death took place due to a PC screwing up, two took place due to crits, and the other two were just PCs in bad situations like gangs of invisible stalkers or an evil cleric being too busy to redirect his spiritual weapon.
Of the five dead, two were killed by critical hits (both in the same encounter). It happens. Of those that died, three were brought back, one chose to stay dead, and one was too low-level at the time, so nobody could afford a reincarnate.
Basically, I run my fights as a challenge just as important as the roleplay. The players enjoy the challenge (though sometimes it does get a bit arms racey with optimization, I'll admit). The first death I mentioned took place in the second encounter of the campaign**, and it made the tone very clear: Roll smart or roll up.
Age of Worms is a harsh, old-school sort of adventure path. I try to stay true to the flavor. It's no fun if the PCs aren't challenged, and if you don't let a PC die every now and then, the challenge dies quick. If there's not at least one encounter per installment that threatens someone's life, I'm disappointed. The suspense is half the fun. Death isn't a setback, it's an opportunity—closing one book and opening another. Players without that mindset will struggle in most of my games.
In short, I never seek out a death, but I always leave the possibility open. Dangerous encounters and honest dice rolls.
*Recently, the priestess had died. Her player decided to play an existing NPC investigator, but was unwilling to give him a couple extra levels to balance him with the rest.
**I actually did offer the player a chance to fudge the death, in light of the circumstances. He said no, and took the dice as they landed.
If I get joy from killing PCs and thus ruining the players' fun, I am a bad GM.
If I do not even get joy from it and just kill them anyway to obey rules and rolls, why keep on GMing ?
Hee! As long as you internalize your joy, those silly players never need to know about it. ;)
And don't forget that restoration can only be used once a week on a character so unless High level resurrections take place the raised PC is at least a week at -1 level.
And this week matters more than people think, since raise deads can often take place in the middle of adventurers following a forced withdrawal (this happens generally whenever a PC dies before the end boss). They don't have a week; they need to get back and finish the job!
Suddenly you're a primed group of military commandos but the GM strikes back with more diverse monsters.Whoa!
Now you're golf-bagging weaponry to deal with DR, Flying and other defenses.
DR? Flying?
Your GM puts in some deadly puzzles, social encounters with demigod level forces
Deadly puzzles? Tea parties with Malcanthet and the Fifth Horseman? That game sounds kickass! Sign me up!
By the way, death can be cheap and still have an emotional impact. Just try reading Homestuck.
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In Pathfinder, I've only had a few deaths of PCs to be honest. They were at low levels as well. At higher levels the fights can be dangerous and scary for PCs, but they're rarely fatal. The trick is getting them tense enough that players are working to prevent PC death while still able to achieve objectives too. Forcing players to work as a team in order for everyone to survive and still win.
In 5th ed I've killed a few already. Some of it was learning the new system, and some of it was the module as written. Now that my fith ed group has more time under their belt, I believe most of those deaths would have been avoided.
While ever the threat is there though, the game is fun.
I don't seek to kill PC's as it's a dangerous mindset - Rpgs are for friends having fun. I will destroy your PC if it happens though. I've always run homebrews. No pf ap's.
The last campaign arc had 3 PCs and 1 cohort die. That arc was insane and high level. 3 deaths occurred trying to stop the other PC from giving birth to "Timat's baby". The other death was when the arc had a battle between Tiamat and Bahamut aspects and two sides of PCs ending a friendly but in-game vicious rivalry, and that PC died at least 3 times and was breath of lifed thrice.
Before that, I had one PC die in a fight (druid actually) because the enemies were more durable than I intended. The Paladin deliberately healed the enemies because they were non magically brainwashed children trained with greatswords and enchanted with mass builds strength and mass enlarge covered by two Barghests.
Looking back, probably 25-35% of deaths were due to PvP, all of which was in good fun between the happy players (I personally am burned out from running treacherous parties even if they have fun).
Other notable deaths in 3.5:
A fire mage fighting moon rats who held a towns grain supply hostage used fire in a grain silo (after warnings) and blew up another PC (nicknamed Dusty after death ; Ashes was the nickname of a murdered NPC carried around in an Urn). That fire mage was executed for destroying the towns grain supply (drawn and quartered; when his character was pulled apart, he died in a flash of light hence the character's part death Nick name Flash).
My Skull and Shackles game had quite a few character deaths, with three in the first book alone and 7-8 by the time the campaign fizzled out in book 4. I think the key is to tell the players up front if you're not going to hold back when it comes to lethality in a particular campaign.
0.0 repeating of course
I don't know, I've lost count over the years/editions/systems. 100s.
Deaths that you recover from don't count btw.
I simply let the dice fall as they may. That randomness IS the point of rolling.
In my current campaign (Wich is mostly Skull & Shackles) I've killed 7 pcs.
Actually I've killed 9 - but like I said, deaths you recover from don't count.
Those 7 kills:
* 2 of the deaths happened prior to the pirate portion of the adv starting as one guy was searching for the right pc to play.
* 1 death happened once a player realized her character just wouldn't work in a pirate setting. So she acted as a lightning rod for Mr.Pluggs anger throughout book 1.
* Later on, playing Sandara she got killed in an as-yet unrecoverable way.
* 2 PCS died during the mutiny.
* And in the last session 1 player got killed by a colossal sea anemone while trying to breach Harrigans fort.
My style as a GM, is to neither seek to kill PCs nor to do anything to keep'em alive. It's up to the players and how the die fall. I tend to be more simulationist, PCs are not heroes, they are everyday people that get pulled into larger than life events in my approach as a GM. This gets a bit frustrating for me, considering most groups I've run have an aversion to running away or surrendering if things start to go against them - whether it's due to bad choices on their part or the die are not falling favorably for them.
All in all, character death happen in my games, probably 3 or 4 character deaths throughout the course of a campaign. I have had 3 sessions where TPKs occurred. Only one of which where I said to them, as they contemplated what happened, "And then you wake up." The other two they made bad choices, for which I admittedly have no mercy. Make a bad choice, you deal with consequences. I do get concerned that it's a bit harsh, but my groups come back for more, so I either run a good game, or run a game that suits their expectations.
TPK (6 characters) in Midnight. Roaming pack of undead while they were camping.
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Normally very rarely. I had a TPK in the Sunken Citadel years ago and that has been the only one of those. I've had a few temporary deaths as well over the years. But funnily enough, I murdered a PC last night in PbP - an NPC was holding a helpless PC hostage and demanding the other PCs surrendered. They didn't - or didn't do it fast enough for my vicious and impatient NPC. The first PC death in absolute ages. I feel a bit weird now.
Also, roleplaying setbacks are all well and good, but death is one of the best setbacks there is. Every player hates dying, while many players might regard "setbacks" as just more opportunities for roleplaying. I know I would.
And that can be good, don't get me wrong. But if they aren't motivated to really want to avoid something, the combat inevitably loses some of its edge. That's why death keeps combat exciting—it's an end, albeit generally a temporary one, and most players avoid it like the plague.
Alright, I'm game to learn a bit. What other techniques do you employ? I feel that death is the best motivator (though others can work), but maybe there are some good alternatives.
I feel that death is the best motivator (though others can work), but maybe there are some good alternatives.What do power gamers hate most of all?
Playing a character without gear.
Hm. Not bad. Be a good risk to fighting thieves, pirates and rust monsters.
So, that makes two "put the fear of GM in their hearts" tactics. Already we've doubled our options.
Killed four in my first runthrough of Savage Tide, one of which got raised, the others replaced.
There's been eight or so deaths, at least one per character, in my current Kingmaker game. Reincarnate was available early on, however, and the players have since moved on to raise dead and resurrection.
Like some others I've seen, I tend to either provide an NPC way out of death at low levels or play softball until the PCs can do it themselves, at which point the gloves come off.
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For me it varies with the game system.
In AD&D (1st/2nd) the death rate was "once in a while" to full tpks. The most recent was a long time ago (was a small party). I dropped the system in 2003 (what a big mistake) and I only started running it again so we will see how things go in the future.
Pathfinder - never. Just isn't a lethal game if players cover their angles. My players even admitted to me that PF was "AD&D" on training wheels with a tremendous amount of power and options (which is also a form of power) that makes it almost impossible to die - even with me making raise dead/resurrection more difficult (has to be a quest). Never needed it. That of course may change if I start to run some Frog God/Necromancer games for PF (if I ever run it again). If I used these products for AD&D 2e - I know there will be deaths.
Gamma World - also a "once in a while" death rate. Usually due to a miscalculation on the part of the player or just not taking the proper precautions. Sometimes it was just taking on more than you can handle (Warbot, a squad of Knights of Genetic Purity, etc).
I have re-written (and in the process of finishing) the 3rd ed (1985 version) of GW, so I will see how it goes. The game feels a little more deadly and I am running another session tonight (to test the rules) so we will see. I have a feeling that a few players may cash in if the are not careful. And since it is a re-imagined system, I will be placing more reminders about rest, healing rates and exerting too much power for mutations until they get the hang of the new system.
Chill - Characters generally do not survive past their 3rd mission. This game also results in more than a few TPKs - in one case (and this was sad) the group fought an undead creature that had them all wounded, KO'd and just about beaten with one player left and able to fight. He had brought the creature down - but was to afraid to finish it off. I made the other players watch in silence. Well, eventually the creature roused again and beat him (still alive). It then proceeded to bury all them alive in the grave they were supposed to put it in to destroy it. I was running two full Chill groups simultaneously on two different missions, one of the players lost a long running character - they never told the other group of players what happened to them for several years IRL. They just disappeared - the whole team. By far the most lethal game I run.
Call of Cthulhu - Players were overly cautious in this game. Few deaths, more instances of going insane (which can be a loss of character if its permanent).
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And to the people who say death doesn't matter - I say it depends on how you handle it.
I have gone from "you're out till the next scenario/adventure" to "make up a brand new character, and I will find a way to bring him in when it makes sense" - which can be several sessions down the line. So death is something to avoid in our group.
I sometimes run NPCs with the option for players to take them over (so they can still play). They can then own the NPC (has happened) or make a new guy and switch over to that when it makes sense. I don't see this as much of a punishment as just practicality. A PC isn't going to drop out of the sky and into the group because that player had bad luck/made a bad call. They get back in when it works for the game and if it's already near the end of the scenario that option is not on the table, the adventure/mission is over for them.
There are no clone PCs - if your guy bites the bullet, make up a brand new character that is different and not "Gene Eric the Cleric #2".
One thing I do provide for characters that die - if it was a good or reasonable death they get a little reward or bonus for their next character. If it was heroic, the reward or bonus is even greater.
If it was a stupid/idiotic death, then they just get to make a new character and play with the other players making jokes and giving them grief till the new PC is established.
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Eh.
If I wanted to be scary, I'd make liberal use of sunder.
Costs more then death itself.
That of course may change if I start to run some Frog God/Necromancer games for PF (if I ever run it again). If I used these products for AD&D 2e - .
If you don't play PF, why are you here?