| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I understand. I have a friend from college, we'll call him.....Jack.
Jack would complain that everyone else's character at the table was broken. My PC was broken because of his high defenses. The druid was broken, the psion was broken, the paladin and her mount were broken.
So, the question is, what is the truth? Were all of our characters broken, or was Jack's character just underwhelming?
Jack's character could have fit right in, or even been a shining star, in a different group. It is all just relative.
And that doesn't even include people making very concept focused builds that intentionally have worse mechanics. I had someone playing a traveling merchant once.
True story, the only character I've ever asked to remake by a GM was not a Druid, Psion or caster of any sort. It was a Combat Trapsmith (3.5 PRC) who focused on high AC and feats that allowed to avoid being targeted like Fade Into Violence. Powerful? Not in the slightest. Able to hide behind the Duskblade and say "He did it"? Absolutely.
I found that part out when I said being in a party with such characters kills any fun I have when they can 1-shot a creature of their CR.You must hate low levels then if you dislike things being one shot.Actually, I much enjoy the low levels over the high levels. And amazingly I have never had anything 1-shot before level 4 that was an equal CR, even a paladin smiting a demon or undead. They usually end up lasting 2 rounds, which I am fine with as it lets everyone get to do at least one thing.
And mythic makes it a bit worse, but thankfully those rules aren't used much (just in my WotR game I am playing in, which has definitely turned me off mythic completely, past 1 or 2 tiers).
Really? My standard greatsword wielding, power attacking barbarian didn't fail to kill anything in a single hit until my 6th or 7th pfs game. It's pretty easy to crank out 20+ damage per hit on a two hander at low levels even without capping your strength.
Lets see... 7 (average damage from a greatsword)+6(4 strengthx1.5)= 13, not quite a one-shot for CR 1 creatures with their average of 15 HP. Barbarian Rage or 2-handed Power Attack adds 3 points of damage and gets you to a clean average oneshot.
I'd like to hear an explanation of your ability to reliably kill cr 2-5 creatures (before exceeding those CRs of course) with a single hit given their ramping HPs. To make it easy I'll post the average HP's so you don't need to look them up.
CR 1: 15
CR 2: 20
CR 3: 30
CR 4: 40
CR 5: 55And remember, you explicitly said in a single hit, getting two hits from a full attack with Haste doesn't count.
you ignored his use of power attack :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh my bad. Still, a two handed fighter archetype with power attack is adding double strength at lvl 3 on top of PA so that's a couple more plus 1 if its an enchanted great sword. 4th level he adds weapon spec for more and possibly one from strength if he was at say a 19 originally ( he said not capped) and 3 more from PA at bab+4. Note he said easy to do over 20ish damage also which he certainly can at this point.
I recommend building a PC geared towards having a lot of choices rather than doing one thing really well. A broadly designed character to be a "Man for All Seasons" is going to be good at a lot of things, but have a hard time taking the spotlight away from other characters.
Alternatively, play a character optimized to make OTHER characters better.
You can also make a strong character but not play it up to full power all the time - a barbarian who doesn't use rage, an inquisitor who doesn't use his bane ability. You can still bring it out in real emergencies, but the rest of the time you're not outshining the group.
Actually, fairly recently, I crafted a GMPC (due to player request/our gaming circumstance) who is a barbarian (with rage and all) who never goes into rage. See, he's a CG... tiefling. Who kind of... gets possessed... a lot... when he rages.
Thus he's very, very against going into rages and will do so only when there is no choice necessary. So far, no matter how dire, he's avoided doing so.
We shall see if he ever does in this game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree, finding the sweet spot between incompetent and overpowered can sometimes be difficult. (Note: I do not use an emotionally laden yet ill defined term like 'broken' since it means different things to different people.)
However, there are some things you can do.
- Don't play a damage dealer or a SoD caster. If you buff allies and/or debuff enemies, you will rarely be called overpowered even if you made the encounter easy because you didn't kill or take out anything.
- Build for 2 combat roles rather than just one.
- Use combat maneuvers so others can get the kill.
- Use the 'wrong' race/class combo for your concept. Then still optimize the heck out of it. EX: Dwarf fey bloodline sorcerer, going for blaster.
- Talk to others in the party about their build. If you are both doing the same/similar role, are your totals much higher than his?
- If Jimmy-Joe-Bob is always the low powered guy in the group, see if maybe he wants some help building his character.
- Build an extra role into your class that normally isn't there. EX: Fighter or barbarian that wants to be party face. Take skill focus, raise cha, raise int enough to put points into sense motive, bluff, and diplomacy. Since cha is high, take Eldritch Heritage.
- Avoid the things known to peeve many GMS. Rage-lance-pounce, flesh-man synthesist, slumber witch, archer paladin, etc...
--------------------------------------------------
You can also make a strong character but not play it up to full power all the time - a barbarian who doesn't use rage, an inquisitor who doesn't use his bane ability. You can still bring it out in real emergencies, but the rest of the time you're not outshining the group.
Actually, this bothers me more than a way over powered character. Remember the trash talking as kids? Wasn't "I let you win" one of the most common insults? And wasn't it demoralizing when you found it to be true?
Well, this is kinda the same thing. Yeah, I'm mister Bad-Ash. I can do just as good as you without any real effort. Oh, if things get rough, then I guess I can put in some real effort and save you again.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Falchion dice are less likely to roll off the table. ;)Falchions rock.But Nodachis are better.
Falchion dice are also more likely to crit you IRL.
Especially if you have a habit of being barefoot.
|
Think less about your character's build and more about your character's behavior. Players have the luxury of always choosing the best options. If the player lets them, then characters can be myopic, unfocused, compulsive, or just weird about certain things. If the character has emotional baggage/issues of some kind, it may point your build choices in directions that are interesting and entertaining for you regardless of their power level.
I think this needs some level of 3 things:
1. The GM needs to somewhat be on board with this. He/she needs to run a campaign that will respond to your character. Overpowered characters should be drawing attention and have consequences other than just fat loot. Not to stomp out good players, but to make it feel real. If the campaign just boils down to a tactical game, it's going to immediately amplify either a sub-par or overpowered PC. There needs to be focus on story, NPC interaction, and above all else: PC motivations in the story. If the focus is on combat alone, it's a tough line to walk if you just want "fun".
2. Try picking a PC theme and sticking with it to a T. Characters have beliefs, fears, and desires. This is where some of the archtypes and prestige classes can be fun, because you're picking them for the flavor, not the abilities and progression. This will also help you role-play better so you're making decisions that are what your character would make, not that you would make.
3. This is the hardest - but try harder to not care about the combat and tactics. I guess another way to say it is: If you want to have fun, think of something fun, then have your character do it. Don't just play the game and see if you end up having fun. Develop your character's character.
This all might sound cheesy, but if you give it a real try, it's fun. When I started playing with my wife, I was way too worried about the tactics and if she'd get through it. Then I realized there's so much more to the game and it's stuff she enjoys: story, characters, betrayal, plot twists. I end up turning a regular attack hit into a vivid description of her half-orc fighter splitting that beast in half and blood going everywhere. **The rules are just a guide to get you through the fun part.**
...
3. This is the hardest - but try harder to not care about the combat and tactics. I guess another way to say it is: If you want to have fun, think of something fun, then have your character do it. Don't just play the game and see if you end up having fun. Develop your character's character.
...
Wow. I understand what you are saying. However, most of the groups I've seen or been a part of for the past few years need the exact opposite advice.
They spend a fair amount of time complaining about how hard the combats are as written in the AP's. Most GM's I've talked to have to re-write the encounters as much tougher just to give the PC's a challenge.I've tried to nudge them along with suggestions and examples but they mostly insist on doing 'stupid crap cause it is in-character'
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...
3. This is the hardest - but try harder to not care about the combat and tactics. I guess another way to say it is: If you want to have fun, think of something fun, then have your character do it. Don't just play the game and see if you end up having fun. Develop your character's character.
...Wow. I understand what you are saying. However, most of the groups I've seen or been a part of for the past few years need the exact opposite advice.
They spend a fair amount of time complaining about how hard the combats are as written in the AP's. Most GM's I've talked to have to re-write the encounters as much tougher just to give the PC's a challenge.
I've tried to nudge them along with suggestions and examples but they mostly insist on doing 'stupid crap cause it is in-character'
Yeah, that's a good point. Careful who you give this advice too. Us 2nd edition players all had a group with someone who insisted on being a Kender and took it wuHAAAYYY too far. Always a group killer.
My experience, is the people saying "take this" and "don't take that", has been from a power gamer standpoint. And if you aren't optimizing the hell out of your character you are doing it wrong and having "badwrongfun", and don't you dare criticize those who do optimize the hell out of their characters. I found that part out when I said being in a party with such characters kills any fun I have when they can 1-shot a creature of their CR.
As for the healing patron for the witch... I haven't looked at the witch myself, but apparently making a healer is dumb and you should focus on doing as much damage as possible with as little effort as possible, or rendering your foes useless with status effects, and just poke all the PCs with a wand of CLW after combat.
Personally, if you want to play a witch with the healing patron, just go for it.
Or they are just steering you clear of trap choices and trying to make your guy atleast semi-viable so the guy who actually knows what he is doing doesn't have to be forced to play a gimped, boring, stupid character incapable of doing the most basic of things because you are too whiny about him being better than your horridly weak character... just saying... two sides to every coin...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, the biggest thing would be to sit down with your fellows and help them build their characters... Eventually you are going to get bored of playing hte support guy or the guy who sits back because everyone else sucks.
To make an analogy to a game I know VERY well, Magic: The Gathering, in the Cube format. In Cube, one guy (or a group of friends, or a store or whatever) have a giant box full of cards. The cards are split up (face down) like packs (each stack has the number of cards in a booster pack) and the game proceeds like a draft game (take one card you like, pass the stack, repeat until all cards are taken, then build a deck). Much like D&D, everyone more or less has the same tools (the Cube is set, so unlike with a real draft, you wont be seeing a guy win because he got lucky and got 4 boosters all with "Insert rediculous powerful draft card here") but hte guys who know deck building (i.e. theorycrafting) best will most usually win because he knows how to see past the "cool" factor and see what are things that actually work, and has the experience to know that, while that 8 drop creature looks stupid strong and powerful, if you are getting to turn 8 and you are not already winning, than you are losing.
The problem with this though, is that the guy who always wins will get bored because there is no challange, and they guy who is always losing will get frustrated (much like a guy with a well built character getting bored because the fights that challange him kill his weaker members and the guy who can't build a competent character get frustrated because the guy who can actually build is killing things easy). The best way to fix this is not to play weaker or make stupid moves (i.e. "making yourself a weaker character") but to teach the other guys how to make BETTER decks (i.e. characters). Once you teach the other guy how to think and give him some experience (i.e. games under his belt), he will start getting better and eventually meet and possibly beat you (making characters that can stand up to you).
Now I am not saying you should be all "OH YOU HAVE TO PLAY LIKE A POWERGAME OR YOUR WRONGBADFUN!!!!RAWR!!!!HFLHELKFJHELFJHLIU!H!!" and foaming from the mouth. What I am saying is teach how to make a CAPABLE character. Like, im sory but if your playing a Rogue/Cleric/Monk/Bard thing and taking Skill Focus (Profession) then you are doing something wrong and you have no room to complain...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or they are just steering you clear of trap choices and trying to make your guy atleast semi-viable so the guy who actually knows what he is doing doesn't have to be forced to play a gimped, boring, stupid character incapable of doing the most basic of things because you are too whiny about him being better than your horridly weak character... just saying... two sides to every coin...My experience, is the people saying "take this" and "don't take that", has been from a power gamer standpoint. And if you aren't optimizing the hell out of your character you are doing it wrong and having "badwrongfun", and don't you dare criticize those who do optimize the hell out of their characters. I found that part out when I said being in a party with such characters kills any fun I have when they can 1-shot a creature of their CR.
As for the healing patron for the witch... I haven't looked at the witch myself, but apparently making a healer is dumb and you should focus on doing as much damage as possible with as little effort as possible, or rendering your foes useless with status effects, and just poke all the PCs with a wand of CLW after combat.
Personally, if you want to play a witch with the healing patron, just go for it.
And you just proved my point in the quote.
I continue to question why I bother to post on these forums, when I always get replies like this to just about everything I say, especially when it comes to the "hallowed" optimization.
I continue to question why I bother to post on these forums, when I always get replies like this to just about everything I say, especially when it comes to the "hallowed" optimization.
Have you considered playing a game where you can't make mistakes or where people try to not be helpful at all?
I just . . . I don't know guys. Whenever I try to build a character that I want to play, and I look online, I just don't know if people saying "take this" or "don't take that" are from a power gamer standpoint, or if they will completely ruin my build and make my character insolvent. Some guy online hates the healing patron for the witch, and says it's horrible, but my party needs someone that can eventually get restoration, do I just scrap the idea and make a boring cleric, or is the healing patron 'sub-optimal but playable?'
Never do this, first off. If you come up with an interesting character concept, take whatever seems best fitted to building it up. Nobody you ask for advice is going to have the same understanding of exactly what you want out of it, and odds are against you just kind of lucking into something broken.
Past that, don't compete with the rest of your group. It's largely a philosophical issue, and may be a largely lost cause if everyone else you play with has a really competitive mindset, but you will always have a much better time if everyone at the table is rooting for each other to do crazy awesome things than if you're all competing to be the party's MVP.
One thing you really might want to try if you keep ending up over-optimized is going for support-focused characters. One of the most satisfying characters I ever played was a whip-focused bard. I don't think I ever personally dealt a single point of damage, but I was constantly setting the rest of the party up with massive bonuses by just tripping everything in the room, circling around to flank, casting grease constantly to leave things flatfooted and slip anyone free if they ever ended up grappled. It was really tactically satisfying, and I felt like I was making really significant contributions all the time, but nobody's toes were ever stepped on, the big melee type got plenty of personal glory, and I kinda got to piggy-back on that for helping set his crazier rounds up for him.
Or they are just steering you clear of trap choices and trying to make your guy atleast semi-viable so the guy who actually knows what he is doing doesn't have to be forced to play a gimped, boring, stupid character incapable of doing the most basic of things because you are too whiny about him being better than your horridly weak character... just saying... two sides to every coin...My experience, is the people saying "take this" and "don't take that", has been from a power gamer standpoint. And if you aren't optimizing the hell out of your character you are doing it wrong and having "badwrongfun", and don't you dare criticize those who do optimize the hell out of their characters. I found that part out when I said being in a party with such characters kills any fun I have when they can 1-shot a creature of their CR.
As for the healing patron for the witch... I haven't looked at the witch myself, but apparently making a healer is dumb and you should focus on doing as much damage as possible with as little effort as possible, or rendering your foes useless with status effects, and just poke all the PCs with a wand of CLW after combat.
Personally, if you want to play a witch with the healing patron, just go for it.
And you just proved my point in the quote.
I continue to question why I bother to post on these forums, when I always get replies like this to just about everything I say, especially when it comes to the "hallowed" optimization.
Where in my statement did I mention optimizing? Reading Comprehension is tech you know....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And you just proved my point in the quote.I continue to question why I bother to post on these forums, when I always get replies like this to just about everything I say, especially when it comes to the "hallowed" optimization.
Alas you missed his point. His Magic the Gathering analogy is pretty awesome.
Believe it or not, most games require a degree of competency from the character you make. This varies by DM, but in most cases, DMs build encounters to be challenging. If you try to do things you're not built to do well in combat, your presence in the group is essentially a DM Booster for CR. Which gets the party killed or ends up soaking more resources from the encounter than is expected which in turn drains more and more. If you try to do things you're not built to do well out of combat there are other consequences.
Now a DM can play around this, he can adjust the APL lower to compensate for the less effective character, but say in PFS, a module, an AP or a DM who makes a static adventure first and plays like a Referee, that character will likely be killed or get someone killed. There are CR appropriate challenges that will completely stomp an unoptimized party. There are also CR appropriate challenges that are more fitting for an unoptimized party. If you have a DM tweaking things to fit the group playstyle, a poorly made character isn't an issue.
Finally, what some people don't understand is that optimization is a vague term. Some people think it's min maxing by a different name which is dumping everything to beef your offense. Personally, I take it to mean making as effective a character possible with combat and out of combat measured. I optimize concepts. Some concepts aren't well supported by the system. The game punishes many many concepts. It doesn't take a genius to notice the systemic inclinations set. Healing is considered sub par because a creature is at full effectiveness whether at 100 HP or 1. It is a systemic truth that healing is incredibly outpaced by damage unless you optimize heavily into it. It is also a systemic truth that healing should only be used in the event where the next amount of damage may prevent your next action because damage outpaces healing by so much.
1. You don't like optimization.
2. Healing can't keep pace with damage without optimization.
Ergo, I recommend you don't actively heal in combat unless it is to prevent someone from going down and not being able to take their action.
Now all that said. If you are selecting the Healing Patron to bring restorations to the group, awesome. Patrons are literally just for adding some utility to the Witch's rather lackluster spell list. You want that utility to be able to fix bad stuff. That's a perfectly reasonable option. Remove Fear is a solid first level spell too!
Consider the Healing Hex carefully. For some parties it amounts to a few more spell slots of healing. As HP totals get higher it becomes a lot less useful compared to a CLW wand so if your DM lets you retrain the option at a later point that'd be solid.
As far as actually healing goes, Witches aren't great at it. Unlike a Cleric, you can't maintain spell versatility by being able to drop spells for cures at the end of the day to patch people up. It's quite painful having to choose between say having Ill Omen or a Cure Light Wounds spell. It's pretty difficult to gauge how much healing you'll need day by day. The wand option is good because having it on your list will make it so you wont need UMD and let you have more fun with your spell slots.
As far as actually healing goes, Witches aren't great at it. Unlike a Cleric, you can't maintain spell versatility by being able to drop spells for cures at the end of the day to patch people up. It's quite painful having to choose between say having Ill Omen or a Cure Light Wounds spell. It's pretty difficult to gauge how much healing you'll need day by day. The wand option is good because having it on your list will make it so you wont need UMD and let you have more fun with your spell slots.
Well, there is the Hedge Witch if you want to be able to spontaneously convert your spells into cures.
As far as actually healing goes, Witches aren't great at it. Unlike a Cleric, you can't maintain spell versatility by being able to drop spells for cures at the end of the day to patch people up. It's quite painful having to choose between say having Ill Omen or a Cure Light Wounds spell. It's pretty difficult to gauge how much healing you'll need day by day. The wand option is good because having it on your list will make it so you wont need UMD and let you have more fun with your spell slots.Well, there is the Hedge Witch if you want to be able to spontaneously convert your spells into cures.
Then I highly recommend that option if hes looking to take the role of the Cleric for the party. The ability to drop spells for spontaneous cures is a level of versatility and ease of play option that really can't be rated high enough.
Though having the wand will go a long way in saving resources. I'd take both.
I haven't played a witch as I'm usually in the Cleric slot so this is a really interesting option that I might consider when picking my next character for a group. I don't like Oracles since they have to burn Spells Known to get status removal so having a more castery option than Cleric is really cool.
A healing focused witch sounds like a good option for avoiding pulling focus from the party. You can battlefield control well and debuff like crazy, but the rest of the party actually get the kills. In a lot of groups doing damage and getting kills are perceived as "winning", thus the rest of the party will see you as a facilitator rather than a rival.
Ditto with support characters who buff the party. You may be essential to victory and enable the rest of the party to do complete their tasks, but because you haven't hit someone with a big sword or fireball it's okay. If you're optimized to hell no-one will care, because you don't hog the limelight.
I can understand the idea of restraint, but an uber powerful PC who is obviously holding back can be almost as annoying as one who just cuts loose and destroys everything. There can be something patronizing about Mr. Uber “allowing” you to kill some monsters. It can be even worse if the monsters kill you in a fight Uber was slacking off in or nearly kill you only to have him step in and save you like some kind of Deus ex Machina. Perhaps I’ve just seen too many DMPCs played this way. The DM beats the party down until all hope is lost, and then his DMPC stops playing around and levels the monsters.
@K177Y C47 - I find a lot of fun in taking oddball concepts and making them functional or even powerful, so I'm very much the type of player who might try to make a "Rogue/Cleric/Monk/Bard thing" (or maybe a Witch/Shadowdancer). There's still a reasonable chance that somebody would accuse my PC of being overpowered though. As folks have been saying, groups can really vary.