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Also, be kind to each other. We're all herefor funto demonize people who don't play the game in ways we approve of :-)
FTFY!
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Well, you're welcome to look at the various rebalancing changes that have happened in the past few years, and see in what realm they lie :)
Granted, I also believe that people overestimate what the average caster does in actual play as opposed to theory crafting. Most people who aren't active on forums find that fireball, an unmodified one!, is the coolest. spell. evar!
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man cheapy it is hard to keep up on changes in the game and new releases because I take up a lot of my time with complaining about how I want things to be changed and what I think should be released
jeez
there are only so many hours in the day, man
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Profession soldier is wisdom basedProfession covers making money to support oneself and others in a profession; that is, Profession (Soldier) has nothing to do with tactics, leadership, or small-unit coordination. It instead covers things like requisitioning supplies, knowledge of military protocol/courtesy, maintaining relationships with the paymaster/quartermaster, and the other day-to-day aspects of soldiery.
Correction: Profession allows you to perform the duties and skills required of your job. Your skill at doing these things determines how much you are paid, and likely your rank in the military (as more adept people will promote themselves up the scale).
You're saying 'logistics' is the only part of being a soldier. No, tactics, planning, strategy, command, training and discipline are all part of it, too. Only actual combat is handled by other rules. But all the other stuff 'around' fighting, that isn't expressly handled by other skills, falls under Profession: Soldier. Remember, it's an Int Skill, not a Str or Cha skill.
A high level character fighter with few ranks in Profession: Soldier will be paid as a champion or merc, hired out for specific jobs and otherwise have very little to do. Someone with lots of ranks will likely be a General, Warlord, or Marshall, capable of training and leading great armies in battle, as well as kicking tail when needed.
But you don't need to be great at melee to be a great officer or general. You need to know what to do in the appropriate situation, and have the right tools for the job. Napoleon was probably an Expert with high Int and Professon: Soldier...surrounded by more competent fighters who couldn't match his skill, intelligence and charisma. And he was pretty good at his job.
I'd equate the Profession: SOldier skill as the difference between an Officer and a grunt. One guy knows how to fight for himself. The other knows how to lead a bunch of fighters properly, and make an army out of them.
==Aelryinth
Very tiny correction - Profession is Wis based, not Int based.
The thing is, tactics aren't really something you can reduce to a skill check. If you had to, I'd say they're more the province of Knowledge - partially because of the Intelligence basis of the skill, but mostly because Knowledge is already used to identify creatures, items, locations - and their weaknesses, secrets, strengths, and vulnerabilities. All of those things are essential to good tactical planning.
Knowledge will give you your possible options in a strategic situation, but if Profession is Wis, that's perfect - Wisdom will lead you to making the right choice.
Do you do the wise thing, or the intelligent thing? Genius is generally making the right move at the right time re: military. Innovation is something different. Knowledge: History lets you know what worked before, which is a facet of what might work now, but not necessarily. And just because you know history doesn't mean you know how a battle was fought...that really does fall under a Profession skill as a specific use of historical knowledge.
i.e. I know Gettysburg was a big battle taking place around the 4th of July, and I actually know some of the names of the key places since I visited it last year. But if you ask me what happened when, who moved what where and why, I'd be at a loss. I remember Pickett's charge happened on the last day, and that's about it.
I believe an opposed mass warfare check used to be opposed with a Sense mOtive....knowing the enemy commander and how he thought was half the battle. Basically opposed Wisdom skill checks.
==Aelryinth
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Back to the OP...
I'm actually playing one of my OP builds as of right now, and I'm having a blast doing it. Though, I do have to say that this character has most of the bases covered: Good to high AC without wearing tons of armor, multiple ways to damage an enemy, and when they arean't immune to what I typically do, I wreck face. Sometimes though, they are immune to my signature ability and I end up resorting to lesser methods, although said lesser methods are actually perfectly good in their own right.
As for outside of combat, I can do mostly everything not involving social skills (other than intimidate, nothing survives my intimidation). So, sleight of hand, stealth, disable device, and anything else you'd need outside of combat I have taken care of. In addition, I have ranks in every monster related knowledge.
So, yeah, people do play their theory crafted builds on occasion.
I seem to have missed nearly 100 posts since last posting. Going waaaaaaaay back to the Nature Oracle + Awakening shenanigans in the first page of the thread - it doesn't work.
Here's why, from d20pfsrd.com:
"This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2."
Unless you've some way of reliably reducing your own Intelligence to 2 and still casting Awaken, this exploit is a non-starter.
Even if you've got ability drain it can be restored with Restoration. Your GM would need to be asleep at the wheel to allow you to deliberately Intelligence drain yourself and allow this. Anyone attempting this would also at the very least need a willing accomplice, as an Intelligence 2 character can't understand language needed to cast the spell.
Even if you've got ability drain it can be restored with Restoration. Your GM would need to be asleep at the wheel to allow you to deliberately Intelligence drain yourself and allow this. Anyone attempting this would also at the very least need a willing accomplice, as an Intelligence 2 character can't understand language needed to cast the spell.
As you need to be level 20 for this to be a possibility, I don't really see it as a problem. To be honest I don't really see any of this as "cheesy" if used in the context of an incredibly mighty and near godlike being performing a costly and dangerous series of rituals to elevate himself to full godhood. Hell, you may have played a in a game with an antagonist like that; all this rules combo does it show you that it wasn't DM fiat after all.
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Even if you've got ability drain it can be restored with Restoration. Your GM would need to be asleep at the wheel to allow you to deliberately Intelligence drain yourself and allow this. Anyone attempting this would also at the very least need a willing accomplice, as an Intelligence 2 character can't understand language needed to cast the spell.
You do need a willing accomplice, for which Simulacrums are used. You can also use the Simulacrum to cast the spell on you once your INT is low enough. I like a Lorthact Simulacrum for the INT drain since it can drain 1 INT at a time. Also this has nothing to do with the GM being asleep at the wheel, since its all very legal.
There's a significant RAW/RAI dissonance here. Technically the rule system may permit you to cast Awaken on an Int-drained 20th level Nature Oracle who can later regain all drained stats with Restoration but as intended it's out the window. The rule-system is being broken to create a specific and overpowered single character.
GMs are there to exercise common sense in these situations. If a GM is permitting the game to be broken in this way then either they're too permissive (a possibility) or they're lining your God-Oracle up against something that will ROFLstomp you.
No, no my friend you've got it backwards or reversed. The rule system isn't being broken to create a specific and overpowered single character. Rather it is being *used* to create the most powerful character possible. If an uber build wasn't made using the rules, then what would be the point of it?
Also any build that wishes to be considered "uber" is likely going to offend some GMs. So saying X GM would ban Y or would have to be Z to allow Q is kind of a meaningless thing to bring up. Hell, I bet a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer who properly uses scrolls is going to be considered "op" by some. Heck some people ban Summoners and that class is never going to stand at the highest levels of "uberdom".
No, no my friend you've got it backwards or reversed. The rule system isn't being broken to create a specific and overpowered single character. Rather it is being *used* to create the most powerful character possible. If it wasn't made using the rules, then what would be the point?
Then it's an exploit instead. Point being, is the moment you talk about infinite anything you fly outside the point of playability as the rules can handle and is entirely outside the realm of practicality in realm other than where that is the intent.
No, no my friend you've got it backwards or reversed. The rule system isn't being broken to create a specific and overpowered single character. Rather it is being *used* to create the most powerful character possible. If it wasn't made using the rules, then what would be the point?Then it's an exploit instead. Point being, is the moment you talk about infinite anything you fly outside the point of playability as the rules can handle.
Why is infinity such a big deal? I mean casters can have infinite explosive runes, but much like infinite CHA it will take time to accumulate them. Or is Explosive Runes an exploit as well? The thing about calling something an exploit is that like I said above what is an exploit to one GM may not be to another. Trying to determine powerlevel based on what X or Y GM may allow is a waste of time, which is why going by RAW is preferred. Otherwise, we should just disregard the summoner class entirely I guess since some GMs ban it. Maybe some GMs ban Fighters, but disregard those. Heck why don't we just disregard everything eh?
Why is infinity such a big deal? I mean casters can have infinite explosive runes, but much like infinite CHA it will take time to accumulate them. Or is Explosive Runes an exploit as well? The thing about calling something an exploit is that like I said above what is an exploit to one GM may not be to another. Trying to determine powerlevel based on what X or Y GM may allow is a waste of time, which is why going by RAW is preferred. Otherwise, we should just disregard the summoner class entirely I guess since some GMs ban it. Maybe some GMs ban Fighters, but disregard those. Heck why don't we just disregard everything eh?No, no my friend you've got it backwards or reversed. The rule system isn't being broken to create a specific and overpowered single character. Rather it is being *used* to create the most powerful character possible. If it wasn't made using the rules, then what would be the point?Then it's an exploit instead. Point being, is the moment you talk about infinite anything you fly outside the point of playability as the rules can handle.
So just to be clear, you've actually played this ridiculous build in an actual GM's campaign? What did the GM say about it? Did he throw any encounters in to try to stop you?
So just to be clear, you've actually played this ridiculous build in an actual GM's campaign? What did the GM say about it? Did he throw any encounters in to try to stop you?Why is infinity such a big deal? I mean casters can have infinite explosive runes, but much like infinite CHA it will take time to accumulate them. Or is Explosive Runes an exploit as well? The thing about calling something an exploit is that like I said above what is an exploit to one GM may not be to another. Trying to determine powerlevel based on what X or Y GM may allow is a waste of time, which is why going by RAW is preferred. Otherwise, we should just disregard the summoner class entirely I guess since some GMs ban it. Maybe some GMs ban Fighters, but disregard those. Heck why don't we just disregard everything eh?No, no my friend you've got it backwards or reversed. The rule system isn't being broken to create a specific and overpowered single character. Rather it is being *used* to create the most powerful character possible. If it wasn't made using the rules, then what would be the point?Then it's an exploit instead. Point being, is the moment you talk about infinite anything you fly outside the point of playability as the rules can handle.
Go reread my posts and you'll have your answer.
Go reread my posts and you'll have your answer.So just to be clear, you've actually played this ridiculous build in an actual GM's campaign? What did the GM say about it? Did he throw any encounters in to try to stop you?Why is infinity such a big deal? I mean casters can have infinite explosive runes, but much like infinite CHA it will take time to accumulate them. Or is Explosive Runes an exploit as well? The thing about calling something an exploit is that like I said above what is an exploit to one GM may not be to another. Trying to determine powerlevel based on what X or Y GM may allow is a waste of time, which is why going by RAW is preferred. Otherwise, we should just disregard the summoner class entirely I guess since some GMs ban it. Maybe some GMs ban Fighters, but disregard those. Heck why don't we just disregard everything eh?No, no my friend you've got it backwards or reversed. The rule system isn't being broken to create a specific and overpowered single character. Rather it is being *used* to create the most powerful character possible. If it wasn't made using the rules, then what would be the point?Then it's an exploit instead. Point being, is the moment you talk about infinite anything you fly outside the point of playability as the rules can handle.
Great, your answer is "no, I have not actually played this build in a real game ever". Good enough for me, also should be good enough for everyone else to stop paying attention to your incessant prattling. Especially given the title of the thread. Just wanted to clear that up.
Great, your answer is "no, I have not actually played this build in a real game ever". Good enough for me, also should be good enough for everyone else to stop paying attention to your incessant prattling. Especially given the title of the thread. Just wanted to clear that up.Go reread my posts and you'll have your answer.So just to be clear, you've actually played this ridiculous build in an actual GM's campaign? What did the GM say about it? Did he throw any encounters in to try to stop you?Why is infinity such a big deal? I mean casters can have infinite explosive runes, but much like infinite CHA it will take time to accumulate them. Or is Explosive Runes an exploit as well? The thing about calling something an exploit is that like I said above what is an exploit to one GM may not be to another. Trying to determine powerlevel based on what X or Y GM may allow is a waste of time, which is why going by RAW is preferred. Otherwise, we should just disregard the summoner class entirely I guess since some GMs ban it. Maybe some GMs ban Fighters, but disregard those. Heck why don't we just disregard everything eh?No, no my friend you've got it backwards or reversed. The rule system isn't being broken to create a specific and overpowered single character. Rather it is being *used* to create the most powerful character possible. If it wasn't made using the rules, then what would be the point?Then it's an exploit instead. Point being, is the moment you talk about infinite anything you fly outside the point of playability as the rules can handle.
Congratulations on not following the point of the build. The whole reason I'm talking about this build is to point out that in pathfinder the strongest builds are pure class or very lightly multiclassed and certainly not using 3rd party material. Either way, the difference between the Half-Elf Nature oracle I'm discussing and the Half-Elf Lunar Oracle I actually played is really just the expansive potential of the Nature Oracle at level 20. So... ya I have no idea what your going on about but it's exceedingly irrelevant.
Well, for the record, I played an "uberbuild" along the lines of Anzyr's ideals.
I had theory-crafted a psion/wizard that I was permitted to use in Kingmaker (our first AP) that had originally built around a very exploitive trick to gain uber-stats and other benefits from level one.
Everyone in the group had great fun with it except, toward the middle of the AP, the GM, who desperately struggled to maintain world cohesion and follow the AP (which wasn't happening), so I regretfully retired him, and replaced him with a very powerful (secretly sentient golem) "brother" of his who didn't have much in the way of spellcasting (some permanently bonded magical item stuff hidden away within it).
Still an uberbuild, but substantially less so. (Though I do have to say, being able to grab the evil wizard's disintegration spell and throw it back at him was pretty awesome.)
At 20th level, outside of mythic paths and games (of which there are few and are going to be very few) the oracle trick is effectively an "end of game" boon to bootstrap the self to divinity (as I recall, it can be accomplished with a crafted self-activating magic item or trap just as well as being personally cast). Very nice, but not ultimately too terrible to utilize.
Another game, I played a duergar magic-item crafter with a number of really silly exploits allowing effectively free items in exchange for nothing but crafting time... which itself was vastly reduced. He specialized in wondrous items that were functionally identical to grafts. It was an absolute blast, as I crafted stuff that allowed us permanent and instant reincarnation (and alignment shifts) of the various villains we came across (though, of course, I couldn't help all of them this way). The GM didn't really mind this time as we didn't do things that would buck the general flow of the adventure, despite carving through it rather rapidly.
Why is infinity such a big deal? I mean casters can have infinite explosive runes, but much like infinite CHA it will take time to accumulate them. Or is Explosive Runes an exploit as well? The thing about calling something an exploit is that like I said above what is an exploit to one GM may not be to another. Trying to determine powerlevel based on what X or Y GM may allow is a waste of time, which is why going by RAW is preferred. Otherwise, we should just disregard the summoner class entirely I guess since some GMs ban it. Maybe some GMs ban Fighters, but disregard those. Heck why don't we just disregard everything eh?
You're being fecicious. The point where the dice cease entirely to matter is the point where the game ceases to exist. At that point it's an elaborate storytelling exercise (though all rpg's are like this at their heart) that has no need for books.
In fact at that point there's no need for a GM, maps, or other players (what are they going to do with there mere integer stats?).
So, to get on to the other point, yes RAW is preferred, but only so far as is practical both to play and to run for. It's not really practical to run for an infinite stat character of any sort. Thus no one few bother to try and play them. In fact, I think you'll find very very few of the types of shenanigans trotted out in real games as is often theorycrafted. Heck, few games ever get to the level where that's practical. Are there gm's that do silly things like severely restrict/ban fighters? Yes. And there are gm's who allow literally everything.
However, it's worth thinking about a solid middle ground where gm's are concerned. What you describe does not really translate to "uber" in my mind. Uber would be like a divination wizard sans paragon cheese and blood money. What you describe is closer to insanity.
Congratulations on not following the point of the build. The whole reason I'm talking about this build is to point out that in pathfinder the strongest builds are pure class or very lightly multiclassed and certainly not using 3rd party material. Either way, the difference between the Half-Elf Nature oracle I'm discussing and the Half-Elf Lunar Oracle I actually played is really just the expansive potential of the Nature Oracle at level 20. So... ya I have no idea what your going on about but it's exceedingly irrelevant.
I just wanted everyone else reading this to understand that you are not bringing any valid point to the actual OP in what is most likely a misguided attempt to get back to the actual OP.
I frankly don't care what the point of the build is because it will never see daylight in actual play (at least as far as I'm concerned). Based on many of your other postings I know that you're the player who shows up at a table and informs the GM exactly what you'll be playing and how you're going to make him/her suffer with it because it's all RAW. Players like that don't last in my group.
Oh! Well, if that's the term we're using, then yes - 'uber' characters are savants who stand around waiting for their specialty to become important. Which is why so many Pathfinder 'ubers' are specialists in applied violence: if they were playing Butler: The RPG they'd dedicate 100% of their build to housekeeping, domestic administration, and dining room etiquette.
And Jeeves would be a GMPC. ;)
OK even I will admit...that's
Some funny shit.
It's all a bad attempt at Politics 101: trying to obfuscate the issue and hide something negative by rewording things to language that makes it sound less bad.
Its not an exploit, its a "tactic" just like using the throw in Street Fighter. It's not broken, if you can't handle it then ur all just haterz and can't handle my "uber build".
It's obviously an exploit and using something like that is just plain munchkining. Having to go through all those hoops to do something that is clearly not obvious (and the Devs wouldn't have considered) to do something to break the mold of obvious limitations of a class.
There is a reason why Wizards/Sorcerers have limitations of spells/known and the limitation of having to spend to get spells or carry those spells around with you. There is a reason why you only go up 1 ability score per 4 levels and its expensive for items to increase that.
Trying to break the game with loopholes and then trying to rephrase it isn't fooling anyone.
Matt I know you have more tendency toward power gaming than some but I agree with what you said above. Glad you at least are aware of the problem and the symptoms.
The Nature Oracle/20 has another problem. The effects of spells do not stack with themselves unless specifically noted that they do so.
Awakening something already awakened simply isn't going to work...the effects of the two spells do not stack. It doesn't matter if you can artificially meet other critieria, since the spell doesn't stack with itself, even if you are reduced back down to 2 Int, you've still been Awakened and can't be Awakened again.
==Aelryinth
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Can we get a definition of what an 'uber' build is?
If I'm being honest, nothing that depends on damage is going to fit the bill, but that's just me. Uber to me is something that always has a strong action and can't be shut down.
I mean I ran a Beastmorph Vivi (fully optimized, as per my guide) that TORE through encounters leaving a bloody stain wherever it went, and I had a blast. GM just kept throwing bodies for me to tear into visceral stains, and gave the boss enough DR to keep me from...well...vivisecting it. And that's with enough skills and spells to always have something to do, even if I couldn't tear through my opponent like wet off brand tissue.
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The Nature Oracle/20 has another problem. The effects of spells do not stack with themselves unless specifically noted that they do so.
Awakening something already awakened simply isn't going to work...the effects of the two spells do not stack. It doesn't matter if you can artificially meet other critieria, since the spell doesn't stack with itself, even if you are reduced back down to 2 Int, you've still been Awakened and can't be Awakened again.
==Aelryinth
Instantaneous Effects
Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.
It works. Explicitly.
I truly wouldn't mind people objecting to it if they would actually look at the rules first. Would save me a lot of effort.
Also to Simon Legrande/MattR1986/Anti Power gaming Crusader!;
What each GM considers uber will vary, and trying to restrict waht is considered an uber build based on what a GM may decide to ban makes the discussion moot. Assuming that even one GM would allow the Nature Oracle, (and I'm sure there is at least one) it seems perfectly valid for this discussion, even though again it's purpose in this thread was largely intended to demonstrate that pure or low level dipped builds are superior to those that have prestige classes or large numbers of dips. Your posts aren't really contributing much to the discussion other to that you (all) personally would not allow this. Which is largely irrelevant to the discussion.
You missed the words "work cumulatively" (If you don't know the definition of the word cumulatively I can refer you to a good online dictionary.), then evidently. It even specifies it can be two or more. I'm just listing the strongest possible build. It's not like I'm the one who came up with it or anything, I just acknowledge that it is the strongest possible build. What's the point in you trying to attack uber builds that are perfectly legal, simply because you consider them "imbalanced". What thing that can be properly called "uber" isn't imbalanced?
Also I am shocked and mortified at the suggestion that I would argue for something other then RAW simply because I wanted something to work. There is literally zero value in that.
Because then the "math is a lie!" crowd can't understand.
Why is infinity such a big deal?
Well maybe I'll have to use Level i Flare then to show them the power of math.
The Nature Oracle/20 has another problem. The effects of spells do not stack with themselves unless specifically noted that they do so.
Awakening something already awakened simply isn't going to work...the effects of the two spells do not stack. It doesn't matter if you can artificially meet other critieria, since the spell doesn't stack with itself, even if you are reduced back down to 2 Int, you've still been Awakened and can't be Awakened again.
==Aelryinth
Instantaneous Effects
Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.
Yeah, IF they affect the target. The point being made is that if one use of the spell disqualifies the target from being a target then the second casting does nothing.
As an example if I have a spell that does 100 point of damage to a construct and then changes him into a human if he fails a save, the second spell does nothing because at that point he is no longer a construct.
An even better example is a spell that changes you into an outsider. Well once you are an outside the 2nd casting of the spell does nothing.
PS: Just to keep things on topic I am aware that these spells don't exist, but that was not the point.
No, I am not accusing you of being of being "one of those" posters, but someone else may come along.
The Nature Oracle/20 has another problem. The effects of spells do not stack with themselves unless specifically noted that they do so.
Awakening something already awakened simply isn't going to work...the effects of the two spells do not stack. It doesn't matter if you can artificially meet other critieria, since the spell doesn't stack with itself, even if you are reduced back down to 2 Int, you've still been Awakened and can't be Awakened again.
==Aelryinth
Instantaneous Effects
Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.
Yeah, IF they affect the target. The point being made is that if one use of the spell disqualifies the target from being a target then the second casting does nothing.
As an example if I have a spell that does 100 point of damage to a construct and then changes him into a human if he fails a save, the second spell does nothing because at that point he is no longer a construct.
An even better example is a spell that changes you into an outsider. Well once you are an outside the 2nd casting of the spell does nothing.
PS: Just to keep things on topic I am aware that these spells don't exist, but that was not the point.
No, I am not accusing you of being of being "one of those" posters, but someone else may come along.
You are still the target of all them. Merely because you changed types in between does not change the fact you are the target of a number instantaneous spells that all affect you. Yes, there will be some time where you are not a valid target for awaken again, but eventually you will be. Since these affects are stated to work cumulatively, the bonuses will pile up.
Also MattR1986 your argument is poor. You are picking one sub-heading under the rules for "Stacking Effects". The specific rule here of "Instantaneous effect" is what applies here since we are dealing with an instantaneous effect. And those explicitly work cumulatively. If Awaken were not an instantaneous effect, you would be correct, but sadly for your position that is not the case.
This trick existed before pathfinder btw, it is not even new
Well you know what they say "Old tricks are the best tricks." But ya, this been long established as something that works provided you can manage the tricky part, which is getting the Animal type multiple times, which is a pretty rare thing. I honestly can't think of any ways in PF outside of Nature Oracle's capstone.
My point was that you are no longer a valid target. If you are not a valid target then the spell can not target you.
As an example a spell designed to target undead can not target living creatures.
With this aside are you arguing RAW or RAI for your trick. I think the other poster are using RAW, while they are using what they think a GM will likely allow in a game, which is what most discussion use here. A lot of things fly by RAW. An example is the no penalties for attacks with a certain shield based feat.
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HE's also ignoring the fact his 'instantaneous' quote is referring to two different spells. NOT the same spell twice, which falls under the 'same source' rule and disqualifies itself.
Eh. I don't mind looking at some loopholes, but this trick is not one of them and doesn't work.
==Aelryinth