Hey guy trying to decide between the hexcrafter and the kensai. Also quick question, can you cast a spell with a scimitar and then go two handed to attack with it as a free action?
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Some details will be needed:What are you trying to do?
A Kensai is more of a Martial character than a Casty character, giving up a bunch of casty stuff in exchange for martial stuff.
A Hexcrafter is instead, more casty, with a magical spammable hex ability and some nice debuff spells added. Doesn't add to or sacrifice from the martial stuff, but Kensai actually does add to martial abilities.
As for the scimitar, I believe this works with Spellstrike but not Spell Combat.
Don't they stack?
Both change spell recall, so sadly no. Wish they did.
Also you can two hand your one hand weapon with spell combat. The weapon just needs to be a 1 hand weapon (or light but you can't 2h that).
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It depends on what you want and how far the campaign will go. Hexcrafter I find is a bit better early on, and is quite functional late game by stacking a hideous amount of debilitating effects(shaken, sickened, entangled, dazed, cursed, fatigued, staggered, all within a round or two), while the Kensai ends up have absolutely massive damage potential late game with the critical feats, and it's AC scales well with alternative armor sources and the int bonus.
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Don't they stack?Both change spell recall, so sadly no. Wish they did.
Also you can two hand your one hand weapon with spell combat. The weapon just needs to be a 1 hand weapon (or light but you can't 2h that).
"Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks."
You cannot cast the spell and then switch to two hands for the full-attack. However, if you're only doing a standard action cast a spell then spellstrike, it's fine.
I vote hexcrafter, access to more spells and you retain armor proficiency which is important.
Only thing you really miss is greater spell recall later on.
I say hex crafter. This is based solely off my pfs career where I have seen a dozen Kenai (at least) and only one hex crafter. And if I never see a magus use a scimitar again it will be too soon.
On a practical level i think both are strong archetypes, but i think a hexcrafter makes you more versatile.
@EvilPaladin: not sure where I'm going yet, I really like both archtypes, just not sure which one.
So you can't use a free action to grab on with both hands while using spellcombat. Sort of odd that a high level character can shoot like 6 arrows but we can't grab onto our hilt :P
@Under Hate to say it but I was thinking the scimitar, any other weapon worth it?
@Under Hate to say it but I was thinking the scimitar, any other weapon worth it?
Unfortunately not if you're dex based and don't want to suck until level 6 ish when you can afford agile. I'm just very sick of the magus class, not because it's bad or op, but because 90% of them look exactly the same, dex based wielding a scimitar, with or without kensai/blackblade. I just find it incredibly dull. I really hope they add a different "dervish dance" feat so a weapon beside the scimitar is actually feasible for a dex character. It's been hinted that they will in the acg, I just hope it's true. I have scimitar overload and every time i see someone using one I die a little inside.
As for Kensai or Hexcrafter, it could also depend on what you think about the Witch hexes. I don't really like save or die/save or suck spells/abilities (the slumber hex for example) all that much. Really not a fan of them, so I'd personally go with Kensai every time.
The groups I play with always roll for stats, due to that all my magi have been strength based so far, makes it a lot easier not to use the cookie cutter scimitar. Point buy does really try to push you in that direction, which is unfortunate.
Although by no means optimised compared to the regular Magus, Hexcrafter or Kensai; I had a lot of fun with a Hexcrafter who also had the Staff Magus archetype. He tended to suffer compared to the others as you have no armour and need strength for your weapon which makes the number of good stats you need a bit too high, but for flavour it worked really well.
@Under Actually if I go hexcrafter (which I'm leaning towards) I'll go heavy into str, kensai seems better with int/dex. I just like the scimitar crit range, thought about going with a feat and taking katana but I thought the exotic route might come back and bite me.
@Corodix, I agree with the save or suck stuff, but you can caste hexes 1x per creature, meaning you have a ton of spells you can cast (think there is a feat which allows you to cast against the creature twice)
@Helvellyn I'll look into the staff magus after work, I like playing something with a different feel to it.
@ekibus: hexcrafter every time. I'm playing one and it's funny. I'm str based, and I'm going well. I'm with helvellyn on the flavor of the staff magus...
@espermagic: aren't kukri exotic weapons?
Hexcrafter is the best Magus archetype. Kensai gives up way more stuff for far less benefits. No contest, really... I suppose if your campaign features a lot of undead or other stuff immune to Slumber, Hexcrafter loses a bit of its luster, but Flight and Prehensile Hair are still awesome and later on you can get the Major hexes for Ice Tomb and Retribution. So it's still pretty good.
I really don't even get why people love Kensai so much...I'd rather play vanilla Magus, it's better. Even going with the scimitar (it's just that you're stuck with worthless armor wearing abilities then).
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Kensai all the way.
I really don't understand the whole "hexcrafter" perspective. You can't spell combat with a hex, so you give up all your attacks that round for a save or suck effect. Or you could cast a spell, and STILL get all of your attacks. There are a few good self buff hexes, such as getting fly early. See treantmonk's guide to the wizard for an explanation of why save or suck spells are not just risky, but a bad idea even when they do succeed.
Kensai, on the other hand, deal more damage, and offer more options for things you can do. You get weapon focus for free (awesome), get more AC, and confirming critical hits become jokes when your adding 10+ to the critical confirmation rolls.
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Not all hexes are save or suck effects.
You get to add all of the curse spells to your spell list, and can deliver them with spellstrike.
Kensai suck flat out. Diminished spellcasting and no armor, and do not offer more options, that is a biased and unsupported statement.
They do not get better AC, they get comparable AC in a low magic game.
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Kensai all the way.
I really don't understand the whole "hexcrafter" perspective. You can't spell combat with a hex, so you give up all your attacks that round for a save or suck effect. Or you could cast a spell, and STILL get all of your attacks. There are a few good self buff hexes, such as getting fly early. See treantmonk's guide to the wizard for an explanation of why save or suck spells are not just risky, but a bad idea even when they do succeed.
Kensai, on the other hand, deal more damage, and offer more options for things you can do. You get weapon focus for free (awesome), get more AC, and confirming critical hits become jokes when your adding 10+ to the critical confirmation rolls.
Hexcrafter all the way.
And the issue with Hexcrafter over Kensai is all the Kensai can really do is damage. And since there is no combat difference between a target with 1000 Hp or 1 Hp the Kensai becomes just another mook at that point.Hexcrafter gives flexibility and extra options without reducing the damage dealing potential of the class. Realistically the Hexcrafter can do everything that the Kensai can do but the Kensai can't do everything the Hexcrafter can.
Winner=Hexcrafter.
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@Under Hate to say it but I was thinking the scimitar, any other weapon worth it?Unfortunately not if you're dex based and don't want to suck until level 6 ish when you can afford agile. I'm just very sick of the magus class, not because it's bad or op, but because 90% of them look exactly the same, dex based wielding a scimitar, with or without kensai/blackblade. I just find it incredibly dull. I really hope they add a different "dervish dance" feat so a weapon beside the scimitar is actually feasible for a dex character. It's been hinted that they will in the acg, I just hope it's true. I have scimitar overload and every time i see someone using one I die a little inside.
Haha good! Become numb to this world!
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Kensai all the way.
I really don't understand the whole "hexcrafter" perspective. You can't spell combat with a hex, so you give up all your attacks that round for a save or suck effect. Or you could cast a spell, and STILL get all of your attacks. There are a few good self buff hexes, such as getting fly early. See treantmonk's guide to the wizard for an explanation of why save or suck spells are not just risky, but a bad idea even when they do succeed.
Kensai, on the other hand, deal more damage, and offer more options for things you can do. You get weapon focus for free (awesome), get more AC, and confirming critical hits become jokes when your adding 10+ to the critical confirmation rolls.
Hexcrafter gives you more options than Kensai imo. Free Weapon focus is nice, as is critical confirmation, but having the option to use a Hex when you can't make a full attack is fantastic. You can't spell combat every round. You also have more spell options than a Kensai. You have every spell with the curse descriptor added to your spell list, which is huge.
You can also be a decent natural weapons magus as a hexcrafter with the options for the nails and prehensile hair hexes, although monstrous physique is better for this.
Also, Hexcrafters do not have Diminished Spellcasting.
They are both good archetypes. But I think Hexcrafter is better.
I like the Hexcrafter that focuses on debuffs that doesn't focus on fishing for crits.
Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Ill Omen, all of these spells do things other than do damage which could be very very useful to the party.
It also doesn't need a high crit weapon.
Not all hexes are save or suck effects.
You get to add all of the curse spells to your spell list, and can deliver them with spellstrike.
Kensai suck flat out. Diminished spellcasting and no armor, and do not offer more options, that is a biased and unsupported statement.
They do not get better AC, they get comparable AC in a low magic game.
The Kensai has no abilities that only work when unarmored, they just have to deal with spell failure chance.
The haramaki and silken ceremonial armor have no arcane spell failure chance or check penalty. They can be magic, like any other armor.
Not all hexes are save or suck effects.
You get to add all of the curse spells to your spell list, and can deliver them with spellstrike.
Kensai suck flat out. Diminished spellcasting and no armor, and do not offer more options, that is a biased and unsupported statement.
They do not get better AC, they get comparable AC in a low magic game.
The Kensai has no abilities that only work when unarmored, they just have to deal with spell failure chance.
The haramaki and silken ceremonial armor have no arcane spell failure chance or check penalty. They can be magic, like any other armor.
Oh you're right, that completely invalidates the Hexcrafter then.
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Kensai has MORE AC than hexcrafter starting as soon as you can afford a wand. Getting the curse descriptor spells isn't huge, except maybe for brand just for the idea of a non-cheesy touch cantrip.
Having reduced spells isn't that big of a deal either. Pearls of Power are cheap, and your main damage spell is typically a level 1 spell. Full round attacks are the majority of combat. Hexcrafters don't out perform Kensai when you can't get a full attack.
So your answer to fix the Kensai weaknesses is to throw money at them?
Cue the fighter threads.
Or you can wait until level 3 to have more AC, your choice.
How does it give you better AC?
I see it giving comparable AC at lower levels sure, but getting +11 to +14 AC from medium or heavy armor at later levels with a hexcrafter is going to dwarf what your eventual highest INT modifer could mechanically be.
Still not seeing it.
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Well...
Lets look at a few levels (leaving out dexterity, and common items):
Levels 1, 7, and 13 is where the Hexcrafter should be ahead because of armor switching. As soon as the Kensai gets a wand of mage armor, it evens up considerably.
Level 1
Hexcrafter Chain Shirt = 4 AC
Kensai +1 intelligence = 1 AC
Level 7
Hexcrafter +5 chainmail = 11 AC
Kensai +7 from intelligence, +4 mage armor = 11 AC
They break even even with the hexcrafter spending alot more on the AC.
Level 13
Hexcrafter +5 Full Plate = 14 AC
Kensai +8 from intelligence, +6 from +5 silken ceremonial = 14 AC
Breaks even, with a simular amount spent. However, this is also assuming that thier dexterity modifiers are 1 or less. The Dexterity puts the Kensai far above.
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Kensai has MORE AC than hexcrafter starting as soon as you can afford a wand. Getting the curse descriptor spells isn't huge, except maybe for brand just for the idea of a non-cheesy touch cantrip.
Having reduced spells isn't that big of a deal either. Pearls of Power are cheap, and your main damage spell is typically a level 1 spell. Full round attacks are the majority of combat. Hexcrafters don't out perform Kensai when you can't get a full attack.
A Kensai can have more AC then a Hexcrafter that can be taken away with a single feat and a few skill points. A simple feint build (shouldn't even call it a build, it's 2 feats and a handful of skill points) takes away ALL of this classes AC boosts and drops them down to just the mage armor (or grossly overpriced bracers) armor and is then easily hit.
Honestly any BBEG who suspects a Kensai is coming for him should just hire a mook with Greater Feint to stand around waiting. As soon as tissue paper Kensai shows up just feint him when he walks in the door and ready an action to attack him if he tries to cast a spell. Boom, now the Kensai is just a second rate fighter with no AC, a crappy bab and inferior HP's.
I fail to see why this archetype is so popular, it can be beaten by a non-idiot rogue, a ROGUE, how embarrassing.
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Well...
Kensai: "Hi Rogue? Would you like to feint me today?"
Rogue: "Yes Please"
Kensai: "Good job, I now lost my dexterity bonus! What are you going to do now?"
Rogue: "SNEAK ATTACK!"
Kensai: "Good job, you killed my mirror image! My turn!"
*Proceeds to either kill the rogue, hit the rogue and then go invisible, hit the rogue then use elemental body to prevent any SA, or anything else that would easily counter the poor fellow*
A kensai knows his weaknesses, but AC is not his only defense. Mirror Image, blue/displacement, fly, oh my! With an intelligence score off the table, the Kensai had BETTER play it smart. As such, ranks in sense motive are typically maxed out.
Not to mention that the Kensai typically goes first.
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Well...
Kensai: "Hi Rogue? Would you like to feint me today?"
Rogue: "Yes Please"
Kensai: "Good job, I now lost my dexterity bonus! What are you going to do now?"
Rogue: "SNEAK ATTACK!"
Kensai: "Good job, you killed my mirror image! My turn!"
*Proceeds to either kill the rogue, hit the rogue and then go invisible, hit the rogue then use elemental body to prevent any SA, or anything else that would easily counter the poor fellow*A kensai knows his weaknesses, but AC is not his only defense. Mirror Image, blue/displacement, fly, oh my! With an intelligence score off the table, the Kensai had BETTER play it smart. As such, ranks in sense motive are typically maxed out.
Not to mention that the Kensai typically goes first.
Oh, so what your saying is the main draw of this archetype (the sky high AC) is unimportant since the main protection is the exact same thing the average Magus uses all the time? So the fact that the hexcrafter has all the same defenses AND an immunity to this weakness (by wearing actual armor) then the only thing the Kensai brings to the table is weapon damage? That's impressive.
Oh and since sense motive is wisdom based and a non class skill it's going to cap out at what, Character level? That's not going to be hard to beat.
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The main draw? Did I say it was the main draw? I mentioned that a Kensai has Higher AC. Which is true. Oh, it has a weakness, doesn't everything? How many encounters will have feints involved anyways? Whereas how many encounters will involve touch attacks? Not only is the Kensai's AC higher, but it is less frequently countered. I see many more touch attacks than feints, even among NPC's.
Kensai has MORE AC than hexcrafter starting as soon as you can afford a wand. Getting the curse descriptor spells isn't huge, except maybe for brand just for the idea of a non-cheesy touch cantrip.
Having reduced spells isn't that big of a deal either. Pearls of Power are cheap, and your main damage spell is typically a level 1 spell. Full round attacks are the majority of combat. Hexcrafters don't out perform Kensai when you can't get a full attack.
A Kensai can have more AC then a Hexcrafter that can be taken away with a single feat and a few skill points. A simple feint build (shouldn't even call it a build, it's 2 feats and a handful of skill points) takes away ALL of this classes AC boosts and drops them down to just the mage armor (or grossly overpriced bracers) armor and is then easily hit.
Honestly any BBEG who suspects a Kensai is coming for him should just hire a mook with Greater Feint to stand around waiting. As soon as tissue paper Kensai shows up just feint him when he walks in the door and ready an action to attack him if he tries to cast a spell. Boom, now the Kensai is just a second rate fighter with no AC, a crappy bab and inferior HP's.
I fail to see why this archetype is so popular, it can be beaten by a non-idiot rogue, a ROGUE, how embarrassing.
1) Feint denies his dex bonus to THE ROGUE. So a Mook who feints does nothing for the other guy..
2) Feint requires a 3 feat investment (Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, and Greater Feint)
3) The magus will still kill the rogue fairly quickly since the rogue is limited to a single attack with improved feint.
4) The Kensai will still have AC if he uses enchanted Ceremonial Hiramaki.
5) the rogue is still a rogue... so will die to everyone else...
Heck if you want to play this game, you can just as easily say that anyone who runs around in heavy armor is stupid since they can easily be taken out with quite a few tactics... For instance:
1) Anything that requires reflex saves... since most people in Plate are not known for their dex...
2) Any touch spells....
3) Anything Incorporeal.
4) Alchemists
5) Gunslingers
6) Anything with a brilliant weapon
7) A sundering character (pretty much easier to sunder armor than it is to feint... and if you break their armor, the BBEG still benefits)
8) Water
Hey guy trying to decide between the hexcrafter and the kensai. Also quick question, can you cast a spell with a scimitar and then go two handed to attack with it as a free action?
The Kensai can get stupidly high AC with decent armor.
Since INT gives a bonus to Dodge AC not Dex AC you can just use celestial armor (considered light armor) with it to get extremely high AC. Add an animated shield with that and you can use spell combatKensai can be extremely dangerous while being extremely defensive, but considering that it is impossible to get an INT of 50 for a PC you are never going to take advantage of all 20 levels of a Kensai for Canny Defense.
In this respect you are more powerful if you go Kensai 10/Mystery Cultist 10. (EK is better in its own way, but Kensai does not meet the requirements!)
For ultimate stupidity dump STR, DEX, CON, Max CHA and INT, take a level in Synthesist (Limbs: Arms required) (Better physical attributes) and Oracle (Cha in place of DEX to AC) go Kensai 10, and you're a more powerful Kensai that can cast almost everything with the proper arcana.
The Hexcrafter is a more well balanced character for what the character is built to do. The best part is that multiclassing isn't important. Your Hexes replace a lot of spamming, and whereas the normal magus focuses on saveless spells you can, indeed, use save or suck. Hexcrafters are the "full casters" of the Magi, and while the normal magus can fill that role as well due to spell recall the Hexcrafter can get the extremely debilitating hexes such as slumber, Ice Tomb, and Death Curse. (Unsure if that is the actual name)
Being able to say "Die" and the enemy save or die is powerful, but also having a more offensive spell list is also very good.
Kensai has MORE AC than hexcrafter starting as soon as you can afford a wand.Honestly any BBEG who suspects a Kensai is coming for him should just hire a mook with Greater Feint to stand around waiting. As soon as tissue paper Kensai shows up just feint him when he walks in the door and ready an action to attack him if he tries to cast a spell. Boom, now the Kensai is just a second rate fighter with no AC, a crappy bab and inferior HP's.
I fail to see why this archetype is so popular, it can be beaten by a non-idiot rogue, a ROGUE, how embarrassing.
Your logic is flawed on so many ways. Mostly because you are assuming that the Kensai is alone, that he will not have quicken spell or understand the art of five foot steps.
Also, you cannot--or should not--have enemies ready their actions to "follow this PC around so it can get AAOs on that PC or character when it casts spells" because this breaks the entire point of acting in turn. You will end up with everyone playing flying characters just so they can use their own cheapness to circumvent your cheapness.
Remember: you want to encourage them to be interesting or everyone becomes a generic (and BORING) power-build.
The entire draw of the BBEG's dungeons are that they are effective poker. It is better to penalize people who not having everything covered by a Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard than it is to build dungeons to counter your players.
If you build dungeons and content to specifically kill or be resistant to your PCs then what is the point? You know you can win. You are playing Poker where you know what their hands can be and can build your own hand to defeat all of theirs.
Your logic is flawed because any BBEG can defeat any party he has the time, money, and resources to custom build something to defeat. Hiring 100 level 1 sorcerers to all magic missile the same person at once will do at least 200 damage (instant death for most characters), and since sorcerers cast 3 spells at level 1 they can kill 3 of the 4 characters, then just acid splash/ray of frost the last one down (probably the guy wearing full plate and wearing a shield.) If that person turns out the BE the wizard (CLEVER GIRL!) then short of teleporting out of there, surrendering to join the BBEG, or being able to fly he is probably screwed.
All that said you can build stuff to defeat the PCs, but it should be things that disable 1 PC for a fight or something that they can avoid in some way. If that Sorcerer in the party of 4 specializes in fire (and only fire for some reason) and they fight a fire elemental then the other 3 PCs should be able to kill it no problem. If the ENTIRE DUNGEON is made of Fire Elementals or fire immune monsters then you are singling out that PC and shouldn't be DMing since you are just informing him that he is, in fact, a human paperweight in the group that you don't want there.
Remember the golden rule: everyone should be having fun, not just the DM.
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1) Feint denies his dex bonus to THE ROGUE. So a Mook who feints does nothing for the other guy..
Feint denies the Dex bonus to whoever does the feint not just the rogue class, Greater Feint denies it for everyone.
2) Feint requires a 3 feat investment (Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, and Greater Feint)
Feint requires NO investment in feats, just a few skill points it's a standard action anyone can take at anytime. The feats are there to make it easier.
3) The magus will still kill the rogue fairly quickly since the rogue is limited to a single attack with improved feint.
Eh, a rogue sneak attacking every round with a greatsword, power attack and the occasional vital strike will devastate the typical Magus, especially if they are using readied actions to deny the magus his spellcasting.
4) The Kensai will still have AC if he uses enchanted Ceremonial Hiramaki.
Yup, but if you can't hit an ac 16 at this level you probably have bigger issues then this fight.
5) the rogue is still a rogue... so will die to everyone else...
We're not trying to kill everyone else, just this paper tiger in front of us.
Heck if you want to play this game, you can just as easily say that anyone who runs around in heavy armor is stupid since they can easily be taken out with quite a few tactics... For instance:
Everything has issues, the feinting rogue was just the first issue that popped up. Heck a deeper darkness spell gives the same returns for less work (both options strip away the dex to ac bonus).
THIS post however was simply discussing the pro's and cons of these two archetypes and in this discussion the Kensai's drawbacks are significantly easier to exploit then the Hexcrafters.|
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Getting the curse descriptor spells isn't huge, except maybe for brand just for the idea of a non-cheesy touch cantrip.
its alot more then just "one cheezy cantrip". a well built hex crafter can apply a -12 to saves in one combat round. thats a game ender from any bbeg that can be the target of a spell effect.
its more impressive then a pouncing barbarian. when you hit them with a baleful polymorph the next round and it sticks 95% of the time, hp is irrelevant.
its just a super powerful "setup" character who makes everyone in your group better, its why im such a big fan of hexcrafters. you dont get the kill, you let the sorcerer or fighter get it by making the target weaker.
well more like much much weaker.
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How exactly are you getting to -12 again? Bestow Curse, shaken, sickened, Evil Eye? How do you do this with one round of combat again?
Bestow Curse is good, but it's not all that. Would you rather have bestow curse or haste for the team? They are both level 3 spells.
Kensai can accomplish a very similar thing, heck, almost any magus can. The only thing that the Hexcrafter has more to offer is Evil Eye (A samsaran magus can get Bestow Curse). Evil Eye is good... but I wouldn't waste a standard action on it unless I was in a group with a lot of save or suck effects.
EDIT: When I say Similar, I referencing debuffing in general.
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How exactly are you getting to -12 again? Bestow Curse, shaken, sickened, Evil Eye? How do you do this with one round of combat again?
Bestow Curse is good, but it's not all that. Would you rather have bestow curse or haste for the team? They are both level 3 spells.
Kensai can accomplish a very similar thing, heck, almost any magus can. The only thing that the Hexcrafter has more to offer is Evil Eye (A samsaran magus can get Bestow Curse). Evil Eye is good... but I wouldn't waste a standard action on it unless I was in a group with a lot of save or suck effects.
EDIT: When I say Similar, I referencing debuffing in general.
you can cast bestow curse, since its a touch spell, in your weapon via spell strike. so you start the combat with Bestow Curse active. then spell combat using a second bestow curse.
(-2)shaken,(-2) sickened,(-4) bestow curse,(-6 to save stat of choice) spell combat bestow curse. then follow up next round with a evil eye, if you caster didnt obliterate it with a save or die spell.