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As the title asks. I have two character concepts, and am not sure which would be better for society play. The first is an -infernal binder- school conjuration wizard. Despite not having levels in the summoner class, they will be built around summoning, using feats like acadamae graduate(standard action summoning for wizards...though with a drawback), augment summoning etc.. They will also still have other non-summoning things they can do, though, and due to being, well, a wizard, will be highly flexable. Their ultimate goal build-wise would be to make it to the -diabolist- prestige class, and the character would have a very distinct "chelish" flavour to them overall between infernal binder school and the diabolist PrC, which is exactly what I would be aiming for with them.
However, due to being a terrible GM, I'd be playing this character from level 1 onwards, and low levels with a wizard can be -quite- painful. Thus, looking at other classes, I also have interest in the witch. The witch, like the wizard, is still an arcane fullcaster that plays like one, but unlike the wizard who's resources are extremely limited at low levels the witch's hexes give her a LOT more staying power at low levels then a wizard has. She can use her hexes every encounter, and many of them can be used more then once in the same encounter. This gives her a massive leg up on the wizard in terms of low level performance and fun....the witch can "do her thing" without having to waste her precious 2-3 1st level spells per day, and while the wizard will be stronger overall at lower levels I see the witch coming out ahead...
However, I REALLY like the fluff and RP of the infernal binder wizard headed for diabolist...so my question to you is thus: are low levels really that painful for a wizard in PF society? Would you advise against trying to level a wizard from 1 on up? What are your experiences with running wizards from level 1-onward in PF society? Would the witch's access to hexes make it a better choice for somebody who wants to play a prepared arcane fullcaster in PF society from level 1 on up? Any thoughts or ideas on this would be appreciated!
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Yeah. I am considering both highly right now, and each has their merits. Mechanically, I VASTLY prefer the witch: I love the hexes and debuffs, and the class is very flavorful and just awesome. However, why I just don't go with witch and call it a day is actually something related to role playing. I am a male. I therefore cannot do -good- female voices. If I made a Witch, I could not see them as male for several reasons, but the most important one is that many of the good witch items are feminine clothing items such as gowns and corsets. I have -no- desire to play a cross-dresser, but likewise, don't want to gimp myself by -not- taking these items for RP purposes. Thus, unless I am allowed to re-fluff these items as more...masculine...clothing pieces, which I don't think I could in PF society, I'd want to play my witch as female and the issue of 'my very male voice can't sound believably feminine" comes into play....
Yeah, I know, that's in the end a small issue, but as a role player I want to talk in character voice...and if my character voice is so un-believeable that it detracts from the game then that's not a good thing for the table....
Do any of you have experiences with role players in PF society that are male, and who do lousy female voices, RPing females at your table? If so was the fact their voice over sucked a distraction for table due to it being so un-believeable or did nobody really care?
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Yeah, I assume your witch is low level, though? Because once you get into higher levels you'll want stuff like the witching gown or corset of dire witchcraft and when that comes, I'd be interested in how you handle the prospect of your character becoming a cross-dresser. At least with the gown it specifically states it can look however the wearer wants via a glamour attached to it, so a male witch could probably get away with that one if he kept the gown constantly glamoured to be, say, more manly mage robes. The corset, however, there is no way around. It's a corset, and it looks like one....and the corset also happens to be the better of the two items.
Is Infernal Binder legal in PFS? They ban things like Vivisectionist for being 'teh evulz'.
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Infernal Binder is actually legal. I checked. Oh, and to add to the whole "the best witch items are feminine clothing pieces issue" there is the ever awesome cackling hag's blouse....which is, well..a blouse. It basically seems that Pazio assumes all witches are female or cross-dressers. However...if I REALLY want to be silly and make a ridiculous character I can do decent imitations of both the voice of Pegasus from yugioh and James of Team Rocket's infamous laugh...combined the two...and...well...yeah....
Make him male and call it a warlock, roleplay problems solved.
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Dosen't solve the main issue, which is that all the best items for witches are feminine clothing peices such as blouses and corsets...That is THE primary issue I have with the RP. I don't want to make a gimp by not taking these items, but likewise, don't want to role play a cross dresser....and I don't think PF society will let you re-fluff items.
and I don't think PF society will let you re-fluff items.
While there is a lot of stupidity surrounding fluff in PFS, this is completely ridiculous. Even in PFS it is not appropriate to enforce a flavor tax on witches.
I suppose you could simply roleplay a character who is very sensitive about being called a cross dresser. Have the character take Intimidate and call the corset a girdle, the blouse a shirt, and the gown a robe. If anyone tries to correct you, you Intimidate them. Feast of Ashes is a cool spell that never gets used much, use it on fellow pathfinders who make fun of your appearance. I would have a blast with a character like this, your mileage may vary.
Also, I assume that with magical items fitting various body shapes without issue, fitting it to someone of the opposite gender wouldn't make it look ridiculous.
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It is still, IMO, an issue...and as stated PF society won't let you re-fluff items.....and I have no desire to RP my character as a cross-dresser, even one in denial. So that is, in a nutshell, the issue I am having with the witch class...the fact that the best items for a witch, fluff-wise, cannot work with any male member of the class I would like to play. Thats why I had the idea for the wizard, but low-level play for a wizard is PAINFUL.....hence why I am asking if it is even worth playing a wizard at low levels. The only other class I could think of that I'd want to play that would -not- be painful to play at low levels would be an Oracle, but there is no mystery I like that feels particularly "chelish" and my character concept is that of a chelish noble who practices dark magic and is very...well....chelish in fluff. About the only mystery that is even remotely "asmodean" is flames, and I am not one for blasters. If only they had a lawful equivalent of outer rifts, that would be perfect...but as it stands outer rifts is -abyssal- rather then -infernal- in fluff...so it doesn't really work.....
If any of you have ideas for classes that fit the kind of character I am going for that are not painful to play at low levels but will fit in line with a "chelish caster" fluff I'd be grateful. Also, don't suggest cleric, please, as my IRL wisdom would be one of my "dump stats" and thus I have issues RPing high wis characters anywhere other then play-by post where I can spend extended amounts of time planning their actions and thus compensate for the fact wisdom is one of my IRL dump stats. Me trying to do high-wis "in real time" would be a nightmare...
It is still, IMO, an issue...and as stated PF society won't let you re-fluff items.....and I have no desire to RP my character as a cross-dresser, even one in denial.
I still really don't see why this is a problem given that the "reskin rule" is probably the biggest misconception in PFS play. The rule actually says that you cannot reskin an animal companion or item to be something for which there are no rules. You can't have your club be a frying pan. You can't have your dog be a pig; etc. What it does not say is that you can never describe anything differently from what the fluff in the book is.
Even if you want to ignore that, there are plenty of blouses which were men's clothing especially in the medieval and early modern periods. In fact your typical Taldan nobleman's ruffly shirt (I assume that they all have them) is technically a blouse.
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That works for the blouse I guess, and fits considering the character I have would be fluffed as minor nobility anyway, but still dosen't help the -corset- issue...I am also open to -other classes- beyond witch and wizard provided they are non-wisdom-based casters and can be made suitably -chelish- in fluff....
There are Sorcerers, and the Human favored class bonus (also available to half-humans) is an excellent way to gain some versatility. Infernal Bloodline is okay, but I'd pick Arcane or Sylvan instead.
The Sage variant of Arcane replaces Arcane Bond and your Bloodline Arcana in exchange for switching out Cha for Int. Combine with Seeker to make an excellent skillmonkey + full caster.
I also like the idea of going Sylvan Sorcerer for an animal companion (take Boon Companion to keep it up to par) and gain back some of the Arcane bloodline goodies via Eldritch Heritage.
There is also the Oracle, for extra Chelish flavor you can take the Legalistic curse.
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Still doesn't fix the -corset- as there is no equivalent masculine piece of clothing I can think of....and still, though, not every GM may allow the re-fluff.....because PF society....so yeah....Still also looking for ideas for other classes to try...
EDIT: Ninja'ed....and sorcerer stuffers from the same issue as a wizard does...low level they are painful to play. The whole point of going witch over wizard was that witch hexes make low-level play a lot easier. A sorcerer isn't doing any better in combat then the wizard, and outside of combat the wizard contributes more by having more skills due to int....also...Oracle I stated my issues with, none of the mysteries are particularly fitting for a chelish character except flames, and I don't like blasters. Pretty much all the mysteries except flames don't fit asmodeus....at all...and if I where playing a chelish oracle that is the only deity I'd want my powers to come from....well...maybe one of the other lords of hell would do. A Metal Oracle could work for Disparter him being associated with iron and all, I suppose, but I am not a fan of -melee- oracles so that one is out....and all the other mysteries are either too chaotic, too good, too "nature-y" or more in line with gods other then Asmodeus or the lords of hell.(Bones would be more an urgathoa or Orcus thing while battle would be more for war gods like Gozwhateverhisnameis. Ancestor and Time both strike me as mysteries Pharasma is likely to grant etc...)
Still doesn't fix the -corset- as there is no equivalent masculine piece of clothing I can think of....and still, though, not every GM may allow the re-fluff.....because PF society....so yeah....Still also looking for ideas for other classes to try...
I am still going to argue that you might have gotten a mistaken impression of PFS from the forums where a lot of the reskinning stupidity gets aired.
No one should care if your "corset" is actually a vest or waistcoat, both of which a nobleman might wear with his ruffly "blouse" shirt.Just play the character you want if it is mechanically legal.
Takhisis I would be "REALLY" surprised if they wouldn´t rename you an item because of "GENDER" Issues. This would violate the non discriminate clause of most US-Companies. So go ahead and say you wear the male version, otherwise they would discrimate you.
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But some people -do-.....and if my GM happens to be one of them.....yeah.....
EDIT: Ninja'ed....So your saying the only way for me to prevent this issue is to spend thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer to bring up a discrimination suit that would probably be in some newspaper somewhere due to it's sheer absurdity. Thanks, that makes me feel much better. -__- In all seriousness though...I don't think that there is even a viable suit there, and resorting to such scare tactics would take away from the game and disrupt everything...which is not what I want to do.
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Lore doesn't fit Cheliax AT ALL because it is in no way Asmodean in fluff...which means your power is coming from somebody other then Asmodeus. If I am making a hyper-chelish caster that is divine, their power better be coming from Asmodeus or at the least one of the major powers in hell. Lore as a mystery would be granted by somebody like Nethys or Norgorber rather then Asmodeus...gods focused on knowledge or secrets...the closest thing to either of those in Asmo's profile would be contracts, and even then that part of his Porfirio is not "knowledge-y" enough for him to really be able to grant the lore mystery.
But some people -do-.....and if my GM happens to be one of them.....yeah.....
What are they possibly going to do even if they are power tripping on fluff? Seriously?
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Thats not my concern. My concern isn't that they won't let me use the items, but that they won't let me RE-FLUFF them because of certain pathfinder society rules and that my male witch will thus be forced to either gimp himself by not taking the items due to the weird RP or taking them and being forced to be a cross-dresser. I have no doupt that every GM would let me use the items. My concern is whether or not those GMs would let me re-fluff them into less feminine clothing items so I didn't have to RP my character as a cross-dresser.
EDIT: Ninja'ed yet again....If they are power tripping they can force me not to re-fluff the character's items and thus back me into a corner where I either MUST RP them as something I don't want to(a cross-dresser) or leave the game/table entirely. Thats what they would do.
EDIT: Ninja'ed yet again....If they are power tripping they can force me not to re-fluff the character's items and thus back me into a corner where I either MUST RP them as something I don't want to(a cross-dresser) or leave the game/table entirely.
You don't have to RP anything is my point. The DM can say whatever they want, just play your character the same way that you always would, ie wearing men's clothing. How are they going to make you RP something?
If the DM starts making up mechanical repercussions to back up their interpretation or really putting you up against the wall RP-wise then you have something actionable to take to a VO because it is pretty much axiomatic that the DM never tells the players how to play their characters.
Google image search "male corset". There are lots, and they are by no means (all) feminine.
If all else really fails, I am absolutely certain that none of the images that you find if you took turtle's idea would be outside the realm of possibility for how a fantasy character dresses.
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But chances are they won't actually do anything -mechanically- to enforce it. It will be 100% RP. NPCs will comment on how your character is a man in woman's cloths and a "pansy" and all that kind of stuff, without actually giving you negative diplomacy modifiers. They will coerce the other players into reacting to your character as if they where a man in woman's clothing. All of those are things that have -no- mechanical basis and can be used to force me to RP them as a cross-dresser. As stated, at that point I'd probably just refuse to game and leave the table, which would most likely be for the better if the GM was that power-mad anyway, but none the less it would be a very unpleasant experience I could have avoided if I played another class less reliant on items heavily skewed towards a specific gender in fluff.
But chances are they won't actually do anything -mechanically- to enforce it. It will be 100% RP. NPCs will comment on how your character is a man in woman's cloths and a "pansy" and all that kind of stuff, without actually giving you negative diplomacy modifiers. They will coerce the other players into reacting to your character as if they where a man in woman's clothing. All of those are things that have -no- mechanical basis and can be used to force me to RP them as a cross-dresser.
Yea, you can take all of that to a VO as a violation of the "don't be a dick" rule and expect them to do something about it.
The chance of any of that happening is vanishingly small. No one gives a s#&~ about what your character is wearing most of the time. They will be picturing your token or mini no matter what.
My advice will always be to stop being paranoid about bad DMs and just play the character that you want. Even if there is a DM who is that much of an a*@%%%# about fluff I bet that you will find out from the community with enough time to avoid them entirely.
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I suppose your right, I just fear taking such risks, is all, especially if it leads me to having to deal with the kind of crap mentioned and going to a VO and all that stuff. I'd rather not have an unpleasant experience at the table because of fluff if possible...but it won't matter for a long time anyway as you don't start hitting stuff like the cackling hag's blouse and corset of dire witchcraft until mid-high levels anyway...
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I suppose that you have a point. Maybe -not- taking those items won't gimp me as much I thought....simply not taking them would eliminate the issues I am having entirely. I thought not taking them would make my character -worse-....but if your saying they are not worth the investment...then maybe I don't have any issues at all...
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Get Sleeves of Many Garments. At 200gp they're cheap, and you can walk around appearing to be in any outfit you want.
And to be honest, I've played a witch for 13.2 levels now(EOTT), and can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I used Cackle. Mostly because my teammates would finish off the opponent before I needed to. ;-)
- I have not seen any witch at my local purchase those items.
- I have seen no PFS GM that would hassle anyone for purchasing those items on a male character. (Well, probably some kidding around between close friends, but that's it.) If I did, I would report it to the VL.
- I have seen no PFS GM that would say anything about my naming them a robe, vest, and shirt of X. If I did, I would report it to the VL.
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The wizard class is harder to play at low levels (1-4), if you aren't careful. (btw, I disagree with your statement that the sorcerer is just as bad.) Poor HP, AC, and few spells is just plain rough.
What I would suggest is, consider the groups you see playing at the low level tables. Do they just barely survive/succeed on a regular basis.
If yes, might be even more risky to pick a class that begins weak.
If no, probably ok if you aren't quite as mondo for the first few levels.
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The witch is much easier at low levels due to having something to due all the time via hexes. Not necessarily more survivable, but they almost always have something effective to do.
I have heard a few people say they just aren't as fun at high levels, but PFS generally doesn't get to those levels.
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For an alternate class that could play your concept, you might consider an inquisitor that is mostly focused on the abilities other than fighting with a weapon.
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Going back to the original topic, you can buy a 1st-level wand for 2 prestige points (or 750 gp) so as long as you're willing to pay, a wizard can still be very playable at low levels. A Wand of Infernal Healing is generally a must have, and a Wand of Magic Missile will ensure that you have something you can always be doing each round until you hit 3rd level.
If your wizard worships Nethys, you can also pick up the Clever Wordplay and Underlying Principles traits to get Use Magic Device as a class skill based on your INT instead of your CHA for use with wands for spells from other classes to better offset the inherent weakness of a low-level wizard.
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As far as the sorcerer vs. the wizard at low levels, I see the sorcerer being no better then the wizard at low levels because, well..lets compaire..The wizard has three spells per-day after factoring in intelligence, and two school powers. One of these is usually a passive ability or non-attack and one of them is typically an attack of some kind. The sorcerer has 4 spells per-day after factoring in charisma, has a bloodline arcana that is usually a passive ability/non-attack and one attack. Both have cantrips. Comparatively, the sorc seems SLIGHTLY ahead of the wizard due to having 1 more 1st level spell per-day....but here is the catch...those attack features I mentioned? The wizards are, usually, better then the sorcerer's. Reason? Almost ALL the sorc attack bloodline powers are range: touch while the wizard ones are sometimes rays. In fact, baring the wildblooded silvan animal companion and the arcane bloodline's arcane bond, I'd safely say that wizard school's 1st level abilities are better then pretty much all of the 1st level bloodline powers(But not arcana...there are some VERY nice bloodline arcana) sorcs get(the vast bulk of which are craptastic touch range attacks or dumb melee abilities like claws.) Most sorc bloodline powers obtained at 1st level are things I would -never- use in combat as a caster while some of the wizard school powers I can at least see myself using some of the time.
Taking that into consideration, and the fact that sorcs have -limited- spells known, the sorc is, in my opinion, no better or no worse then the wizard at low levels. Especially considering that both the wis and the sorc have so few spells per day at that point that most of combat will be spent going "I shoot it with my light crossbow for 1d6 damage.....and miss." Meanwhile, the witch will be throwing hexes around left and right and feeling like she's actually a spellcaster without actually casting her limited spells and the oracle will probably have something cool to do with their revelations and won't be -as- squishy as you with his D8 HD and medium armor....meaning if nothing else he can buff the party fighters by going into melee and attacking to aid another instead of doing crappy damage with his mace like you are forced to do with your ranged weapon. Of course, at higher levels, if you make it there...you are king, moresoe then the witch or even the Oracle depending on your views...but it's a painful road to that point if you don't have a reliable, stable party that you know will play to your strengths.
Also, while inquisitor is cool, it's wisdom-based, and due to my IRL wisdom score I cannot RP high wisdom unless I have ample time to think through and analyze, scrutinize and review my every word and action..before I say or take it...a luxury PF society doesn't provide. (My IRL wisdom would, honestly, be an 8 or 7....to give you an idea.)
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So what class would you suggest, then? Are you saying witch is generally not worth it in the end? And only -three- combat encounters? That's it? And diplomacy can get you out of some of them? Are you sure such a figure is not just an outlier and NOT the norm? I heard that PFS was mostly combat-oriented and that most of your time was spent fighting stuff...that seemed to be the general opinion of everybody I talked to and everything I read...