Trail Rations, why do we need them


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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No seriously, if you have wisdom modifier of 0 and have 0 survival skill, you can just simply take 10 to find your own food, unless I'm missing something. Survival is not trained only. I can understand not being able to use survival while trapped in a dungeon, but put 2 ranks into it or make wisdom 12 and put 1 rank into it, then take 10 before you are in the dungeon, you provide for 2 people, or at least for yourself for this day and the next. Or be trained in survival


I think you've got the long and the short of it: Trail rations are for areas where you're going to be spending multiple days in an area where hunting is scarce-to-nonexistent, or where you can't take 10 on survival because the area is just too dangerous (Kingmaker, anyone?).

But every AP has such areas:
Rise of the Runelords: Most of books 5 and 6 occur in areas where foraging isn't practical, and you'll be spending days or weeks there.

Curse of the Crimson Throne: Books 4 and 5, and "mean" GMs might even include Book 3.

Carrion Crown: Book 6 for sure.

So in all the campaigns I've been in, they've been an, "In case we can't find something better," resource. But the GM can declare that "it's too dangerous to hunt", or just make you make an encounter roll while foraging (never fun). Or there are just plain areas that don't have food. Or your party may be in a rush so that foraging just doesn't work.

Consider:
- On board a ship
- In a desert, frozen tundra, or other inhospitable terrain
- In a dungeon or major city (meals at taverns cost more than rations)
- In a hurry so hunting isn't practical.

Trail rations have their place, especially for low-level characters who might not have the luxury of taking half a day to take 10 on Survival to feed themselves. "You can eat, or you can adventure. Take your pick."

EDIT: And readers can yell at me to "Spoiler!" all they want; pointing out that you're going to need trail rations while exploring Scarwall is not exactly a mind-blowing revelation.

Grand Lodge

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DoubleGold wrote:
No seriously, if you have wisdom modifier of 0 and have 0 survival skill, you can just simply take 10 to find your own food, unless I'm missing something. Survival is not trained only. I can understand not being able to use survival while trapped in a dungeon, but put 2 ranks into it or make wisdom 12 and put 1 rank into it, then take 10 before you are in the dungeon, you provide for 2 people, or at least for yourself for this day and the next. Or be trained in survival

You're not always going to be in an environment where you have stuff to forage.

You're not always going to have the time to spare... especially if you're chasing someone or trying to beat another group to the same objective.


So I assume if you roll for survival instead of taking 10, you spend a lot less time for the food, since taking 10 applies if not rushed.

As far as on board a ship, buy fishing supplies? I don't see rules on how that works, but I do see that supplies can be bought for fishing.


Er, it's not taking 10 that's the problem... it's that Survival doesn't always apply, or isn't always practical at the moment.

The core rulebook doesn't list options for "fast survival": There is no listed way to move more than half your normal move and still gather food. So your original statement that every Joe Schmoe with 10 WIS can survive in the wild and still travel is correct, although that makes those of us who have actually spent time in the wilderness wince. (Survival at sea is another pain point -- why did all those silly explorers in the 1500's and 1600's bother to carry food and water on their ships? Were they all WIS 8 or less? According to the rules, yes. Yes they were.)

The problem is that there are many, many places that the GM will state that there isn't enough game to hunt or berries to gather and will disallow the roll at all, or will apply an arbitrary penalty that can get quite large.

Of course, you could argue with your GM that the book simply states, "In the wild," and says nothing about there needing to be any resources at all. I think you will succeed in little but making your GM grumpy.

So by RAW, a WIS 10 character can always find enough food and water to survive "in the wild", no matter where that happens to be (polar ice caps, here I come!) just by moving half distance for the day.

I don't know any GM that would run a "harsh wilderness" campaign and let that pass, though.

(The obsessive-compulsive in me just realized that I have the GM's Guide a short walk away, so let me see what it says about such things...)

EDIT: The PRD section on exploration lists the survival DC for finding food and water as +5 in a "Difficult Desert", so your take 10 is gone, but it really doesn't take much to make those trail rations obsolete, does it?


Why doesn't it tell you that in the survival skill? It seems I always have really hunt the rules down to figure stuff out. A lot of people who I played under don't always know the dming rules, no wonder, you have to really hunt the rules down sometimes. It does not say under the survival skill that you move half your speed when using certain checks, other than track. Which I'm assuming you spot food along your travels, and it only slows you down, not by half, but by a tiny bit to go over and get it, like a negligible amount since it doesn't say so in the skill description. Edit: Okay, it does, but you can always find food while the party rests, like take 1 hour out of your sleep or while they stop for an hour, you find food and argue that you can still move your full speed because of stops that you would take anyway.

Also, I know for a fact I would not be able to survive in the wild, well maybe if I get lucky and find an apple tree or a big berry tree, but I would starve. Are you saying I have Wis 8? I've always defined 10 as the human average. I'm pretty sure lots of people would not be able to survive, are we saying they all have Wis 8? Or are we saying the DC is techically higher? Like if you were stranded on a deserted island, would the DC really be 10?


DoubleGold wrote:
Why doesn't it tell you that in the survival skill? It seems I always have really hunt the rules down to figure stuff out.

Welcome to the wonderful world that is Pathfinder.

We've been playing for a bit over 2 years now, and we're still suffering the whole, "Where do I find that rule?" syndrome.
The best resource we've found is to have one person with a smartphone or tablet accessing the PRD at all times. The PRD is pretty good when it comes to searching for such stuff. But yeah, lots of fundamental, "How do I roleplay this out?" stuff gets missed.

My personal favorite? You arrive at a vile temple of Shog-Whatshisname. You have a high-level cleric. You want to permanently desecrate the temple so it can never again be used to worship this abomination.
So, what do you do? Consecreate lasts only 2 hours per caster level. Smashing things seems utterly juvenile. But that's it. There are no rules on permanently shutting down evil temples. Oops.

DoubleGold wrote:
A lot of people who I played under don't always know the dming rules, no wonder, you have to really hunt the rules down sometimes. It does not say under the survival skill that you move half your speed when using certain checks, other than track. Which I'm assuming you spot food along your travels, and it only slows you down, not by half, but by a tiny bit to go over and get it, like a negligible amount since it doesn't say so in the skill description. Edit: Okay, it does, but you can always find food while the party rests, like take 1 hour out of your sleep or while they stop for an hour, you find food and argue that you can still move your full speed because of stops that you would take anyway.

Yeah, the way I read it as a GM is that you need to spend 6 hours "surviving" to get the food. If you can spend that time while the rest of the party is doing something else (for example, you have a Ring of Sustenance), then you're good.

DoubleGold wrote:
Also, I know for a fact I would not be able to survive in the wild, well maybe if I get lucky and find an apple tree or a big berry tree, but I would starve. Are you saying I have Wis 8? I've always defined 10 as the human average. I'm pretty sure lots of people would not be able to survive, are we saying they all have Wis 8? Or are we saying the DC is techically higher? Like if you were stranded on a deserted island, would the DC really be 10?

I think that's an issue with lots of the DCs set in the core rulebook: They just needed to get the book out, and didn't think them through. Putting the DC to stay alive in a wooded area with plenty of game at 15 would make sure you had to take some training. Honestly, it's not that hard to survive; you can take a 1-2 day survival course and you'll be ready to survive in a simple, heavily-wooded-with-lots-of-game environment. At that point, the +5 for a desert would make sense; someone invested a lot of ranks to be able to take 10 and hit a DC 20, and so they'd have learned about evaporators, eating scorpions, and the other stuff you need to know to survive in a really harsh desert or arctic climate.

My honest answer: I think they set all the Survival DCs about 5 too low. It's amazing how easy it is to find food in harsh environments, but you need to:
(a) Know what to look for
(b) Be willing to eat it

So if you take all the suggestions in the Survival DC table and increase them by 5 I think you get a more reasonable picture of the world.

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In my experience, trail rations are usually just window dressing on a character sheet (as is a bedroll, winter blanket, tent, et cetera).

But I've run games where characters are stranded in a desert, where they have to book it across country to warn people of an approaching army, and even one where a thief character camped out for several days in a palace's secret passageway. In all those situations, keeping track of rations becomes relevant.

Silver Crusade

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Take them for the role playing immersion experience, same thing as your tent and bedroll. Are you getting a numerical benefit for spending the gold pieces for a bedroll? No, but when it comes time to make camp, would a real adventurer neglect all these things "because the rules don't provide a negative?" Even a cleric might bring them on the off chance they cannot safely renew spells. It's about putting yourself into the game regardless of a mechanical rule justifying your decision.

Liberty's Edge

How about you find starving prisoners? You going to leave the dungeon and hunt food for them? Also useful for making friends in certain cases.


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Let me try approaching that question from the other side. In the low-to-mid levels, would you spend 5sp/day to double your overland movement speed?

That is essentially what trail rations are giving you compared to using the Survival skill to forage as you go.


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This is one of those things like mundane ammunition I just assume people have unless plot circumstances would indicate that they don't.

Sczarni

Also: there are scenarios that you are not alone. If you are responsible for and entire trade caravan's food, do you want to risk them going hungry on a bad die roll? Sick on 2-3 in a row? How about when you're on a sailing ship and the 20 sailors are too busy to fish after a hurricane floods the kitchen and spoils the meat? You find some orphans and need to care for them until you get back to civilization. Things like this. Also trail rations are a defined medium. You know what you could do with them. You know it may be foreign to tribesmen and can be used as trade, local game might not.


If you have an encounter while traveling then you probably cannot take 10 on your survival roll to forage. Ina similar vein, if my players tried foraging instead of buying food I would ban the take 10 option if there was a chance of a random encounter, keeping an eye out for encounters is a distraction from foraging.


cnetarian wrote:
If you have an encounter while traveling then you probably cannot take 10 on your survival roll to forage. Ina similar vein, if my players tried foraging instead of buying food I would ban the take 10 option if there was a chance of a random encounter, keeping an eye out for encounters is a distraction from foraging.

I think that's rather silly, actually.

Let's start by noting that a typical encounter takes less than a minute out of a day of which 8-12 hours are spent traveling. A random encounter is no more of a distraction from foraging than stopping to relieve oneself.

And the idea that because you're keeping an eye out for berries, you can't also keep an eye out for bugbears... what, you've got specialist eyes that can only look for one thing?

The main disadvantage to foraging is that it takes time; it's essentially stopping to look at every bush in case it has edible berries on it, or every plant in case it might be a wild onion. Strider dealt with this rather effectively in The Fellowship of the Ring; although he could easily have provided food for the various hobbits, he felt it was more important to get to Rivendell quickly.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
cnetarian wrote:
If you have an encounter while traveling then you probably cannot take 10 on your survival roll to forage. Ina similar vein, if my players tried foraging instead of buying food I would ban the take 10 option if there was a chance of a random encounter, keeping an eye out for encounters is a distraction from foraging.

I think that's rather silly, actually.

Let's start by noting that a typical encounter takes less than a minute out of a day of which 8-12 hours are spent traveling. A random encounter is no more of a distraction from foraging than stopping to relieve oneself.

And the idea that because you're keeping an eye out for berries, you can't also keep an eye out for bugbears... what, you've got specialist eyes that can only look for one thing?

The main disadvantage to foraging is that it takes time; it's essentially stopping to look at every bush in case it has edible berries on it, or every plant in case it might be a wild onion. Strider dealt with this rather effectively in The Fellowship of the Ring; although he could easily have provided food for the various hobbits, he felt it was more important to get to Rivendell quickly.

Taking 10 requires you not to be in danger while performing the task or be distracted.

Being attacked is called out in the rules as preventing taking 10. While combat (and it's aftermath) might take a small portion of the time devoted to making a survival check to forage that small potion of time is enough to break your concentration on finding food.

I wouldn't rule characters couldn't make a survival roll to forage when there is a possibility of encounters, but that they cannot take 10 which is a rule for when one's attention can be focused solely on the task at hand. You can keep an eye out for bugbears and berries at the same time, but you cannot devote all your attention looking for berries if some of your attention is spent looking for bugbears.


Charlie Brooks wrote:

In my experience, trail rations are usually just window dressing on a character sheet (as is a bedroll, winter blanket, tent, et cetera).

But I've run games where characters are stranded in a desert, where they have to book it across country to warn people of an approaching army, and even one where a thief character camped out for several days in a palace's secret passageway. In all those situations, keeping track of rations becomes relevant.

Yeah, that's how I see it, also. Normally I'm not going to give a hoot about things like rations beyond the issue of encumbrance. I assume you use them as needed, replenish as needed, they're not worth tracking.

However, once in a while when things aren't usual they'll matter and woe to the character that's unprepared.


Rations are good so you don't have to forage for food as that slows you down to 1/2 your speed. So if it take 3 weeks to ride from point A to B it will take 6 weeks if your forage. Packing ration speeds things up quite a bit.

Also as other pointed out you can't take 10 but really in a party of 4 all foraging someone is going to roll above a 10 and for every 2 points above 10 you feed another person. As well chances are good that one character has survival as class skill and can put 1 rank into to get +4 bonus before wisdom is applied which typically is at least a +1.

So it come down to speed really and it really only applies at low levels. Higher level spells and magic items make rations irrelevant for the most part.


NobodysHome wrote:


Welcome to the wonderful world that is Pathfinder.
We've been playing for a bit over 2 years now, and we're still suffering the whole, "Where do I find that rule?" syndrome.
The best resource we've found is to have one person with a smartphone or tablet accessing the PRD at all times. The PRD is pretty good when it comes to searching for such stuff. But yeah, lots of fundamental, "How do I roleplay this out?" stuff gets missed.

My personal favorite? You arrive at a vile temple of Shog-Whatshisname. You have a high-level cleric. You want to permanently desecrate the temple so it can never again be used to worship this abomination.
So, what do you do? Consecreate lasts only 2 hours per caster level. Smashing things seems utterly juvenile. But that's it. There are no rules on permanently shutting down evil temples. Oops.

Hallow?

The way I see the survival DCs is: different things are common knowledge. In our world there are all kinds of things that are common knowledge that wouldn't be known in a fantasy setting. Similarly, there are things most people would know there that we wouldn't. In a world where hunting and gathering is fairly common, I think it makes sense that everyone would have some general knowledge about it even without specific training.

Liberty's Edge

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Fist:
the GM can assign a modifier to the survival check DC. And they stack.
Base DC is for good condition in the best season.

Start to add:
bad weather
winter
harsh terrain
large number of people scaring away the preys
area where someone has already foraged
etc.

and your check isn't anymore so automatic.

Second:
it is 1 roll for party, with the aid another bonus (and you can't take 10 on an aid another check) if you want to keep your group together, so unless you make a good check only some of the party members will eat.

If you want to make a check for each member of the party you must split your party for the whole day. Good luck with those checks to avoid getting lost. And with wandering monsters.

Third:
Oh wait, you have got the flu. No problem, 3 days in bed and you will be like new, you are a big, tough adventurer. No food and you need to search for it while diseased? Ooops, you checks to recover don't have any bonus for bed rest and can even have some malus. (1st edition had you checking monthly against the chance of contracting a disease. pathfinder don't have that, but a DC 10 fortitude ST against the chance of getting a disease can be appropriate in an adventure where foraging become important).

Searching for food in a cold environment? Half speed for the +2 bonus to the saves against severe weather. halved again to forage. You have a few months to complete this adventure, right?

Fourth: if you are travelling and foraging you are distracted. You can take 10 while foraging if that is the only activity you take, not if hunt or forage while travelling. So if you take 10 to forage you don't move at all.

BTW, a large number of NPC has a wisdom of 8, at least reading the different APs and modules.


Bit of a tangent here, sorry:

NobodysHome wrote:

Welcome to the wonderful world that is Pathfinder.

We've been playing for a bit over 2 years now, and we're still suffering the whole, "Where do I find that rule?" syndrome.
(snip)
But yeah, lots of fundamental, "How do I roleplay this out?" stuff gets missed.

I think you're looking for "Rule 0" -- the GM, unilaterally or in discussion, is the source of any rule you need that's not written out.

In particular, questions that start, "How do I roleplay..." should *not* have a single specific rule, more often than not. Here, teh lack of A Rule is a feature, not a bug.

Quote:
There are no rules on permanently shutting down evil temples. Oops.

Great example! I'd consider permanently shutting down an evil temple to be a significant plot point -- as such, each such event is going to be unique, and the "how" of it should be uniquely tailored to the campaign by the GM. It's not as if you're dealing with an entry on a random encounter table that lists "1d4 evil temples". (Or, at least, if you are, I'd sincerely like to know more about your campaign!)

Think of it like a major NPC: there's no rule that tells you what the third sentence out of a 10th level NPC's mouth should be, and that's how it should be: it's going to be different in every single case (and vary depending on the actions of the PCs), and that's the reason you have a GM, rather than playing Risk.


Zathyr wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

My personal favorite? You arrive at a vile temple of Shog-Whatshisname. You have a high-level cleric. You want to permanently desecrate the temple so it can never again be used to worship this abomination.

So, what do you do? Consecrate lasts only 2 hours per caster level. Smashing things seems utterly juvenile. But that's it. There are no rules on permanently shutting down evil temples. Oops.
Hallow?

Not to run off with someone else's thread, but not only does Hallow cost 1,000 g.p. (OK, not that expensive in destroying a temple of evil), but it includes the wording: Hallow counters but does not dispel unhallow.

In other words, it explicitly calls out that Hallow's not good enough to permanently remove the evil taint; all it does is mask it.

I asked this in another thread, and the overall response involved smashing things and urination. Once again, not exactly the, "I am a holy priest of xxx and I know how to permanently exorcise this temple by doing yyy," answer I was looking for... I've been through the Exorcist and I do not recall seeing either Max von Sydow or Jason Miller urinate even once through the entire movie...


People need to remember the default story telling narrative is not player vs enviroment. Its player vs monster and the rules reflect this.

Secondly survival doesn't create food that doesn't exist the chart doesn't take any adverse condition inmind.

However in actual play the gamle adds the extra sruff just by that time magic compensates.

Sovereign Court

I think in the case of the temple, I'd follow the following thought process to come up with an answers.

1) The rules already state all the things you can CERTAINLY do (and certainly not do).

2) The rules don't automatically forbid other things from being possible, unless that's specifically called out. That which is not forbidden may be workable.

3) Sometimes the rules offer a solution, without mandating that it's the ONLY solution. In this case, be creative. If it's called out that there is only THIS ONE way to do it, then that's it.

So we have an actual rule that Hallow isn't sufficient. But if the party tore down the evil idols and pulverized them, channeled energy to burn away lingering profane energies, and sundered the focus of the Unhallow spell - well, then Hallow might do the trick.

Or if the players came up with another solution, well, let's hear it. I'll decide if it's sufficient. And if there's any doubt, let's see if they can roll well on a Religion check..


I dont carry rations because I eat the corpses of my enemies. ;-)


Daenar wrote:
I dont carry rations because I eat the corpses of my enemies. ;-)

Do you roleplay certain races that allow you to do this? Or do you bring along a knife to skin them, a cooking pot and fire to make meat?


So I guess what you can do to make sure you don't suffer movement speed from level 1.
Pick Human, speed 30. Take Wanderlust trait, overland speed +10.
40 speed. Pick Barbarian +10 movement speed. Pick fleet as a feet for +5. Fleet can be taken multiple times, so as your human bonus feat, pick fleet again for +5. Total speed 60, half speed 30, which covers most campaigns that don't use a horse for 50 as movement.
And if you really want to autosucceed the survival where it can be made
Make Wisdom 20 after racials if allowed, put 1 rank into survival. Surival is now 9 and the lowest you can roll is 1, worse case senario, you provide for yourself only.

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Yes, it is totally worth basing your racial trait and class choices around saving a few silver pieces per day.


DoubleGold wrote:

So I guess what you can do to make sure you don't suffer movement speed from level 1.

Pick Human, speed 30. Take Wanderlust trait, overland speed +10.
40 speed. Pick Barbarian +10 movement speed. Pick fleet as a feet for +5. Fleet can be taken multiple times, so as your human bonus feat, pick fleet again for +5. Total speed 60, half speed 30, which covers most campaigns that don't use a horse for 50 as movement.
And if you really want to autosucceed the survival where it can be made
Make Wisdom 20 after racials if allowed, put 1 rank into survival. Surival is now 9 and the lowest you can roll is 1, worse case senario, you provide for yourself only.

Or don't worry about every little detail.


Ross Byers wrote:
Yes, it is totally worth basing your racial trait and class choices around saving a few silver pieces per day.

It is more of a weight issue, they weight 1 pound a piece.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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DoubleGold wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Yes, it is totally worth basing your racial trait and class choices around saving a few silver pieces per day.
It is more of a weight issue, they weight 1 pound a piece.

Food is heavy (honestly, one pound/day is pretty minimal. Just try packing supplies for a camping trip on a weight budget of one pound/day/person.)

Do you need them? I guess not, since the Survival skill lets an average commoner survive in the woods by taking ten. Or at least, eat every other day if we assume 'hungry in the woods with no supplies' is stressful and thus precludes taking 10.

But If I were packing for an overland hike, or an excursion to hunt monsters in the wilderness, you can bet I'd pack some food, just as I'm going to bring a blanket and a bedroll. They might not be necessary, but I'm going to bring them because it is much easier to hike all day with a pack full of food, then have dinner ready than it is to:

1) Hike half the day, then spend 4 hours trying to catch a rabbit
2) Hike all day, but move half speed because I'm detouring by every edible bush
3) Some combination of the above that averages to 'half overland speed'

You can live off the land in real life, too. Doesn't change the fact that most hikers and campers bring canned goods, jerky, and trail mix. It's easier and it tastes better.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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To answer the original question, we need them for the same reason the game needs other items like waterskins, backpacks, bedrolls, mundane arrows, and torches.

Can you easily get rid of needing them? Yes. Do many groups handwave them or ignore them? Yes. But they are the kind of things it makes sense for adventurers, especially low level adventurers, to carry and equip themselves with. If you remove 'trail rations' from the book, then logically they should go too because someone will ask the same question.

Why do we need torches? There's always a spellcaster in the party who can cast light.

Why do I need a bedroll or blanket? There's no penalty for sleeping on the ground.

Why do I need a waterskin? I'll just create water at will into my cupped hands.

Why do I need to track mundane arrows? They're cheap enough for me to carry hundreds, and I take more off dead enemies.

Why do I need a backpack? If I just tie everything to my belt I can draw it as a move action instead.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Er, it's not taking 10 that's the problem... it's that Survival doesn't always apply, or isn't always practical at the moment.

The core rulebook doesn't list options for "fast survival": There is no listed way to move more than half your normal move and still gather food.

The ranger rides on, one hand dangling down and scooping up berries, edible roots, and small game as he goes.

5% chance of hedgehog.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

Er, it's not taking 10 that's the problem... it's that Survival doesn't always apply, or isn't always practical at the moment.

The core rulebook doesn't list options for "fast survival": There is no listed way to move more than half your normal move and still gather food.

The ranger rides on, one hand dangling down and scooping up berries, edible roots, and small game as he goes.

5% chance of hedgehog.

On a natural 1, game scoops up you.

Grand Lodge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

Er, it's not taking 10 that's the problem... it's that Survival doesn't always apply, or isn't always practical at the moment.

The core rulebook doesn't list options for "fast survival": There is no listed way to move more than half your normal move and still gather food.

The ranger rides on, one hand dangling down and scooping up berries, edible roots, and small game as he goes.

5% chance of hedgehog.

Sounds like your ranger is built like a giraffe. I'd like you to try scooping up berries from horseback.


LazarX wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

Er, it's not taking 10 that's the problem... it's that Survival doesn't always apply, or isn't always practical at the moment.

The core rulebook doesn't list options for "fast survival": There is no listed way to move more than half your normal move and still gather food.

The ranger rides on, one hand dangling down and scooping up berries, edible roots, and small game as he goes.

5% chance of hedgehog.

Sounds like your ranger is built like a giraffe. I'd like you to try scooping up berries from horseback.

I'll do it as soon as you survive a critical hit from a greataxe.

The Exchange

LazarX wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

Er, it's not taking 10 that's the problem... it's that Survival doesn't always apply, or isn't always practical at the moment.

The core rulebook doesn't list options for "fast survival": There is no listed way to move more than half your normal move and still gather food.

The ranger rides on, one hand dangling down and scooping up berries, edible roots, and small game as he goes.

5% chance of hedgehog.

Sounds like your ranger is built like a giraffe. I'd like you to try scooping up berries from horseback.

'

The horse is not going to let you steal his snack ;)


DoubleGold wrote:
Daenar wrote:
I dont carry rations because I eat the corpses of my enemies. ;-)
Do you roleplay certain races that allow you to do this? Or do you bring along a knife to skin them, a cooking pot and fire to make meat?

the latter.


Ross Byers wrote:

To answer the original question, we need them for the same reason the game needs other items like waterskins, backpacks, bedrolls, mundane arrows, and torches.

Can you easily get rid of needing them? Yes. Do many groups handwave them or ignore them? Yes. But they are the kind of things it makes sense for adventurers, especially low level adventurers, to carry and equip themselves with.

Yeah, but why bother with the tedious tracking? Just say 'you've got the basics unless circumstances dictate you wouldn't' and move on.


DoubleGold wrote:
Why doesn't it tell you that in the survival skill? ...
"PRD, under Survival in the Skill Descriptions" wrote:


Survival DC \\ Task

10 \\ Get along in the wild. Move up to half your overland speed while hunting and foraging (no food or water supplies needed). You can provide food and water for one other person for every 2 points by which your check result exceeds 10.

15 \\ Gain a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saves against severe weather while moving up to half your overland speed, or gain a +4 bonus if you remain stationary. You may grant the same bonus to one other character for every 1 point by which your Survival check result exceeds 15.

15 \\ Keep from getting lost or avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand.
15 \\ Predict the weather up to 24 hours in advance. For every 5 points by which your Survival check result exceeds 15, you can predict the weather for one additional day in advance.

I presume the table reads the same way in the hardcover.

Presumption not necessary. Page 107. It reads the same.


Daenar wrote:
I dont carry rations because I eat the corpses of my enemies. ;-)

The witch has you covered lol

Combine with Scarred Witch Doctor for more hilarity and possible gruesome-ness :P

Liberty's Edge

DoubleGold wrote:

So I guess what you can do to make sure you don't suffer movement speed from level 1.

Pick Human, speed 30. Take Wanderlust trait, overland speed +10.
40 speed. Pick Barbarian +10 movement speed. Pick fleet as a feet for +5. Fleet can be taken multiple times, so as your human bonus feat, pick fleet again for +5. Total speed 60, half speed 30, which covers most campaigns that don't use a horse for 50 as movement.
And if you really want to autosucceed the survival where it can be made
Make Wisdom 20 after racials if allowed, put 1 rank into survival. Surival is now 9 and the lowest you can roll is 1, worse case senario, you provide for yourself only.

And you are the only one foraging away from the party while the other party members move along the trail.

Good luck with the wandering encounters.

Liberty's Edge

Ross Byers wrote:


Why do we need torches? There's always a spellcaster in the party who can cast light.

I hope that caster has eschew materials. You know how many fireflies we would need to keep that light spell going for some reasonable length of time at low level?

I think that my current group had it cast at least 10 times a day every day when we were low level adventurers.

Shadow Lodge

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Zhayne wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:

To answer the original question, we need them for the same reason the game needs other items like waterskins, backpacks, bedrolls, mundane arrows, and torches.

Can you easily get rid of needing them? Yes. Do many groups handwave them or ignore them? Yes. But they are the kind of things it makes sense for adventurers, especially low level adventurers, to carry and equip themselves with.

Yeah, but why bother with the tedious tracking? Just say 'you've got the basics unless circumstances dictate you wouldn't' and move on.

Some people enjoy a bit more wilderness exploration / survival in their game. The CRB includes information on simple survival gear for these groups. You don't have to use it if you don't want to, but it's more convenient to have such basic elements there and ignored by half the tables than not there and have half the GMs just make something up.

You don't even have to be too precise about your tracking to want to include trail rations - you can have a player state that their character always carries one week's rations, and then if they are delayed in the wilderness for 10 days you know that they are going hungry. My group often isn't picky about rations, but we do keep track of in-game time which makes it easy to spot trips that drag on longer than planned.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Zhayne wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:

To answer the original question, we need them for the same reason the game needs other items like waterskins, backpacks, bedrolls, mundane arrows, and torches.

Can you easily get rid of needing them? Yes. Do many groups handwave them or ignore them? Yes. But they are the kind of things it makes sense for adventurers, especially low level adventurers, to carry and equip themselves with.

Yeah, but why bother with the tedious tracking? Just say 'you've got the basics unless circumstances dictate you wouldn't' and move on.

I acknowledged that option.


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Weirdo wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Yeah, but why bother with the tedious tracking? Just say 'you've got the basics unless circumstances dictate you wouldn't' and move on.

Some people enjoy a bit more wilderness exploration / survival in their game. The CRB includes information on simple survival gear for these groups. You don't have to use it if you don't want to, but it's more convenient to have such basic elements there and ignored by half the tables than not there and have half the GMs just make something up.

You don't even have to be too precise about your tracking to want to include trail rations - you can have a player state that their character always carries one week's rations, and then if they are delayed in the wilderness for 10 days you know that they are going hungry. My group often isn't picky about rations, but we do keep track of in-game time which makes it easy to spot trips that drag on longer than planned.

I have to agree with Weirdo -- I played a fighter who worshiped Cayden Cailean and he was constantly carrying 5 gallons of ale and 35 days of trail rations, just in case we had to have a party at some point.

I tracked it religiously, and it even ended up coming in handy because the GM gave us Diplomacy bonuses whenever Raj broke out the ale for an appropriate group...

So I personally had a lot of fun tracking it all. But I'm both obsessive-compulsive and a mathematician, so we all know I'm strange...


Ross Byers wrote:

To answer the original question, we need them for the same reason the game needs other items like waterskins, backpacks, bedrolls, mundane arrows, and torches.

Can you easily get rid of needing them? Yes. Do many groups handwave them or ignore them? Yes. But they are the kind of things it makes sense for adventurers, especially low level adventurers, to carry and equip themselves with. If you remove 'trail rations' from the book, then logically they should go too because someone will ask the same question.

Why do we need torches? There's always a spellcaster in the party who can cast light.

Why do I need a bedroll or blanket? There's no penalty for sleeping on the ground.

Why do I need a waterskin? I'll just create water at will into my cupped hands.

Why do I need to track mundane arrows? They're cheap enough for me to carry hundreds, and I take more off dead enemies.

Why do I need a backpack? If I just tie everything to my belt I can draw it as a move action instead.

very funny.

1. I use sunrods instead of torches, they are easier and better to use. Light spells lasts for a few minutes usually and is not likely at will.
2. I would impose a penalty for this if I was the DM. Actually sleep in something.
3. Create water uses up a level 0 spell, so really unless I'm a cleric or I'm making survival checks, I need water. Actually, I would create it in my mouth, not in my hands.
4. I track every ammunition I use and every money I use, down to the very copper.
5. If I was DM, I would say, backpack needed, you need to carry the stuff without it falling out, or at least some kind of sack even if wondrous. I don't enforce spacial issues, but it has to make sense on that part.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

So, just to be clear, you track your money to the last copper, but buy sunrods instead of torches, even though sunrods cost more. That's understandable: A sunrod casts more light and lasts 6 times as long, even if it costs two hundred times more. (Even if you never use a torch, the existence of them in the rules helps demonstrate why Sunrods are worth what they are, and what NPCs/Monsters/Impoverished people might use.)

But you don't see why it might be worth a handful of silver pieces to travel faster, or for your character to have tastier food to eat, or to have in an emergency?

Once again, I'm not saying jerky and hardtack is delicious, but that its preferable to eating whatever comes to hand in the wilderness. Sure, some days that will be spring water with fresh fish or rabbit, but other days it will mean under- or over-ripe berries and raw pine nuts, with some murky bog water.


DoubleGold wrote:
No seriously, if you have wisdom modifier of 0 and have 0 survival skill, you can just simply take 10 to find your own food, unless I'm missing something. Survival is not trained only. I can understand not being able to use survival while trapped in a dungeon, but put 2 ranks into it or make wisdom 12 and put 1 rank into it, then take 10 before you are in the dungeon, you provide for 2 people, or at least for yourself for this day and the next. Or be trained in survival

It literally stops being an issue once you have a 5th level Cleric, as they can use Create Food & Water. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-food-and-water

This said, this is one of those things that, as a GM, I just don't make players track. For the most part, it just pulls people out of being heroes and bogs them down in un-fun minutia. I get that there are groups that want a certain degree of realism in their game, I'm just not one of them. Non-magical ammunition (arrows, sling bullets, crossbow bolts, etc.)? Don't worry about tracking it. Food and water? Unless you're in the desert where it's "smack you over the head ridiculous" if you have ease of resources, don't worry about it.

Magical/rare composition (rare metals like cold iron, etc.) ammunition? Yes, track those. Those aren't limitless resources; +1 arrows cost an amount of gold that's staggering to the average commoner.


NobodysHome wrote:
I asked this in another thread, and the overall response involved smashing things and urination. Once again, not exactly the, "I am a holy priest of xxx and I know how to permanently exorcise this temple by doing yyy," answer I was looking for... I've been through the Exorcist and I do not recall seeing either Max von Sydow or Jason Miller urinate even once through the entire movie...

Yeah, an evil temple is used to dark deeds, it's hard to think of something inappropriate.

The one time my party ever tried it the altar was smoking, they tried a create water. Unfortunately for them they hadn't done their research, what they *THOUGHT* (the only reason they thought so was it was smoking) was an evil temple was actually a temple to a deity of elemental fire. I had the altar explode hard enough to hurt but not enough to kill anyone. (The whole thing was not intended as anything more than scenery, I had to make it up on the fly.)

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