Idk, skills are always big in my games, heck people jump at playing the rogue lol. Even at high levels, epic skill checks are still in play; leaping to other buildings, climbing a rockslide, activating an artifact/McGuffin, IMHO skill checks are important encounters to highlight why they should take max ranks in something. I remember one of my players joking about a PC who took max ranks in climb in a city campaign... until he climbed a literal rockslide to get after the cleric who caused it, up a mountain no less.
Idk, skills are always big in my games, heck people jump at playing the rogue lol. Even at high levels, epic skill checks are still in play; leaping to other buildings, climbing a rockslide, activating an artifact/McGuffin, IMHO skill checks are important encounters to highlight why they should take max ranks in something. I remember one of my players joking about a PC who took max ranks in climb in a city campaign... until he climbed a literal rockslide to get after the cleric who caused it, up a mountain no less.Two iconic users of epic level skills. Legolas in the Hobbit (the movie) using Acrobatics to bounce on bobbing dwarf heads, while shooting his bow over river rapids. Drizzt literally ran over a rock slide, using the tumbling rocks as his foot holds in Sojourn. (though he was using a weakened levitate to help. But, a high level skill wouldn't need the levitate at all!)
Exactly! You totally get where I'm coming from; sometimes skills get relegated to a backseat because of lack of scope of imagination. One skill encounter/game session at least is a good start, rotating between players is a must though, and be sure not to let skill monkeys steal others spotlight in the skill encounters either, although it's ok to give more to them.
I think it is even more intellectually insulting to say that magic counters skill use, when magic has easy counters that doesn't affect skill use.Seriously, everyone who says skills are useless are concentrating on a campaign that makes such skills uselessKnock that off. Its as insulting as it is patently untrue.
Insulting to whom? There is no insult there. "Well you're doing it too!" isn't a conversation its a playground shouting match. Your response makes no sense. You're just flailing for a retort, not an argument.
You are presuming to know how people play. You are trying to tell people that you know what goes on at their table better than they do. You are completely ignoring what people are saying about how folks are using spells, why they're using spells, and how the spells roflcopter the skill ranks in order to tell people that they're doing it wrong.
I think it is even more intellectually insulting to say that magic counters skill use, when magic has easy counters that doesn't affect skill use.Seriously, everyone who says skills are useless are concentrating on a campaign that makes such skills uselessKnock that off. Its as insulting as it is patently untrue.
Insulting to whom? There is no insult there. "Well you're doing it too!" isn't a conversation its a playground shouting match. Your response makes no sense. You're just flailing for a retort, not an argument.
You are presuming to know how people play. You are trying to tell people that you know what goes on at their table better than they do. You are completely ignoring what people are saying about how folks are using spells, why they're using spells, and how the spells roflcopter the skill ranks in order to tell people that they're doing it wrong.
Here's a question: if one were to use a spell to win a skill encounter, was it worthwhile to have included it?
I say, sure as long as the player felt he accomplished something then it was totally 100% worth it to me as a GM. Plus I'm not removing a fun facet of the game for the "Mundies" without spells, I feel like scrapping them "because mages can" is taking a vital part of the game away, I don't care if mages can via spells, let them, especially if they were smart enough to book a spell that was relevant at the moment. The only potential problem I see is maybe a spotlight hog mage stealing the skill players schtick, he should totally let the fighter climb instead of summoning an earth elemental, should let the diplomat do that instead of using enchantments; it comes down to not stepping on your friend's toes.
Still having problems quoting people, don't mind that, please.
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Except it specifically says in the first line it doesn't. The second line requires that a second spell be cast. You can rule otherwise, but that interpretation seems weak at best. And again, low level guards are gonna have terrible Will and your casting stat is going to be your best stat. Tack on Heighten (might as well since it last for days) and those guards don't have a prayer.
Should the guards actually succeed they are just going to get charmed/dominated/killed before anyone knows whats going on.
I think there is a difference between a standard detect magic spot check an area, and an item actively being examined by the same spell.
Certainly, the Detect Magic Spell will not detect an item with Magic Aura on it, not it in its 1st round look see. On the other hand, it is a lot different when the person is handling the item and _really_ looking at it, where as, it counts as being 'Similarly examined'.
Assuming you go with the three round use of detect magic, I would ask if the gate guards really going to spend half a minute examining every single item that passes through the gate on the off chance that it might be magical.
Gate Guard: Take off your shoes, socks, pants, shirt, underwear, and any jewelry or other personal effects. I'll also need to inspect every single one of the 100 cabbages on your cart, as well as the cart itself, the harness, and animals. If you're lucky, you'll finally be allowed into the city sometime next week.
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Yeah, this "secure" city is going to be a slowly dying dead end that no-one visits for any reason. And it's still wide open to infiltration by a 6th level party.
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Again, I think you are missing the point of a customs area, which isn't to identify every item from every person passing through, but as a threat of possible discovery of contraband items, where that potential discovery can break a person and imprison them. Strangers are going to be looked at. People with writs of passage get a free pass.
It isn't 100‰, heck its closer to 10% discovery. However, there is a chance of discovery that, since the party are strangers and equipped in a threatening attire, will be scrutinized off to the side, while local traffic is unimpeded. The more often the party uses that tactic, the better chance it will eventually occur to Murphy to take note.
With low-level magic, being a familiar face with a writ of passage is trivially easy.
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It's not so much that skills are USELESS as that they simply don't do nearly enough for the investment, and are very quickly and easily eclipsed by spells.
Which isn't a problem with the skills rules, but with the spells.
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Which isn't a problem with the skills rules, but with the spells.
Either way, it's a problem.
Kyrt and others advocate buffing skills so that they keep pace with magic. I'm OK with that.
The "Golarion-TSA" people are, indirectly, advocating nerfing magic (but for some reason don't want to actually do it with houserules, so they contrive elaborate scenarios instead, to the same end result). In any event, as you point out, nerfing spells is also a valid approach.
In either case, there's a clear imbalance that people are trying to correct. I don't think either approach is "better," and a mix is certainly possible as well, but what I don't like is staring at this kind of imbalance and pretending it's not there.
The "Golarion-TSA" people
I was Googling this today and I found a fun* story.
The first scene we witnessed on the day of our arrival was the boarding by customs agents, in the name of the governor of [Alexandria], to inspect the entire cargo.
All Muslim passengers appeared in turn; the agents recorded their names, descriptions, and countries of origin. Each one was questioned about the goods he was transporting and the currency he was carrying, in order to collect the zakat [tax for charitable purposes levied against certain possessions of Muslims that had not been used for a year], without bothering to find out whether or not a year had passed since he had taken possession. Most of the passengers had undertaken this voyage only to fulfill the obligation of pilgrimage and had only brought along provisions for the voyage . . . . Then the Muslims were ordered to disembark their baggage and remaining provisions. On shore, they met agents who took charge of bringing them to customs and carrying all their things. Then they were called one by one, and each one presented his baggage to the crowd. All the baggage was searched, whether it was of any value or not, and it was all jumbled together. Agents stuck their hands under belts to find anything that might be hidden there. Passengers were asked to swear that they had nothing besides what had been found. In the midst of this crush, a good deal of baggage disappeared, either stolen or lost in the crowd. Finally the Muslims were released after this terribly humiliating and degrading process.
It's worth noting though that the primary purpose of this customs post - like pretty much every other ancient and medieval customs post, whether legitimate, illegitimate, or a polite name for bandits - was to help themselves to travelers' stuff. Security was not the point.
*(if your idea of "fun" is "TSA")
Skills are less useless the more encounters you make a party go through. If you run a typical 4 encounter day, or worse the five minute adventuring day, skills really are eclipsed by spells.
I run my parties through 8-13 encounters a day using various tricks so they can't really rest. Besides doing a ton to balance classes (especially nova classes vs steady classes) it tends to make skills much more relevant, even at high levels.
Also, many skills work best when used with spells and vice versa. Disguing as an exact person of a different race, you probably want a good disguise skill with some kind of alter self and disguise spell.
Magic isn't really a limited resource after level 7 though. And it gets progressively less so.That really depends on how much the GM softballs things for spellcasters.
After that you really start needing to contrive situations so the party can't just teleport out and come back tommorow, or set up shop in a tiny combat hut.
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I run my parties through 8-13 encounters a day using various tricks so they can't really rest.
These tricks start to feel contrived if you use them too often, though, and their variety is not infinite. And when the casters get access to things like plane shift, magnificent mansion, and high-level divination spells, some of the tricks can start feeling very contrived indeed.
Most my players have been with me for several campaigns, so I don't think its that bad if you do it right. I also always ban mansion spells. My players know not to teleport away and teleport back in....bad things are bound to happen.
Granted, not everytime necessarily, but the fear of it happening is enough to stop it a large amount of the time.
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Lol why not? Your party gets a rest and the government does its due diligence.all they need is to put visitors up in a holding in for a few days after initial searches and they are now more likely to catch anything they missed beforeAre you seriously, with a straight face, suggesting this s+~~?That would destroy trade for the government.
It basically takes verisimilitude, turns it over its knee, spanks it until it's bottom turns blue, steals its lunch money, and blackens its eye for good measure.
More fun facts:
The Ley rules on pre-emption may also be revealing about London’s early merchant community. When the Lotharingian wine fleet docked in London, no merchant of London was allowed aboard ship to trade for two ebbs and a flood tide except to buy the customary sample of ‘tap-wine’ for a penny. Anyone who ignored this rule risked paying a forty-shilling fine to the king. The same fine is found in other former Anglo-Saxon royal ports. It was intended to ensure that goods were not concealed from the king’s officers so that the correct tolls and customs were levied.
Early medieval port customs, tolls, and controls on foreign trade (page 340)
I also always ban mansion spells. My players know not to teleport away and teleport back in....bad things are bound to happen.
So, in short, you realize that skills and spells are unbalanced, and you balance them by nerfing spells -- which is one of the main two methods we've been talking about.
Frankly, if I was in charge of any settlement that could afford it, I would have a permanent anti-magic field over every entrance. Then the guards can just watch for the appearance of invisible people or the sudden changes brought on by people changing shape, etc.
Frankly, if I was in charge of any settlement that could afford it, I would have a permanent anti-magic field over every entrance. Then the guards can just watch for the appearance of invisible people or the sudden changes brought on by people changing shape, etc.
Teleport, flight, and burrowing would love words with your plan.
Maybe he means to spend a bazillion gold to build a Dimension Lock'ed city inside an AMF Bubble? And then he'll hope no caster is capable of casting Aroden's Spell Bane.
Yes, Dodge and Mobility, but most Acrobatics characters will have it.Total defense is +6 not +10. To get +10 you have to waste two feats on Dodge and Mobility which are generally terrible. Given your AC is probably around 20 it is still hitting you with a power attack on a 12. Also you sacrifice an entire round doing basically nothing.
God forbid this is something actually dangerous at this level like a Purple Worm.
Will they? I don't remember the last time I saw anyone take those feats with any character, and while I may be considered a dirty munchkin by some, most players I know are far more reasonable.
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I play games along the lines of what is fun
ORLY? YOU DON'T SAY? HOW UNIQUE!
I, for one, hate RPGs and hate having fun. Unfortunately, I also despise everyone, myself included, so I play PF as a means to make my life more miserable.
/sarcasm
¬¬'
If you think wasting your feats is fun ... knock yourself out.
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Total defense is +6 not +10. To get +10 you have to waste two feats on Dodge and Mobility which are generally terrible. Given your AC is probably around 20 it is still hitting you with a power attack on a 12. Also you sacrifice an entire round doing basically nothing.
God forbid this is something actually dangerous at this level like a Purple Worm.
Yes, Dodge and Mobility, but most Acrobatics characters will have it.
Opse, forgot the +1 AC from Dodge. So, A fire Giant's Attack Modifier Becomes effectively +0. AC would include Studded Leather +3, Dex +5, Dodge +1, Full Defense +6, Mobility +4, which ends up having an AC 31, or The Fire Giant having an attack bonus of +11, will require a natural 19-20 to hit with their best weapon, Great Sword, or a natural 20 on a Power Attack.
That is pretty good odds.
So,... why did you waste all those skill points on Acrobatics, then? If you are relying on your AC not to be hit, why not simply man up and move to wherever you want to be? I'm still not seeing how ten skill points makes much of a difference.
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Yes, Dodge and Mobility, but most Acrobatics characters will have it.
Opse, forgot the +1 AC from Dodge. So, A fire Giant's Attack Modifier Becomes effectively +0. AC would include Studded Leather +3, Dex +5, Dodge +1, Full Defense +6, Mobility +4, which ends up having an AC 31, or The Fire Giant having an attack bonus of +11, will require a natural 19-20 to hit with their best weapon, Great Sword, or a natural 20 on a Power Attack.
That is pretty good odds.
Your maths seems completely off here, you seem to be adding to your AC and simultaneously subtracting from the giants attack bonus. With your set up you have an ac of:
10 base +6armour +5dex +1dodge +6full defense +4mobility for 32
Its attack bonus is still +21, 18 with power attack so it still has a good chance of hitting you. If we are talking about a purple worm then it is biting and grabbing you at +25 leading to certain death.
Also you are doing all of this at half speed unless you invest even more resources into the Fast Tumbler talent or you take a -10 making failure pretty much certain.
Tumbling doesn't work, even for exceptionally specialised characters.
And I would have gotten away with it if weren't for you meddling kids and your math to!
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And I would have gotten away with it if weren't for you meddling kids and your math to!
+1
Not really, though. Even if Shain can pull another +20 AC out of thin air, all that proves is that if you have a high enough AC, you won't be hit. I can easily make a monk that the fire giant can't touch, one that can wander around the battlefield delivering candy eggs to all the giants ('cause he sure ain't gonna be able to attack for ----).
But he's not going to be doing that on the basis of his awesome Acrobatics skill. An AC of 40 is an AC of 40, irrespective of how many skill ranks you have.
Secret to rogue AC by level 10
Normal WBL, high dex max magic armor.
Receive buff spells like barkskin and mage armor.
Prebuff: AC: 22 = 10 + 7 dex + 1 def + 1 nat + 1AC + 2enh || touch: 18
Postbuff: AC: 28 = 10 + 7 dex + 1 def + 4 nat + 4AC + 2enh || touch: 18
If your rogue wildshapes into an air elemental that AC goes up to 32 :P
Secret to rogue AC by level 10
Normal WBL, high dex max magic armor.
Receive buff spells like barkskin and mage armor.
Prebuff: AC: 22 = 10 + 7 dex + 1 def + 1 nat + 1AC + 2enh || touch: 18
Postbuff: AC: 28 = 10 + 7 dex + 1 def + 4 nat + 4AC + 2enh || touch: 18
If your rogue wildshapes into an air elemental that AC goes up to 32 :P
Add +4 from Mobility and +6 from total defense if you need them, which gives you AC 38, so you're almost there against the fire giant.
.... which still raises the question, what is Acrobatics supposed to be doing for you, again?
I suppose you could also invest in something like boots of elvenkind -- you know, magic -- to boost your skills as well as boosting your AC. But I'm not sure that this is a good way of showing how awesome skillz are and how they totally rock magic.
Your post buff AC28 is hit on a 3 by the purple worm, an 8 if it power attacks. A power attack bite from the thing deals about 40 damage on average, probably more than half your total HP and auto grabs you. You die on the next round.
Also you cannot wild shape, your UMD druid vestment trick doesn't work. You could have used a scroll of elemental body I but suddenly you lose all your armour bonus to AC and your weapons meld into your new form.
Purple worm is +2 CR and has two attacks. Of course it should be able to hit. The party is fighting 1-2 of those.
Frankly, if I was in charge of any settlement that could afford it, I would have a permanent anti-magic field over every entrance. Then the guards can just watch for the appearance of invisible people or the sudden changes brought on by people changing shape, etc.Teleport, flight, and burrowing would love words with your plan.
If I were creating a lawful totalitarian kind of state, I would, as stated above, simply handout badges to people when they enter the city. Caught in the city without a badge, such as appearing out of nowhere, straight to jail with you...and burrowing...really, no one would notice that! Besides that is why flooded undead infested dungeons exist. :)
Of course there is an answer for everything, but in a magical world, magic should be accounted for. This does not mean that smart or high level players won't be able to find a way around most things, just like smugglers and bandits have been doing in the real world forever.
Granted, I tend to approach adventuring from a mindset outside the dungeon environment, where forcing encounters like that (before magic can tell the GM to go play in the corner unless he houserules around it) is probably going to be a lot more feasible.
If you're just wandering from point A to point B, more than one or two fights a day strains credibility. There's just not that much stuff out there,... and if there's so much stuff out there that you can't go four hours before getting jumped, no one is going out there without treating it as a major undertaking.
Conversely, a dungeon is something can be predicted. You know you're going in, you know where it is, and you probably know more or less what to expect -- if you don't, wait twenty-four hours and figure it out.
It's really the difference, in military terms, between offense and defense. Defense was defined by Clausewitz as "awaiting the blow," and it basically means that you're prepared for trouble, but you're not specifically expecting it at any one time or any one point. A typical merchant caravan going through bandit territory would be on defense, since they don't know when or even if they're going to get raided, and so would the town guard for the same reason.
Offense, of course, is where you're delivering the blow, so you know exactly where and how you'll attack and can prepare as much as you like.
Those are two entirely different tactical puzzles. 8-12 encounters in a day is perfectly reasonable if you're on the offense, but you also know about it and buffed -- or scrolled, wanded, potioned, whatever -- appropriately. 8-12 encounters when you're on defense is unbelievably rare, because it basically means that 8 different groups decided to attack you on that same day.