With Leadership you make the character so there's nothing stopping you (besides the DM houseruling it) from going all out and optimizing a crafter by pumping Spellcraft through the roof. A familiar with the Valet archetype (iirc) also would let him craft faster.
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Sounds like you need to have a chat with your DM. He may simply not want you to craft anything at all.
Ask him if that is the case. And if it is, ask if you could trade your crafting feat for something and just drop the whole thing completely.
I've played with a GM like that, he wanted to run a very low magic campaign, and got adversarial about magic item crafting instead of people just coming to an agreement it got uncomfortable for a bit.
Just chat it out, openly, with your GM. Be straight to the point but not confrontational. Ask what the deal is, if he wants the generation of magic gear to be solely in his control, and if so... if you can simply give up the crafting feat so that the control is returned to him.
Also be sure to remind him that stuff will get ugly if you don't have the right tools to face the challenges that come your way. But if he runs low magic games frequently enough, he already knows this and is working with that understanding already when building challenges.
If the GM is going to insist on low magic he will have to adjust the monsters to make up for the difference or give the characters inherent bonuses. Otherwise things might not work out.
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It seems pretty clear that your DM doesn't want the party to have magic items beyond what he gives them (even if he doesn't admit it), so tell him that you get the messge and want to change your feat for something that you can actually use.
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If he wanted a low magic campaign then he probably prepared himself for it..that said - he might have overlooked some details and it appears that PCs crafting magic items was one of them.
It all comes down to mutual understanding - it appears he's simply afraid of letting you craft magic items because it would damage the balance and overall feel of the campaign.
He's shown some good will in declaring he'd think about it, now you could show the same offering some self-limitations yourselves on what you would want to make and if such an item would be within your GMs range of acceptance (or "ok, that shouldn't break too many things" range)
Also if it's a low-magic setting I'd imagine making magic items shouldn't be a simple matter of sitting down and making a craft check. Offer that you'd want to have it as a quest - to gather unique materials, perform the right rituals at the right places and so on.
If he wanted a low magic campaign then he probably prepared himself for it..that said - he might have overlooked some details and it appears that PCs crafting magic items was one of them.
It all comes down to mutual understanding - it appears he's simply afraid of letting you craft magic items because it would damage the balance and overall feel of the campaign.
He's shown some good will in declaring he'd think about it, now you could show the same offering some self-limitations yourselves on what you would want to make and if such an item would be within your GMs range of acceptance (or "ok, that shouldn't break too many things" range)
Also if it's a low-magic setting I'd imagine making magic items shouldn't be a simple matter of sitting down and making a craft check. Offer that you'd want to have it as a quest - to gather unique materials, perform the right rituals at the right places and so on.
What he said.
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Ask your GM this: "Be honest. Do you want us to make magic items?"
If the answer is "no," then say "Then don't let us. Forbid crafting and let us rebuild our characters."
If you're humble and cooperative about it, he may throw you a bone once in awhile
I agree with all the above, you might want to reroll your crafting for something more useful, as for the cohort...
You may want to grab an alchemist cohort, for nearly instant potions (at higher levels) and alchemical creations (and possibly poisons), these will be cheap, help with a low magic gear, and since most of it is one time consumables it shouldn't unbalance your GM's game too much (d6's and temporary debuffs measured in rounds) (also tanglefoot bags, fun).
An Alchemist could also not be a full caster (or a big damage dealer depending on the archetype), but nonetheless a useful utility addition, race choice can affect this. The cohort alchemist could help with PC buffs (at the cost of player actions due to drawing and using potions and items), and be a useful skill monkey (intelligence based).
Could potentially be the best of both worlds for your low wealth situation.
If you are fighting more demons and undead, then the DR's, resistances, environments (fire, water, gasses?) and ability damages can be devastating to a party without wondrous item assistance. Hopefully your GM has adjusted for this already.
Myself when I run games I limit crafting to whether or not you can get your hands on crafting reagents.
If there is no surplus of arcane residue near you, how to you intend to use it to make magic items? You can take the crafting feats sure, but you have to actually buy the Arcane Residue/ Animal Brains/ Dragon's Blood that you will need to actually create the items which limits you to only being able to craft in highly magical places or really big cities.
The rules for Talisman Components are in Ultimate Campaign, and I really like them, it's so much better than having players randomly be able to spin gold into magic items. Not only that, but you also have to worry about transporting said magical reagents if you're the type that likes to travel and will want to make magic items as soon as you get cash.
I love the crafting rules and generally play crafters when given the chance. That said I don't get involved with it in games with any restrictions on it other than needing to buy things in a community of the correct size. Not being able to take 10 is going to add to your frustration significantly. I politely decline to join games set in low magic worlds because I think Pathfinder simulates high fantasy much better than it simulates low fantasy.
Well I don't allow taking 10 ether for magic item crafting but I do allow success on a 1. I like magic item crafting, but the cursed items have to come from somewhere.
Start taking things like this.
Personally, I think your GM is being a bit of a hard-@$$. If he was running a low-magic game as you'd said originally, I could understand him limiting your ability to make magic items. He should have said so beforehand that he doesn't want you to craft things.
Seeing as how you now say he's not running a low-magic game but instead a low wealth game, he should lessen his restrictions on crafting magic items as that is the ONLY way you'll stand a chance against the stuff you'll be facing soon.
Unless of course he's planning a big loot fest and wants y'all to appreciate it more when you finally find it. Otherwise, I wouldn't play under this GM.
I'd say your best options are:
1)Tell him you're retraining those feats since they are completely useless with the way he's running his game.
2)Take the feat that I listed above and try to find others that will help speed up the process.
3)Have that cohort stay in town and craft like crazy. Give him the feat I listed above and Skill Focus (whatever skill you're crafting with).
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+18 spellcraft is probably sufficient. As you said, you haven't got a lot of time for making big items anyway. If you've only got one +1 weapon right now your priority will be more +1 weapons, +2 stat boosters, minor cloaks of resistance. You just need to be selective about what you craft, particularly things that have lots of requirements. See if party members or a cohort can help you with crafting requirements, especially if they aren't crafters themselves. Then look at what you can safely craft and decide whether it's still worth it - and if not, ask your GM to replace the feat since you didn't know about the houserule saying you can't take 10.
Also consider getting yourself a Fortunate Charm if you can afford it.
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Every day.
If you're using spell slots, you need to expend one every day, which is no problem during downtime but can be a pain if you're crafting while adventuring.
If you're using a scroll to access a spell, you need one scroll per day of crafting. This is expensive, and witches, wizards, and magi will probably want to copy the scroll into their book/familiar instead and then cast it using slots.
If you're using a helper, they need to assist you for the entire duration of crafting (up to 8 hours a day).
Well I don't allow taking 10 ether for magic item crafting but I do allow success on a 1. I like magic item crafting, but the cursed items have to come from somewhere.
Bolded mine.
The bolded part is actually the rule and not a house rule iirc.@Question
While i understand the line of thinking "well with +18 spellcraft i can probably be able to make cheap magic items and while i would have issues with more expensive ones, i won't have the money for then anyway", i think that the best course of action is to ask to retrain the magic item creation feat, freely, since you have the risk of, simply, wasting your limited and precious wealth and time on a failed magic item.
And no cursed magic items aren't fun becuase most of the time you can detect them, iirc the DC for a cursed item is +10, you just have to double check or take 20 on your finished product to check if it's cursed or not.
I am currently running a similar "Low Magic" "Zombie apocolypes (but not with zombies)", Run-and-Gun campaign, but I did overlook the idea of the party crafting their own magic items. My party approached me with this idea first, knowing that Low Magic (in my mind), mean very little magic, in the way of casters, and/or magic items. I thought about it for a little while (the time before the next session), and told them that they could craft anything from the typical lists of crafting magic items, but I would be adding special materials to the list (ie, quests of sorts), so that they would legitimately have to "TRY" and craft things, instead of an basic DC check that resulted in magic items. I also told them if they wanted to trade their crafting feats for other feats, and crafting skills for other skills, they are more than welcome to, as I neglected to mention this prior.
They all seemed very accepting of this, as we were all on the same page when it came to keeping the campaign "Low Magic".
As I DM, I basically explained things using Lord of the Rings as an example . . . Crafting things is VERY hard, and that is why there is so little magic items in the game. I told them that their characters, and the items that they crafted will be similar to items in LoTR that are handed down through generations, as they are that rare. We all came to an agreement in the end.
This really isn't "advice", so much as it is my own personal experience with the same issue, that was resolved.
TTFN
--LKD
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Taking 10 is generally considered more of a convenience rule, so in the case of not allowing a Take 10 on crafting I'd say that it's fair.
No, take 10 is a risk-avoiding rule. It's used when a character wants to be confident they won't fail at something, and doesn't care about doing an extra-good job (getting an above average roll).
In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10).
You could rule that boats are distracting, but I don't think they're nearly as distracting as combat (the typical situation preventing taking 10).
Oh, and since magic item crafting follows its own set of rules that's different from mundane crafting, I don't think you can actually rush them by RAW. The magic item creation section makes no mention of rushing other than to say that you can't rush your work by spending more than 8 hours. Could be wrong about that, but specific trumping general and how magic item crafting is detailed elsewhere and not under the Craft skill, tells me that rushing isn't possible. It does allow for crafting while out adventuring though. 4 hours of work resulting in the equivalent of 2 hours, so it takes 4x as long to craft, but you can do it while you're out and about saving the world.
You missed something:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.
@Unruly
Please go and re-read the magic item crafting rules, the things you are saying on your last post includes things that aren't on the rules.
If being on a boat makes you unable to craft then it makes you unable to prepare spells as well since being able to prepare spells requires the same environment crafting does. Vigorous motion on a boat IMO would only be during a storm or during a boarding/combat.
As a DM I also keep a wary eye on crafting, ever since I had a character bless a tub of water, make some dust of dryness, and then go vampire hunting with little holy water grenades.
I usually dont give out a lot of magic items because characters as so optimized anymore. Back in 2E when characters were weaker as a whole (they had an 18 str d100 chat for pete sake. EVERYONE has an 18 anymore.) I gave out lots of magic. Now the characters tend to do well enough alone.
But even though I am restrictive on what is allowed, I compensate the players by not forcing lots of feats wasted.
I simply offer 1 "Magical Crafting Feat" that allows access to all types of crafting as soon as level appropriate.
It's also notable that higher level magic items take a lot of time to craft, 1 day per 1000gp in the base price (not the crafting price, as I almost erroneously noticed). You can also only craft for 4 hours while traveling instead of 8 while not traveling (effectively halving your yield to 500gp). So the best solution to curbing crafting abuse is time pressure. Your PCs sometimes simply can't afford to spend the amount of time needed to craft an object, especially since the most expensive ones can take the better part of a year.
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You see, this is the issue when the DM takes the round peg that is PF and tries to hammer it into the square hole that is "low magic". Pathfinder is very popular, it's very hard to get players for any other games. If he advertised Iron heroes (D20 balanced for low magic) he likely wouldn't get any players. So, he's gonna doe false advertising and push what he calls a Pathfinder game which is actually gonna be a bad kludge.
He likely want to do low magic as he is not imaginative enough to control PC's who can do magic stuff.
Vigorous Motion: If you are riding on a moving mount, taking a bouncy ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a storm-tossed ship, or simply being jostled in a similar fashion, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.It's very possible to rule that a boat is neither quiet nor comfortable. And considering that "vigorous motion while casting," such as riding a horse, is enough to require a concentration check, it's easy to say that being on a boat could prevent you from doing what you would normally be able to do on dry land. It would be well within the GM's ability to give you the compromise option of taking 10 and netting half the result or rolling and getting the full result. Or he could just prevent you from crafting altogether due to your concentration being interrupted by being in an inadequate work environment. And it really wouldn't be breaking RAW to do so. Is it taking a bit of leeway and maybe not the way it was intended? Sure, but the rules are there to back up that particular stance.
So please point out to me what I'm missing, other than not seeing the rushing rules, which I admit I missed.
If you live on a boat, you get your "sea legs". The normal day to day motion is not even noticed, let alone distracting. I can see a GM saying you don't have your sea legs yet, but you can certainly craft on a boat as long as you are not in an unusual situation like a storm or rapids. Consider a sea cruise. Yes, people get sea sick, but the crew never do because they are used to it.
What I see the OP saying is:
GM: I am running a low magic campaign, but with PC casters having normal casting abilities.
Player: I got this crafting feat and I want to use it.
GM: Oh wait. You cannot do this while on the road, even though the rules say so.
Player: OK. Now, I am in town and I Take 10.
GM: Oh wait. You cannot do this, even though the rules say so.
Sounds to me the GM does not want this, but is afraid to tell you ahead of time. I agree with others that you need to tell the GM he is house ruling the feat to uselessness and ask for either normal rules or a replacement feat of your choosing.
/cevah
@DrDeth
To be fair, from what the OP has told us, it looks like a low wealth instead of a low magic campaign.
@Question
Another house rule? (the nat 1 auto fail) Seriously take the hint and don't do magic item crafting, if he is prepared to spring up that many house rules, mid campaign, that all of them make your life difficult when crafting magic items then he REALLY doesn't want to craft magic items but for SOME REASON he doesn't tell you so on your face.
@DrDeth
To be fair, from what the OP has told us, it looks like a low wealth instead of a low magic campaign.
In PF, is there a significant difference, item-wise?
and "and we face very few spellcasters".
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You see, this is the issue when the DM takes the round peg that is PF and tries to hammer it into the square hole that is "low magic".
Yeah this GM is playing it wrong and should be ashamed of himself. Eveyone knows that there is only ONE right way to play the game, the way that DrDeth likes!
OK, lets get serious here. I play low magic Pathfinder games quite a bit, It's my preferred way to play the game. I also play a more standard game and I like it just fine. The games limitations are more bound by the creativity of the GM and players than anything else. Perhaps you can't imagine the game working well with low magic, but I assure you, it does.
Now these things work best if the players and the GM are both on board, and some discussion between them is required to ensure that everyone is having fun and no one feels cheated by the system, but that kinda goes for all Pathfinder games in my experience.
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I don't think he's saying the guy is playing it wrong,
When he calls playing low magic trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, I interperate that as saying that you are doing it wrong. I don't see how you can interperate it any other way.
Obviously when you play low magic some encounters aren't going to work properly. Certain things are going to be WAY more dangerous than the CR would imply, and the GM has to be aware of it, but the kinds of creatures that REQUIRE magic to defeat are generally either non-existant or exceedingly rare in low magic games. Part of the whole point of low magic games is that creatures that require magic to hurt are exceptionally dangerous.
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Oh certainly the GM and players in this case might have benefitted from a discussion about crafting before they started, hindsight is always 20/20. It's tough to be aware of every assumption that you make about your game as a GM and how your players might have a different view of things, so keeping an open dialogue is essential.
In this case it appears the the OP and the GM are finding that this is the case with crafting, and from the follow up posts they seem to be discussing and trying to find a way to deal with it that will work for both the player and the GM. Sometimes when you are trying something new adjustments need to be made mid game, and that's OK as long as they don't become adversarial (sometimes even that is OK, but once again different strokes for different folks)
If you re-read the inital post there is no indication that the GM is mucking things up with encounters that the party can't beat because of the wealth level or availability of magic items. The only issue right now seems to be that the GM and the players have different views on how many magic items the party should have and how easy it should be for the characters to get them. Either the Gm will continue to provide the tools the party needs to defeat it's challenges, or he will have to adjust things when it becomes apparent that a mistake has been made, but it doesn't really seem to have happened yet.
Now if there really was some indication that the GM had been pitting the party against enemies that they couldn't deal with given their equipment situation or that crafting really was going to be nessecarry for the party at some point, or even that he wouldn't allow the OP to swap out a crafting feat that he was not happy with because of differing assumption, then I could see DrDeths comments having some validity to them. Instead, we have
You see, this is the issue when the DM takes the round peg that is PF and tries to hammer it into the square hole that is "low magic".implying that it's wrong. (or possibly just inferior, if we go by your explanation) and then
If he advertised Iron heroes (D20 balanced for low magic) he likely wouldn't get any players. So, he's gonna doe false advertising and push what he calls a Pathfinder game which is actually gonna be a bad kludge.
He likely want to do low magic as he is not imaginative enough to control PC's who can do magic stuff.
Also very dismissive and a little judgy about a gamestyle that DrDeth doesn't seem to approve of.
My point has always been that there are innumerable ways to play the game, and none of them are wrong. Some aren't right for everyone, some aren't right for me, and obviously low magic isn't right for DrDeth. Can you really read that post and say that it isn't, at best, just thinly veiled derision for low magic games?
Like saying "Oh, this demon is CR6, my party is APL 6, so lets throw him out there!" But then the party has neither a cold iron nor a good weapon, because those things have been limited, and so the Demon has DR/10(5 Good, 5 Cold Iron) against all their attacks, and so they can't hurt it.
Nitpick:
If it sais "DR5/good and cold iron", that is still DR 5, not DR 10./cevah
I also have to nitpick. There is actually one wrong way to play the game. Playing in a manner which causes no fun to be had by anyone is always wrong. I have seen far too many unhappy people lash out at a gaming group over the years to ignore it as a possible playstyle.
You see, this is the issue when the DM takes the round peg that is PF and tries to hammer it into the square hole that is "low magic". Pathfinder is very popular, it's very hard to get players for any other games. If he advertised Iron heroes (D20 balanced for low magic) he likely wouldn't get any players. So, he's gonna doe false advertising and push what he calls a Pathfinder game which is actually gonna be a bad kludge.
He likely want to do low magic as he is not imaginative enough to control PC's who can do magic stuff.
Huh, guess it's my turn to agree with you. Since you pretty much nailed this, /thread.
@ dwayne germaine - Using Pathfinder as a low magic system *is* inferior to using another system that is actually designed for it. Pathfinder is skewed very heavily against low magic. That's a compatibility issue not a playstyle one.
To use a metaphor:
Person 1: I really want to use this baseball bat to play Cricket.
Person 2: Maybe you should use the appropriate equipment?
Person 1: No! Don't tell me my playstyle is inferior.
Because that's how your argument comes across dwayne germaine.
It's effectively DR/10 if they have no means of bypassing either the DR5/good or DR/5 cold iron. That's what I was getting at. Different types of DR stack with each other if it says "and" as opposed to "or." It's just less text to put "DR/5 Good and Cold Iron" in the place of "DR/5 Good and DR/5 Cold Iron." Also, if you only bypass one and not the other when "and" is used, they're still going to take 5 less damage from your attacks.Like saying "Oh, this demon is CR6, my party is APL 6, so lets throw him out there!" But then the party has neither a cold iron nor a good weapon, because those things have been limited, and so the Demon has DR/10(5 Good, 5 Cold Iron) against all their attacks, and so they can't hurt it.Nitpick:
If it sais "DR5/good and cold iron", that is still DR 5, not DR 10./cevah
Re-read the rules on DR.
The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature’s tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won’t work.
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
DR Type .. Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
cold iron/silver .. +3
adamantine* .. +4
alignment-based .. +5
* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does
"DR/5 Good and Cold Iron" reduces damage by 5 unless the weapon used is both good aligned and cold iron, or it is a +5 weapon.
/cevah