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To the OP:
Personally I was ecstatic when my kids got into RPG's and Magic the Gathering. The primary reason is that to play the game the a fairly significant amount of material! It wasn't homework or practice. I didn't have to push them to do it. It wasn't boring. They wanted to do it.
Him, "What else can I do with my ranger?"
Me, "You might want to check out the section on wands and look up a few spells like Gravity Bow."
He would literally rush off with the book to look it up. Even though my middle child has dyslexia and reading was real chore, he would immediately rush off with the book to work through it. Because he wanted to know what was in it!
Their teachers actually called to find out what we were doing with the kids because they noticed such an improvement in their reading skill in less than a semester. When we told them we just found a game they like with hundreds of pages of written rules and guides, they were astonished we got them to read even a small portion of the books. They were truly amazed when I told them the boys had gotten through and reasonably understood most of 3 large books.
One of the teachers even asked to borrow the books for a couple of weeks (I don't know if he ever did anything with it after that).
Less critical (to my family), it also works on many different concepts and skills.
- Working as a team for the benefit of the team, without losing the self.
- List of pros and cons for long term benefits and consequences to make choices in the build of character.
Basic addition, subtraction, and multiplication skills (though the PF rules for 'doubling' might actually be a deterrent with respect to this).
- Can at least get a bit of an intro into the concept of statistics, probability, weighted averages, normalized distributions, etc... None of it is talked about like that in the game itself, but it is a topic that can be brought up when they start talking about whether to use a great axe or falchion.
- Actions and consequences in virtual social settings, lets kids and young adults work through a lot of issues from multiple points of view if you can get them involved in any significant role playing. Think of all the counselors who try to get people involved in 'role playing' as a method of therapy. But any counselor will tell you it is really difficult to get people (especially young adults) to really get involved. Well with this they want to get involved.
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@beej67: Okay, THAT is different.
Ever heard of anyone beating the Axis by buying battleships as UK? :) I have.
Not specifically, no, but I should HOPE SO - what the hell good is a world history simulator where Britain can't dominate the world with its navy?!?
True optimization is situational.
THANK YOU. The word "optimization" has never been part of my personal vocabulary (at least now I understand it doesn't have to be a red flag), but otherwise, that's been my line all along; it was once rebuffed by, "but some situations are more likely than others." My attitude is, if you feel safe settling into a groove to that degree, then the DM isn't doing their job (and this is going to be more and more important to tabletop RPGs going forward, as they're going to need to rely on their ability to do things and go places electronic games can't in order to justify their continued relevance, as the 3.5 Player's Handbook so shrewdly acknowledged in its introduction) - and in any real-world endeavor that's both worth doing if you're personally involved with it and worthy of respect if you're not, so much the worse ("Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't." - Mark Twain).
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I am a teacher at a small rural high school and for the last week of the academic year, I am allowed to teach any topic of my choice. I would like to teach my students how to play Pathfinder. I was thinking that I could teach them the rules, make characters, run them through some PFS scenarios, and even perhaps take them on a field trip to play some Pathfinder Society with other players. However, I need to justify this subject is some academic way. I am looking for some help in being able to articulate to my administration why Pathfinder would be so beneficial to my students. What are some of those life long skills that I am trying to teach that can be taught through role playing games? What are the 21st century skills that this game fosters? If any of you have some thoughts on the matter, or can refer me to some articles, I would be most appreciative.
If you want some good examples of success, I recently read Peter V. Brett's "The Warded Man" and noticed that he mentions D&D...
From an excerpt where he talks about learning to write, "I then went to the university at Buffalo and majored in English, taking writing classes, but in truth I learned more about storytelling in my weekly games of Dungeons and Dragons, where i served as Dungeon Master and wrote original adventures for the players."
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Working as a team for the benefit of the team, without losing the self.
The fact that this even comes up as an issue (I'm not picking on you, Kydeem de'Morcaine, I've seen it come up often enough before) bothers me.
My experience, based among other things on online gaming, tabletop gaming, and my life as an actor (something I've been doing since kindergarten, and while I've just barely started doing it professionally, I have managed to secure SAG-AFTRA eligibility, which is no small potatoes), makes it pretty clear that "teamwork" works best in the absence of "teamthink" - you don't look at yourselves from a third-person perspective, you just do what makes sense, and thinking in terms of "the team" accomplishes nothing good that couldn't be accomplished in its absence, and even leads to the problems its existence is supposed to avert when they wouldn't have come up otherwise. It's almost exactly like the "optimization sycophants" I was railing against earlier - people are convinced that a certain ultra-restrictive mentality is necessary, yet those of us who never got the memo keep managing to prove otherwise through action.
I'm pretty sure the fallacy has deep cultural roots, FAR older than the well-within-living-memory phenomenon of gaming and much too complex to address properly here, but, while I wouldn't say it tackles the subject on a direct 1-to-1 level, this article at least gets very close to the foundation of the issue, and is worth reading on general principles.
Let's see, you've got literacy, numeracy, problem solving, team work, social interraction, "creative writing", imagination......
That's a good list. IME the main clear benefits are in literacy & numeracy. It also helps with social skills, and with goal oriented cooperation - like team sports, but with more talking and no exercise. :)
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"optimization sycophants"
I'm gonna go ahead and ask you to quit this. Hi. I optimize. I've taught others to optimize. I generally play with optimizers. We have never encountered the problems you claim are 'ruining' RPGs.
Contrary to popular belief (especially here), optimization does not always or even often indicate a drive towards maximum power, especially in games lik 3.5 or PF that are, essentially, solved puzzles. Optimizers bring their concepts to life in efficient, potent fashions - whether those concepts are 'greatsword fighter' or 'Miri o' the Runes, a magical con artist trying to write the world's most perfect illusion'. Yeah, we've got outliers & jerks - but what social group doesn't?
As for addressing the thread's topic - definitely emphasize the social aspects. One thing that roleplaying taught me, and taught me a lot, was how to keep a small group of disparate people together. Conflict resolution is an essential duty to an RPG group and it's one they can carry into the rest of their lives.
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"optimization sycophants"I'm gonna go ahead and ask you to quit this. Hi. I optimize. I've taught others to optimize. I generally play with optimizers. We have never encountered the problems you claim are 'ruining' RPGs.
1. Note that "optimization sychophants" was originally beej67's term.
2. We'd just resolved this whole thing wonderfully before you posted.
3. A fish, as they say, is the last to know it's swimming in water. You may not have observed what I've observed, and there are many possible reasons for that, but it should be enough for you to know that there are others who are aware of things you're not (which should never be news), and while your second paragraph was okay, opening up with a wordier version of "I don't understand what you're saying, so SHUT UP!" does you no favors.
Picard out - We Now Return You To Our Regularly Scheduled Thread.
Gnome magus with a riding dog and a wyroot club sidearm. He uses the gnome alternate racial spells to get chill touch, uses the gnome alternate magus blade buffs to get Merciful and Vicious on his scimitar, and rolls five (or more) dice on swings, taking one die of subdual himself. After...
Does the wyroot coup de grace work? i always consedered the confirmation rool to be the important part of tthe text so no point back on coup de grace in my game.
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Apparently, the wyroot rules say "when a weapon constructed of wyroot confirms a critical hit..." and in the case of a coup-de-grace, you automatically score a critical hit, which would imply an automatic confirmation buried in there, so I'd actually be willing to flat-out say, "yes, it works."
HOWEVER, if you're the DM, you can (in addition to the obvious choice of "ban wyroot") easily adjust or add to the wyroot rules in a manner that makes it not work or, maybe, makes it harder/unreliable (and looking at that build and reflecting on its implications, I might be inclined to do something like that myself in such a position).
I know many of you are suggesting that I try simpler rpg systems than Pathfinder, but I actually like the complexity of the game. I agree with Kydeem de'Morcaine that this will draw many students into reading and trying to understand the rules. Pathfinder has such extensive resources for those who are interested. I remember bringing my AD&D Player's Handbook into middle school and reading it every free moment I could. I imagine many of my students would take to the Pathfinder books the same way. I would have simply loved having the time in school to actually let me delve into such a subject with intensity.
Most of the students that this will draw from are some of the brightest, motivated students in my school. In fact many of the students that are in my AP Calculus class are the ones asking me to offer Pathfinder as a course. If it does run, it will be every day from 8:30 am to 3 pm for five days. With such an amount of time to teach this course, I think the complexity of the subject will actually be an asset.
The other reason I like the idea of teaching pathfinder is that it is a subject that I know very well. I also know that I could differentiate the course easily by having the most motivated, enthusiastic students be game masters and let the others be players. If a student was inclined to learn a great deal more, I have nearly all the books that I could lend out as resources.
One thing I find is that so many of my students are video gamers. I really want to show them a social game that is a lot a fun, exciting, interesting, complex and does not require spending hours in front of a computer screen. I just think that spending hours tabletop gaming would be far better for them than spending hours with their xbox. Interacting with real people across the table would be far more beneficial than being home alone with a video game. My hope is that this might actually stir an interest in a life long endeavor that they could enjoy for years to come.
I am a teacher at a small rural high school and for the last week of the academic year, I am allowed to teach any topic of my choice. I would like to teach my students how to play Pathfinder. I was thinking that I could teach them the rules, make characters, run them through some PFS scenarios, and even perhaps take them on a field trip to play some Pathfinder Society with other players. However, I need to justify this subject is some academic way. I am looking for some help in being able to articulate to my administration why Pathfinder would be so beneficial to my students. What are some of those life long skills that I am trying to teach that can be taught through role playing games? What are the 21st century skills that this game fosters? If any of you have some thoughts on the matter, or can refer me to some articles, I would be most appreciative.
Haven't read the whole thread but if u get the okay to do so i would recommend the starters kit that paizo sells. It has the basic rules down and even has a scenario u can run quickly to get players to have a feel for the game.
Haven't read the whole thread but if u get the okay to do so i would recommend the starters kit that paizo sells. It has the basic rules down and even has a scenario u can run quickly to get players to have a feel for the game.
My son has the beginner box set. I think you're right. That would be useful to get things started quickly.
Tell me folks, what PFS scenarios or modules do you think would be the best to run? Which ones do you think would be the best for problem solving and interesting encounters that require something other than just hack and slash? It would be best to have scenarios that avoid controversial topics.
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Silent Tide, the ur-Scenario of Organized Play, has players hit the ground running with a fight that, while easy, does come with a bit of a catch, and after that it has a cool puzzle (or even 2 - it was my first Scenario as a player, and I've recently run it as a DM, but neither time did we have enough time to engage in the "optional if time permits" encounter), a final battle that can provide a kind of interesting tactical challenge, AND a unique minor treasure on the Chronicle sheet.
For beginning players, you can't go wrong with the First Steps trilogy, which offers a broad introduction to the world of Pathfinder Society, including most of the big names within the Society, and offers a WIDE array of challenges to players.
There's also the The Quest for Perfection trilogy, which likewise provides a diverse array of challenges, at least one fairly goofy (but still not to be taken lightly) combat near the beginning, and an unusual climax with its own special rules - AND the whole thing offers worthwhile unique boons/loot on the final Chronicle sheet (Cavaliers, Samurai, Monks, and possibly the upcoming Brawler and Hunter classes, take special note).
The Blackros Matrimony is kind of notorious; it's certainly not your typical dungeon-crawl. You should certainly check it out.
From Shore to Sea is a higher-level Module that is not for the faint of heart, but it's worth playing, is definitely more than hack and slash, and the Chronicle sheet is worth it! All the same goes for Day of the Demon, a Scenario just recently made available outside of conventions.
Haven't read the whole thread but if u get the okay to do so i would recommend the starters kit that paizo sells. It has the basic rules down and even has a scenario u can run quickly to get players to have a feel for the game.My son has the beginner box set. I think you're right. That would be useful to get things started quickly.
Tell me folks, what PFS scenarios or modules do you think would be the best to run? Which ones do you think would be the best for problem solving and interesting encounters that require something other than just hack and slash? It would be best to have scenarios that avoid controversial topics.
IMO if you want to run a quick scenario that's fun, challenging and is ideally geared to a one-shot game, picking the old PFS First Steps: To Delve Dungeons Deep module is a good one.
There's also a couple non-PFS mods that I've used for my girls. Master of the Fallen Fortress and Hollow's Last Hope. The first one is a straight-up dungeon hack with almost no story, meaning then you could provide any kind of story you wanted. The second is a "save the town" game and really paints the players as heroes.
I've never been a teacher but I always wanted to. You have my thanks for your job and for doing this. I have however taught a few kids and adults to play this game. What I've noticed that really sticks with folks who learn it and enjoy it is a more social effect. The simulated near-death experience and the success of beating tough challenges together helps solidify social bonds. I've seen this game, or previous versions, bring kids together and keep them together for decades.
Somewhere on these boards is a thread from another teacher who got approval to run PF as a before/after school program. I don't remember the specifics and I stink at finding anything on these boards but maybe if you can find the thread it might be helpful to you as well.
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A teacher I mentioned this to pointed out that RPGs go all the way through bloom's taxonomy, from simply remembering the rules to applying them in the game to evaluating and synthesizing during character creation and development of tactics.
dungeon world may be a better gateway game for your students..its very easy, emphasizes imagination and has the basics of RPG intact.
then transfer the hardcore players to pathfinder, and start a new generation of RPers. :)
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http://youtu.be/VFtlDhksGHA
I watch the PBS Idea Channel show and they had an episode on how D&D can you a confident and successful person. Insert Pathfinder wherever he says D & D and you have your argument.
Offhand, I think this a great idea and Pathfinder with its focus on diversity and appreciation of other cultures is a much better teaching tool than D & D.
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I'm currently teaching a year-long middle-school class called "Adventure Gaming." It's Pathfinder.
My school was short on electives and the principal was pretty open to new ideas. Here's what I pitched her:
"Students will participate in cooperative story telling and will explore academic themes such as character development, the narrative story arc, ensemble casts is film and literature, and the classic hero archetypes. Students will engage in both reading for pleasure (mostly fiction) and reading with a purpose (mostly information texts), vocabulary development, and both fiction and technical writing, and develop a working understanding of simple statistics and probability, as well as practice applying abstract formula and rule systems. And they’ll have fun doing it!"
Here's how I advertised it to students once it was approved"
"Do you crave adventure? Have you ever wanted to be the hero in your own exciting story? Well, now’s your chance. Sign up for “Adventure Gaming” today. This class will teach you to think critically and solve problems while playing pen-and-paper adventure games. Specifically, you will learn to play a fantasy role-playing game called Pathfinder (similar to Dungeons & Dragons) set in a make-believe world of magic and adventure in the spirit of stories like “The Hobbit,” “The Lord of the Rings,” “Percy Jackson,” and “Harry Potter.” You will learn the rules of the game and have plenty of time to actually play in class, but you will also learn how to write about interesting and complex characters and how to structure adventures stories that you write. Warning: You will read in this class; you don’t have to the best reader in the world to enjoy adventure gaming, but you do have to have an open mind and I don’t want to hear anybody complaining about having to read. Same thing with math – role-playing games involve math, but playing Pathfinder will help you feel more comfortable using math in situations outside of math class and will help you to better understand things like formulas, measurements and probability. So take a chance, try something new, and sign-up to be a hero today."
And here is the note I sent home to get signed by parents just to cover my butt:
"Dear Parents,
Greetings! My name is Mr. XYZ. This year I will be teaching your son or daughter an exploratory class called “Adventure Gaming.” In this class, students will learn to think critically and solve problems while playing a fantasy role-playing game called Pathfinder (similar to Dungeons & Dragons) set in a make-believe world of magic and adventure in the spirit of stories like “The Hobbit,” “The Lord of the Rings,” “Percy Jackson,” and “Harry Potter.” They will learn the rules of the game and have time to actually play in class, but will also learn to be better readers and better writers, and will feel more comfortable with math skills like solving formulas and working with measurements and probability. It won’t be all fun and games – students will do plenty of work – but it should be enjoyable and your child will learn new skills, and, hopefully, grow as a person too.
Warning: “Adventure Gaming” is a class about… well… adventure. The students will create and play with stories that involve about the same level of imaginary action, danger and violence as a PG or maybe PG13 movie or video game, much like the in stories listed above. If that is okay with you – game on! And if it’s not, our school offers a wide variety of fantastic exploratory opportunities and a different class might be more suitable for your son or daughter.
Thank you in advance for your involvement and support this year. I look forward to meeting you at Back-to-School Night or sooner. If you have any questions, ideas or issues you would like to discuss, feel free to drop by after school, email me at XYZ@schoolemail, or leave me a message at (123)456-7890.
Sincerely,
Mr. XYZ"
A year is obviously more than a week, but I would highly recommend using the Basic Box as your starting point - there are lots of free downloads to support it that you can use with the kids. With 24 students, to start with, I put them into 6 groups of 4, gave each group an iconic, and ran the whole class through the intro dungeon. Each day the groups switched iconics, so after 4 days, each group had experienced each basic class. Then we spent a day playing with dice, checking out d4s, d6s, d8s, d10s, d12s, and d20s. I had them roll each die 10x and figure out the average. Then we fiddled with different combos - 2d6, 3d6, 3d6+2 - to get the gist of the basic math formulas. Second week we created one character of each basic class together as a whole class on the overhead. We carefully read over the steps and rules for each class and made one together. By the 10th day, they'd played each class and created a character of each class, so they were ready to create their own. They had the whole period, I took them home over the weekend and "audited" them.
10 days to create a character may seem like forever, but dealing with the nuts-and-bolts of an RPG is something totally outside the experience of my students. Frankly, so is carefully reading a set of rules and following directions carefully... which is why this is such an important experience for them.
As the year has progressed I also taught them how to create encounters and how to group 3-4 encounters with an over-arching plot into an adventure. Trimester 1 we wrote a dungeoncrawl together, then they wrote one independently. They took turns GMing the other kids through their dungeons. Tri 2 we wrote a sandbox wilderness adventure together and then they wrote their own and again GMed each other. This Tri 3 we're writing an event-based urban adventure together and then they'll create and GM their own (we've also been following RPG Superstar because it's a perfect fit).
The GMing is a big thing. They're not particularly good at it. It takes hours and hours of playing before one can be a good GM. Anf with 24 kids, there's no way I can GM them all. One thing I've tried is a PFS-style system where I get a handful of kids to stay after school and I'll run them through a short PFS module. After the mod, we'll debrief, and then they'll turn around an run it in class. Works okay. I've had the best luck with having 2 kids co-GM so they can lean on each other for support. The nice thing is there are only a few rules lawyers, so as long as the pace is fast and there's plenty of combat, nobody really cares if they're following the RAW.
That would be my last suggestion. Teach the rules, but don't stress if if you have to cut corners. We crit on a 20 w/o confirmation, there are no AoOs, you can make all skill checks untrained... some of this stuff just doesn't matter to a 12-year-old, and it doesn't have to. Monty Haul! Be generous with treasure and XP (I give 1 XP every day for good game playing and another XP for turning in their HW; takes 10 to level up). Ultimately it's about grabbing some dice, being creative, and having fun.
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Working as a team for the benefit of the team, without losing the self.
The fact that this even comes up as an issue (I'm not picking on you, Kydeem de'Morcaine, I've seen it come up often enough before) bothers me.
My experience, based among other things on online gaming, tabletop gaming, and my life as an actor (something I've been doing since kindergarten, and while I've just barely started doing it professionally, I have managed to secure SAG-AFTRA eligibility, which is no small potatoes), makes it pretty clear that "teamwork" works best in the absence of "teamthink" - you don't look at yourselves from a third-person perspective, you just do what makes sense, and thinking in terms of "the team" accomplishes nothing good that couldn't be accomplished in its absence, and even leads to the problems its existence is supposed to avert when they wouldn't have come up otherwise...
I am not entirely sure what exactly you are disagreeing with in this section and the article did not make it much clearer. If you are talking about the fad of mangement "team building" seminars. Then yes, I agree that for most people those are a waste of time.
There are people that really did not understand the concept in any real meaningful fashion until after they went to a course like that. I have no studies to back me up but just from personal observation, I would say that a significant percentage of the people that manage to claw their way to the top in some of the high pressure professions are fairly socipathic personalities that really just didn't understand the concept. I have observed at least 2 individuals go to those seminars and it really was like a lightbulb had been turned on. They were charged up and wanted everyone to go to the seminars, because it never occured to them that the rest of us already understood the concept and were already working as a team.
However there are people who have the basic concept of teamwork, understand that it is a good thing, but simply have no real idea how to apply it. You stated, "... you just do what makes sense ..." unfortunately that doesn't connect for all people. Even if trying to be a team the only thing that comes to the forefront of their brain is do the best I can. To be perfectly honest, I see that the most often with kids who were never in team sports or were in team sports but were such natural atheletes (or at least thought they were) that working as a team brought poorer results.
Think about the players that always have the barbarian that charges in chin first before the cleric can buff, before the fighter sets the choke point, before the wizard lands the area affect spell, etc... then moans and complains about how no one else would support him and he had to do it all himself. It would not be surprising to me if you found that it was someone who had never played on a team sport or it was the 'ball hog' that was always trying to win the game all by themselves.
However, this RPG has a tremendous advantage over real life that is very similar to sports practice. I can have a 'do over' where since I control the opposition I can set them back to initial conditions and try it again with each person following some suggested tactics to see what happens. I have seen several times where the players was literally (yes, I am using the word correctly) amazed by the outcome. Not only did the team do better, but the 'ball hog' PC also did better as an individual. He got more kills, did more damage, and took less damage. Everyone was happy. This has grown into several groups starting to use standard tactical plays (very similar to football plays).
Doing what made sense was charging in first since that's what barbarians are made for. But it was not necessarily good for the team.
Does it work for everyone? No. Some people are 'ball hogs' because that truly is their personality and doing better at the expense of the team really is what they enjoy.
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Regarding actual PFS for the kids, I'm lucky enough to have a 3-times-a-year Con about half mile from where I teach. My school is very inner-city with all the diversity and challenges that that implies. It's also right next to an airport and the Con takes place in one of the myriad of airport hotels. By about 6 months into the class, I had a group of students who were comfortable enough with the rules to go to the Con and play a few games of real PFS Pathfinder.
Benefits:
1) They got to test their rules knowledge and, even more importantly, their problem-solving skills against GMs other than me. My Venture Captain is awesome and set them all up at a table with a GM who also happens to be a middle-school teacher. But by the third game, they had to split up and play at a couple of different tables with mixed groups... and they did fine. It was cute; they all came back with stories of playing with "strangers" and being able to keep up. Serious boost to their confidence.
2) They had to think about their actions and the repercussions of their actions more carefully when they were playing with strangers who'd get mad if they goofed around or made really dumb/thoughtless decisions. They also had to work as a team and coordinate their actions. They got stuck at one point in a narrow corridor and couldn't attack the baddie because the guy with the lowest initiative won surprise and stepped in front of everybody. By the end, they'd started coordinating stepping into melee and out so as to not screw the archer and even delaying to let people get off their actions in the optimal order.
3) It took they're level of play up a notch from our simplified Basic Box to the full CRB. (One of them actually even won a CRB in a raffle! He brings that thing to class every day like a Bible.) Now they ask me questions about whether or not certain bonuses stack or if things provoke AoOs.
4) They saw diverse and well-adjusted adult men and women playing RPGs. They interacted with those adults like civilized human beings (not always the norm for 12-year-olds). Socialization!
5) For my students, seeing that there is something cool outside of their neighborhood, and that it's not really that hard for them to access it, is a world-opening revelation for some of them. I attended a total of 3 games over 2 days with them, but one student came back on his own for 2 more games on the 3rd day of the Con!
[Caveat: Again, when dealing with students and minors, I made it very clear to parents that this was a public event, that their children were welcome to attend, that I would keep an eye on them and let them use my phone if they needed to call home, but that this was not a school event and that I was not "supervising" them... and then I had the parents sign a permission slip anyway. Most were fine with that, though one mom actually came in to the Con to check it out before agree to leave her son - and I totally respect that, too. This age-group is all about balancing trust, responsibility and independence.]
For the last trimester, students in the class are going to get PSF numbers and create new characters according to the more stringent PFS guidelines, and I'm going to have my Con-goers GM them through sanctioned PFS mods. The majority of the kids will get a more advanced experience and characters that they could maybe use at a future Con, and my core group will get even deeper experience and PFS XP for GMing that they can apply the characters they've already played at a Con. And unlike me farming my students for PFS XP for my own characters, I think them getting PFS XP is totally legitimate. (Maybe I can get organizer credit...)
Overall, PFS has served me as a template for a lot of things (good, short mods, an XP model, a way to track their loot), and now that the time is right, it's an appropriate step for some of them to jump into (or all of them in a very sheltered way). But full PFS from the beginning would have been too much.
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As a Dutch kid I learned a great deal of English by reading the 2.5 D&D books. Wanting to actually read cool stuff like the Bestiary can be a powerful motivation to learn a language. (Not so useful if you're a native English speaker though.)
Although, even for a native speaker of English, the early books fostered a love of mythology and interest in history that has lasted my whole life.
Every time we came upon a creature we had never heard-of, we went about researching it to see if it was made up for the game, or came from a historical, anthropological source. Surprising how many creatures in all iterations of the game actually have a source in the real world, even some of the weirdest ones.
Comparing how the various rulebooks interpreted a god, or creature, or item of legend, to how those things were recorded in real world history, could practically fuel a career.
Thought of one more thing. Not sure if anybody mentioned this. I see mentions of statistics and math, which is expected.
But, specifically, remember that game design has become very big business in this modern world. I am speaking of video games now. There are courses at reputable universities in game design now, as well as a host of smaller colleges dedicated to same.
The rudiments of most of the games out there, in terms of the basic algorithms and building blocks used to manage characters within the games, come from roleplaying games, ultimately tracing their lineage to D&D and then to the wargames that inspired it.
A course in how to design and manage the resources of a Pathfinder character, easily serves as a sort of grammar lesson in the origin of video game characters and the resource and skill management that comes with them. Thus, it's an introductory course for future video game designers.
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I am not entirely sure what exactly you are disagreeing with in this section and the article did not make it much clearer. If you are talking about the fad of mangement "team building" seminars. Then yes, I agree that for most people those are a waste of time....
I wasn't so much "disagreeing" as, like I said, simply "expressing concern for why this should be an issue noteworthy enough to come up as frequently as I've seen it" (which, thankfully, is not all THAT frequently, but still frequent enough to make me uncomfortable).
First of all, your view that "a significant percentage of the people that manage to claw their way to the top in some of the high pressure professions are fairly socipathic [sic] personalities" is no accident - it's old news. Try reading Snakes In Suits by Paul Babiak and Robert D. Hare.
I've never had any interest in sports (but I never bore it any animosity - at least not until I read an article similar to this one), and the more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of that mentality being transferred over to gaming. The "jocks VS nerds" thing, I've slowly learned, is more than a stereotype - although there can certainly be leak-over, it is to a very large extent a different class of person. It's no accident that the first RPG players were weirdos, outcasts, and precisely the kind of people who would have been the last ones picked for sports teams and first to be accused of witchcraft. My observation is that if anyone's most likely to behave stupidly, it's the people who have been indoctrinated into the "sports" mindset (or doubtless even worse, the "military" mindset - my local Pathfinder Society group has or has had a lot of military or former military people, and of those, it's those who have most internalized the military mindset who are the most prone to problems, even when they're earnestly trying not to), as well as certain cultural paraphernalia that go with it. Also telling is that, even among those of this set who don't behave stupidly, I've seen them more likely to joke about such behavior, or try to take preemptive measures against it even when there's no clear and present cause for concern - meaning the thought occurs to them, even when it doesn't to others.
This might be a good point at which to bring up that "altruism" article you said you didn't understand the relevance of: Part of the point was that "good behavior" (and that includes "intelligent/rational behavior") is something inborn for most people, but up until very recently (meaning most people today, even those still in high school, have been harmed by it), the prevailing mentality (especially in the US, with its still-strong Puritan cultural influence) has been something to the tune of "people are born bad, and society must make them good by breaking their will" when in fact the combined results of the last 60-and-change years of psychology, anthropology, increasing cultural pluralism, and practical changes in parenting styles have all pointed to the direct opposite conclusion being the case - the vindication of a Rousseauian "people are inherently good and rational, but made bad and stupid by a sick society they've inherited, and if you would keep them good and rational, nurture what's already there", or even of a Crowleyan "individual Will is what MAKES people good, so there's no greater sin than breaking it" model. I realize this all points more toward parenting issues, and there's only so much a high school teacher can do by the time kids get there, but this is an unavoidable foundation of the topic.
Regarding your "Barbarian who always charges in first:" Sometimes that totally works; sometimes it doesn't; oftentimes it can be made to work by subsequent players being clever (and you can't expect the stereotypical Barbarian to be clever anyways). Tactics must be situational, and while plans and fancy dance numbers can be splendid under the right circumstances, depending on them by default will result in something like a group of drunks dependent on each other to stay upright as they stagger down the street, and if they run into something none of them expected, as happens often as not, they all wind up powerless to adapt as they drag each other down. You have to be able to look around you, improvise and adapt in real-time (as I previously mentioned, one of my proudest moments from my time playing World of Warcraft was when I singlehandedly reversed the tide of a TPK in a high-level dungeon). My experience with online gaming has corroborated this: Some people there were insistent on a planned, structured approach to battle (especially in World of Warcraft - City of Heroes/Villains, not so much), but my best play experiences were always with parties who didn't think that way; "trust everyone to know what they're doing" was my motto, and it worked at least as well as the former mentality (oh, and ALL my groups were "PUGs," which I understand some people considered anathema).
Let me tell you a detail about my own background, see if you think it holds any additional meaning: I haven't been playing tabletop RPGs or online games anywhere near as long as some people (regarding online games, I held off a long time because I didn't understand how they could possibly work, and regarding tabletop games, I had years of bad luck finding a group, but I'm now the single oldest still-standing obelisk at my local Pathfinder Society group), but I grew up playing computer RPGs, where YOU are the ENTIRE PARTY. The Barbarian, the Druid, the Paladin, the Robber, the Sorcerer - YOU play them ALL.
In conclusion, the whole of my education both formal and otherwise, personal experience and observation, and introspection have left me with every reason to believe that it is the very concept of "The Team/The Group/The Country/The Collective" that actually stands in the way of accomplishing what those concepts supposedly exist to accomplish, perhaps because it frightens and confuses people by threatening to take away what is rightfully and necessarily theirs, and in the real world, it's by far most useful for group activities (wars, immoral business practices, etc.) that most people would choose not to participate in, or even actively stand against, if they didn't feel making their own decisions would put them in jeopardy - this is all stuff that is CRITICAL to instill in people today; if Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden had continued to put loyalty to "The Team" ahead of their own judgement, they would not be heroes. I understand that some may consider this issue different or off-the-mark, but I think it CAN help explain at least some of the "sociopathic personalities" and "ball hogs" you mentioned: A lot like, to paraphrase a friend of mine (when we were speaking in the context of a somewhat, but far from wholly, different topic), "angry Catholic kids who declare themselves Satanists and kill their neighbor's dogs because they can't escape the fact that they're gay," some people who otherwise may have turned out alright may find themselves caught between two moral imperatives that they're being incorrectly told are contradictory, so their morals and judgement wind up "pickled" beyond even their own recognition. Is there help for such people? For some, yes, for others, maybe not - but reinforcing the ideologies that drove them there certainly won't help.
"We walk faster when we walk alone." - Napoleon "I Know How Groups Work" Bonaparte
"A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle." - Mohammed "Hi, I'm Not As Famous As Napoleon, But Notice How This Is Right Next To His Quote As Though To Suggest The Two Are Consistent With Each Other" Nabbous
"Life has taught us that love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." - Antoine "My Quote Comes Last Because It's The Most Important One" de Saint-Exupery
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It's arguable that they are heroes... I'd stick with people history has confirmed as such...
It already has. If Deep Throat, Daniel Ellsberg, and Smedley Butler were heroes, then those two are, if anything, SUPERHEROES. History isn't just repeating itself, it's been purposefully erased.
an a bunch of other run on sentences in a blinding wall of text.Dude, seriously learn to use paragraph breaks, and cut down on the sentence length.
I also recommend a limit to one polemic rant per post.
1. If you'll look, you'll see I use paragraph breaks just fine - I count 5 large paragraphs in my last post, all of which are within the range of normal paragraph size. It's possible you could find one that got away in there if you cared to pick through it, but as far as I can see, there are no run-on sentences.
2. Define "polemic rant" - also, everything I said was directed at making a single point. Communicating important concepts when they're new or not common knowledge is hard, and take much more effort both for the writer to explain and the reader to understand.
3. I assume you give writing pointers as a public service to all who need it, right - as opposed to just as a disguised method of saying "SHUT UP!"?
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It already has. If Deep Throat, Daniel Ellsberg, and Smedley Butler were heroes, then those two are, if anything, SUPERHEROES. History isn't just repeating itself, it's been purposefully erased.
Bradly/chelsea manning I don't really feel deserves that honorific. The first thing it did was good, everything after that was attention seeking and irresponsible.
Likewise Snowden doesn't deserve hero status because he didn't discover something in the course of his job that didn't jive (the first thing chelsea did... everything after that was sought after so isn't "heroic") but instead he rampantly abused responsibility given to him to prove a theory he had.
A hero would of seen this in the course of his job and brought it all about in a better manner.
The difference between chelsea and the people you mentioned (although the last I hadn't heard of so can't comment on smedley butler) all discovered something questionable in their line of duty and acted on it/disclosed it. Chelsea is the only one that can claim that with the helicopter footage he released, but after that he went on a fishing expedition so he could "be the hero" again. The only thing he did close to "heroic" is the thing few even know it for.
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It already has. If Deep Throat, Daniel Ellsberg, and Smedley Butler were heroes, then those two are, if anything, SUPERHEROES. History isn't just repeating itself, it's been purposefully erased.
Bradly/chelsea manning I don't really feel deserves that honorific. The first thing it did was good, everything after that was attention seeking and irresponsible.
Likewise Snowden doesn't deserve hero status because he didn't discover something in the course of his job that didn't jive (the first thing chelsea did... everything after that was sought after so isn't "heroic") but instead he rampantly abused responsibility given to him to prove a theory he had.
A hero would of seen this in the course of his job and brought it all about in a better manner.
The difference between chelsea and the people you mentioned (although the last I hadn't heard of so can't comment on smedley butler) all discovered something questionable in their line of duty and acted on it/disclosed it. Chelsea is the only one that can claim that with the helicopter footage he released, but after that he went on a fishing expedition so he could "be the hero" again. The only thing he did close to "heroic" is the thing few even know her for.
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I will make do with saying only this:
Are you aware Daniel Ellsberg's still alive (Butler is unfortunately long-dead, and Deep Throat died in 2008)? You REALLY need to look up HIS comments on Manning and Snowden. I'm not going to bother linking you anything, just Google "Daniel Ellsberg Snowden" and "Daniel Ellsberg Manning" and read the wall of results.
/digression
I call "Appeal to Authority!"
Not a valid argument.
Anyone care to stop the hijacking of the thread so the OP doesn't get so bored that none of our advice matters?
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Double-check what that means. Not a valid counter-argument in this case.
I did just say:
/digression
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saying "this hero has declared this person a hero" is not a valid appeal to authority. As there's no person in your argument that is able to declare them a hero... unlike say if president Barack Obama declared him a hero...
Having to get the last word in on your point is very silly...
/digression.
"Not saying anything...."
"Not saying anything...."
"res ipsa loquitur and all that...."
"...Aww, who are we kidding?"
"D'OH-HOHOHOHOHOHOOOOOOO!!!!!"
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obvious troll is obvious.
Never has any troll been MORE obvious than those two. :)
@GM Harpwizard: You may recall my 2nd post on here included a laundry list of other game systems that you could introduce students to in addition to Pathfinder. I would like to reiterate my recommendation of TORG - I'm relatively new to it myself, but it's pretty cool. Due to its unique premise ("A parallel 1990 Earth is beset by cosmic skin grafts"), there are all kinds of things you could use it to teach, but in particular, a unique take on history and social studies, as well as comparative literature and (possibly) religion, and maybe even out-there concepts like ontology. There are elements to take with a grain of salt, though (I'm thinking mainly of its concept of the "Social Axiom," a core game mechanic which at least implies a far too linear and antiquated concept of "social betterment"), and the hardest part, of course, would be dealing with the fact that none of it is in print any longer (although fans and even the original designers seem to have managed to keep the flame alive in spite of that). Still, I find myself quite enthused by the way it reflects on larger themes that are so relevant to the right-here and right-now, like the transition from cultural isolation to "one world" and everything that could come with that. Perhaps most fundamental, of course, is the whole concept of "Possibilities," which could be VERY instructional. Also, the default setting is 1990 - the USSR's still hanging in there, and you could have fun telling kids all about public phone booths, and the all-new SEGA GENESIS, and how your Constitutional rights stayed with you even on an airplane! WOW!!!
Also of note is PARANOIA RPG: I've played it a couple times, and I probably DON'T recommend it for a high-school class, for a number of reasons, BUT, provided you had a class of civilized kids with a sense of humor (this would probably be an even more exclusive and small class than anything you're presently planning), it could be an awesome context for, among other things, teaching about the Cold War and its paraphernalia.
...
First of all, your view that "a significant percentage of the people that manage to claw their way to the top in some of the high pressure professions are fairly socipathic [sic] personalities" is no accident - it's old news. Try reading Snakes In Suits by Paul Babiak and Robert D. Hare.
...
This might be a good point at which to bring up that "altruism" article you said you didn't understand the relevance of: Part of the point was that "good behavior" (and that includes "intelligent/rational behavior") is something inborn for most people...
Second, many people still don't believe it. I believe it, but because of personal observation. Studies, reports, and publications by sociologists and psychologists are to me one of the least convincing arguments.
.
Third, the nice/helpful behavior mentioned in the article has absolutely zero to do with 'intelligent/rational behavior.' It is certainly not 'inborn for most people.' Intelligent rational behavior is skill like any other that must be learned, developed, and practiced.
.
Fourth, teamwork does not necessarily involve breaking down the individual will to only think of the collective. Yes, there are people that think/act that way. If you only consider silly extremes, any course of action is going to end up bad/wrong.
.
Fifth, feel free to ignore/exclude any or all of my comments on teamwork. I have rarely seen the concept bother anyone this much, but whatever. I still think a group RPG like PF has a lot to help many people even if you don't consider this topic.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Back on topic please. I pointed out this thread to my wife (an elementary teacher). She is very much interested in the topic. She is going to try to talk the administration in her school into setting a club or ongoing tutoring type session specifically for this. (She doesn't see much chance of getting the school to accept it as an actual class.)
Anyone have any advice on how to present it to them? We were also discussing a demo with the Beginners Box. But many of them are probably to 'serious' to give it a chance.
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- I STRONGLY discourage getting involved with the "optimization" scene -This is crap.
Most high level business jobs are about mathematical optimization methods in some form or another, and all the best optimizers I've ever met in the business world come from a gaming background.
If I were a high school teacher, I would teach a class called "Strategic Optimization Methods." Curriculum:
1) Stochastic Methods
2) Statistics
3) Game Theory / Decision Theory
4) Microsoft Excel Basics
5) Axis And Allies
6) Titan
7) Pathfinder
8) BlokusMy students would be almost guaranteed $10k additional salary compared to the baseline student.
beej67,
engineer, small business owner, and college adjunct professor
This man, he knows the secret.
Also excel is a useful skill to have in almost any situation involving a large system of variables and data. I'm amazed every gamer on the planet doesn't worship at its altar.
This handout from Paizo might be useful...
Everybody should favor this post or otherwise find a way to make that page more visible. That's awesome.
- I STRONGLY discourage getting involved with the "optimization" scene -This is crap.
Most high level business jobs are about mathematical optimization methods in some form or another, and all the best optimizers I've ever met in the business world come from a gaming background.
If I were a high school teacher, I would teach a class called "Strategic Optimization Methods." Curriculum:
1) Stochastic Methods
2) Statistics
3) Game Theory / Decision Theory
4) Microsoft Excel Basics
5) Axis And Allies
6) Titan
7) Pathfinder
8) BlokusMy students would be almost guaranteed $10k additional salary compared to the baseline student.
beej67,
engineer, small business owner, and college adjunct professorThis man, he knows the secret.
Also excel is a useful skill to have in almost any situation involving a large system of variables and data. I'm amazed every gamer on the planet doesn't worship at its altar.
I love that game too. Unfortunately the people who I play it with are 1)a Mathematician, 2)a software developer, who specializes in optimization algorithms, and 3)an Engineering Professor. Needless to say I don't win often.
Double-check what that means. Not a valid counter-argument in this case.
I did just say:
/digression
That definition is sadly lacking. Don't know what joker wrote that up. Try again. Here.
The actual fallacy in an appeal to authority is NOT limited to when an authority is only a "supposed" authority as the site you linked very incorrectly states. It is a matter of whether you can prove the authority is objectively right in a subject at hand, and moreover, because it shows you are not reliant on your own research, but on that of somebody whose authority you cannot prove.
I say again. Appeal to Authority.
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I love that game too. Unfortunately the people who I play it with are 1)a Mathematician, 2)a software developer, who specializes in optimization algorithms, and 3)an Engineering Professor. Needless to say I don't win often.- I STRONGLY discourage getting involved with the "optimization" scene -This is crap.
Most high level business jobs are about mathematical optimization methods in some form or another, and all the best optimizers I've ever met in the business world come from a gaming background.
If I were a high school teacher, I would teach a class called "Strategic Optimization Methods." Curriculum:
1) Stochastic Methods
2) Statistics
3) Game Theory / Decision Theory
4) Microsoft Excel Basics
5) Axis And Allies
6) Titan
7) Pathfinder
8) BlokusMy students would be almost guaranteed $10k additional salary compared to the baseline student.
beej67,
engineer, small business owner, and college adjunct professorThis man, he knows the secret.
Also excel is a useful skill to have in almost any situation involving a large system of variables and data. I'm amazed every gamer on the planet doesn't worship at its altar.
I know that feeling.
I played it a ton in highschool, to the point where I pretty much always won against my friends. Then the only person who would play me was the AP calculus teacher. Results were less than optimal.
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Spoiler:Second, many people still don't believe it. I believe it, but because of personal observation. Studies, reports, and publications by sociologists and psychologists are to me one of the least convincing arguments.
Spoiler:Third, the nice/helpful behavior mentioned in the article has absolutely zero to do with 'intelligent/rational behavior.' It is certainly not 'inborn for most people.' Intelligent rational behavior is skill like any other that must be learned, developed, and practiced.
Spoiler:Fourth, teamwork does not necessarily involve breaking down the individual will to only think of the collective. Yes, there are people that think/act that way. If you only consider silly extremes, any course of action is going to end up bad/wrong.
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That definition is sadly lacking. Don't know what joker wrote that up. Try again. Here.
You think I didn't see and read that literally first thing? The two articles say the same thing, except the one I chose goes into greater depth.
...and moreover, because it shows you are not reliant on your own research, but on that of somebody whose authority you cannot prove.
...says the guy whose idea of doing better is the Wikipedia article. Give me a break. Have you ever heard of the Reader's Guide to Periodical Literature? If so, have you ever been required to use it (and not the version in the link I just happened to find, the physical library version) and the resources it points to, in addition to other books and (if you're lucky, like I was) personal interviewees (and oh yeah - Wikipedia is just over 1 year old at this point, so THAT'S out of the question; in fact, anything from the Internet is considered suspect, assuming it's permitted at all, which it probably won't be unless you can also find it in the RGPL), in a project that consumes multiple months (including, with the exception of time-out for a nice dinner and presents, every waking hour of your 16th birthday)? Until you've had to do something like that, don't you dare pretend to know the meaning of the word "research."
I say again. Appeal to Authority.
Okay, how about this authority? You might like him:
Anyone care to stop the hijacking of the thread so the OP doesn't get so bored that none of our advice matters?
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My advice to the OP is that it's a great idea but keep an eye on them in case some sort of "Lord of the Flies" attitude develops. Ultimately, immersive role-play is unfettered; it doesn't matter that it's going on in their imaginations, people (adults and children) can so let go of themselves that if you're not careful you can get some real personality issues developing.
Of course, that's what makes the game so wonderful as well, but with kids you've got to watch them a little bit in case things get ugly.
Richard
... As for the second point: What? Forgive me, but you're not that dentist from the Texas textbook board who's rallying cry was "stand up to the experts," are you? You believe it because of personal observation - well, how do you think sociologists and psychologists achieve their status? They spend all their time doing exactly that and much, much more ...
Never been to Texas, so not sure what that is about.
In my (admittedly limited) experience, the psychologists and sociologist are sadly lacking in rational critical thought, don't actually observe anything (they pick and chose from other people's observations), observe but only include the observations that support their pet hypothesis, confuse causation/correlation, etc...In every single case where I had any first hand experience or information on the subject involved, they were way off base.
- I went to a counselor to try and learn some coping strategies to deal with a job I hated until I could afford to move. Counselor was bound and determined to convince me that my parents abused me.
- Study on cognitive psychology proving how and why organic thought is so superior to 'computerized thought.' Thesis is supportable, but every example but 1 on what computers can or can't do was incorrect at the time it was being written. Author was at least 20-25 years out of date on what computers, programs, and algorithms can do and have done. Which in the computer industry is huge expanse of time. But the author didn't even bother to check to see if anything had changed in the last couple of decades.
- I got volunteered to be part of an observational study. The professor insisted I was a latent left handed person because I kept my wallet in my left rear pocket. Incorrect. It was a long term habit because the slacks I used to get only had a button on the left rear pocket not the right rear pocket. I wanted the wallet secure, so kept it in that pocket. I have kept the habit because I now keep my phone in the right rear pocket. The prof insisted I was a latent left handed person and just didn't realize it. When leaving I picked up my bag with my left hand and the prof jumped on that to prove I was a latent lefty. Incorrect. Over the years my left arm is a bit stronger than my right arm. This is because I have made a conscious decision to carry things with my left hand (when only using one hand) to keep my much more coordinated right hand free. I can write, use keys, open a combination lock, use a phone, etc... with my right hand. Prof stated that I only made that decision because I was a latent lefty. If I hadn't been I wouldn't have made the decision.
- I have a few other examples, but I won't go into them at this time since they end up fairly similar.
Are all of the psychologists and sociologists complete flakes? No. I never said they were. But my personal experiences have made me less able to accept their word than almost any other 'expert analysis' profession that can think of at this time.
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Hey DMHW. :-)
I skimmed through most of this, and my thought didn't jump out as having been espoused yet--if it has, apologies.
For more advanced role players, RP can teach empathy.
In my experience, most folks default to playing themselves, pretty much. It takes RP chops, and some guts, to go against your own morals/ideas/MO and play a character that is substantively different than you are. I seriously doubt you'd get this far in your first class, but if next year you did a second series for not-newbie players, this aspect could be looked at more closely.
And it's clealry a skill that would transfer into what passes for RL; being able to really understand someone else goes a heluva long way in udnerstanding their contrary position(s), thus makes for better discourse and, hopefully, better understanding.