I always thought of it just like Diego described, same with my whole group I think. This seems like something they might label "no faq needed" since it seems like a play style/dm call thing.The rules specifically say you can do something, so while someone might ignore the rule, the intent of the rule should still be answered. I don't use the "damage magic items on a nat 1" rule, but it is still a rule.
Playstyle rulings should be for things such as charm and dominate spells which will vary by the creature targeted, and how far a GM wants charm person to go before it becomes dominate person.
Alignment based questions are also subjective.
Now if DR is saying that you may or may not get enough information to use for a teleport spell while scrying on someone I can agree, but from what I am reading he is saying "I don't care what teleport says about scry. It does not work".
Fair enough. I always just thought the mention of scrying under teleport was just for if the scrying tipped you off to the location, say if you scried obama and recognized the oval office... now you know where to teleport to. I never thought it would do you any good if you scried him and just saw the inside of a range rover for example...
But looking at the wording under teleport I see now the problem with my take. Still works for me for the style of game I like but I suppose it's house rule territory.
Nothing about seeing a location or part it says you have to know where it is. Otherwise the "viewed once" idea will fails. Seeing something without having been there is a qualifier per RAW. The other qualifiers imply that it helps if you have been there many times and know the area well, but anything beyond having seen it is a houserule.
Yes, scrying only works on people, but since you can see around the creature, you can still see the area.
Example:
NPC X is kidnapped.
You scry on him and see that he is surrounded by 4 tables made of gold. <--assumes no magic is used to make you see a false image.
Nothing is stopping you from teleporting there once you have seen the image unless you roll low on the chart. If it is greater teleportation there is no chance for error.
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Nothing about seeing a location or part it says you have to know where it is. Otherwise the "viewed once" idea will fails. Seeing something without having been there is a qualifier per RAW. The other qualifiers imply that it helps if you have been there many times and know the area well, but anything beyond having seen it is a houserule.
Yes, scrying only works on people, but since you can see around the creature, you can still see the area.
Example:
NPC X is kidnapped.
You scry on him and see that he is surrounded by 4 tables made of gold. <--assumes no magic is used to make you see a false image.
Now if DR is saying that you may or may not get enough information to use for a teleport spell while scrying on someone I can agree, but from what I am reading he is saying "I don't care what teleport says about scry. It does not work".
Please read my posts. You are wrong.
"may or may not get enough information to use for a teleport spell while scrying on someone" is exactly what I am saying. I think that generally you don't get enough informations to know the location of the person you are scrying but I have given several examples of situations in which you get enough informations.In I have pointed several times to the text of the tekeport spell. It say that "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." both are very precise requirements.
Scrying sure give you the layout of the destination but to get the location through a scrying spell you need to scry some recognizable piece of the landscape or get the information some other thing that you see in the 10' circle around the target.
BTW, it say: “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.
So viewed once is applied to every location that you have viewed once, included speeding through a village while traveling, seen it from a distance from a hilltop or visited once in the past.
Scrying having some limitation don't change that viewed once is a perfectly applicable condition.
"I teleport to 4 tables made of gold". that is knowing the layout not the location.
Why you dismiss part of the spell rules?
Nothing about seeing a location or part it says you have to know where it is. Otherwise the "viewed once" idea will fails. Seeing something without having been there is a qualifier per RAW. The other qualifiers imply that it helps if you have been there many times and know the area well, but anything beyond having seen it is a houserule.
Yes, scrying only works on people, but since you can see around the creature, you can still see the area.
Example:
NPC X is kidnapped.
You scry on him and see that he is surrounded by 4 tables made of gold. <--assumes no magic is used to make you see a false image.
Now if DR is saying that you may or may not get enough information to use for a teleport spell while scrying on someone I can agree, but from what I am reading he is saying "I don't care what teleport says about scry. It does not work".Please read my posts. You are wrong.
"may or may not get enough information to use for a teleport spell while scrying on someone" is exactly what I am saying. I think that generally you don't get enough informations to know the location of the person you are scrying but I have given several examples of situations in which you get enough informations.In I have pointed several times to the text of the tekeport spell. It say that "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." both are very precise requirements.
Scrying sure give you the layout of the destination but to get the location through a scrying spell you need to scry some recognizable piece of the landscape or get the information some other thing that you see in the 10' circle around the target.BTW, it say: “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.
So viewed once is applied to every location that you have viewed once, included speeding through a village while traveling, seen it from a distance from a hilltop or visited once in the past.
Scrying having some...
If the destination is a small room why would scrying not work? According to the teleport spell scrying works.
So once again I ask give me a scenario where you think scrying does work since the book says it is usable.
edit: You seem to be assuming that you can not scry and get a clear idea of the location and layout.
you can also teleport based on descriptions of the layout and location. but it is a lot more difficult to do it.
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Do you have any further rules text that supports your point of view?
Nope: there are only two things going for this interpretation. One is that Teleport says you MUST have a CLEAR idea of the LOCATION and the Scry spell doesn't say it always gives a clear idea of the location. That's enough to make it RAW if you believe that the Layout & Location clause is independent of, rather than defined by, the success rate table.
The other advantage is in game balance and fun. The ability to teleport routinely to places you've never been seems like a bad idea for anyone who wants to have enjoyable mid-level games. It invalidates all kinds of Lord-of-the-Rings type adventures - either the PCs can skip past all the dangers and murder the bad guys in their sleep, or the dark lord can murder the PCs while they sleep.
Sure, there are ways around this - teleport traps and so on - but the 'it only works if you can deduce the location from what you see while scrying' interpretation seems like a pretty playable one. It allows a balance of GM narrative power against caster narrative power.
So at the GM's discretion you might see the dark lord in his workshop. You have already seen the dark lord's tower on a distant hill so you know the approximate location. You deduce from the fact that there is a ladder going down but not a ladder going up that he is on the top floor of the tower, so you teleport there. If you were right, the spell works.
Sometimes it's easy. "You see the dark lord attacking your home village." Sometimes it's impossible. "The dark lord is in an underground room, surrounded by tables of treasure - you have no idea where this could be." Sometimes it's possible only by research/deduction. "You see the dark lord and his minion in a city, looking up at something. The minion says, 'That must be the biggest temple in the continent!' The dark lord replies, 'Third biggest, actually'."
With regards to location, all the spell knows is that you are "here" and that you want to go "there" and the only way it knows how to get to "there" without relying on descriptions is with accurate bearings and displacments.
That's also going to be controversial. If you do it by bearing and displacements, it implies that you need to know the location relative to where you are now to within a five foot radius. "We are going to travel 3.73 miles at a bearing 23 degrees from North." Would you be able to calculate that when you wanted to teleport home? Maybe Location is intended to mean the information you'd get from Discern Location - "Diego's computer room in his home at 23 Main Street, Townsville". There's no way to tell from the spell description how the caster designates where he wants to go. Unless there's a new FAQ, it comes down to what feels right to the GM.
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Doesn't Teleport work by picturing the room/location/exact area you want to go?
So if the Wizard clicks his ruby red slippers and says "I want to go home" the image of HIS home is where he wants to go. He pictures his bed and Poof there he is, he knows he exact location and room he wishes to go to and he is there.
Do you have any further rules text that supports your point of view?Nope: there are only two things going for this interpretation. One is that Teleport says you MUST have a CLEAR idea of the LOCATION and the Scry spell doesn't say it always gives a clear idea of the location. That's enough to make it RAW if you believe that the Layout & Location clause is independent of, rather than defined by, the success rate table.
The other advantage is in game balance and fun. The ability to teleport routinely to places you've never been seems like a bad idea for anyone who wants to have enjoyable mid-level games. It invalidates all kinds of Lord-of-the-Rings type adventures - either the PCs can skip past all the dangers and murder the bad guys in their sleep, or the dark lord can murder the PCs while they sleep.
Sure, there are ways around this - teleport traps and so on - but the 'it only works if you can deduce the location from what you see while scrying' interpretation seems like a pretty playable one. It allows a balance of GM narrative power against caster narrative power.
So at the GM's discretion you might see the dark lord in his workshop. You have already seen the dark lord's tower on a distant hill so you know the approximate location. You deduce from the fact that there is a ladder going down but not a ladder going up that he is on the top floor of the tower, so you teleport there. If you were right, the spell works.
Sometimes it's easy. "You see the dark lord attacking your home village." Sometimes it's impossible. "The dark lord is in an underground room, surrounded by tables of treasure - you have no idea where this could be." Sometimes it's possible only by research/deduction. "You see the dark lord and his minion in a city, looking up at something. The minion says, 'That must be the biggest temple in the continent!' The dark lord replies, 'Third biggest, actually'."
Exactly how I feel^^
There's no way to tell from the spell description how the caster designates where he wants to go.
I thought it was pretty clear that the spell works by the caster forming a mental image of the destination. Is that ambiguous? It sure doesn't seem like it.
Would you be able to calculate that when you wanted to teleport home? Maybe Location is intended to mean the information you'd get from Discern Location - "Diego's computer room in his home at 23 Main Street, Townsville".
Another reason I don't like the reading that substitutes position (or even worse, address!) for location, even as a house rule, is because it messes up the larger function of teleport in order to fix this small problem.
For instance, going through Savage Tide right now, a big part of that adventure takes place on an uncharted island and the party spends a long time there. We don't actually know the precise positions of many places we've all been before - up to and including home to our own beds - because, you know, uncharted. As for addresses, just forget about it.
I miss one of my old books where they could scry on someone and if you had seen the area they were in good and if you hadn't all you saw was the person in a blank white space. Possibly floating if they happened to be sitting on something.
Fair enough. I always just thought the mention of scrying under teleport was just for if the scrying tipped you off to the location, say if you scried obama and recognized the oval office... now you know where to teleport to. I never thought it would do you any good if you scried him and just saw the inside of a range rover for example...
But looking at the wording under teleport I see now the problem with my take. Still works for me for the style of game I like but I suppose it's house rule territory.
One problem is that if you have to recognize the place in order to qualify for 'viewed once' by using scrying... well, you probably wouldn't 'recognize' it unless you'd already viewed it at least once before scrying in the first place.
A second is that, if you want to be able to teleport to the Oval Office based on recognizing it through a scrying, yeah, a number of us would recognize it by heart, but how many know its exact position?
I don't know the exact position of Boston - either relative to my own position or in GPS coordinates or whatever - and I went to high school there.
However on Golarion, the layouts and descriptions of ruler's places of power aren't widely distributed on easily accessible media.Fair enough. I always just thought the mention of scrying under teleport was just for if the scrying tipped you off to the location, say if you scried obama and recognized the oval office... now you know where to teleport to. I never thought it would do you any good if you scried him and just saw the inside of a range rover for example...
But looking at the wording under teleport I see now the problem with my take. Still works for me for the style of game I like but I suppose it's house rule territory.
One problem is that if you have to recognize the place in order to qualify for 'viewed once' by using scrying... well, you probably wouldn't 'recognize' it unless you'd already viewed it at least once before scrying in the first place.
A second is that, if you want to be able to teleport to the Oval Office based on recognizing it through a scrying, yeah, a number of us would recognize it by heart, but how many know its exact position?
Right... which makes it much MORE likely that you'd have to have been there personally to recognize the Golarion equivalent, meaning that you'd be required to view it once before scrying in order to get 'viewed once' from the scrying.
Oh hey, it's this thread again.
Diego, a valiant attempt, but your interpretation seems distinctly unconvincing to me. I don't think it is strongly grounded enough to upturn the orthodox interpretation (or even throw significant question on it), and it's also out of line with official precedent (I believe Skull and Shackles has been cited already in this discussion, which provides an example of using scrying to teleport to a location - deck of a moving ship outside of line of sight - whose map position you would not know).
I also don't think it would actually be a good way to limit the spell if we were houseruling. A map position requirement seems to introduce several interpretation problems.
Skull & Shackles Player companion:
Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Teleport, Teleportation Circle: Because ships are constantly in motion, the caster of spells of the teleportation subschool must have line of sight to teleport onto a ship. Otherwise, a caster must scry upon a particular ship first, then immediately teleport to the scryed destination. Any delay in casting means the ship has moved from its scryed location and the spell fails.Please explain how do you use the Scry spell to scry a ship, as the spell Scry target a person.Easy, the text doesn't say 'scry a ship' it says 'scry upon a ship', as in you scry a person who is upon that particular ship.
Edit: Doh, note to self, read ahead.
Skull & Shackles Player companion is just that-a Player companion. They dont do FAQ and rarely errata, and stuff creeps in that's wrong at times.
If there were a strong reason to conclude that it is wrong - like, say, it was obviously in contradiction to the core rules - sure. But it's not. There is in fact a plain reading of the core rules that is perfectly in harmony with what Skull and Shackles says. As Occam prescribed, let's not multiply entities unnecessarily. We don't need to invent a series of printed convolutions and mistakes to explain how the printed material came to exist despite the 'real' intended teleportation-and-scrying rules, when there is a ready explanation available that works just fine with the rules as printed, without adding any of that.
I'm also not quite sure I agree with an approach that dismisses printed player's companions as unauthoritative but gives RAI authority to off-the-cuff message board posts discussing the setting guy's house rules. If the Skull and Shackles player's guide is inadmissible (and I will admit it does not carry as great weight by itself as the core rules; the point is that it is in harmony with them), then where does that leave houserules from the Ask James Jacobs thread? :p
Has this topic been forgotten? It used to be pretty high up on the number of requested FAQs?
Yes. If you look at the opening post it even says answered in the errata.
Yes. If you look at the opening post it even says answered in the errata.
what errata, where?
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The Ranged Tactics Tool box brings up the topic of Scry and Teleport as a recommended tactic.
Here is what it had to say on the subject.
Scry and Teleport: The combination of divination
(scrying) and conjuration (teleportation) spells can make
for a potent offensive option. Scrying can provide vital
information about a foe’s vulnerabilities and defenses
before the spellcaster teleports in to strike at the most
opportune moment—provided she carries off her plan
before the scrying sensor is noticed.
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The Ranged Tactics Tool box brings up the topic of Scry and Teleport as a recommended tactic.
Here is what it had to say on the subject.
Scry and Teleport: The combination of divination
(scrying) and conjuration (teleportation) spells can make
for a potent offensive option. Scrying can provide vital
information about a foe’s vulnerabilities and defenses
before the spellcaster teleports in to strike at the most
opportune moment—provided she carries off her plan
before the scrying sensor is noticed.
That's not errata.
Developer
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It's also worth noting that is specifically talking about (scrying) spells, as in the sub school of divination magic, and (teleportation), as in the sub school of conjuration, as being, in general, things that can work well together. It is not discussing the individual scrying and teleport spells.
Further, it talks about scrying-subschool magic giving useful information about a target's defenses prior to making a subschool-teleportation-augmented attack, not about whether scrying qualifies you to use teleport spell.
It doesn't really address this specific question t all.
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It also doesn't say that Scrying provides enough information about the location to be able to teleport there. It just references learning about the "foe's vulnerabilities and defenses."That's not errata.The Ranged Tactics Tool box brings up the topic of Scry and Teleport as a recommended tactic.
Here is what it had to say on the subject.
Scry and Teleport: The combination of divination
(scrying) and conjuration (teleportation) spells can make
for a potent offensive option. Scrying can provide vital
information about a foe’s vulnerabilities and defenses
before the spellcaster teleports in to strike at the most
opportune moment—provided she carries off her plan
before the scrying sensor is noticed.
The Teleport spell itself provides that.
Familiarity: "Very familiar" is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. "Studied carefully" is a place you know well, either because you can currently physically see it or you've been there often. "Seen casually" is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. "Viewed once" is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.
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This is why we need a FAQ. "answered in errata" is incorrect.
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Maybe it means they just decided to go with the text as written, which means scrying lets you count as "viewed once" when teleporting. It isn't the first time James has suggested one thing and then it didn't make it past the entire design team.
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Ultimate Intrigue clears this up, and though the option isn't called "answered in book", "answered in errata" seemed the most accurate of the buttons available, since it wasn't a FAQ, it's not no response required, and it's not question unclear.
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This is pretty cut and dry... Teleport specifically references the familiarity acquired with scrying, how could it be more clear?
Legal boilerplate?
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So the gist I'm getting from the passage in Ultimate Intrigue is that not only can Scrying Sensors be spotted with a DC24 Perception check but also that the Scrying spell does not in fact give you the location...just the specific area around the target.
So example I guess
Wizard A is trying to find and murder Wizard B. He attempts to scry on Wizard B and succeeds yada yada. Unless Wizard A already knew where Wizard B is generally, he would not be able to teleport there based on solely the information from scrying.
Unless he was familiar with the general area and could figure it out from context clues. An example of that would be a particular culture's style of furnishing being a clue to where the Wizard might be. A Tian Xia rug on the floor for instance.
A DC 24 perception check? That is so low. Pretty much any group of adventurers will spot something like that.
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It's also invisible, so that puts it at 44 (64 if it's not on the move, which isn't the caster's choice but depends on the target) unless you have up see invisibility or the like. Those are the rules in the CRB for noticing a sensor, just they're in a weird spot.
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It's also invisible, so that puts it at 44 (64 if it's not on the move, which isn't the caster's choice but depends on the target) unless you have up see invisibility or the like. Those are the rules in the CRB for noticing a sensor, just they're in a weird spot.
I should check them again. What give you that 24/44? 20 + spell level + invisibility if applicable?
Aye. 27 for greater (and 25 if you're scrying as a cleric since it's 5th).
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Wizard A already knew where Wizard B is generally, he would not be able to teleport there based on solely the information from scrying.
Unless he was familiar with the general area and could figure it out from context clues. An example of that would be a particular culture's style of furnishing being a clue to where the Wizard might be. A Tian Xia rug on the floor for instance.
"So, I've got it narrowed down to one extremely large continent, Tian Xia. He's either there, or he bought an imported rug."
I haven't read Ultimate Intrigue, but isn't the location requirement a bit more stringent than that?
This is pretty cut and dry... Teleport specifically references the familiarity acquired with scrying, how could it be more clear?
There are (were?) three possible interpretations:
(1) Scrying always gives you sufficient information to teleport there.
(2) Scrying sometimes gives you sufficient information to teleport there.
(3) Scrying never gives you sufficient information to teleport there.
The reference to scrying in the Teleport description would appear to rule out interpretation 3, but is consistent with interpretation 2. The "must have a clear idea of location" bit appears to rule out interpretation 1, unless scrying is more powerful than the scrying spell says, or unless you decide to treat the "location" bit as flavor text.
That leaves option 2, which (by the sound of it) is what Ultimate Intrigue says.
My take on "scry & fry" is that you can't.
When you scry someone, you look at them... NOT their location. You get a little information about where they are but not much. In my games, you can't scry & fry unless the person you're scrying on happens to be in an area you recognize; if they're somewhere you've never heard of before, you can't use teleport. Greater teleport would work but only if while you scry them they talk about or otherwise reveal exactly where they are.
More like 2 than 3 - a "scrying rarely works" interpretation.
I reconcile it by saying that when you scry someone, you view a person, NOT a place, and thus simply ignore the bit of text that says you can scry to gain the viewed once condition. This makes for a better game play experience in my opinion.
Note also that he was making a house ruling for the sake of game balance rather than paying much attention to RAW.
It's also invisible, so that puts it at 44 (64 if it's not on the move, which isn't the caster's choice but depends on the target) unless you have up see invisibility or the like. Those are the rules in the CRB for noticing a sensor, just they're in a weird spot.I should check them again. What give you that 24/44? 20 + spell level + invisibility if applicable?
The rules do not indicate the sensor gets a bonus for being invisible anywhere.
ALL Scrying sensors are invisible
ALL Scrying sensors have a DC of 20+level.
It doesn't indicate anywhere that they get any additional bonuses to that DC. Especially because the DC is NOT a stealth check it's just a DC to notice it. And Invisibility only applies a bonus to stealth checks.
A creature can notice the sensor by making a Perception check with a DC 20 + the spell level. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.
Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a Scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is blocked.
Isn't Scrying referenced in Skulls and Shackles as being sufficient (and in most cases necessary) to Teleport to the deck of a moving ship?
Doesn't 'Scrying doesn't give a location' invalidate that that?
Yup, unless you can see the ship on the horizon, or scry on their navigational charts, or something like that.
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Isn't Scrying referenced in Skulls and Shackles as being sufficient (and in most cases necessary) to Teleport to the deck of a moving ship?
Doesn't 'Scrying doesn't give a location' invalidate that that?
It's either a case of AP designer didn't know the rules, or a case of rules team decides to change the rules after the AP had come out.
So what does it say in UI?