The basic reason is that theres a segment of players and even some at paizo that DONT want it to work, so they're going to needlessly complicate the straightforward reading of the spells using techniques that are as old as RPG's to cloud the waters in order to feel like they're RAW rather than just houseruling it.
There is also a segment of players and even some at Paizo that take a straightforward meaning in the text of a spell and summarily ignore the parts they don't like or hand-wave what they mean as unimportant.
Like the difference between layout and destination. Somehow they think that scry gives both, when it obviously does not.
That's where the guidance in Ultimate Intrigue comes in, and why some players are bent out of shape that the way they have played isn't as close to RAW as they would have liked.
Why that bothers some people, I don't know. All this guidance does is delay when you can "scry and fry" back a bit to level 15 or so, not eliminate the tactic from the game altogether.
There is no need to houserule it.
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Like the difference between layout and destination. Somehow they think that scry gives both, when it obviously does not.It ain't obvious to me.
School divination (scrying); Level bard 3, cleric 5, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 hour
Components V, S, M/DF (a pool of water), F (a silver mirror worth 1,000 gp)
Range see text
Effect magical sensor
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You can observe a creature at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the spell fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well your knowledge of the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.
Knowledge Will Save Modifier
None* +10
Secondhand (you have heard of the subject) +5
Firsthand (you have met the subject) +0
Familiar (you know the subject well) –5
Connection Will Save Modifier
Likeness or picture –2
Possession or garment –4
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. –10
*You must have some sort of connection (see below) to a creature of which you have no knowledge.
If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and its surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject). If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet.
As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.
If the save succeeds, you can't attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours.
Show me, in the spell in the spoiler where it says that it gives information about the location of the target. Location enough for me to walk there from my current location. Hell, even the distance and direction are enough -- because Teleport has limitations on the maximum distance you can teleport.
Go ahead.
But you have no idea of the location of that place. Which the words of the teleport spell clearly says you need.
TOZ I don't understand the confusion.
Is it that you think...
A: teleport doesn't require knowledge of the location?
Or
B: Scrying gives you the location of the thing you're Scrying?
It doesn't have to give enough information for you to walk there. You have to have a mental image of the place.
Actually, for it to be useful to Teleport, yes it does. You are ignoring the need for a clear destination, the only thing that scry gives is layout (aka clear mental image of the place).
What you want is for Scry to give the information that Discern Location does.
In order to get anything other than "false destination" or just a failed spell, you need 2 things. Objective Location, and Layout.
Scrying gives you layout -- a visual of the area. It does not give location -- which is an objective measure of the destination of the teleport. Scrying does not provide this.
Discern Location only provides a name. It doesn't say anything such as 20 miles north and 40 miles to the west.
"Clear idea" of the location could be mean you would have to be able to locate it on an unlabeled globe/map, but so far I've seen no evidence as to what it means. We do know that scrying counts as the lowest tier of teleport working because it is used in the example.
PS: I did read more than one line. I just don't see anything other than " I don't want it to work this way even though the book uses it as a specific example".
Edit. Would a knowledge(geography) check give objective locations?
The spell says you need to have a clear idea of the location. It doesn't say that scrying removes that requirement. UI reinforces the fact that scrying does not remove the requirement. I agree it wasn't clear before, but now we've made ourselves clear. The part about running it the other way was for groups that prefer scry and fry; I think it's important for us to give you our explanation, but then it's still important that each group considers what we say and runs it the way that works best for that group, whatever that might be. Particularly in an intrigue game, though, I highly recommend running it the way we've clarified.
the CRB doesn't say that casting the spell overrides needing to have a clear idea of the location as well.
Therein lies the problem. It's hard to come to an agreement on the proper interpretation of the rules when something that *isn't* said is so significant.
There is also the problem is when the style of play is not agreed upon and when that happens, an "official interpretation" is requested from a neutral party (aka game designers).
"Play it your way" isn't a helpful answer.
What are the normal rules and what counts as a "clear idea"?
PS: Is this clarification in a book or somewhere on the forums?
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If teleportation needed the location the way your claiming, then it would never function. The location is always moving.
To those of you saying it doesn't work I will ask a 3rd time tell me how the mentioning of scying in the teleport spell is supposed to work then?
It is a rule in the book so saying it doesn't work is just like saying "I dont like what the book says".
Also it is referring to the spell, not just a descriptor, which is shown in my last post.
Feel free to check the spells I referenced as examples.
Hey Wraith, the basic idea is that teleport has these two conditions that need to be met. Location and Layout. Once those are met, you can attempt, so you look at the table to figure your chance. Scrying gets mentioned there because it is one way you may have gotten some familiarity with the layout of the destination, which will help your odds of a successful teleport... But if you don't know what location you want to go to, you are still out of luck.
Now I am not saying this is how it's supposed to work, but when my group read this over that is what we thought the description meant. So, it is one possible conclusion some might reach when reading these spell descriptions. Keep in mind though, we didn't play 3.x before pathfinder, so we decided this without knowing the legacy.
Anyway, if that interpretation was shown to me to be different than the designer's intended one, I think I would keep my take on it in play as a house rule, because it supports a lot of story possibilities I enjoy.
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Now as for Paizo making a ruling here, and calling it a clarification rather than errata, I see some folks (not you wraith) seem to feel they are being disingenuous or unethical. I would rather give them the benefit of the doubt here though.
Pathfinder was pretty much a tweaked version of 3.x when it started out right? And I understand there was a pretty short time between beta and 1st printing. It's always possible that in areas where multiple interpretations of the text are possible, the team that designed pathfinder favored one interpretation, and will...
I really don't care for it as a GM or player, but if scrying does not fit the last requirement anymore then they need to use another example. Otherwise they should just say it works, but advise against it.
In other words I don't have a horse in this race, but I do like straight forward rules. This one is not making the cut if Paizo doesn't want it to work.
Discern Location only provides a name. It doesn't say anything such as 20 miles north and 40 miles to the west."Clear idea" of the location could be mean you would have to be able to locate it on an unlabeled globe/map, but so far I've seen no evidence as to what it means. We do know that scrying counts as the lowest tier of teleport working because it is used in the example.
PS: I did read more than one line. I just don't see anything other than " I don't want it to work this way even though the book uses it as a specific example".
Edit. Would a knowledge(geography) check give objective locations?
I could read your post, but all I see is "I want it to work this way despite demonstrable evidence to the contrary due to a single vague sentence. And I will hand-wave another sentence into oblivion while demanding 'guidance' that is common sense."
You sound like those guys who think you can sneak attack with ranged weapons.
You've come to a conclusion despite statements from the designers, text that states the exact same thing in the spells themselves, as well as official textual clarifications in books recently published.
So, yeah, not going to go further. House rule it all you like, but you aren't playing RAW any more than the Ranged Sneak-Attack by Flank are playing RAW.
But you have no idea of the location of that place. Which the words of the teleport spell clearly says you need."That room" isn't enough of a location? I don't see that in the spell descriptions.
The room is layout. Where is this room? Take me on a trip to this room without teleport.
But you have no idea of the location of that place. Which the words of the teleport spell clearly says you need."That room" isn't enough of a location? I don't see that in the spell descriptions.The room is layout. Where is this room? Take me on a trip to this room without teleport.
Being able to do that probably constitutes "very familiar" and thus very low failure chance as per the spell description.
The room is layout.No, the room is a location.
No, the room has a location.
Here's a question: Teleport has a limited range (100 miles per level of the caster). How do you know the room is within that range? Scry doesn't provide a "range to target".
Being able to do that probably constitutes "very familiar" and thus very low failure chance as per the spell description.But you have no idea of the location of that place. Which the words of the teleport spell clearly says you need."That room" isn't enough of a location? I don't see that in the spell descriptions.The room is layout. Where is this room? Take me on a trip to this room without teleport.
No, being able to do that allows you to get to your destination and not some other destination. If you don't know where it is, it is impossible to get to. You can try, but it won't work.
Here's a question: Teleport has a limited range (100 miles per level of the caster). How do you know the room is within that range? Scry doesn't provide a "range to target".You don't have to know. If it's out of range, the teleport fails.
You do have to know, the spell description says you have to know.
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.
"That room" is not a location. You have no idea where that destination is, as you cannot guide me there. Teleport (see the sentence above) requires this knowledge prior to even having the chance for success.
Without this knowledge, the spell automatically fails -- or you get a "false destination" of something similar that lies within it's range.
No, being able to do that allows you to get to your destination and not some other destination. If you don't know where it is, it is impossible to get to. You can try, but it won't work.Being able to do that probably constitutes "very familiar" and thus very low failure chance as per the spell description.But you have no idea of the location of that place. Which the words of the teleport spell clearly says you need."That room" isn't enough of a location? I don't see that in the spell descriptions.The room is layout. Where is this room? Take me on a trip to this room without teleport.
Being able to do that still does not guarantee you arriving at the correct destination (if not greater teleport). If you have only viewed once (possibly using magic such as scrying) and don't have a clear idea of where that location is then you have up to a 25% chance of the teleport not functioning correctly. Including going to another location that looks similar (anywhere from 1-9%).
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"That room" is not a location. You have no idea where that destination is, as you cannot guide me there. Teleport (see the sentence above) requires this knowledge prior to even having the chance for success.
You don't have to have an idea of where it is. You need a mental picture of the location.
A room is absolutely a location. You don't need to know an address. It doesn't have to be named. But not knowing those things makes it less clear and more likely to fail.
Being able to do that still does not guarantee you arriving at the correct destination (if not greater teleport).
I was referring to using mundane methods of travel. If you know your destination, you know how to get there mundanely.
If you have no clear idea of the destination, you have no chance of getting there, teleport or otherwise.
If you have a clear idea of the destination...say a room in the Empire State Building (a location), I can scry a person I suspect is in the Empire State Buildng, and I still only have a 25% chance to arrive without incident.
The Teleport spell does not assist in the knowledge needed to successfully teleport, and Scry only provides the layout of the destination so you have even that slim chance of not having a teleport incident.
"That room" is not a location. You have no idea where that destination is, as you cannot guide me there. Teleport (see the sentence above) requires this knowledge prior to even having the chance for success.You don't have to have an idea of where it is. You need a mental picture of the location.
A room is absolutely a location. You don't need to know an address. It doesn't have to be named. But not knowing those things makes it less clear and more likely to fail.
You do need to know the address, at least after a fashion. The location needs to be identified.
You must have some clear idea of the location...
"That room" is not a clear idea of the location, anymore than "my basement" is a clear idea of a location to someone who has never been here, and me streaming a live video from my basement (scrying) doesn't help in this regard.
You are completely hand-waving the requirement of having a clear idea of the location.
If that is how you want to play it, go for it, but don't even think it's close to RAW.
TriOmegaZero:
I'm going to challenge you to find, on google maps "Quintain's house". Let's presume that I'm streaming a live video feed from my basement office while you do your search. You have 40 minutes (longest possible duration of a scry spell).
Go.
Why would I do that? I'd just use the mental image of your room from the video and teleport there.
Ok, once you get here, how do you know you are actually in my house and not my twin brother's house?
Let's say you are a police man. I'm wanted for murder and have a bounty on my head. If you kill me, you are a hero. However, my brother is completely innocent and has a wife and two kids.
Based on your description, you have a 50/50 chance of being a hero or a murderer.
To put it another way, due to this ambiguity, you do not have a clear idea of your destination.
Which means your teleport can't even function. Scry does not provide this information.
If I roll high enough on my Perception, I may recognize inconsistencies in the room decor from what I saw via the video feed.
There are none, and the rooms are identical. The people are idenitcal. Sorry.
Then what would actually qualify for teleport?
Let's say I find out your house is in Champaign, IL. While I'm sure I could find out the actual directions to get there, I don't actually know them off the top of my head.
Does that mean I can't teleport to Champaign, IL? Does teleport only work for people who actually have memorized travel to every possible recognizable destination?
What would qualify to teleport to Champaign, IL? Just say, I teleport to the center of town (hey! that's a specific spot) in Champaign, IL. Now, having not been there previously, you would have a pretty good chance of arriving off-destination, but you'd be close -- in some town within range of the teleport.
If you know the name of an actual building in Champaign, you could use that, which would give you a better chance of arriving on target.
What you can't do is "teleport to Quintain's location" without knowing where I am (objectively speaking), and seeing me and the area 10' around me is not enough to narrow that down unless there is something truly significant that is able to identify said location objectively.
If you want to know what would qualify absolutely, check the spell Discern Location.
There are none, and the rooms are identical. The people are idenitcal. Sorry.I fail to see your point. The spell worked according to the rules about being off target.
Again, no one is saying that you can't use these combination of spells, what is being said is that in order to use teleport, you need to "have a clear idea of the destination". Viewing me on a television does not provide that information.
Here's an example.
You are watching the nightly news: Do you know where that newscaster is located by just using the picture on your television.
Answer: no. This is what scry provides.
Now, if you know where your local TV station is located, you have a chance (25% to be exact, if you are looking at the live news cast for the first time) of being able to use teleport to get there.
Otherwise, sorry, won't work. You need more information than you have in order to succeed at scry and fry.
If you try to teleport without this detail of information, you are going to either a) failing to teleport altogether, or scrying and frying some poor innocent weatherman on national television.
Yes, but you haven't told me what the effective difference is between specifying Champaign, IL vs. Quntain's House.
If I ask the right person, I can get directions to Champaign. If I ask the right person (you) I can get directions to Quntain's House.
If I don't ask directions, I don't know how to get to either place.
So, what is the difference for the spell to work in one case but not the other?
Because scry doesn't provide directions to my house, nor does it provide directions to Champaign, IL.
That is extra information you need to get using a method other than scry.
Gathering information via Diplomacy, or Discern Location work.
But if I'm not in my house, you can't use "Quintain" or even "the 10' radius around Quintain" as a location. Which is what everyone is trying to use.
Discern Location only provides a name. It doesn't say anything such as 20 miles north and 40 miles to the west."Clear idea" of the location could be mean you would have to be able to locate it on an unlabeled globe/map, but so far I've seen no evidence as to what it means. We do know that scrying counts as the lowest tier of teleport working because it is used in the example.
PS: I did read more than one line. I just don't see anything other than " I don't want it to work this way even though the book uses it as a specific example".
Edit. Would a knowledge(geography) check give objective locations?
I could read your post, but all I see is "I want it to work this way despite demonstrable evidence to the contrary due to a single vague sentence. And I will hand-wave another sentence into oblivion while demanding 'guidance' that is common sense."
You sound like those guys who think you can sneak attack with ranged weapons.
You've come to a conclusion despite statements from the designers, text that states the exact same thing in the spells themselves, as well as official textual clarifications in books recently published.
So, yeah, not going to go further. House rule it all you like, but you aren't playing RAW any more than the Ranged Sneak-Attack by Flank are playing RAW.
My answer is not even closed to that ranged flanking nonsense, and I have not seen any dev comments, just like I have not seen any post from you that support your conclusion.
Can someone point me to this dev clarification that I can't seem to find?
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Again, no one is saying that you can't use these combination of spells, what is being said is that in order to use teleport, you need to "have a clear idea of the destination". Viewing me on a television does not provide that information.
And I cannot understand why you say a television/scrying image does not provide a clear idea of the destination.
Scry does not tell you how to walk to the destination.
It creates a magical condition that allows you to teleport there in a very specific set of circumstances.
1: Only the person who scryed can cast the risky teleport. They cannot describe the location to anyone, because they do not know.
2: If the target is on another planet, vehicle, or suchlike the teleport must happen immediately, such as the next round.
3: The GM can make it not work because the location statement gives them a convenient excuse. There are ways for an NPC to protect themselves from both scrying and teleporting. The GM can substitute a different, but identical location within teleport range. They should roll dice, including only already detailed locations, and should also pull this on NPCs and monsters.
4: I currently do not own Ultimate Intrigue. Until I do, which may be soon, I cannot take anybody's word on it. Does that book contain the statement,"These rules are all optional"? Does it at all supersede the Core Rulebook?
Again, no one is saying that you can't use these combination of spells, what is being said is that in order to use teleport, you need to "have a clear idea of the destination". Viewing me on a television does not provide that information.And I cannot understand why you say a television/scrying image does not provide a clear idea of the destination.
I think he believes a "clear idea" means you have to know where the location is, but nothing in the rules supports that.
4: I currently do not own Ultimate Intrigue. Until I do, which may be soon, I cannot take anybody's word on it. Does that book contain the statement,"These rules are all optional"? Does it at all supersede the Core Rulebook?
The book starts off by saying "Heres some advice on how to run some spells" then gets nit and gritty about how the spells are supposed to work.
On teleport it supplements "Physically located" to it's requirements instead of saying "located".
On Scrying it's addendum is that the target must move for it to provide a clear idea of the layout. It also straight forwardly says that Scrying does not directly indicate the location. It says that potential scryers must use contextual clues to figure that out. I guess the text means "physical location."
So the book implies that the teleporter must know where the location is physically in the world and that Scrying does not grant an idea of the layout if the target does not move and that one must use contextual clues to figure out where the location is through scrying or know where the target is physically already.
4: I currently do not own Ultimate Intrigue. Until I do, which may be soon, I cannot take anybody's word on it. Does that book contain the statement,"These rules are all optional"? Does it at all supersede the Core Rulebook?The book starts off by saying "Heres some advice on how to run some spells" then gets nit and gritty about how the spells are supposed to work.
On teleport it supplements "Physically located" to it's requirements instead of saying "located".
On Scrying it's addendum is that the target must move for it to provide a clear idea of the layout. It also straight forwardly says that Scrying does not directly indicate the location. It says that potential scryers must use contextual clues to figure that out. I guess the text means "physical location."
So the book implies that the teleporter must know where the location is physically in the world and that Scrying does not grant an idea of the layout if the target does not move and that one must use contextual clues to figure out where the location is through scrying or know where the target is physically already.
Thanks. I don't mind having to know where the place is. A knowledge geography can get that information.
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Its 4:00 Am where I am now. Perhaps I shouldn't launch into a discussion on scry and fry. A couple of weeks ago while playing Wardens of the Reborn forge in "campaign mode' ( PFS term) my character, and arcanist, was using the spell Arcane Eye..to scout out a location. One of my friends suggested that maybe we could teleport to where the eye was, and thus bypass the defenses of the location we were scouting with my arcanist's arcane eye spell.
I asked the GM and he said sure he had no problem with it. He told me how many minutes I would need to study the area with my arcane eye, then after making a d100 roll my arcanist teleported the party there. We now have the benefit of surprise.
Our GM is fine with these "tactics" our characters have access to 6th level spells, so if we choose our spells wisely, we can do all sorts of unexpected things.
One fun synergy we have, is that the party divine healer caster has a freedom of movement effect attached to her character's channel positive energy. This dove tail's nicely with my character's fondness of Evard's Black Tentacles spell.
We are having fun. The GM is having fun.
I wonder, oh well, The train of thought left my station. I forgot the point i was going to try and make......its 4:00 am...if it's important I can come back and type it out in the morning.
You sound like those guys who think you can sneak attack with ranged weapons.
...You CAN sneak attack with a ranged weapon. You can't flank with one without a third party feat, but you can totally sneak attack with one. Lets meet up at KoFusion to talk it out. You can teleport there, because I'm giving you a specific building in Champaign, IL.
