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With Magus you're stuck in singleton style, and focus almost all of your efforts on making shocking grasp awesome, the sad truth is that most magus builds are traps. EK on the other hand can fight in just about any style, and cast any kind of spells you want. Guns, bows, two handed weapons with power attack, reach weapons, hell and that's just the tame stuff. A properly built EK will end with 9th level spells and a +16 BAB.
EK also has the advantage of being able to combine really weird stuff into weirdly awesome combinations, want to be a triple threat hedge witch/fighter/EK who can spontaneously cast healing spells, want a shield with 0% arcane spell failure, want to add your guns enhancement modifier to your opponents save dcs? The Magus's spell list doesn't even have as many spells as the transmutation school.
As soon as you get into EK (lv 3 or 7) Magus starts falling behind fast, by the end levels when the EK is turning into a giant or a dragon, rocking a 30 something strength with power attack raining maximized empowered fireballs, the Magus is still stuck having to run into point blank range hoping he can crit with his shocking grasp spell strike. Magus is a terrible class for those who want to gish but have 0 patience. Hell I think the arcane duelist Bard archetype does a better job at being a gish in a can than Magus.
It is true that the EK will be able to do those things. But his Great Balls of Fire will be later and smaller than the wizards. He cannot attack with powerattack and rain fireballs down maximised or not. he can throw one quickend fireball and with ,magic linage(fireball) he can quicken and maximise one pr round, not really usefull. Str 30somthing is nothing special, everybody that want to can get that in late game.
The magus can also take on exotic forms, cast fireballs.I am not saying tha the EK sucks but it is stlly to undersell the magus and oversell the EK to make a point. The magus have plenty options beside shocking grasp and the EK does have action economy issues.
I'll just note again that I don't agree that FAQ answer leads necessarily to "Yes, you can use a SLA to qualify for EK.*Looks at you quizzically*
I'm not sure how you can disagree. It even specifically says that you can gain access to PrCs early as races with SLAs.
The addendum says that, and it claims it logically follows from the other ruling. But I don't think it does. A SLA grants a caster level, and it may grant the ability to cast XYZ spell, but, IMO, that is not the same thing as "the ability to cast 3rd level spells." I don't think a single SLA of that level is the same thing as a general casting ability, which is what I think that line means. And under 3.5, the official word agreed with me.
Even under Pathfinder, this is only provisionally true, the FAQ even says it may be revisited later.
I'm just drawing the line in a different place. If I were in charge of the FAQ, and I were looking at the earlier ruling, I would nonetheless have stated that "the ability to cast 3rd level spells" is something different than having a single SLA, it refers to the spellcasting ability of a class and not any individual effect.
As for the aasimar and tiefling MWP thing... we have the official word, which is "As written in the ARG." I don't agree with the devs on the RAW, and they won't errata it to agree with themselves, but that's just how it is sometimes. :) So, the ARG is considered canonical on the matter, and the Bestiary is considered ... well, who cares, the ARG has been given the last word. The Bestiary may or may not conflict on the RAW, but it's a moot point now.
Remember that the Magus can be very good for what it does. It can build to be an extremely good character. It focuses on lower level spells and should likely focus on rings of Wizardry and miss-chance to avoid taking damage.
The EK has the strength of higher level spells.
The Magus has the strength of being able to spam lower level spells while being able to build himself into doing as much damage as possible.
One example is this:
The magus tends to focus on spells that do not offer saves so he can focus on maximizing his martial attributes. The Magus class is built to do martial damage and magical damage in the same round if he can full attack. This means he can do a ton of damage, but also, at the same time he needs to focus on specialized power spells that are hard to resist. The magus is a better damage dealer than the EK, but only because he can do martial AND magical in the same round.
When it comes to magical gear spell storing weapons and spell storing armor are what makes him powerful. Few enemies who are immune to electricity damage will survive eating three shocking grasps from the magus's full attack and then a fourth shocking grasp from the Magus's armor if he gets hit.
Bottom line is that Magi are DANGEROUS, but they have a tendency to do as much damage as possible.
If the DM allows it a magus could have four spell storing weapons, five if he is a dwarf.
Spell Storing Cestus, spell storing Longsword, two Spell Storing Blade Boots, and if Dwarf Spell Storing Boulder helmet. He cannot attack with all of them at the same time, but he could potentially use the longsword and one blade boot while casting a spell, then next round use the cestus and the other blade boot while casting another spell.
By level 10 that could be 30d6 + weapon damage for two rounds, and then 10d6 per round after that.
So potentially 180(average, or 360 max) electricity damage at level 10 in 2 rounds. That is enough damage to flat-out kill a level 20 wizard.
The EK tends to focus on either spells or martial abilities for maximum power. Going 1/2 - 1/2 can make an absurdly powerful character, but at the same time it can also make the EK a paper-thin character. Martial focused EK (unless it is a Dragon Disciple) tend to not do as much damage as the Magus. The Magic Focused EK also doesn't do as much damage as the Magus. The Strength of the Caster EK is the Save or Suck spells, or just being able to prevent opponents from doing anything.
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... Few enemies who are immune to electricity damage will survive eating three shocking grasps from the magus's full attack and then a fourth shocking grasp from the Magus's armor if he gets hit...
I think you you miss a not in this part.
And later down i think you oversell the pover of spell storing weapons to the Magus. Every body can use spell storing equipment. I think the Strength of the Magus is the action economic savers that allow him to do both magic, self buff and weapon damage in the same turn.
It is true that the EK will be able to do those things. But his Great Balls of Fire will be later and smaller than the wizards. He cannot attack with powerattack and rain fireballs down maximised or not. he can throw one quickend fireball and with ,magic linage(fireball) he can quicken and maximise one pr round, not really usefull. Str 30somthing is nothing special, everybody that want to can get that in late game.
The magus can also take on exotic forms, cast fireballs.
I am not saying tha the EK sucks but it is stlly to undersell the magus and oversell the EK to make a point. The magus have plenty options beside shocking grasp and the EK does have...With a single trait you loose no caster levels, so your fireballs are just the same size as a wizard of the same level, and you'll get them before the magus even with loosing two levels of spell progress. Also you mention the the EK can't do both at the same time, but that's not really a flaw compared to the Magus who is required to do both at the same time. If you don't want to get into melee because your afraid of a monsters full attack the EK can hang back and cast, got an enemy with a wicked SR, polymorph your self into something heinous and go mix it up.
What does the Magus do in those situations, same thing he does every time, runs in to use spell combat, eats the full attack, or deals with the SR. Even when they are preforming at their best, Magus is a melee combatant who can't dual wield or power attack effectively, and is a caster who is far behind in terms of spell progression. Magus is demonstrably worse than EK in every way but one, the first few levels. If you have any patience at all and want to gish, EK is still the way to do it.
My experience dosent agree with you. Yes the EK can do it all but if you built him for that he will not really impress the ladies. and if he is to get fireball before the magus he not be anything in the figthing department until after level 10. But if you play the magus, a class with many different potential solutions, like you tell us it have to be played then i undestand the basis of your argument.
I would like to see the demonstraion you offer, put up somthing like a build and tell me how it out do the magus in simulatet encounters. Pehaps i will learn somthing. Lets say level 3 level 8 level 14 and level 20 if that is ok?Edit: if possible avoid things that need GM approval, that way we can keep the ouer eyes on the ball.
Umm... The Eldritch Knight will be ahead of Magus in BAB starting at level 5, when the Trapper Freebooter 1/Scyer Wizard 1/ EK 3 will have 4 BAB while the Magus will still have only +3. The magus will never catch up if the Eldritch Knight finishes with 8 level of Hellknight Signifier (Enforcer). I would post a build but my magic item guide is calling and the math is pretty straight forward.
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I have to call shenanigans. The Gish doesn't use a bow.
Maybe not, but it's a pretty good way to build an EK as many of the archery feats will also apply to ray casting, which is something that the EK excels and that the Magus really doesn't.
Umm... The Eldritch Knight will be ahead of Magus in BAB starting at level 5, when the Trapper Freebooter 1/Scyer Wizard 1/ EK 3 will have 4 BAB while the Magus will still have only +3. The magus will never catch up if the Eldritch Knight finishes with 8 level of Hellknight Signifier (Enforcer). I would post a build but my magic item guide is calling and the math is pretty straight forward.
But this guy will not have fireball before level 7.
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The trick is if you use a SLA to get into Magus you loose the two levels of spell progression right off of the bat, so you get fireball at 7th level, same as the Magus. So the challenge is to build an EK the hard way (No SLA to get into the class), that is a competent fighter in addition to being a caster. This will have to be a straight caster with a splash of martial, since without a SLA you won't get into EK until 7th. So a sixth level character mixing martial and magical theme's that is more effective than a magus. Challenge accepted:
I'll do this two ways, the easy way and the amusing way.
Easy Way
Elven Wizard (Transmuter) 5/Fighter 1Traits:
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 13
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 8Lv 1 Wizard (1)
Feat Point Blank Shot
Lv 2 Fighter (1)
Feat Precise shot
Lv 3 Wizard (2)
Feat Deadly Aim
Lv 4 Wizard (3)
+1 Con
Lv 5 Wizard (4)
Lv 6 Wizard (5)
Rapid shotPick up a +1 agile long bow, and with out even breaking a sweat your a better martial character than a magus, while being a spell level ahead. Without a buff round you have a 20 dex and a +3 bab (one point behind the magus), for a +8 to hit before magic and PBS so call it +10 or two for +8. With a buff round probably a rod quickened gravity bow and a normal flame arrow.
Getting late so I'll post the amusing option tomorrow, but a few hints: This caster has a x3 crit modifier on their spells, can enhance there weapons in a similar way to a magus, and uses a very unusual choice of class for the martial weapon proficiencies requirement.
Agile is only melee weapons. This guy is gonna be a fine wizard until level 5 an then he will gimp him self by trying to be an archer. If your GM allow the dex to damage on ranged weapons then he may be sort of ok but the 3 he will be behind on bab and the lag of weapon training is gonna make his shoting feel like wasted actions more often than not.
I think.
Same as the magus. I don't see your point.
the claim was about getting fireball before the magus.
If you use the SLA trick to get into EK from level 3 you wont get fireball before the magus. And if you dont then your bab will first catch up at level 9.
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An EK may be a better fighter than a Magus. An EK may be a better caster than a Magus. But what an EK can never do that a Magus can is be a fighter and a caster at the same time. Spell Combat is a level of action economy that can only be matched by using quickened spells which are a very limited resource before spell perfection.
maybe i missed something, but it seems like maybe this nereid's grace post was supposed to be on another thread?
regarding EK vs. magus...
the 'winner' really does depend on a number of factors-
what level are you? at low to mid levels both have similar BAB and spell access but the magus' action economy (and armor use) give it an advantage; at higher levels the EK's higher level spells (and earlier access) can be a pretty significant advantage
what are your typical encounters like? EKs have a BAB advantage to begin with and the magus' bread-and-butter (spell combat) incurs another -2, so if you tend to fight small numbers of enemies who's CR is above APL accuracy may be a real concern for the magus; if, on the other hand, you tend to fight larger groups of enemies who's CRs are below APL accuracy will matter less and the magus' action economy will be better suited to killing more/faster.
what role do you want to fill? most of all the discussion in this thread (including from me) has focused on who's better in combat (which seems to be a bit of a draw, generally speaking)... but the EK has one big advantage we haven't addressed- the ability to do more than combat. with access to the entire wiz/sorc spell list (and higher level spells) the EK is able to contribute out of combat in ways that the magus can't. i mean, a magus could pick 1-2 utility spells with spell blending but it requires a lot more investment and still yields a lot less flexibility.
conclusion: (IMO) in the level range that most people play most of their games the magus has an edge in combat over even the early entry EK; however, that in no way renders EK "null and void" since from very early on they have options that simply aren't available to magi (an early entry EK with a handful of buffs can function mostly like a fighter in combat but as a utility wizard out of combat).
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The biggest problem I have with Magus is that shocking grasp is so obviously the best choice for spellstriking, pretty much every Magus uses it exclusively. The only possible competition is from frostbite and frigid touch for the debuffs. It turns out that there just aren't that many low-level touch spells. Paizo could really stand to write some new ones and open up some more unusual Magus builds.
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The biggest problem I have with Magus is that shocking grasp is so obviously the best choice for spellstriking, pretty much every Magus uses it exclusively. The only possible competition is from frostbite and frigid touch for the debuffs. It turns out that there just aren't that many low-level touch spells. Paizo could really stand to write some new ones and open up some more unusual Magus builds.
A Quick fix for that problem is to play a magus with out shocking grasp. You May be surprised of the possibillities. You can have a versatilie melee dude with several options in and out of combat, if you dare. And one that dont need to spend the first 2 rounds buffing him self and looking at the party ripping the bad guys to pieces.
Check out the subtype section. Native outsiders explicitly do not get martial weapon proficiency.
Where does it say that? The PRD certainly doesn't have it.
Of course, the weapon and armor proficiencies should have been moved from the traits to the features anyway in order to prevent outsiders without racial hit dice from getting them.
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Now let's examine this bit of blurb:"If you are not wearing armor (or your armor is not visible, such as when using glamered armor), you gain a deflection bonus to your Armor Class and CMD equal to your Charisma bonus."
Okay.
So let me get this straight:
1) You get no bonuses against undead or anything immune to mind affecting stuff.
2) You get no bonuses against something that has true seeing.
3) What about something with blind sight? Or Tremorsense? Do you get bonuses against them?
4) You get bonuses in the dark, or in a fog cloud, or when invisible somehow to an opponent.
5) Your armor isn't glamered. But someone casts a spell on you to alter your appearance, now you look like you don't have armor.
1) Nope. It Charm and Mind affecting but the target is YOU. It's modifying you, not them. You still get the deflection bonus to AC.
2) Again the target is YOU. If you can see the armor, it doesn't apply. If you can't then it does.
3) Yes
4) No, you still know the armor is there.
5) Yes
I agree, its a horribly written spell. But it's not as broken as it seems.
maybe i missed something, but it seems like maybe this nereid's grace post was supposed to be on another thread?
No, there is some new spell out there, that can be broken if you combine it with this, that and the other. Seeing it in build after build, including some on this thread.
Another gloves of dueling type thing if you have high charisma. And much cheaper.
It was mentioned in a build in the start of the thread. And yes it seems like a silly spell but it is only for Undines so it may be a minor thing. And it is only 1 round pr level so unless the GM is incompetent, and allow costum crafting without supervision, it is not gonna be a problem i think.
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Magus is actually doing that more. He is doing the damage you listed for Spell Strike, and then thanks to spell combat he is doing another 1d6 (schimitar) + 1d6 (flaming) + 4 (dex from dervish dance) + 2 (enhancement) on his second hit. Even when he is out of shocking grasp he can still do that twice per round by casting a cantrip with spell combat. +9/+9 for 2d6+6 is better than +8/+8 for 3d6, although the archer has the benefit of range.
Check out the subtype section. Native outsiders explicitly do not get martial weapon proficiency.
Some creatures have one or more subtypes. Subtypes add additional abilities and qualities to a creature.
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
So the subtype normally adds additional features to the creature type. They do not replace or remove traits, except in this case it modifies the resurection/need to eat and sleep, where those traits are explicitly mentioned. It does not modify any other part. So a native outsider has all the outsider traits, plus those listed under native. Native outsider does not replace everything listed under outsider, it adds to it.
Agile is only melee weapons. This guy is gonna be a fine wizard until level 5 an then he will gimp him self by trying to be an archer. If your GM allow the dex to damage on ranged weapons then he may be sort of ok but the 3 he will be behind on bab and the lag of weapon training is gonna make his shoting feel like wasted actions more often than not.
I think.My bad about agile, but even with just gravity bow and a weapon enchant it's still 3d6 twice a round, better than most second level spells, at probably a better to hit than the magus will have (+8/+8) without dipping into his arcane pool. Also no requirement to get into melee is a big plus, replace deadly aim with focused shot (you'll probably have both at level 7) and your damage is 2d6 (gravity long bow base) + 1d6 fire (from flaming enchant) + 3 (int Modifier) + 1 (enhancement) + 1 (PBS) or an average of 16 per hit. The nascent EK can do this for literally dozens of rounds per day, while still having other spells he can cast, such as haste which adds another attack, and amps his parties damage up.
Magus at that point is doing 1d6 (schimitar) + 1d6 (flaming) + 4 (dex from dervish dance) + 2 (enhancement) + 8d6 (assuming he super focuses on shocking grasp) or 40 points a round in a single attack at a -2 to hit from spell combat, call it a +9 to hit. That isn't a day and night difference, and the magus also invested 5 feats (weapon finesse, Dervish dance, spell focus Evocation, spell specialty evocation (shocking grasp), Metamagic: Intense spells), and a trait to get their. He can do this 5ish times a day, and then he's spent, less if he memorized anything but intense shocking grasps. If you assume three encounters per day, the magus gets to be cool about two rounds in every fight, But for those two rounds you are studly. The rest of the time the rogue is laughing at how much your damage sucks.
Focused shot is a standart action, so only one shot pr round. the magus can take the same feats and ad pool stuff to his Bow if he wants to. But lets keep him a melee dude atm. I dont see why he need to be a dervish wimp getting 16 str, dex and con 14 and int 16 is no problem with 20 point buy and versatile human.
Assuming he is afraid he will run out of pool points he can take extra pool at level 1. weapon focus at level 3 and a familiar, at 5 he will take combat casting and power attack. In melee with pool stuff and that is +8/+8 1d6+9 (assuming a +2 weapon like you had) or without spell combat +10 1d6+11 and this is for more encounters than a avarage work day. and then he can cast spells like /frost bite/shocking grasp/chill touch if he feels like it.You had a meta magic rod that cost at least 35000 gp in your leve 5 build. i think most characters will seem powerfull with that kind of magic so i will just ad a few pearls of power to this guy. If he also have a mithril chain shirt hi is well above mainly because of the 8300 for a +2 weapon. Shave away the one + on the weapon to get back with in WBL and give him a (str+3) migthy longbow +1 and he will shoot for +8 and 1d8+6 (with pool) not a bad back up plan.
Scimitar +1(2315), mithral shirt +1(2200), migthy(str 16) long bow +1 (2700), 2xpearl of power level 1(2000), and a bit for stuff i have forgotten and a masterwork banjo(1285)
Edit: just realised that you did a level 6 guy and i did a level 5 one. add 1 or 2 to some of the numbers and it will work i need to go to sleep. the extra 4500 gp goes to a handy heaversack, a cloac of protection +1, a pearl of power more and a nobel's outfit to go with the banjo.
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The biggest problem I have with Magus is that shocking grasp is so obviously the best choice for spellstriking, pretty much every Magus uses it exclusively. The only possible competition is from frostbite and frigid touch for the debuffs. It turns out that there just aren't that many low-level touch spells. Paizo could really stand to write some new ones and open up some more unusual Magus builds.A Quick fix for that problem is to play a magus with out shocking grasp. You May be surprised of the possibillities. You can have a versatilie melee dude with several options in and out of combat, if you dare. And one that dont need to spend the first 2 rounds buffing him self and looking at the party ripping the bad guys to pieces.
I certainly wish more people would do this, and I would absolutely do it if I were building a Magus for myself. My complaint is that shocking grasp is the best option for straight damage output, all the way though several spell levels, so much so that it's basically considered the "default" Magus build. I'd prefer to see more variety for spell striking.
My magus looks a lot like the one i talk about a bit up thread. He is fun and feels powerfull and versatile next to barbarian, gunslinger and cleric. And he have yet to use shocking grasp.
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To answer the OP's original question instead of indulging yet another debate about the shmagus: clearly "no", eldritch knights are not "null and void". They fill different requirements entirely.
Me, I'm keen on the idea of delivering curses in melee with full BAB - 1 without getting torn to shreds in the process. Too bad most of the GMs I've met won't abide by the FAQ in this regard. On the other hand, they still allow Crane Wing to actually do something.
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Check out the subtype section. Native outsiders explicitly do not get martial weapon proficiency.Where does it say that? The PRD certainly doesn't have it.
Of course, the weapon and armor proficiencies should have been moved from the traits to the features anyway in order to prevent outsiders without racial hit dice from getting them.
I can't find it using online sources either. It was in one of the hard covers if it existed at all. I will take a look when I get home.
So the subtype normally adds additional features to the creature type. They do not replace or remove traits, except in this case it modifies the resurection/need to eat and sleep, where those traits are explicitly mentioned. It does not modify any other part. So a native outsider has all the outsider traits, plus those listed under native. Native outsider does not replace everything listed under outsider, it adds to it.
Greetings!
The real issue here is whether the Bestiary entry applies to player characters, or are just for "monsters".
For player characters, the Devs have pointed to the Advanced Race Guide as the de facto source players should be utilizing, not the Bestiary.
A link to the prd: Advanced Race Guide Race Builder Creature Type
Only the traits given in the linked section apply to PCs.
I would point out that I agree with those (both here and in other threads) that a simple errata to the Bestiary entries would have clarified this issue.
As for the OP's question, I believe that while the Magus is probably superior overall (since Pathfinder is biased toward single-classed characters), the EK is still useful, especially with early entry.
If you want a spontaneous "figher mage", then EK is the way to go. If you want to be an archer, combining EK with Arcane Archer is the way to go.
A build that I'm probably going to play (after my current campaign ends) is:
Aasimar Sohei Monk 1/Empyreal Wildblooded Sorcerer 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 8
At 20th level, he'd have a BAB +18 (+19 when flurrying w/ monk weapons).
At low levels, this build is inferior to the Magus, but at mid-levels catches up and then eventually surpasses them in both BAB and Spell casting.
The Magus will always have an edge with his awesome class features (including the ability to cast spells while wearing armor), but is also locked into one schtick.
Edit: You need the trait Magical Knack (Sorcerer) to make this shine, as your CL will equal your character level until you start into Arcane Archer. At 20th, your CL will be 18th, but you'll have spells as a 16th level sorcerer (8th level spells).
The second difference is that all of these race types are 0-Hit Dice creatures, which means that their Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies are based on the class levels each member of a race takes.
Ok, THAT makes more sense. Thank you Weren!
Glad I could help!
If the Devs would only put that line in at the beginning of the Creature Type section of the Bestiaries, it wouldn't be confusing.
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if someone emailed the folks at d20PFSRD.com with a link to the source material (wherever the devs actually said that PCs use the ARG rules instead of the actual type) i bet they would put one of those editorial bubbles on their website which i know would clarify this for a lot of people...
Best I can do was the quote I found earlier from James Jacobs.
I'll link it again HERE if that helps.
We absolutely would, assuming that's correct.. I don't have time to confirm so if anyone "official" were to say it it'd be in like Flynn!
Well, it already is on your site, here (first paragraph, which is taken straight from the Advanced Race Guide): Link
However, I would suggest an editorial bubble/sidebar in the races section to make it more obvious. :)
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Sorry about seeming dense. The fact of the matter is I didn't read this entire thread to fully know what the subject was even about. I think I get it now and have updated both of the pages
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types (at top)
and
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races (in the lower part of the page)
with the suggested verbiage!
If you (or anyone) have suggestions where else that info would be helpful please let me know! You can either PM me here, or email me directly (jreyst@gmail.com)
Back to the primary topic (Magus vs. EK):
I agree with TheSideKick.
In addition, as has been stated before, spell selection is an important difference, as the Magus doesn't gain access to the whole Sor/Wiz list.
I would again put forth that there isn't a spontaneous magus type. You can build an EK using Sorcerer, and get a totally different feel!
So, overall, a Magus is going to be more dangerous in his area of expertise (spellstrike and spell combat in melee), but (as the player of a Magus in my Skull and Shackles campaign has learned) is really short on utility spells.
An EK can be that utility caster as well as being good in combat (melee or ranged--or even both if you mix it up with Arcane Archer).
There are benefits and hindrances to both options. Magus is the easier path, but if you're willing to put the effort in the EK can be just as fun to play!