Disenchanter

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How does your DM interpret the use of multiple conductive weapons?

Do you plan on taking the full 10 levels of the prc, or do you plan on only dipping?


slitherrr wrote:
...Fort/Ref/Will at +17/+14/+15. +2 vs spells...

I'm guessing your DM allowed the undead antipaladin to double dip on CHA for fort saves?


So nobody has any information on the rules around attacking an empty square? That would be the final piece we need to support the situation presented by Fist2Jaw under RAW.


You might want to look into the spell contingent action. That would allow you to fire the arrow and speak the command word at the same time (also you could use a regular anchor instead of a feather token thanks to shrink item).

The way turns/rounds work, you would not have to worry about timing. The only things that really interrupt the flow of combat on your turn are readied actions, attacks of opportunity, and immediate actions. Otherwise, if it is your turn, nobody else should be moving. Really your only concern should be if the enemy readies an action to move out of the way of falling objects.

Targeting the individual square above them is where I'm coming up short. There are rules for splash weapons targeting squares here, but I cannot find anything for normal arrow attacks.

The best I can find is the Imbue Arrow ability of the arcane archer, but it doesn't fully address attacking vacant squares.

Hopefully somebody else has more information on attacking an empty square?


Shasf wrote:

While interesting, let's get you a higher CL using ratfolk because of their swarming ability...

SPACEBALL12345 wrote:
Step 9.5: Depending on how your cohorts are arranged, your caster level will be through the roof. Without using the z axis (You could expand this to a whole sphere of witches), if every space in a 1 mile radius is occupied by an aiding witch, your caster level should be 2,164,801. You can double this by using ratfolk witches (2 per square) or using reduce person.

I'm aware of both using ratfolk and reduce person, I just didn't feel it was necessary to add that much. Realistically, I don't think there is anything I could do with 4 million caster levels that I couldn't do with 2 million for the sake of this challenge. If we started using flight with reduce person ratfolk and went with a sphere configuration...I've no idea where that would put us. Somebody with stronger math skills can figure that out for us.

There are other things you can do with this, like pooling all your cohorts money to create a simulacrum. You could also abuse the duration increase for summon monster. If you can get the scar/coven hex to work on something that isn't a witch, it opens up a few more spells.

It more of just shows how much of a force multiplier leadership can be. The main reason I submitted it was because I didn't see any other builds below level 20.


I have a submission building on the Legion setup Shasf provided. It utilizes a different approach to beastmass, and comes online at level 17.

Step by step instructions:

Step 1: Start as a 17th level witch

Step 2: Pick up the coven witch hex.

Step 3: Take the following feats: leadership, seeking spell, reach spell, elemental spell(electricity)

Step 4: Use leadership to recruit a witch 5/noble scion10 (you will need cha bonus of 4 or higher).

Step 4.5: The cohort must have the following:

Hex: coven and scar witch hex abilities.
Feats: Improved Initiative, Noble Scion of war (yo dawg)
Traits: Reactionary
Attributes: CHA score of at least 26 (18 base, 2 race, 2 level, +4 headband)

Step 5: Begin the infinite legion chain: have each witch/noble scion recruit another witch/noble scion with the same two witch hex abilities.

Step 6: Have all of your cohorts place their scar hex on you.

Step 7: Make sure you can cast a seeking reach elemental (reach +3 to make the range ‘long’) Frostbite spell 7 times. Spell perfection, pearl of power, whatever lets you do this once per encounter.

Step 8: Have a contingency to teleport home to the middle of all of your cohorts when the encounter starts. Optionally, start the encounter from your house.

Step 9: Every cohort uses their coven hex via the scar hex to use the ‘aid another’ action to increase your caster level by 1. Note that a witch5/noble scion10 will have a BaB of 9, so have a few of the witches use a scroll of bless (not using our wealth, but with theirs) to ensure success.

Step 9.5: Depending on how your cohorts are arranged, your caster level will be through the roof. Without using the z axis (You could expand this to a whole sphere of witches), if every space in a 1 mile radius is occupied by an aiding witch, your caster level should be 2,164,801. You can double this by using ratfolk witches (2 per square) or using reduce person.

Step 10: Cast your first Seeking Reach(long, +3) frostbite. With the aided caster level, the spell will have a range of 86,592,040 and deal 1d6+2,164,801. To put this into perspective: a range of 16,400 miles is about twice the diameter of earth.

Step 11: Repeat step 10 as desired.

Individual Encounters:

Shoggoth: I’m assuming the challenger starts in the actual encounter area, so we will use a contingency spell with teleport to return home as a free action. From here, we go through the standard aid/Seeking Reach (long) frostbite combo. We don’t have to worry about spell resistance with our caster level, but we need to use one slot higher for elemental spell (electricity). We can get to the body and finish it later, it isn’t getting up anytime soon. (4th lvl spell in example build)

Balor: This is where things can get messy. The original post does not say what time elapses between individual encounters, it only lists an order and surprise round status. Since the Balor acts on the surprise round, it could teleport to our home right after we kill the Shoggoth and then kill a follower if it wins initiative, breaking the chain. Since all single d20s result in 10s, we just need to have a higher initiative modifier than 11. Thankfully, we have plenty of room in the build, so we can have improved initiative (+4), reactionary (+2), noble scion feat for cha to initiative, as well as magic items/buff spells. See the sample build for an example of how to do this. With step 4.5, all of our followers already have at least a +14 initiative, so they should be acting before the Balor as well, allowing us to drop him with a Reach Frostbite. (If you took spell perfection, congratulations, you just neutralized a Balor with a level 1 spell). (1st level spell if he comes to us, otherwise 3rd level in example build)

Pit Fiend: We are still at home, so with no surprise round we only need to beat his initiative of 13. Another use of Seeking Reach (long) frostbite puts him under. (3rd level spell in example build)

Tarn Linnorm: He gets a surprise round, but we don’t really care. We aren’t even in there. Seeking Reach (long) frostbite. (3rd level spell in example build)

Ancient Gold Dragon: The winner of perception gets a surprise round. He has greater teleport, so we don’t want to let him see us first. I’m honestly not sure how to rule this, but I’m going to assume since he has no foreknowledge of our abilities, he’s not going to know where to go, even if he does win initiative. If we are even rolling it. Seeking Reach (long) frostbite ends the fight either way. (3rd level spell in example build)

Solar Angel: We get a surprise round. Seeking Reach (long) elemental (electricity) frostbite. Shockbite? (4th level spell in example build)

The Tarrasque: We get a surprise round again. Seeking Reach (long) frostbite. (3rd level spell in example build)

Cleanup: We would have to go back and finish off the unconscious and helpless opponents. We could do this a number of ways- use whatever method you prefer. The only concern is Big T, which everybody seems keen to have a weekly "beat up big T" session for.

Example Character Sheets (hosted on myth-weavers):

example leader

example cohort

Note: with this setup, we could have the cohorts closest to us use aid another to grant the bonus to hit instead of caster level, so we could have an easier time hitting touch ac. I have intentionally left much of the sheet blank and not spent part of the gold on these sheets to show only what is required.

The end result is a low risk approach to the beastmass, while still providing lots of room for options in the build, as many feats and most of the money aren't needed.

I also have to give credit to the people in the thread that originally discovered the coven/scar witch hex combo. I pulled most of my inspiration from that. Can't find a link to it now though.

Let me know if there is anything rules related that I missed.


It looks like the legion build still works without the use of templates and investing. It can still overwhelm the encounters with raw numbers.


Can we combine legion with the coven and scar witch hex abilities for a near infinite caster level?


It is a crazy build, but it doesn't violate anything RAW that I'm aware of.


This needs work.

The grammar and typos need to be cleaned up.

Stat array: I think it is a waste to invest in int, though an argument could be made if picking aasimar. A human paladin will still gain 2 skillpoints per level, which will be enough to get the 1 ranks you want while still being close to the max on others, without factoring in favored class bonuses.

Mercy choices: Sickened is much worse than fatigue for a martial character, and there are other options for ignoring fatigue built into your class selection (oracle lame curse if you just have to have immunity) as well as cheap alchemical options like allnight. Even without these options, the only reason to be worried about fatigue for a rage dip is if you rage cycle certain rage powers, which you don't have with straight bloodrager.

Paladin Spells: You don't seem to have a section on this.

Mystery/Revelation: If you can get away with 2xcha to reflex saves go for it, otherwise better off going Nature instead of Lore.

Oracle Spells: Infernal healing is consistently more healing than cure light wounds, and allowed for paladin use under PFS rules (not an alignment infraction for using an evil spell).

Gunslinger dip: Attacking vs touch ac is nice, but keep in mind you won't have the grit pool of a full gunslinger to increase the range you can target touch ac at. Also guns are a large investment of wealth, as well as potentially feats (you would at least want rapid reload). Instead you could just use a composite longbow to hit a creature in the air on the off chance you don't have flight. This gets you your str bonus to damage and all your iterative attacks, without investing heavily in resources. When you factor in missfires, as well as the fact you are adding a 4th lvl of dipping to delay your paladin progression, I don't think it would be a good choice.

Traits: You can make up the difference for not having escape artist as a class skill with things like alchemical grease, as well as a casting of grease from either a friendly caster (longer duration, and they can probably spare a 1st lvl spell) or a wand. Extra bonus: these stack with each other and are fairly cheap. With that out of the way, you can use magical knack to help your caster level with the dips.

Feats: I'm going to come out strong on this: You really overestimate the value of the cleave line of feats, as well as vital strike. The investment of 4 feats to get Improved Cleaving Finish is not worth it. There are too many other options that you can use in more situations. Vital strike requires the full chain to stay relevant at higher levels, and even then most of what you would want to do with it involves (or involved, thanks new faq) stacking size increases.

Instead, look into options like unsanctioned knowledge for more spell options (requires 13 int, one of the few reasons to keep int as a paladin). You also have options like furious focus . You could even go with familiar bond since you already seem invested in iron will, which could eventually open up improved familiars with wand access.

Starting Gear: You have no ranged option at all. Again, I'd pick infernal healing over cure light wounds.

Suggested Items: You have temporary hp from rage and swift action healing. You can get by with skimping on armor to increase your cloak of resistance. Also, consider making your weapon a +3 instead of a +2 keen so you can bypass DR for things you can't smite for campaigns where the DM is playing against your class. You can still use your divine bond to get keen if you aren't getting improved critical. Your setup also has no way to gain flight on its own, something I think you really need to invest in at level 12, preferably before then. There are a lot of items you could consider here other than ac boosting items.

Other alternatives/notes: If you are only dipping bloodrager for uncanny dodge, you could consider ulfen guard and save yourself a levels worth of dipping. Keep in mind your movement bonuses won't stack with flight.

Tldr, 5/10 can't recommend to friends without improvements.


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So as somebody that has been looking into pathfinder society play for a long time (and I mean a LONG time, my schedule never lines up, but its finally starting to open up), let me ask this:

What incentive do I have, when after 30-40 hours of game time, plus any books I purchase, that my character plan could be invalidated at any time without any recompense, warning, or alternative?

I'm not impressed at all with how venture captains have handled this situation. Some are even accusing players that used the rules of pathfinder society play to their advantage of cheating. I understand you are volunteers, but I cannot believe you are permitted to act this way on behalf of Paizo.

As a customer with paying money, this is not something I wish to support.

I encourage you to use whatever metrics available to you to make your choices, and I don't doubt that leadership involved did in fact spend time on reaching this decision, but know that the decision you made over this came with a loss of several sales to support a future pathfinder society character.

I am not going to spend money with a company that would treat me, my time, or my limited resources like this.


1. Run the AP that most interests you.
2. As few or as many as you are comfortable bookkeeping on
3. Keep in mind that you aren't just a player, you are an entire party. However many and what classes you pick should be dictated by their ability to cover every hazard they come across in an adventure.
4. Don't waste your time with 200 pages of templates/optional rules, you already have a party to manage resources for and an adventure to run.
5a. Read the adventure cover to cover before you even begin, or you will constantly be interrupting the flow of events.
5b. If you want to try and maintain a separation between dm and player decision making, write a few sentences about each characters personalities. Define how they act under pressure, while calm, in social situations, ect.
5c. I'll say it again: preparation is key. The more familiar you are with the builds/books/module, the smoother it will play out.

background:
I also have a schedule that makes meeting most groups playtimes impossible. The few I have found were comprised of insufferable wankers the likes of which should be committed to institutions.


With raging and armor proficiency, what is the cutoff point for AC requirements of barbarian builds? We could have potential 20 temporary hp from rage and damage reduction, and I'm not seeing the value of getting a barbarians AC in a respectable place. Anything below 20 is going to get hit, and 22 isn't a realistic goal for a barbarian.


Tsu, of the little things wrote:


A friend of mine likes to play fighters. However, he has been arguing that they are too weak, as even other martial classes like the barbarian are better than the fighter, especially at higher levels...

...I scouted for dangerous looking monster, baited him over to me, then used acrobatics to get the monster between him and me and started to pound him with returning thrown weapons, while the monster acted as a barrier...

...In the end I won quite fairly...

Using smarter tactics than another player does not prove that one class is mechanically better than another. Nothing you did was something a barbarian could not have done.

Tsu, of the little things wrote:


...I managed to chase while avoiding the attacks by the monster, grappled, then stuck to him till he died...

...My GM has rules that I could use my weapon training bonus to grapple checks...

Houserules kinda throw the whole point of class balance discussion.

I'm glad you guys had fun though.


7heprofessor wrote:
As you can see, Mathwei ap Niall addressed this on page one of this thread:

I think the part that threw me for a loop there was that I wasn't differentiating between the cost of creation and the cost of modification. My mistake.

I'll have to give the thread another once over.


Would you be willing to rebuild to be able to make money more effectively during downtime? You could pick up blood money and combine it with masterwork transformation? I know it has already been mentioned, but as a 3rd level wizard this could be really good for you and your group, and its a surefire way to make money in a world that fears magic. Nobody will see you make it, and masterwork gear isn't magical in nature. Weapons, armor, ammunition, kits, all can be made masterwork.

Ask your DM about this, and let us know what he thinks about investing character resources (spells known/spell slots) to increase your wealth to be closer to wealth-by-level range.


This sounds beyond awesome, especially when you consider things like wizard familiars and beast bonded witches... But I could use some clarification on this. Here's the bit from the PRD that makes me question the rules legality of it:

rules quotes:

PRD on "Hit Dice Modification of Constructs" wrote:
Hit Dice Modification: Hit Dice represent the overall strength and power of a construct. They affect a number of subsequent abilities, including hit points, saving throws, and base attacks. Determine the effects of a Hit Dice modification using the rules for adding creature Hit Dice on pages 290–291 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary. Because a construct’s size is limited, a Hit Dice modification cannot increase its size. Therefore Hit Dice modification can never increase the base construct’s Hit Dice beyond 50% of its total HD. Some constructs have a defined cost for increasing Hit Dice. To calculate the cost per Hit Die of other constructs, divide the construct’s construction cost by its existing Hit Dice.
PFSRD on "Homunculus Creation" wrote:
...A homunculus with more than 2 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +2,000 gp to the cost to create.

I know we always go specifics trump generalities, but I don't see anything in the section on Homunculus creation that trumps the size limitations. The only thing I see is it lists a defined cost for increasing HD (which of course trumps the HD calculation method of cost/existing HD).


sgtrocknroll wrote:
3rd Lvl Halfling Wizard - GM makes him keep track of spell components

... Out of worried concern, you mean expensive spell components, right? Not like the minute things that come from a spell component pouch?


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Finian, I could really use more context on those situations you provided. If its due to poor play, I can recommend some foolproof builds. If its due to an adversarial dm, well... I can still recommend builds, but you will have to talk to the dm out of character about things first.

Mr. Dodo wrote:
Punch your GM IRL (in real life)

I don't think physical violence over a game of pretend is the best course of action for him.


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finian wrote:
My first character tried to save one of the other in the party, by shooting at the werewolf. It ran me down, and i died.

Ok..... so did you run from the group, were you already isolated, or...?

finian wrote:
My second character got killed in his sleep, by a assassins.

This is usually a sign you either failed every social interaction, or your DM doesn't like you/your character.

finian wrote:
How thought he was another person.

I don't... I have no idea what you are even trying to say with this sentence.

finian wrote:
My next character just dissepeared. He was never seen again.

So he just vanished into the night? Somebody killed him and took the body? Can you elaborate on this?

finian wrote:
i think he's name was john smith, and he looked like tintin.

....What?

finian wrote:
My next character pissed off a wizard.

Welcome to pathfinder, where full casters are hilariously broken. What did you do to anger the wizard?

finian wrote:
My last character got flangt from all directions, he was dead in two rounds

Well that sounds like a learning experience. Don't let yourself get surrounded. Though I am curious on the details of how that happened.

Please sir, give your typing a once over before posting for clarity. We can help better if we fully understand.


I reserve judgment/advice until we get the full story on how all previous characters died.


SPACEBALL12345 wrote:
Would this be the appropriate place to ask if Glorious Heat was written as it was intended to be? It reads now that it heals for half of the character level, instead of healing based on the level of spell used. Should we be using the books latest printed wording, or the wording given here?

Shameless bump for clarification?


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So... Uh...

Were we all in agreement that Zen Archery works with the boon posted here?


MendedWall12 wrote:
This! The Mark Moreland and Jason Bulmahn quotes are from three years ago, where they said they would change it to spell level if they reprinted it, but then they went ahead and reprinted last month and didn't change it.

This is what I want to know. Was it intentional? Should we start a new thread/post this elsewhere or should we continue to necro this thread?


Would this be the appropriate place to ask if Glorious Heat was written as it was intended to be? It reads now that it heals for half of the character level, instead of healing based on the level of spell used. Should we be using the books latest printed wording, or the wording given here?


Just to clarify, when you say they kept the restrictions in additional resources, you mean the section that only applies to society play, not the pathfinder rules, correct?


Just out of curiosity, do you find yourself preparing more offensive/save or lose spells, or more along the lines of buffs/defensive spells?


andreww wrote:
He probably switches his sanctum to a permanent widened Prismatic Sphere. Staff of the Master allows him to widen it. That may give the Cave Druid a bit more of an issue but those using Disjunction are not affected.

Actually, I'm not seeing how that gives the cave druid an issue. The bottom half of the sphere is blocked by the floor, and the 6th layer removes the houseruled wall of force. So there isn't anything in the way of the earth gliding ooze.

Any idea what the dc is going to be in the situation i presented earlier?

Also still waiting on that build you mentioned that can beat this.

Also curious if he is holding the rod of absorption or the staff of the master necromancer when the encounter begins.

Edit: Also, wouldn't the 7th layer remove all of the lava, given enough time?


You. I like you. We could be friends. We should be friends.

andreww wrote:
It is a variant on forbiddance, hardly unusual for a high level caster to achieve.

My point was that its not achievable RAW, which is generally what these kinds of contests are about. You clearly stated it in your original post though, so not as big a deal.

andreww wrote:
You think that wish cant reshape a wall of force? You must have a very limited imagination.

Again, my point was that this is not possible via RAW without dm fiat. If we were running an actual game, I'd be down with it. But in a charop contest?

andreww wrote:
He wont hear the sound of the wall being broken, he *may* notice the change in the internal conditions of his sanctum even while asleep. Being asleep imposes a -10 penalty on his +52 perception.

Let me try and math this as best I can.

Wall of force is invisible and stationary, so +40 to the dc to notice.
Lets assume the goal is to get him while he sleeps, so the dc increases by 10.
I cannot find any modifiers for adding silence to this, so that would be up to you.
The closest base perception check listed is "notice a creature burrowing beneath you", which is set at 25.

So he has a 52 perception vs 40(invisible)+10(asleep)+25(burrowed)+silence. I guess it is in your realm how much silence is worth. And I'm really not sure about the burrowed modifier either. It might be better for you to set the DC so we can build accordingly, unless you plan on running it for contenders (that could be fun!)?

Seriously though, that seems really high. Can somebody check my math?

andreww wrote:
The noble family bit is entirely fluff text attached to the feat. It is not actually a requirement and is therefore irrelevant.

I was more of giving you a playful ribbing. From the bottom of my post: *yeah, I get it, he's optimized. But seriously? I'm gonna give you a hard time for that one sir. Sorry if that didn't come off as a laugher, I guess I'm not so good at humor.

andreww wrote:
Spells only require line of effect at the point at which they are cast.

I'm guessing that is at the initial casting only and not for the entire duration? Might be something to ask on the rules forum, don't wanna clog things up here.

andreww wrote:
I am suggesting that dragons have talons on their front and rear legs both of which are capable of carrying things but the glove of storing idea works much better.

So does he stand on one leg, hold the rod he wants to use in the other, and use the free hand for somatic requirements? Maybe he keeps one held in his tail like a teifling with the Prehensile Tail trait? Help me understand this here. If he still has wealth left over for the gloves, keep in mind that means he can only really have one rod active. To use the other from the glove, he's still going to have to drop the first item to complete somatic components.

Again, my main concerns are that you use a lot of gray areas, house rules, and dm fiat, which (in my own friendly personal opinion) aren't entirely appropriate for a charop challenge.

Edit: I'm still curious about the build you mentioned that succeeded. What approach did you take?


andreww wrote:
Of course not but high level characters have concerns that go beyond a single town or city.

Assuming intent is not something I'm a fan of. Its entirely possible a character could hail from a tiny island village that has no ties to any other nation.

andreww wrote:
As has been already mentioned earthquake, demand and gate are all means by which he can be forced from his lair. It is also entirely possibly to remove his defences. The divination block is simply a large scale Private Sanctum and the teleportation block a variant on Forbiddance. Disjunction is a thing after all.

Oh don't get me wrong sir, I'm not saying your challenge is impossible. People have already posted some great ideas. My main concern, which I outlined in my previous post (which you have yet to really reply to, I guess I should be grateful you read the first line of that post? I don't know your schedule, I'm sure you'll get to it eventually), was thus: if you want to pose a RAW tactical charop challenge, you need to 1) play by the same rules your players do, and 2) explicitly state all of the rules/tactics/conditions before the challenge begins. Vague "He may do something in so many days", or "well I houserule breaking force wall works like this" is hard to work with.

Either way, I'm going to give you a B for effort. It looks like you put a lot of thought into the encounter, but there are still a few places you could improve on.

This is salvageable though. Still looking to see what other builds come.


SPACEBALL12345 wrote:
Also, any reason we don't just wait for him to attack the city and deal with him outside of his lair? (Provided we can do some silly things to prepare for him attacking.)
andreww wrote:
Mostly because you do not know which city he will strike next and due to mind blank cannot use divinations to determine which it is ahead of time.
andreww wrote:
...Now his attentions have turned to your homeland...

.....Are you telling me my character doesn't know where he's from?

Yeah, I know this is getting a little pedantic, but come on sir. This challenge is getting out of hand. Lets recap:

1)Selective magic trait that prohibits anybody other than the dragon from using teleportation of any kind.
2)Using wish to create an effect other than what the spell was intended (I'm looking at the wall of force used horizontally)
3)Destroying a force wall, even when silenced, alerts him. Even while asleep.
4)He's a member of a noble family (scion of war)*
5)I'll give you this one, it might be obvious, but when Prismatic Sphere states "When you're inside it, however, the sphere blocks any attempt to project something through the sphere (including spells)", wouldn't that remove the shield other effect as soon as he leaves the buff bubble?
6)When you say "He arguably has 4 limbs capable of carrying things" after discussing that both claws are holding rods... Are you suggesting that he casts spells with his wings, his toes, or that he's carrying coconuts under his dorsal guiding feathers?
7)Somehow, challengers forget where they come from.

Also, I'm going to call you out. You say you've got a character that has completed this challenge. Show/share your work please?

*yeah, I get it, he's optimized. But seriously? I'm gonna give you a hard time for that one sir.


Kayerloth wrote:
SPACEBALL12345 wrote:
Do we have as long as we want to prep for the fight, or are we working on a time limit?
Does it make a difference and if so what is your answer/solution for both?

You can do an awful lot of things with enough time as a higher level character. I don't have anything specific mathed out yet, I just wanted to know what was acceptable or not from andreww.

Kayerloth wrote:
He could cause an awful tremendous amount of damage in very short order to any town/city/village considering Incendis is a great wyrm.

I'm of the opinion that in pathfinder, death is cheap and preventable, and that is assuming a worst case scenario where we don't respond as soon as he shows up. Again, all depends on what time constraints there are.

And for the comments on CR, I was more of pointing out how selective anti-magic house rules are seen as 'not difficult for a high level character'. Maybe it isn't hard and I'm just horrible at charop (highly likely), but just getting around the environment seems to be more than half the challenge.


Do we have as long as we want to prep for the fight, or are we working on a time limit?

Also, any reason we don't just wait for him to attack the city and deal with him outside of his lair? (Provided we can do some silly things to prepare for him attacking.)

Also...

andreww wrote:
I have ignored the environment in the CR calculation as nothing about it should create much in the way of difficulty for any high level character.
andreww wrote:
As noted at the start his lair is warded to prevent teleportation or divination. Naturally it doesn't affect him, although I appreciate that is pure fiat.

I'm not sure how I should feel about this.


Jiao-long wrote:
...Additionally/alternatively, maybe some nifty consumables or X/day items that could help me deal with weird situations?...

Sipping Jacket. Get potions that last rounds/day to be much more useful. (haste, vanish, sanctuary, abjuring step(?))

Upgrade that cloak of resist to +3. Saves just get more and more important the higher a level you get.

Feather token (tree). Because... You always need more trees. Too versatile to not have one on hand.


SPACEBALL12345 wrote:
... Retraining something like dodge to that would give you two feats, so you could go power attack AND furious focus, giving you the damage without hurting your chance to hit as much.

Sometimes I'm a very special child. Especially when I try to retrain a combat feat into a regional feat and then give myself an extra feat.


Well you aren't doing enough damage to gib things in one round at that level, and if society play is anything like the table here then you can't really afford to go below +18 to hit if you want to hit things at CR 12 or higher somewhat reliably. If I had to choose one of the feats you listed, I'd consider improved critical. Could be useful if your final adventure takes you to a high enough level to unlock the capstone EK ability.

Looking at your setup listed, you seem pretty concerned about getting hit. You only have 2 hits on a full attack at 12, maybe consider wind stance? Kind of an out there choice, but if you just don't wanna get hit, its hard to go wrong with miss chances. Could save you a casting of blur if you plan on it being over quickly.

I know you don't want to retrain, but have you considered Acadamae Graduate? You should have a fort save of at least +9, I'm guessing higher with items, so you might be able to reliably get a flank bonus and more attacks on your own(with cloak of resistance +3, you'd fail the save on a 4-7 depending on spell level, not too bad). Retraining something like dodge to that would give you two feats, so you could go power attack AND furious focus, giving you the damage without hurting your chance to hit as much.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Is there a reason you couldn't attach the chord to your clothes so the wand will hang from your clothes and not hand?

It depends... Can Jason Bulmahn do it?


Soul eater(drinker) will give you infinite money if you keep a healthy farm/ buy wands of summon monster 1. Only need a 2 level dip (or a cohort) to make it work.

I can't find the post now, but there is a combo with a 20th lvl oracle revelation and awaken animal that let's you go infinite on your hd and cha score.

Wizard has true name, which you can use to get a genie to grant wishes.

Simulacrum and blood money can cause havoc.

You can combine the infinite gold with the rules for modifying constructs to have a golem with near infinite str and dex.

If you search for the old beastmass thread, somebody posted a pretty solid diviner that beat big T himself.

How high a level does he plan on the campaign going?


@PSusac: Well now I feel silly. Should have realized that was two standard actions. Thanks for catching that.

Assuming we fly up and drop the object then use the command word, are there rules for how a falling cage like that would work though? I'm not even sure where to begin looking in the rules for examples of things like this. Sorry if this is an obvious one that i'm missing.


Well, if you really really wanna push things to the limit, a few things that haven't been mentioned in this thread yet...

1) Give the retraining rules a read. Use them to increase your maximum hp to the max per die. Or start as a martial character and retrain as a caster when you get high enough level to be able to have the key spells.

2) Battle cattle. Get a combat trained bison and optimize for handle animal for the early levels. It will be a better adventurer than you are for a while.

3) Seriously ask your DM if you can start at level 2 or 3. There is nothing fun about death at the hands of two cr 1/3 kobolds that rolled lucky.

4) If it really is just one character doing an adventure designed for a party of 4, ask if you are going to be standard wbl, or getting the loot that a full party would.

5) Use leadership to get a crafter that has different spells than you do. ex if playing an oracle, get a wizard cohort. Make them an android for the racial ability to add their character level to any d20 roll, great for higher craft dcs. Don't forget he's still a full caster, and casting beneficial spells won't break invisibility for him.

6) Blood money.

7) Repeating spell traps. Seriously, consider it.

8) Get a wand of unseen servant to check for traps. An hour of trap detection per cast is a good deal for 750.

9) Get a scroll/cast contingency on yourself as soon as possible. There will be something you forget, or a roll that will not be in your favor, and this will give you an easy way to escape and recover.


15 point without dumping at first level is going to really really REALLY hurt.

Is this something where your dm wants you to push the system to the very limit, or are you just trying to have a laugh with a one character adventure to see how far you get?


I'm curious now. Can you use shrink item on a mechanical or magical trap? It isn't a creature, but does it count as an item?

Also of note: throw a shrunken cage/net, issue command word while airborne. Would it even allow a save?


Gingerbreadman wrote:
Would an animated rope be tiny?

Depends on the length and weight of the rope. I'd consult this page for more information on size restrictions.

Gingerbreadman wrote:
But how would it work if the rope tries to secure itself so someone can climb it?

I'm not finding anything that could prevent that. Might go into dm fiat territory depending on how good of a knot you want it to make.

Gingerbreadman wrote:
An would an animated flute be able to play itself?

Constructs cannot take ranks in skills. However, you can use the bioconstruct: brain modification to bypass this. That being said, there is nothing stopping it from using the skill untrained.

Gingerbreadman wrote:
Where does an animated object with a ranged attack get its ammo from?

Magic. I can't find anything in the rules to suggest they use ammo.


A) Tiny Construct Stats

B) Animated Object Rules

pfsrd on 'Animated Objects' wrote:
An animated object is not simply one monster, but a whole category. Stats are included here for Tiny through Colossal animated objects (with Construction Points that have not been spent to gain additional abilities), but any object can become animated, most commonly via the spell animate objects. Permanent animated objects can be built using the Craft Construct feat. Unless an animated object uses a Construction Point to be made of another material, all animated objects are made of wood or material of equivalent hardness.

Emphasis was me. You can have that animated object look like anything you want..... what? Don't look at me like that. I'm just saying.

C)I honestly don't know this one. I'm not seeing rules that state either way if you can or cannot. They don't normally 'wield' weapons like a humanoid would, so this might go into DM fiat territory. Anybody else have more info on this?

D)Picking up an item is a move action. I don't believe its any different if it is handed to you or if you pick it up off the floor.

pfsrd on 'Move Actions' wrote:

Manipulate an Item

Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.

This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.


Quicken vanish? No no no friend, you want a sipping jacket with potions of vanish.

Save yourself a feat and use some of the dosh you are saving to get vanish as a swift action for a round. 5000 for the jacket, 50 per potion. Up the CL on the potion to get that vanish 2 or 3 times per day. Say hello to cheap 50% miss chance on demand. Or any other potion with rounds/level you feel you should use for the day. Like all those spells not on your spell list. (unless you are using your swift action for something else, just looking at the feats/classes you listed)

Also, I'm not sure if spring attack is worth the feat tax. You plan on using defensive illusions like vanish and mirror image, so I don't think the pre reqs would see any use. Maybe there is a lot of nasty cleaving going on in PFS that encourages only one person being close to an enemy, but I'm not sure how spring attack is going to justify two dead feats for you. Unless this has something to do with the latest seasons meta. I've only seen a smattering of season 3.

If it were me building this without considering other class options, and I just HAD to have spring attack, I'd drop empower, quicken, and toughness. The quicken you can get from the jacket(not all spells, but some good ones), the empower you can get from a rod (if you really gotta have it), and your defensive illusions could cover the hp loss from toughness.


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@DrDeth: It is a facebook post from Jason Bulmahn, the man who felt weapon cords should not be a swift action because he failed to do so in real life.

Using that kind of metric for tabletop fantasy design would be the same as me trying to use bat poop and sulfur to cast a fireball, not even getting a spark, and then removing the spell from the game because I can't make fire shoot from my hands in real life.

For those wary of navigating to the page:

Jason Bulmahn image wrote:


Jason, original post: Spent a part of the morning tying my mouse to my hand by the cord and figuring out how tricky it was to get the thing back in my hand. Its not impossible.. but its not a swift action.

Jason, reply: Somedays my job is quite entertaining...

Scott Fernandez: Thinking of revising or getting rid of the weapon cord?

Jason Bulmahn: Yup... we just posted an FAQ changing it from a swift action to a move action. We also walked back the advice on Free Actions.


Fast healer is another option. Has a pretty big feat tax, and only affects yourself.

pfsrd on 'Fast Healer' feat wrote:

Fast Healer

You benefit greatly from your healing, be it from spells or natural healing.

Prerequisites: Con 13, Diehard, Endurance.

Benefit: When you regain hit points by resting or through magical healing, you recover additional hit points equal to half your Constitution modifier (minimum +1).

Gets better the more con you have. Not really optimal, but it is an option.


Best I can do was the quote I found earlier from James Jacobs.

I'll link it again HERE if that helps.


prd on 'types' wrote:
The second difference is that all of these race types are 0-Hit Dice creatures, which means that their Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies are based on the class levels each member of a race takes.

Ok, THAT makes more sense. Thank you Weren!


Serum wrote:
Check out the subtype section. Native outsiders explicitly do not get martial weapon proficiency.
d20pfsrd on 'subtypes' wrote:
Some creatures have one or more subtypes. Subtypes add additional abilities and qualities to a creature.
d20pfsrd on 'native subtype' wrote:
This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

So the subtype normally adds additional features to the creature type. They do not replace or remove traits, except in this case it modifies the resurection/need to eat and sleep, where those traits are explicitly mentioned. It does not modify any other part. So a native outsider has all the outsider traits, plus those listed under native. Native outsider does not replace everything listed under outsider, it adds to it.

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