Just wanted to let you know that some dude is trying to pass off part of your beguiler conversion inside his own over at giant in the playground. Here's the link if you want to deal with it yourself.
Just wanted to let you know that some dude is trying to pass off part of your beguiler conversion inside his own over at giant in the playground. Here's the link if you want to deal with it yourself.
Yikes, that's crazy disrespectful! I know LT Silverstar and I have put hours of our time into playtesting this class for ertw and he's put in many times that putting together this awesome conversion. It's pretty scummy that he's willing to admit to stealing stuff from other unnamed sources, but not from ertw. Shameful. Absolutely shameful.
I think the beguiling discipline ability of the hellknight deceiver is really interesting, finally something that might make me reconsider my opinions about PrCs for beguilers. The focus on two-bladed swords is interesting, fitting with the idea of the hellknight orders' favored weapons, and these abilities finally might actually make the two-bladed sword work (I never understood why they'd deny finesse to a weapon built to be used with a high dex combat form like TWF). The only thing that seems kind of out of place is armored mage, a beguiler in medium armor seems uncharacteristic.
The armor thing is kind of in line with the hellknight's schtick. Take a look at the hellknight enforcer which is very similar to this class, it involves casting in heavy armor.
Guys, please don't follow this guy around the paizo boards harassing him. I didn't ask for anybody to go on a crusade against him on my behalf. I was aware of his conversion when it was on reddit and his thread here, but didn't look at it too closely. While those abilities definitely bear significant similarities to mine, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he says it's a coincidence. We're both converting from the same beguiler class with roughly similar ideas, it's not outside the realm of possibility that we came to the same place with a few ideas.
The guilds themselves are fantastic, tons of options and variations to fit beguilers of all stripes. You really do have a way with flavor that is incredibly compelling.
Thank you again for your kind words. It really does mean a lot to know that other people find my work as enjoyable as I do.
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I think the beguiling discipline ability of the hellknight deceiver is really interesting, finally something that might make me reconsider my opinions about PrCs for beguilers. The focus on two-bladed swords is interesting, fitting with the idea of the hellknight orders' favored weapons, and these abilities finally might actually make the two-bladed sword work (I never understood why they'd deny finesse to a weapon built to be used with a high dex combat form like TWF). The only thing that seems kind of out of place is armored mage, a beguiler in medium armor seems uncharacteristic.
SylverFox wrote:
The armor thing is kind of in line with the hellknight's schtick. Take a look at the hellknight enforcer which is very similar to this class, it involves casting in heavy armor.
As SylverFox correctly noticed, the Hellknight deceiver is based on the Hellknight signifier prestige class from Paths of Prestige. The Hellknights have always been a bit armour mad and I wanted to keep the deceivers in that vein, but didn't feel right going all the way to heavy armour.
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I haven't quite gotten a feel for the stygian skirmisher. I see what you're trying to do, trading magic for BAB, but I'm just not sure how well it fits. Baleful shadow and ghastly claw beguilers seem like prime candidates for this PrC, but baleful shadow gets denied the defining ability for the class. Still it's a very interesting mesh of the current and previous versions of baleful shadow. The combat schools are a really cool idea, but contingency blade seems like an odd choice for a high level ability since it steps away from the specialization created at prior levels of the class.
As mentioned it's a more martial take on the beguiler, using magic to power combat abilities (eg. dark regeneration). Baleful shadow didn't get stygian step again because I didn't want them double-dipping to spend the whole day wraith stepping. It's because of this trade off that I gave the skirmisher wraith synergy as a counter-balance. The contingency blade ability was made to work hand-in-hand with a feat I'm going to be including in this document that allows for limited interchangeability between the weapons and the combat abilities.
Guys, please don't follow this guy around the paizo boards harassing him. I didn't ask for anybody to go on a crusade against him on my behalf. I was aware of his conversion when it was on reddit and his thread here, but didn't look at it too closely. While those abilities definitely bear significant similarities to mine, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he says it's a coincidence. We're both converting from the same beguiler class with roughly similar ideas, it's not outside the realm of possibility that we came to the same place with a few ideas.
This seems way too fishy to me, but I'll respect your wishes.
ertw wrote:
The contingency blade ability was made to work hand-in-hand with a feat I'm going to be including in this document that allows for limited interchangeability between the weapons and the combat abilities.
That is an interesting possibility. Not sure I'm enthused about a class feature being dependent on a feat, though.
Guys, please don't follow this guy around the paizo boards harassing him. I didn't ask for anybody to go on a crusade against him on my behalf. I was aware of his conversion when it was on reddit and his thread here, but didn't look at it too closely. While those abilities definitely bear significant similarities to mine, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he says it's a coincidence. We're both converting from the same beguiler class with roughly similar ideas, it's not outside the realm of possibility that we came to the same place with a few ideas.
Not only giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, but also offering suggestions to help make Haitch Kay's conversion better? You are a total class act, ertw. Bravo.
I apologize for not saying anything before, but I do like this conversion a lot and plan on using the Beguiler of the Wandering Heart.
I admit, I do wish there was an Order for a merchant style Beguiler with or one with a connection to the nobility or elite of a city.
I'm not sure how I managed to miss this post over the past few months, so I'm sorry for the delayed response. Thank you so much for your kind words about the conversion. It's quite auspicious that I noticed this post while looking for an older comment as I'm currently thinking about potential new orders/archetypes for the Beguilers of the Inner Sea document (currently working on an archetype for an Int-based beguiler that functions outside of the guild structure) and both the mercantile and noble orders you mentioned sound like they might be interesting avenues to pursue. I'm curious if you had any particular ideas about these types of beguilers, how they might act, and what kind of order powers they might have?
For those interested, here's the archetype I mentioned in my last post:
Tomebound Beguiler (archetype):
Tomebound Beguiler (archetype)
When a grimoire full of the beguilers' secrets finds its way into the hands of one wise enough to know its true worth, a strange creature is born: A tomebound beguiler. Through hours of careful study, the tomebound beguiler unlocks the secrets behind the beguiler's magic, but with neither guild nor order to guide her she must forge her own path. The tome she carries with her is the true source of a tomebound beguiler's power and it is paramount that she protect the mysteries within by any means necessary.
Class Skills: Appraise, and Linguistics.
Diminished Spell Knowledge: A tomebound beguiler lacks the focused knowledge of her spells that characterizes other beguilers. As a result her number of spells known at each level follows the sorcerer progression (see Table 3-15: Sorcerer Spells Known in the Core Rulebook) rather than the typical beguiler progression.
Beguiler's Tome: The beguiler's tome is the true source of a tomebound beguiler's arcane power. It contains a plethora of secrets and techniques which power a beguiler's unique abilities. This tome also acts as a spellbook containing the complete beguiler spell list from which a tomebound beguiler learns her known spells. In lieu of the typical ritual, the tomebound beguiler must study her tome for an hour to refresh her daily spell allotment as well as any other powers that have a daily use limit. As long as the tome is in her possession, the tomebound beguiler can also cast read magic at will, even if she does not know the spell.
At 2nd level a tomebound beguiler gains the ability to prepare four spells of each level she can cast. These prepared spell slots operate identically to the savvy preparation class feature in all ways with the exception of their quantity.
At any time a tomebound beguiler can add spells of the enchantment and illusion schools to her tome if she gains access to a wizard's spellbook or communes with a witch's familiar (see Chapter 9: Magic in the Core Rulebook), however these spells are not added to the beguiler spell list. While she cannot normally add these spells to her spells known or prepare them, she can use the tome as an arcane focus in order to attempt to cast them as if she were casting the spell from a scroll. This casting does not consume the spell from her tome, but requires her to exhaust two spell slots of the appropriate level; these spell slots are used up even if she fails the requisite Use Magic Device check. The tomebound beguiler gains a +1 luck bonus to this check for every 5 levels of beguiler she possesses.
If a tomebound beguiler's tome is lost or destroyed, she is subject to serious consequences. Without ready access to the tome, she loses the ability to refresh any abilities with a daily use limit (including her daily allotment of spells). Furthermore, she becomes unable to gain new levels as a beguiler. Theses consequences can only be reversed if the tomebound beguiler gains access to a new tome.
This ability replaces the charlatan's cant and savvy preparation.
Force of Will (Ex): A tomebound beguiler's personality is an unmatched force granting her an absolutely indomitable will. At 1st level, she adds her Charisma modifier as a morale bonus to Will saves made to disbelieve illusions (minimum 0).
At 9th level, a tomebound beguiler applies this bonus to any Will save she makes. This ability replaces the order power gained at 1st level.
Borrowed Knowledge (Ex): At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a beguiler learns an additional spell that is written her tome. This spell must be from the enchantment or illusion schools, but does not have to be on the beguiler's spell list. These spells are in additional to the number of spells given on Table 3-15: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels. This ability replaces order patronage (order spells).
Restorative Study (Su): At 7th level, as part of a tomebound beguiler's daily studies of her tome she gains a pool of spell points equal to 1/2 her beguiler level. With a swift action she can regain a single exhausted spell slot by expending a number of spell points equal to the slot's level. Any spell points she has not used when her daily spell allotment is refreshed are wasted. This ability replaces the order power gained at 7th level.
Beguiling Strike (Su): At 13th level, whenever a beguiler uses the full attack action a tomebound beguiler can choose to forego her final attack to cast a spell. The spell must come from the enchantment school and must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If this spell has a range greater than close, its range is reduced to 25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels). Any spell cast this way gains all the benefits afforded to the tomebound beguiler by her cloaked casting ability. This ability replaces the order power gained at 13th level.
Adept Beguiler (Su): At 20th level, a tomebound beguiler's mastery of her arcane magic is a match for any guild-based beguiler. Whenever a tomebound beguiler refreshes her daily allotment of spells, she can select three of the following order powers and gains their benefits: beguiling aura, charmed casting, death blow, enchanted casting, false theurgy, paralyzing strike, shadow trickery, stealspell, stygian step, wraith strike. If she selects an order power which requires or modifies an order power she is not granted by this ability, she does not receive the benefits of that order power. This ability replaces paragon's aspect.
I have been looking for a class like the beguiler for a very long time, since I skipped from 3.0 D&D to Pathfinder. I really love everything about it, using magic and deception together sounds like a lot of fun. My only concern is that ertw's class and it's updated version is ridiculously broken, especially everything about the spells (my god the spells). I like where you're going with it, the feint abilities, the class abilities..but it looks like it's trying to be better than all the core classes.
-Make the spells known/per day like the bard or the inquisitor
-Get rid of the Feint abilities except for the last one, only if they have Greater Feint by that time.
-Give less than a few key class abilities, which means getting rid of everything else. I'd keep Charlatan's Cant, Order Powers, Savvy Preparation, and Swift Feint.
It looks like all the archetypes also have a lot of special class abilities. Look at the paizo archetypes and see how rich yours is compared them...less is more.
-Maybe put the Silent Spell & Still Spell as an archetype.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock it, I really love all your ideas, but my GM (being the rules lawyer that he is) would never allow this, and that saddens me. :(
My only concern is that ertw's class and it's updated version is ridiculously broken, especially everything about the spells (my god the spells). I like where you're going with it, the feint abilities, the class abilities..but it looks like it's trying to be better than all the core classes.
As somebody who has played the 3.5 beguiler a great deal and extensively playtested this conversion, you're way off the mark. The beguiler, for all its abilities and features, is vastly outclassed by every other 9 level caster in the game (well maybe all except the druid). I've talked about this before in this very thread, so I'll just link my comments from earlier to point out the difference between a beguiler's spells and any other caster. I'll also link to my first hand experience with how beguilers play in comparison to wizards, sorcerers, or clerics.
I created an account just so I could post to this thread in regards to your Beguiler conversion. I am not certain which is your most current revision, as I found two separate versions of the beguiler modification floating around the internet. The one I am currently using is not the one I was able to obtain from this site, but I wanted to pass along some constructive suggestions regarding the Beguiler class and the conversion you all have done a remarkable job with. I am guessing the one with Saavy-Preparation is your most current revision, and I will provide my feedback from that perspective.
1) Spells-Known
I don't feel that giving them a spells-known limit is really necessary, as the original spell list they had was severely limited and focused. People who say they shouldn't have access to those spells all the time. I noticed you expanded their spell-list /significantly/ and while that might help bring them forward in terms of power, being forced to pick and choose certain tools doesn't really do anything other than make them pick certain spells always over other ones. Suggestion: expand the spell list if you like, but just give them all of the spells.
2) Savvy-Preparation
This just feels like a gimme to bring the class to where it needs to be. Just give them access to any Enchantment or Illusion spell of their own research just like in 3.5. Giving them additional spells known, even if they are variable spells known, gives them slightly more flexibility, but is really not THAT much better. Cool though... Suggestion: give them an alternative benefit, perhaps letting them prepare spells adjusted via metamagic in any spell slots they like so they can cast them without taking a full-round action, or lowering the metamagic spell-level increase by 1 or more (min +1)
3) Order Powers
I really liked the effort put into this, it really showed a very flavorful and thoughtful process of turning the class into something more than just another class. Risky though... as it really does pigeonhole people into a certain feel, when other base classes are far far more versatile in my opinion.
4) Hide in Plain Sight
While I love this ability, I feel it is incredibly underwhelming on a class loaded with spells that can basically do the same thing. They need a different tool to make them safer. The biggest problem beguilers had, was they needed to get into melee to feint to take the biggest advantage of their class abilities. Limited to light armor and no shields, this proved to be a very very risky thing, and it left their combat abilities severely lacking. Since they can already get up close and personal via spells, (and so many of them!), it really just seems like more of the same. Suggestion: make them better tricksy fighters, they are encouraged to be in melee to feint early and feint often, why not give them a dodge feat chain, (cant get out of melee without provoking AoO's typically, feinting and moving away is a hard business!) They could use more synergy here.
My only concern is that ertw's class and it's updated version is ridiculously broken, especially everything about the spells (my god the spells). I like where you're going with it, the feint abilities, the class abilities..but it looks like it's trying to be better than all the core classes.
As somebody who has played the 3.5 beguiler a great deal and extensively playtested this conversion, you're way off the mark. The beguiler, for all its abilities and features, is vastly outclassed by every other 9 level caster in the game (well maybe all except the druid). I've talked about this before in this very thread, so I'll just link my comments from earlier to point out the difference between a beguiler's spells and any other caster. I'll also link to my first hand experience with how beguilers play in comparison to wizards, sorcerers, or clerics.
I'd like to take your word for it, though it just seems way too powerful. Although this may be a direct conversion from 3.5, a lot of people would state that pretty much everything was broken in 3.5. Though that's not the soul reason of my argument, there is simply too many great class abilities compiled into one class i.e. Trapfinding, Free Feints, Order Powers, Surprise Casting, Cloaked Casting, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Hide in Plain Sight, as well as a plethora of spells known and all the way to 9th level without preparation and with Savvy Preparation!? That is crazy talk. Comparing this class to any other class in Pathfinder doesn't even make sense.
I'd say at least make it some kind of balanced.
-If you're going to put up to 9th level spells, then at least make the BAB that of a 9th level caster. I'd recommend to bring it down up to 6th level spells if you want the 1/2 BAB.
-Make the spells known/per day that of an Inquisitor.
-Get rid of all the 3.5 class abilities, and replace them with a fewer/more refined abilities that speak potential.
Sagacity (Ex)
Hiding in plain sight, beguilers are masters of charm and trickery, using her wit more so than the sword or magic, to bend the laws of perception in her favour. At the start of each day, a beguiler gains a number of sagacity points equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). A beguiler spends sagacity to accomplish deeds (see below), and regains panache in the following way.
Each time a beguiler rolls a 5, 10, 15, or 20 with a d20 on any attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, she regains 1 sagacity point.
Deeds: Beguilers spend sagacity points to accomplish deeds. Most deeds grant the beguiler a momentary bonus or effect, but some provide longer-lasting effects. Some deeds remain in effect while the beguiler has at least 1 sagacity point, but do not require expending sagacity to be maintained. A beguiler can only perform deeds of her level or lower. Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the beguiler has or spends the required number of sagacity points to perform the deed.
Swift Feint (Ex): At 1st level, as a standard action, a beguiler can spend 1 sagacity point to purposefully miss a creature she could make a melee attack against with a wielded light weapon. When she does, the creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of the beguiler's next turn. At 11th level, this becomes a swift action.
Savvy Preparation (Ex): At 3rd level, a beguiler can spend 2 sagacity points as a swift action, to prepare a single spell one level lower than her highest caster level.
Cunning Casting (Ex): At 7th level, a beguiler can spend 3 sagacity points as a standard action, to gain the effects of the Silent Spell feat for a number of rounds equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1).
My only concern is that ertw's class and it's updated version is ridiculously broken, especially everything about the spells (my god the spells). I like where you're going with it, the feint abilities, the class abilities..but it looks like it's trying to be better than all the core classes.
As somebody who has played the 3.5 beguiler a great deal and extensively playtested this conversion, you're way off the mark. The beguiler, for all its abilities and features, is vastly outclassed by every other 9 level caster in the game (well maybe all except the druid). I've talked about this before in this very thread, so I'll just link my comments from earlier to point out the difference between a beguiler's spells and any other caster. I'll also link to my first hand experience with how beguilers play in comparison to wizards, sorcerers, or clerics.
I'd like to take your word for it, though it just seems way too powerful. Although this may be a direct conversion from 3.5, a lot of people would state that pretty much everything was broken in 3.5. Though that's not the soul reason of my argument, there is simply too many great class abilities compiled into one class i.e. Trapfinding, Free Feints, Order Powers, Surprise Casting, Cloaked Casting, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Hide in Plain Sight, as well as a plethora of spells known and all the way to 9th level without preparation and with Savvy Preparation!? That is crazy talk. Comparing this class to any other class in Pathfinder doesn't even make sense.
The idea that everything in 3.5 was broken is absolutely ludicrous, if it's true we'd better throw out everything in pathfinder since the system is built on the bones of 3.5. Regardless I'm going to choose to rely on my at-table experience with this class to determine its balance over your speculative theorycrafting. If you (or your DM) don't care to trust that experience, that's fine. You're the ones losing out by not using this conversion and I sincerely doubt ertw is going to neuter his conversion for your benefit.
My only concern is that ertw's class and it's updated version is ridiculously broken, especially everything about the spells (my god the spells). I like where you're going with it, the feint abilities, the class abilities..but it looks like it's trying to be better than all the core classes.
As somebody who has played the 3.5 beguiler a great deal and extensively playtested this conversion, you're way off the mark. The beguiler, for all its abilities and features, is vastly outclassed by every other 9 level caster in the game (well maybe all except the druid). I've talked about this before in this very thread, so I'll just link my comments from earlier to point out the difference between a beguiler's spells and any other caster. I'll also link to my first hand experience with how beguilers play in comparison to wizards, sorcerers, or clerics.
I'd like to take your word for it, though it just seems way too powerful. Although this may be a direct conversion from 3.5, a lot of people would state that pretty much everything was broken in 3.5. Though that's not the soul reason of my argument, there is simply too many great class abilities compiled into one class i.e. Trapfinding, Free Feints, Order Powers, Surprise Casting, Cloaked Casting, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Hide in Plain Sight, as well as a plethora of spells known and all the way to 9th level without preparation and with Savvy Preparation!? That is crazy talk. Comparing this class to any other class in Pathfinder doesn't even make sense.
The idea that everything in 3.5 was broken is absolutely ludicrous, if it's true we'd better throw out everything in pathfinder since the system is built on the bones of 3.5. Regardless I'm going to choose to rely on my at-table experience with...
I wasn't trying to offend you, good sir. Just stating the things I also have some experience with, no need to get rancorous. I can express my opinion on matters as well. I can just as easily say that I playtested this particular conversion ever since ertw's first release one year ago, with multiple groups, but I would be a damned liar. I can also say that my opinion plays a pivotal role because David Noonan, the designer of the players handbook 2 came to me for advice on how to create the beguiler, but I'd be a liar and a nanny. So your word is as good as mine. 3.5 was arguably unplayable because of it's broken language, that's partly why Pathfinder was born, to create a balanced system.
I was always of the opinion that Archaeologist Bard was a sort of comparable character to a Beguiler. Yes, there isn't full spell progression and it's Bard lists but the casting /rogue' theme is there.
Interesting anyway, shall read and consider.
That has been my thought, too.
An Archaeologist Bard has the same style as the Beguiler.
I'd like to take your word for it, though it just seems way too powerful. Although this may be a direct conversion from 3.5, a lot of people would state that pretty much everything was broken in 3.5.
3.5e beguiler is actually considered one of the only balanced classes
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock it, I really love all your ideas, but my GM (being the rules lawyer that he is) would never allow this, and that saddens me. :(
It just looks too good to be true.
I was in this same boat back in December. I sure am glad I listened to ertw and penumbral shadows's comments on the power level because they were right on the money IMHO. At level 10 my beguiler is definitely a few steps behind the wizard in my party, but that's okay because I still have my specific strengths to not feel obsolete.
I wasn't trying to offend you, good sir. Just stating the things I also have some experience with, no need to get rancorous. I can express my opinion on matters as well. I can just as easily say that I playtested this particular conversion ever since ertw's first release one year ago, with multiple groups, but I would be a damned liar. I can also say that my opinion plays a pivotal role because David Noonan, the designer of the players handbook 2 came to me for advice on how to create the beguiler, but I'd be a liar and a nanny. So your word is as good as mine. 3.5 was arguably unplayable because of it's broken language, that's partly why Pathfinder was born, to create a balanced system.
Saying you don't mean to offend and then calling me a liar in the next breath, yeah that all checks out. But hey if my word isn't enough, look through this thread and you'll notice two trends:
People who are playing this conversion at table who are enjoying the class despite often mentioning that other arcane casters beat them in terms of magic power and other martials beat them in terms of combat power.
Speculators and theorycrafters saying that it needs to be toned down because it looks too powerful.
As for 3.5, yes I'll be the first to admit there are things in that system that were broken and abusable, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the whole system. That's just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Sure stuff like Pun-Pun exists, but let's look at how many beguiler levels he has? Oh right it's zero. With your attitude you might as well quit playing pathfinder too because the Songbird of Doom exists.
Wow, I don't pay attention to this thread for a weekend and I've got nearly a dozen comments waiting for me! I'll try to touch on everybody's points:
Wise Old Man:
If you look back through this thread you'll see a lot of comments like yours, particularly those that focus on the spellcasting being too much for all the other abilities the class gets. I've explained many times that while a full casting class is very powerful, the incredibly limited spell list given to beguilers acts as a very significant counterbalance to that power.
Of course my bias toward the conversion is evident as I'm it's author so I rely on the testimony of playtesters to let me know how the class does when brought to a real table; playtesters like Penumbral Shadow, LT Silverstar, StealthDiabeetis, SylverFox, etc. Every time I've gotten feedback from one of these playtesters it has asserted that the class' balance puts it firmly where I had intended it: less powerful than a sorcerer, but more powerful than most of the 6-level casters.
If you and your GM are still unconvinced with regards to this conversion's balance, that's fine I won't force you to play with it. From your suggestions it sounds like you might be more interested in either an archaeologist (as Guru-Meditation mentioned) or sandman bard for your character.
Desthro:
The most current revision of the conversion can always be found at bit.ly/pathfinderbeguiler, I've edited the pdf linked in the first post to point in that direction. If you're looking at a document with savvy preparation, you've got the newest one. On to your comments:
Spells Known and Savvy Preparation: Both of these were brought in during a discussion of what to do with the spell list. I really liked the idea of maintaining the all-spells known mechanic from 3.5, but it was also hard to swallow the idea that the supposed masters of illusion and enchantment magic wouldn't have access to all those neat spells that came from books after the CRB. It was hard to justify giving a massive, all-known spell list to the beguiler from a balance standpoint (and with access to so many spells it would be pretty easy for the conversion to bog down play in practice as the beguiler's player had to search through pages of spells to figure out what she should cast next) so the spells known progression you see was the eventual middle ground I found.
The beguiler still knows significantly more spells than any other spontaneous caster, and it keeps pretty close to the original number of spells known from the 3.5 beguiler. Honestly now that I look back, I quite like the spells known version of the beguiler because it allows the player to decide whether she wants to focus on heavily illusion, enchantment, or a mix of both; anything that leads to more viable builds within the class is a win in my books.
Savvy preparation was also a bit of a bump brought in to help balance out the dip in power brought in by the spells known progression. It gives the beguiler a bit of wiggle room to tailor her spells to her current situation; so if she went with an illusion heavy list of spells known, she still has a limited ability to deal with a situation where enchantment is the more suited approach.
Order Powers: This was the first thing I added to the beguiler to make it feel more like a pathfinder class than a 3.5 class. It helps the player flavour her character to her liking, but even though the abilities are powerful, any order of beguiler would make a fairly capable mage, thief, assassin, or temptress.
Hide in Plain Sight: I think you're quite right when you mentioned that the 3.5 beguiler had a problem when it comes to being in melee to best use her abilities, but I think hide in plain sight actually helps with this. It provides the beguiler with a defensive buff (ie. not being detected) while in the heat of combat, even when she's being observed. More importantly, unlike the plethora of spells she has access to that could do the same, it doesn't require a standard action to use so the beguiler can feint, cast a spell and enter stealth for her escape all in one round.
Thanks so much for your comments and encouragement!
Wow, I don't pay attention to this thread for a weekend and I've got nearly a dozen comments waiting for me! I'll try to touch on everybody's points:
Desthro:
...
I will agree with the spells known, I mean, if you want them to have a broader spell base, it is more than reasonable. Savvy Preparation OTOH just feels like a shoddy compromise. I get that it is because they need a little push somewhere, but that push really could be put somewhere else to make them feel a little more streamlined.
As far as hide in plain sight goes, the way you describe it seems completely reasonable, (and it may in fact be reasonable...) Though, since it is a (Su), using it takes a standard action unless otherwise stated and it is suppressed by anti-magic fields. Though I am sure after this comment you will adjust the wording of the ability accordingly or make it (Ex). Also, by the time it is achieved, they are already level 17. As an example, they get greater invisibility as a 4th level spell. At level 8, they are very capable of doing what you want HiPS to do (for three fights nonetheless!!!). At level 13, they get the ability to swift feint, which is a good counter-measure to the truesight rolling around that level, and then at level 17 they get an ability that pretty much makes swift feint worthless (playing the ability as intended here) except in niche circumstances involving blindsight, (no need to feint if you are stealthed when you gib them LoL.) Also, If there was a way to quicken their level 1 goodie Vanish without pumping the spell level up 4 notches that would do pretty much the same thing as well!
It seems like a really weak holdover that really pushes the lower-level spell usage away. I still think different abilities, something that made them more wily in melee, like dodge and mobility would be a fantastic way to broaden the beguiler's repertoire and build on their skills without essentially giving them what they already have. And, quite possibly, Savvy Preparation (which seems like a terrible compromise) could go the way of the dinosaur and really push the Beguiler to something far far better.
EDIT--
Another thing worth mentioning, still a very good conversion! <3 playing it so far. LoL
I'm not sure how I managed to miss this post over the past few months, so I'm sorry for the delayed response. Thank you so much for your kind words about the conversion. It's quite auspicious that I noticed this post while looking for an older comment as I'm currently thinking about potential new orders/archetypes for the Beguilers of the Inner Sea document (currently working on an archetype for an Int-based beguiler that functions outside of the guild structure) and both the mercantile and noble orders you mentioned sound like they might be interesting avenues to pursue. I'm curious if you had any particular ideas about these types of beguilers, how they might act, and what kind of order powers they might have?
It's fine, I understand how my post could have been missed. I'm not upset about it and am actually glad that you noticed it at all, better late then never.
-----------------------------------
On my ideas for mercantile and noble orders, I don't have as much.
Perhaps the former could have an easier time finding rarer items, acquiring more for a profession and/or craft, selling items the party doesn't need, and perhaps being able to convert gold into the required martial components for spellcasting. For the latter I could see having access to leadership style abilities, finding/gaining contacts, and perhaps other benefits. Honestly I am less certain, though perhaps you can use this for ideas.
As far as hide in plain sight goes, the way you describe it seems completely reasonable, (and it may in fact be reasonable...) Though, since it is a (Su), using it takes a standard action unless otherwise stated and it is suppressed by anti-magic fields. Though I am sure after this comment you will adjust the wording of the ability accordingly or make it (Ex). Also, by the time it is achieved, they are already level 17. As an example, they get greater invisibility as a 4th level spell. At level 8, they are very capable of doing what you want HiPS to do (for three fights nonetheless!!!). At level 13, they get the ability to swift feint, which is a good counter-measure to the truesight rolling around that level, and then at level 17 they get an ability that pretty much makes swift feint worthless (playing the ability as intended here) except in niche circumstances involving blindsight, (no need to feint if you are stealthed when you gib them LoL.) Also, If there was a way to quicken their level 1 goodie Vanish without pumping the spell level up 4 notches that would do pretty much the same thing as well!
It seems like a really weak holdover that really pushes the lower-level spell usage away. I still think different abilities, something that made them more wily in melee, like dodge and mobility would be a fantastic way to broaden the beguiler's repertoire and build on their skills without essentially giving them what they already have.
While I disagree with you about savvy preparation, I think you're onto something with hide in plain sight. I agree that it's not much use by level 17 and I like your idea of giving the beguiler the dodge feat chain, but I'd go with dodge-wind stance-lightning stance instead of dodge-mobility. It ends up with similar benefits to hide in plain sight, but it's something that can be given in bits and pieces at lower levels where it's still useful.
I'd recommend against that approach. Yes hide in plain sight is a fairly middling power for a 17th level beguiler, but it is still situationally useful. While Wise Old Man is off base claiming that the beguiler is more powerful than anything else in pathfinder (indeed it sits below most full casters in the game, both arcane and divine) it is still a fairly powerful class. At high level most of its high power goods come in the form of spells and order powers, it doesn't particularly need a powerful bump again at level 17. Take a look at the wizard and sorcerer as an example for how a class like this should evolve in high level play: the wizard gains its last school power at level 8 and only gets free metamagic feats at 10 and 15, the sorcerer's bloodline powers stop at 15 before the capstone. New spells are more than enough for a beguiler.
If you do want to do something to replace hide in plain sight, I'd recommend against giving dodge for free. Instead just give wind and lightning stances without needing to meet the prereq's. If you must have something at high level, maybe at level 17 the beguiler can extend the protections of these feats to a minute once a day.
@ertw
I wish that I could offer something more like others have, but I don't have much the confidence in homebrewing when it comes to classes. I am more of a concept/idea guy and even then when it comes t expanding on such I'm not always certain.
My thoughts of mercantile and noble orders are something I would like to see, but I am unsure what I could offer in helping you put together such orders. I give some ideas above but consideration of how to impediment them or even if they are the best angles to look for when it comes so such orders I fear is not something I can say with certainty.
I just found this thread after my friend linked me to Haitch Kay's conversion further down and I am so glad I kept reading that thread after how disappointing his conversion was. This is an absolute work of art, it looks like it came right out of the pages of a Pathfinder splat book! I've only read a few pages, but I'm already incredibly excited to see what the whole document contains. The flavor and thought in it is absolutely outstanding. Thank you, ertw for all the hard work you've put into this masterpiece.
Well I got through the whole thing tonight and it's awesome cover to cover. Honestly the quality is better than most 3PPs that are selling their stuff for money. Absolutely stellar stuff, mate! Can't wait to use it.
One of my players wanted to run this conversion, but it seems really overpowered. Beguilers already got full casting in light armor with a pretty neat stable of tricks in 3.5, do you really think you need to up their power level this much?
Just Curious if you are going to post a new link with the newest stuff you have come up with. I would love to play this class as well. I created a similar character using the new Occult Class Mesmerist but I like the thought of the Beguiler more it was more in line with my thought on mental manipulation and control.
One of my players wanted to run this conversion, but it seems really overpowered. Beguilers already got full casting in light armor with a pretty neat stable of tricks in 3.5, do you really think you need to up their power level this much?
Sometimes I feel like a bit of a broken record, but you can't really compare a beguiler's 9-level casting to that of any other full caster. Because of the intensely focused spell list of the beguiler, it's not even in the same league as a wizard. You can see my earlier explanation of why that is here.
I posted my impressions of the class after extensive at-table play here. Yes it is more powerful than the 3.5 version, but that's happened with every class in the move to pathfinder. The beguiler still sits at a power level significantly below all the other full casters paizo has made and can be countered fairly easily by any number of DM tricks (mind-affecting immune enemies, pumping enemy will saves, ect.)
Ok im also curious if you are planning on submitting this to Paizo to be published or if this is an in production thing for Paizo already started by you? I noticed you have the Paizo Pathfinder pages (layout and background) and would be extremely excited if this got approved by Paizo.
And Question for ertw about Surprise Casting. Feinting can be done at range but usually only helps for melee attacks thats why its not normally done like that. in the description of Surprise casting it says "She must remain in melee with her target". But since the Beguiler can use it to affect the DC of his spells could he not do it at range and cast his spell? since by RAW in Pathfinder you can Feint at range. Im wondering if feinting could only be done in melee in 3.5 and thats why its worded that way.
This is also evidenced by the Mesmerist's Misdirection ability which says that the Mesmerist makes a Bluff check to feint for her companion. Since I doubt the mesmerist would be standing in Melee with her companion im inclined to believe that feinting can be done at range.
I know that you have in Surprise Casting that at 9th level she gains the ability to do this at range and must stay within 30ft. but again by RAW you can feint at a range so this is redundant.
sorry to repeat myself I just want to clarify. Feinting under the Bluff Skill says
"You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting in combat, see Combat."
but under Combat it says " If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn."
So its kind of confusing, but no where does it say that you must be within melee to make the Feint.
One of my players wanted to run this conversion, but it seems really overpowered. Beguilers already got full casting in light armor with a pretty neat stable of tricks in 3.5, do you really think you need to up their power level this much?
Sometimes I feel like a bit of a broken record, but you can't really compare a beguiler's 9-level casting to that of any other full caster. Because of the intensely focused spell list of the beguiler, it's not even in the same league as a wizard. You can see my earlier explanation of why that is here.
I posted my impressions of the class after extensive at-table play here. Yes it is more powerful than the 3.5 version, but that's happened with every class in the move to pathfinder. The beguiler still sits at a power level significantly below all the other full casters paizo has made and can be countered fairly easily by any number of DM tricks (mind-affecting immune enemies, pumping enemy will saves, ect.)
Hmm, I hadn't really thought about the limits on the scope of the beguiler spell list. Reading through posts earlier in the thread I can definitely see that it's actually pretty easy to shut down a beguiler if he gets too out of control. I think I will allow my player to use this conversion. Thanks for helping me change my mind, Penumbral!
Sorry about not being around for a bit, lots of other things taking my tame lately.
LT Silverstar wrote:
I'd recommend against that approach. Yes hide in plain sight is a fairly middling power for a 17th level beguiler, but it is still situationally useful. While Wise Old Man is off base claiming that the beguiler is more powerful than anything else in pathfinder (indeed it sits below most full casters in the game, both arcane and divine) it is still a fairly powerful class. At high level most of its high power goods come in the form of spells and order powers, it doesn't particularly need a powerful bump again at level 17. Take a look at the wizard and sorcerer as an example for how a class like this should evolve in high level play: the wizard gains its last school power at level 8 and only gets free metamagic feats at 10 and 15, the sorcerer's bloodline powers stop at 15 before the capstone. New spells are more than enough for a beguiler.
If you do want to do something to replace hide in plain sight, I'd recommend against giving dodge for free. Instead just give wind and lightning stances without needing to meet the prereq's. If you must have something at high level, maybe at level 17 the beguiler can extend the protections of these feats to a minute once a day.
This is really where my thinking is at WRT HiPS. Wind and Lightning Stance is an interesting idea, though.
JonathonWilder wrote:
@ertw
I wish that I could offer something more like others have, but I don't have much the confidence in homebrewing when it comes to classes. I am more of a concept/idea guy and even then when it comes t expanding on such I'm not always certain.
My thoughts of mercantile and noble orders are something I would like to see, but I am unsure what I could offer in helping you put together such orders. I give some ideas above but consideration of how to impediment them or even if they are the best angles to look for when it comes so such orders I fear is not something I can say with certainty.
Sorry for not giving you much.
That's no problem. I haven't had much time to work on beguiler stuff lately, but you've given me some ideas to work with.
Theon Redeemed wrote:
Well I got through the whole thing tonight and it's awesome cover to cover. Honestly the quality is better than most 3PPs that are selling their stuff for money. Absolutely stellar stuff, mate! Can't wait to use it.
Glad to hear you enjoy it. I'd love to hear your experiences with the class.
Alric Rahl wrote:
Just Curious if you are going to post a new link with the newest stuff you have come up with. I would love to play this class as well. I created a similar character using the new Occult Class Mesmerist but I like the thought of the Beguiler more it was more in line with my thought on mental manipulation and control.
The bitly link will always be updated to point to the most recent version of the conversion.
Alric Rahl wrote:
Ok im also curious if you are planning on submitting this to Paizo to be published or if this is an in production thing for Paizo already started by you? I noticed you have the Paizo Pathfinder pages (layout and background) and would be extremely excited if this got approved by Paizo.
This project is purely personal, I've got no intentions of submitting it to Paizo. The background and layout were all done to make the final product look good. I don't think Paizo would be interested in publishing this due to the legal issues that would likely result (AFAIK the content from PHB2 wasn't covered under the OGL).
Alric Rahl wrote:
And Question for ertw about Surprise Casting. Feinting can be done at range but usually only helps for melee attacks thats why its not normally done like that. in the description of Surprise casting it says "She must remain in melee with her target". But since the Beguiler can use it to affect the DC of his spells could he not do it at range and cast his spell? since by RAW in Pathfinder you can Feint at range. Im wondering if feinting could only be done in melee in 3.5 and thats why its worded that way.
This is also evidenced by the Mesmerist's Misdirection ability which says that the Mesmerist makes a Bluff check to feint for her companion. Since I doubt the mesmerist would be standing in Melee with her companion im inclined to believe that feinting can be done at range.
I know that you have in Surprise Casting that at 9th level she gains the ability to do this at range and must stay within 30ft. but again by RAW you can feint at a range so this is redundant.
sorry to repeat myself I just want to clarify. Feinting under the Bluff Skill says
"You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting in combat, see Combat."
but under Combat it says " If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn."
So its kind of confusing, but no where does it say that you must be within melee to make the Feint.
That is something I never really noticed, it really is confusing. I'd tend to go with the Combat section's definition of feint over the Bluff definition simply because there are certain classes/archetypes (most notably the archer fighter's trick shot ability from the APG) that make special allowances for feinting at range. I suppose that it's possible to feint and then move into melee to make an attack, but the limited range on surprise casting is meant to keep a beguiler in the thick of battle; a matter of risk vs. reward.
I might think about making the base surprise casting work within a range of 30 feet and extending that to close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) at level 9.
Barry Bluejeans wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Barry Bluejeans wrote:
One of my players wanted to run this conversion, but it seems really overpowered. Beguilers already got full casting in light armor with a pretty neat stable of tricks in 3.5, do you really think you need to up their power level this much?
Sometimes I feel like a bit of a broken record, but you can't really compare a beguiler's 9-level casting to that of any other full caster. Because of the intensely focused spell list of the beguiler, it's not even in the same league as a wizard. You can see my earlier explanation of why that is here.
I posted my impressions of the class after extensive at-table play here. Yes it is more powerful than the 3.5 version, but that's happened with every class in the move to pathfinder. The beguiler still sits at a power level significantly below all the other full casters paizo has made and can be countered fairly easily by any number of DM tricks (mind-affecting immune enemies, pumping enemy will saves, ect.)
Hmm, I hadn't really thought about the limits on the scope of the beguiler spell list. Reading through posts earlier in the thread I can definitely see that it's actually pretty easy to shut down a beguiler if he gets too out of control. I think I will allow my player to use this conversion. Thanks for helping me change my mind, Penumbral!
Glad to hear it, I hope your player enjoys the class. :D
well even combat doesn't say it has to be in melee range it just specifies your next melee attack. I feel this would be better at say a range of 10 feet at 1st, then to 20 feet at 5th and then make it close range at 9th. Because like myself some may not want to be in melee, my character concept carries no weapon at all and focuses solely on spells. So If you start it at 10 feet there is still some risk vs reward and it kinda fits with the theme of as he learns to be more of a manipulator his effective range increases.
So description would be he can make a feint in melee to affect his next attack or at a range of 10ft to cast a spell.
At 5th level he can feint at a range of 20ft to affect his target with a spell.
At 9th level the effective range changes to close (25ft + 5ft/2 levels)
well even combat doesn't say it has to be in melee range it just specifies your next melee attack. I feel this would be better at say a range of 10 feet at 1st, then to 20 feet at 5th and then make it close range at 9th. Because like myself some may not want to be in melee, my character concept carries no weapon at all and focuses solely on spells. So If you start it at 10 feet there is still some risk vs reward and it kinda fits with the theme of as he learns to be more of a manipulator his effective range increases.
So description would be he can make a feint in melee to affect his next attack or at a range of 10ft to cast a spell.
At 5th level he can feint at a range of 20ft to affect his target with a spell.
At 9th level the effective range changes to close (25ft + 5ft/2 levels)
I've updated the wording on surprise casting to:
Surprise Casting:
Surprise Casting (Ex): When a beguiler successfully uses the Bluff skill to feint in combat, her target is denied its Dexterity bonus (if it has one) to AC for the next melee attack she makes against it, or the next beguiler spell she casts on it before the end of her next turn; this advantage ends if she and her target become separated by 30 feet. The target is not considered flat-footed and therefore can make attacks of opportunity against her if she does not cast defensively.
At 9th level, the range within which a beguiler must remain in order to deny her target its Dexterity bonus (if it has one) to AC for the next spell she casts is extended to close range (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels).
well even combat doesn't say it has to be in melee range it just specifies your next melee attack. I feel this would be better at say a range of 10 feet at 1st, then to 20 feet at 5th and then make it close range at 9th. Because like myself some may not want to be in melee, my character concept carries no weapon at all and focuses solely on spells. So If you start it at 10 feet there is still some risk vs reward and it kinda fits with the theme of as he learns to be more of a manipulator his effective range increases.
So description would be he can make a feint in melee to affect his next attack or at a range of 10ft to cast a spell.
At 5th level he can feint at a range of 20ft to affect his target with a spell.
At 9th level the effective range changes to close (25ft + 5ft/2 levels)
I've updated the wording on surprise casting to:
** spoiler omitted **
That seems pretty reasonable, 30 feet keeps you well within combat distance and the range becomes less and less critical as the action required to feint is diminished.
I already tried that and it still had the old wording for that ability.
I've found in the past that sometimes google drive can be a bit funky about not reloading updated documents, try opening the link in a private window or clearing your browser history.
I already tried that and it still had the old wording for that ability.
I've found in the past that sometimes google drive can be a bit funky about not reloading updated documents, try opening the link in a private window or clearing your browser history.
I've been thinking recently about the PrCs from the BotIS document and I'm getting a better feel for what you're trying to do with them, but I can't shake the feeling that a third PrC might put it into better perspective. I don't really have a flushed out concept in mind, but the basic idea would be a 1/2 BAB class with a stronger focus on casting. Not sure what you might do with that, but thought I would put it out there.
I've been thinking recently about the PrCs from the BotIS document and I'm getting a better feel for what you're trying to do with them, but I can't shake the feeling that a third PrC might put it into better perspective. I don't really have a flushed out concept in mind, but the basic idea would be a 1/2 BAB class with a stronger focus on casting. Not sure what you might do with that, but thought I would put it out there.
That's something I hadn't considered. It's an interesting idea, I'll have to give it some thought to figure out what kind of focus such a class would have.
I've been thinking about it a bit more and I think that it might work well as a kind of spy-master class (the keepers of the beguilers's secrets). Bonuses to knowledge skills (think bardic knowledge), access to extra divination magic, maybe some stuff borrowed from the master spy PrC.
I've been thinking about it a bit more and I think that it might work well as a kind of spy-master class (the keepers of the beguilers's secrets). Bonuses to knowledge skills (think bardic knowledge), access to extra divination magic, maybe some stuff borrowed from the master spy PrC.
*scratches chin toughtfully* I might be able to work with that.
If you're still looking for ideas, you could make a beguiler who focuses on using illusions to provoke and escalate fear effects for the half BAB prestige class.
If you're still looking for ideas, you could make a beguiler who focuses on using illusions to provoke and escalate fear effects for the half BAB prestige class.
I'm a little weary as escalating fear builds as they can be incredibly effective at locking down enemies in combat; if it's keyed off a beguiler's illusion spells that could potentially be way too powerful.
It might work well as an archetype/order, but there would have to be significant limits and trade-offs, but I'm just not sure there's enough sacrifice in a 10 level PrC to justify that kind of power.
