SylverFox's page

a couple of new magic items: the extradimensional anchor and impostor's cufflinks.

I really like these two items. The anchor is an excellent alternative to permanency for a beguiler on the move and I can think of many really cool uses for the cufflinks that really fit the flavor of the counterfeit blood.

While on door duty this Halloween I had an idea pop into my head, a baleful shadow focused archetype that mirrors the old spellwarp sniper. I still need to sit down and flesh out all the details, but I'd like to get a feeling about whether or not people would be interested in such an archetype.

The baleful shadow always felt like it was brushing against the spellwarp sniper to me, so I'd say this would probably be a great fit. Likely you'd only have to replace the 1st and 13th level order powers to make it work, too.

I just had an idea for a potential replacement for aura of indiscretion that wouldn't be as potentially problematic with the new CC progression. What if you gave them an aura power akin to the antipaladin's aura of cowardice that broke immunity to mind affecting spells. That would help mitigate the potential save stacking and simultaneously cancel out one of the beguiler's greatest weaknesses.

That said, the increase to save DCs was (on a gut level, at the very least) the hardest of these provisional changes for me to swallow. As always I value your input and would love to hear from others about whether they think the increased save DCs are too much.

I'm on the fence about whether it's too much, but you could always offer the old progression as a variant rule. Or even the new progression for that matter.

I also really like the new archetype. It has a very good mix of ninja and beguiler abilities. One issue I see is with the new artifact: it seems like a single user could continuously use the stone to move as many people or items through the gate simply by continuously walking back and forth between them. You might want to put a cooldown of a few hours (maybe days) to prevent a situation where you would only really need one or two Heimdall-style gatekeepers to disrupt the need for a passage.

Usually a 'variant' or prestige class to a class bring about some good and some bad things. It requires a choice of what you want to gain and what you are willing to give away. So I'd expect that these Orders works the same way.

But as it stand now, they only bring something extra: on the mellow side it's an extra 'option' that has good and bad side to it. But an extra option in itself is extra flexibility, so still extra power. On the stronger side these extra's are truly extra powers, that will increase the power of te character/Beguiler.
I think this will only give unwanted discussion, since in itself the Beguiler Class (as you made it) is a balanced modification that deserves its place in all PF games. By making the Beguiler stronger with Orders, its succes might mean its downfall.

Or am I missing something?

The orders don't trade out powers because they're not archetypes or variants, they're character options. Think of them like a sorcerer's bloodline. In my game I've found the orders a vital part of bringing the beguiler into the fold of pathfinder's internal balance where sorcerers have their bloodlines and wizards have their school powers.

The current thing I've had rolling around in my mind is a Tian Xia flavoured beguiler order trading on the continent's ninja traditions (for the BotIS document). I'm having trouble hammering down a sequence of order powers that I really like for it, so I figured I might as well open the floor to any suggestions to see if I can find a direction that really grabs me. What would you like to see out of a ninja themed beguiler order?

I love this idea. The most obvious option to me seems like poaching abilities from the ninja class itself. Stuff like the ki pool and ninja talents seem ripe for the picking. You might want to look at Everyman Gaming's unchained ninja or Dreamscarred Press's stalker for more inspiration.

Well if people are satisfied with the shape of the capricious professional, I can write it up and push it out some time in the next week or so. A question to the thread: do you think it belongs in the main conversion document or BotIS? My gut says BotIS because its versatility may make it more powerful than most beguiler options, but I'd like to hear others' opinions on the matter.

Unless you have a setting specific reason to put it in BotIS, I'd keep in in the beguiler conversion proper. This isn't a huge power level bump (I'd say it looks more like a sidegrade personally) so there's no real reason not to give the archetype as much exposure as you can.

How does sorcerous dabbler work for spells with a casting time greater than a minute?

That sounds like a really fun idea, GreenGrapes.

Ooo exciting! I can't wait to go over everything. I just read over the artifact and it sounds really cool. One thing I did notice is that it seems to be missing one of the deadly sins (there's only six tokens, but seven deadly sins).

That looks great. I like that you included the mage armor option so that the item isn't rendered pointless by spellcasting before it can be enchanted. My only question is can this summon armor made of materials like cloth or leather?

Awesome! Hope to hear from you soon.

Sorry to be a bug again, but I was wondering if you had seen Drop Dead Studios's new product called Spheres of Might? While I was flipping through it recently I came across a feat called Zodiac Etchings that made me think of the beguiler. Basically the feat lets you tattoo your body giving you what is effectively +1 leather armor. It seems to me that a similar ability tying into the Shadowgraft Skirmisher archetype could be interesting. Just wanted to put this out there and see what you thought.

SylverFox wrote:

SylverFox wrote:

Glad to see this project isn't dead, even if it is a little dormant. My group has been on hiatus between campaigns for the past few months, but lately I've been itching to put together one of those gun toting beguilers you mentioned months ago.

Did this archetype/order get the axe? I haven't seen anything about it for nearly a year and I was really looking forward to it.

I'm still intending to complete the BotIS update, but between work, family, and my campaign I haven't had a lot of spare time to work on beguiler related things.

That's disappointing, but understandible. Thanks for responding.

Glad to see this project isn't dead, even if it is a little dormant. My group has been on hiatus between campaigns for the past few months, but lately I've been itching to put together one of those gun toting beguilers you mentioned months ago.

Did this archetype/order get the axe? I haven't seen anything about it for nearly a year and I was really looking forward to it.

SylverFox wrote:

If homebrew is on the table, I suggest you take a look at Ertw's beguiler from the conversion board, which has an option for an int-based bard archetype.

All of that is awesome. Thank you.

Glad I could help out!

If homebrew is on the table, I suggest you take a look at Ertw's beguiler from the conversion board, which has an option for an int-based bard archetype.

Changed the ritual blade feat into sleight of blade to make it a little more versatile for TWF beguilers. In particular, the new version of this feat allows beguilers with a light weapon in their off hand to treat it as if that had were free to open access to feats like Slashing Grace. My reasoning behind this is that TWF beguilers are already feat-taxed enough as is, so opening up their options a little more will help such builds get off the ground at reasonable levels.[/list]

Haven't had a chance yet to look over most of the changes but this one interests me most. I definitely agree with you that two-weapon styles are way too feat dependent, especially for classes that don't get bonus feats every two or three levels. I still wonder if treating the off hand as a free hand might be a bit too permissive. As written I could potentially two-weapon fight with a greatsword wielded in both hands and a dagger in my off hand simultaneously. That doesn't really make much sense to me.

Ertw, it seems like you've softened a bit on the matter of letting other classes have limited access to beguiler class features. Do you think you'd reconsider things like JammyPanda's VMC suggestion or an improved/greater eldritch heritage equivalent for guild apprenticeship?

I think this would be pretty reasonable, especially now that the order powers that were the primary concern are now accessible via these new templates.

And now, here is my first draft for the beguiler class templates:

Really great work here, Ertw! I'll give brief comments on each template:

Deceptive Acolyte
This is a really cool idea and I love the fact that the fluff ties them to the guild by way of contracted out healers. This is one of the less involved templates, but it still packs a punch. Giving clerics and druids access to the whole beguiler spell list is really powerful, but you've done a good job offsetting that by pushing them into a spontaneous casting shell. It's nice to see a spontaneous casting charisma based druid option after we were all let down by the feyspeaker archetype. One question: you mention that the druid loses their ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally, but does a cleric lose the ability to spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells?

Ghastly Enforcer
This is 100% the slayer archetype I was hoping for when I mentioned it as a possibility. It's the stygian slayer we should have got and then some. The ciphered tome was such a great idea since it adds both flavor to the archetype as well as explains why wizards can't just use it to steal beguiler spells. I'm glad you decided to keep the harbinger in this, but kind of disappointed that sorcerous deception got dropped. It seems like such a good fit for this kind of class, but I guess I can't have my cake and eat it too.

Guild Envoy
I'm having trouble pinning this one down in terms of power level. The addition of beguiler spells to the wizard spell list isn't that big of a deal, most spells were already there, but cloaked casting applied to all spells is huge. Artful invocation only applying to beguiler spells is probably a good idea, but it kind of renders spectacular casting a little inert since there aren't any of the shadow evocation-type spells on the main beguiler list (come to think of it, are there any in the arcane hand's order spells?). The dread spellcasting is cool, but why even make them into spellcasters instead of just letting them pick up a beguiler spell as a dread power?

Stygian Saboteur
I was just riffing when suggested the alchemist idea, but I like what you've done with it. Most of what's here can probably be pseudo-replicated by alchemist discoveries and the bomber rogue talent, but it's a fun thematic option for a mad-scientist beguiler-type.

Trickster Operative
This is a fun one. Like the ghastly enforcer is to the stygian slayer, the trickster operative is to the eldritch scoundrel. I was always so mad that the ES had to give up its armored casting (which every other 6th level caster had). I really like how each class kind of ends up in its own niche. The rogue has the best sneak attack, the bard has the best spellcasting, and the vigilante has the best talents. I agree with JW about being sad to lose bardic knowledge, but I can see your point about them being the skillmonkey to end all skillmonkeys if you left it in.

Hope these comments are useful to you. Thank you for putting in so much work on this project, the care and attention that you put into it really shows through the fact that the quality has remained so high for so long. Great job!

Really pumped for these options, especially the enforcer and acolyte.

SylverFox wrote:

JHeats wrote:

Oh and if you do a harbinger archetype, please please please make charisma its initiating ability.

LOL seconded!

Am I missing a joke here? I was leaning towards including the harbinger with the slayer and fighter which would gain 4-level Int based prepared casting.

Piggybacking on what JHeats said, a Cha-based harbinger makes more sense as PoW:E lays the class out. I actually think a beguiler archetype for the harbinger makes a lot of sense as an Int-based caster like you're suggesting.

Oh and if you do a harbinger archetype, please please please make charisma its initiating ability.

LOL seconded!

I do have some thoughts for wizard and cleric options.

Cleric seems a strange choice, but I'm kind of excited to see what you do with it.

Alchemist is one I hadn't considered. I'll have to think on the best way to incorporate that idea.

You can't go wrong with poisons thematically (even if they're not typically very strong in the mid or late game). Maybe something like the Gloom Chymist's gloom bombs, but triggering an effect like shatterglass or witchfire. I figured with your new flair for alchemical mixtures you might have some good ideas.

Mesmerist I'm not crazy about simply because of the tendency for overlap between the two classes.

I guess I can see that.

I'm on the fence about these options. I'm not super familiar with the psionics and Path of War subsystems, so it might be hard for me to balance. I'm also a little wary of building around other third party properties; some players may have trouble convincing their GMs to allow the beguiler because it's homebrew and adding other 3PPs into the mix won't necessarily make it easier. I'll still keep it in mind, but I won't guarantee anything.

As long as you're posting ideas here or playtesting them, I think plenty of people would be willing to help you with any balance concerns you have. As for stacking homebrew and 3PPs, as long as it's an optional rule and not an integral part of the conversion I don't think many people would have problems just saying yes to the beguiler but no to the initiating or manifesting options (or even no to the whole template system).

ertw wrote:

On another subject: I've been considering adding a series of templates akin to those from Path of War to the variant rules section to give beguiler-like options to existing classes. I have a vague idea of which classes I'd like to include, but I'd like some input from people here:

What kind of classes would you like to see get some beguiler-like options? What kind of options/features would you like to see exported in this way?

Definitely the slayer and rogue. You could use the stygian slayer and eldritch scoundrel archetypes as a base as both are pretty interesting ideas that were IMHO poorly executed. Features would definitely include spellcasting (4th level casting for slayer, 6th level casting for rogue) and maybe access to order powers coming into effect at a reduced rate.

I agree these two definitely need to be in there. IIRC I suggested a potential slayer archetype in this thread a while ago, but nothing ever came of it. As for other options that might be less obvious: an alchemist/investigator archetype could be pretty interesting, you could do something with another arcane class to teach them some of your beguiler tricks (though you might want to stay away from spontaneous casters since their innate magic might be hard to gel with beguiler training and modification), mesmerist seems like an obvious one. If you're willing to go more afield into DSP's portfolio, I'd love to see your take on a beguiler inspired dread, harbinger or stalker.

I'd recommend you take a look at this homebrew beguiler conversion, there are some neat feat options in there your gm might allow.

Love, love, LOVE witchfire essence! I love the idea of creating chaos by throwing a bottle of invisible fire through the window of my enemy's hideout.

Social status is a cool tool for a theugic brigand in an urban campaign and would probably make her a great asset to a theif-based party by giving them a legitimate face.

Pidgin adept sounds really cool. Maybe something interesting in a seafaring-type campaign when setting up trade in new lands filled with foreign cultures.

I like the tradeoffs of artful invocation, they basically let you tailor your spellcasting to the situation and the ability to learn spells for the long term with spell mimic definitely pulls up the power level of the Arcane Hand due to massively increased versatility.

Overall I really like the changes and I'm really excited to see your new ideas based on JammyPanda's ideas.

I'm dropping in to announce that I've updated the main conversion document. This update doesn't include the changes for the arcane hand or theurgic brigand, but does have some minor tuning for the elusive wildling (in light of Paizo's feyspeaker druid archetype)

I get the increase of the skills per level, but what prompted the change from summon nature's ally to witch patrons?

as well as a new series of variant rules for a few items that people have consistently complained about regarding my conversion including options for returning the beguiler to an all spells known casting mechanic (with significantly shortened spell list) and options for beguilers that don't require the organization of the beguilers' guild.

This is very cool, I know I've seen people complaining about those aspects of your conversion fairly often and now there's a solution! I really like that you've left a lot of the different factors open to interpretation, so a player and DM can work things out together to really allow people to tune these changes to their own personal tastes.

One thing I'd say is that your claim that the all spells known spellcasting option renders the savvy preparation ability useless isn't 100% accurate. Even with full knowledge of your spell list, you could still technically use savvy preparation to prepare some spells with metamagic baked in. Unless you intend to remove savvy preparation completely for that system, I'd reword that sentence to mention the metamagic options.

Apparently I'm still a kid underneath it all, because I only jumper in here to get the 666th post.

LOL I think I'm still a kid too :P

A few days ago the topic came up on /pfg/ of how you could make the mesmer from Guild Wars 2 in pathfinder and I suggested that this conversion might make a good baseline for it. For those unfamiliar the mesmer specializes in using illusions both offensively and defensively. I put together a basic outline and I was hoping to get some thoughts:

Order of the Shattered Looking Glass

1st level order power would grant a mirror image-like spell-like ability (useable 3+Int times per day), but as he leveled up they would become more "real." The Beguiler would get +1 to attack and damage rolls which would increase by +1 at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 (like a Slayer's studied target). Maybe this bonus would have a maximum equal to the number of images present.

7th level order power would allow the beguiler to shatter any number of these images as a swift action to do a fixed amount of damage to everybody the Beguiler threatens (Reflex for half). Maybe at higher levels it could impose a negative condition on those in the area instead of the damage.

13th level order power would allow some of the images to actually make attacks. One attack at Beguiler's highest BAB at 13th level, a second attack at highest BAB-5 at 16th level (as long as two images exist), a third attack at highest BAB-10 at 19th level (as long as three images exist).

Not sure about the capstone order power yet.

Would this idea be interesting to anybody?

This is an intriguing idea, even though the shadowgraft skirmisher kind of touches on the idea of using illusions offensively but your concept is pretty unique. I especially like the shatter ability. I think it might work better as an archetype rather than an order because the more martially minded beguiler options typically use the diminished spellcasting feature to balance it out.

For the capstone, I'd suggest something like making one of the illusions permanent giving it its own set of iterative attacks that mirror your own.

I was wondering if you would be alright with me co-opting the term flurry of blades you coined in Secret Wizard's racial archetypes thread as part of the archetype?

Absolutely feel free to use it.

Glad to see this project isn't dead, even if it is a little dormant. My group has been on hiatus between campaigns for the past few months, but lately I've been itching to put together one of those gun toting beguilers you mentioned months ago.

SylverFox wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

Mesmerist- I like this class, it's like the spiritual successor of the beguiler but much more interesting. I really love it's hypnotic stare and touch treatment abilities.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. The mesmerist really misses the feel of the beguiler, but that's not an issue because the mesmerist was meant to be its own thing. If you're looking for something that fully embodies the spirit of the beguiler check out this conversion, it's incredibly fun to play.

That link doesn't work . . . .

That's quite odd, it was working when I posted the message. This link should be working.

Mesmerist- I like this class, it's like the spiritual successor of the beguiler but much more interesting. I really love it's hypnotic stare and touch treatment abilities.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. The mesmerist really misses the feel of the beguiler, but that's not an issue because the mesmerist was meant to be its own thing. If you're looking for something that fully embodies the spirit of the beguiler check out this conversion, it's incredibly fun to play.

We have been using these rules, but not for very long. Haven't run into a trouble with them yet. In all honesty, even if it did severely increase the power of a martial character they'd still be trailing far behind your tier 1 casters, so my party doesn't particularly have qualms about giving martials nice things.

I'd be more worried about giving wizards and sorcerers access to even more tools that synergize too well with their casting abilities (especially with orders like wandering heart or counterfeit blood). After all, casters have less use for feats than martial characters and so are less penalized for taking a VMC.

I like the story for the Vilderavn's Court, but why is the guild as a whole afraid of a single CR 16 creature? Even the leader of that guild (being a 18th level beguiler) should be able to take it down one-on-one.

The kickass fey thing from the latest bestiary.

Link

SylverFox wrote:

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

ertw wrote:

The basic idea is that there is a powerful fey creature in Nidal that's posing as a member of the Umbral Court

Is... is it a Vilderavn?

What's a vilderavn?

As Kryzbyn pointed out it's a very cool fey creature from bestiary 5. It seems like it's gained a lot of popularity in the past few weeks in the pathfinder thread on /tg/ as an exciting new alternative to the boring old lich-as-big-bad trope.

That's really neat, I hadn't seen that creature before. It definitely seems like a good villain creature.

ertw wrote:

The basic idea is that there is a powerful fey creature in Nidal that's posing as a member of the Umbral Court

Is... is it a Vilderavn?

What's a vilderavn?

Any update on the new archetype? It's been a month since we last heard anything.

Hi Ertw,

I've been a big fan of your beguiler for a while now. I put together some VMC rules for the beguiler that my group plays with and just wanted to get your comments and criticisms.

I know ertw has mentioned earlier that he's not fond of the idea of allowing access to higher level order powers through methods other than taking those levels in beguiler, so the 11th and 19th level VMC features might not be to his liking.

I'm not crazy about firearms in my fantasy gaming in general, so I probably wouldn't end up using that. It might be an interesting option to give the character a choice: they can either be a traditionalist who wields a scimitar (I assume this is what you're referring to when you mention Kelishite weapons) as her desert dwelling forefathers did, or a revolutionary who has adapted to her new home and its technology.

I wasn't even thinking about the action economy angle, you guys are definitely right it would be really overboard.

I feel like it might be an interesting option to give both beguiler and eidolon a sneak attack with smaller damage dice (something like a d4) to give them a sort of flurry style attack while flanking. If the two aren't split up, they can use the regular d6 damage.

That sounds really cool. Since you mention the eidolon as a flanking partner, are we to assume it has some kind of sneak attack?

ertw wrote:

Not quite, but you'll have to wait to see how.

EVIL

I'm inclined to agree with Penumbral here.

I'd recommend taking a look at the baleful shadow order from Ertw's Beguiler conversion. I've found it's pretty effective at the arcane trickster's milieu.

That's odd. Last night as I was going to bed I saw a new post by ertw in this thread. Now that I've gotten home from work all I'm seeing is a post from Wednesday night. Anybody know what's going on?

Any ETA on the beguilers of the inner seas changes?

Hellknight Deceiver is still great, I love the way you made the assiduous gaze an optional power. I'm really torn on the Scarred Mourner. I love the flavor of the class, but so much of the mechanics seems just a bit off. I agree with Penumbral that the curse seems like an unnecessary punishment. It might work better if it only affected her while she wore her mask. The archetype also seems way too MAD: it needs Con for spells and dancing, Dex and Int for AC, and Cha to make perform (dance) checks. I feel like one of these needs to be dropped, maybe use acrobatics checks instead dance checks for attacks? The other issue I see is that the archetype loses armor, but none of its class features (other than canny defense and spells) are called out as being hindered by wearing armor. I would have figured that the dance at the very least would be difficult or impossible to do while wearing heavier armor.

Kryzbyn wrote:

Dwarven beguiler!

Hobgoblin beguiler!

I think my personal favorite would be either a Lizardfolk or Werecroc Skinwalker beguiler.

Just to add to the voices in favor of con casting, another point to consider is that there are not very many races that have a racial bonus to con (certainly a lot less than those with bonuses to int), but a lot of options with penalties to con. That really limits what you can do with a con caster.