LT Silverstar's page

The changes to the Tomebound archetype make it pretty powerful, probably more powerful than any of the other option the beguiler gets. That said, I do like that the power is gated behind the dual ability dependence (Int and Cha) and that probably will keep it from getting out of hand.

I'd say the update on the whole is ready to go, great work.

I looked over the changes and they all look pretty good. I really like what you did with morithil, it's a neat flavor idea without too much mechanical benefit.

I look forward to seeing your ideas, ertw.

Another point I forgot to make in my last post: had you considered making the Whispering Initiate a psychic caster (Occult Adventures) rather than an arcane caster? It might give the archetype some more PC-friendly options and flavor.

Updated conversion document, 2 year anniversary edition with two new orders and three new archetypes can be found here:

bit.ly/pathfinderbeguiler

Sorry it took so long, but I've finally got around to compiling my thoughts on the new options here:

• Counterfeit Blood: It's hard for me to decide whether this new order or the Shadowgraft Skirmisher are my favorite additions to the class. CB is full of flavor, its powers are unique and exciting (even though they are more suited to an intrigue game than a combat game). Absolutely perfect.
  
• Ghastly Claw: I never particularly cared for the Spell Kill ability, I think Malicious Maneuvers is a pretty good replacement power. The wording about feat qualification seems a bit clunky, I wonder if it might be better served by granting them the benefits of the Dirty Fighting feat which is basically the same thing.
  
• Petrified Mind: Not really my cup of tea, but still an interesting option for an intimidate build. Probably synergizes well with something like a few levels slayer or anti-paladin, haven't really theorycrafted that to completion, but you'd still be giving up beguiler spellcasting for that so it seems a fair trade. Does the Daunting Illusion ability pertain to illusions that are purely sonic in nature like ghost sound? If so you might want to change the last line of the ability to match that. I like the way that the Creeping Fear ability is stepped which will prevent a simple 7 level beguiler dip being used to make a super powered lockdown build. Typo note: you've got their 3rd level order spell listed as "REPLACE", I'm guessing that was a note to yourself that made it through the editing process.
  
• Shadowgraft Skirmisher: As I mentioned this is a favorite addition of mine. It's a very cool take on the Stygian Skirmisher PrC from the Inner Seas Beguilers document. I love the flavor and mechanics of the Shadowblade, IMHO it's a much better implementation than Paizo's recent release of Shadowcraft Weapons from Blood of Shadows. One big question I have is: how does the Shadowblade interact with Wraith Strike? It seems like a perfect opportunity for use of the d6 damage dice instead of d4s, but as written it wouldn't gain this benefit. Maybe you can say it's treated as if it were made of a special material like umbrite and add umbrite weapons to the list of things that advance Wraith Strike's damage dice? It also seems to me that taking a full round action to change the type of an already summoned weapon is a bit prohibitive (especially since it's already keying on Weapon Focus as a feat tax), maybe the ability to decrease the change time as a move/swift action could be added at the cost of a few arcane pool points? Another thematic option I had thought of for Umbral Sorcery was an option to spend arcane pool points to charge and full attack like the Swordmaster Rogue's Tiger Trance (particularly because this is meant to be a more martial beguiler).
  
• Tomebound Beguiler: An interesting option for those who want to go guild-less. I like the pseudo-spellbook of the tome, but I think the spellcasting ends up a little wonky because it's mixing the standard sorcerer progression with a lot of savvy preparation. I'd recommend just outright giving this archetype Arcanist spellcasting which will result in the same more breadth at the cost of decreased spell slots mentality. If you're still restricting the spell list, that kind of casting doesn't seem particularly unbalancing. Beguiling Strike is kind of a fun antipode to the Magus' Spell Combat. Adept Beguiler seems like a bit of a let down in terms of a capstone for the archetype, but I'm not sure what you could do there. Typo note: in the Beguiling Strike ability, you have an unmatched closing bracket at the end of the sentence about the spell's reduced range.
  
• Whispering Initiate: I don't 100% have a feel for this archetype. It seems like more of a NPC class than a PC class (as others have said). I suppose it has its niche in an intrigue-based game, but this really doesn't grab me the same way that a Wandering Heart beguiler would for that purpose. As others have stated, the strong scrying focus is a tad odd for PCs. I wonder if adding enchantment/mind-affecting spells to Piercing Gaze might give the archetype a bit more heft as more than a scrying master.

Sorry Mark hasn't been able to get back to you, it's our end of term crush at school. He's asked me to pass our comments along about the counterfeit blood beguiler. We all loved the idea and flavor of the order, very cool albeit a little situational.

Alter ego: Why is this limited to nobility? I could definitely see situations where it might be more appropriate to infiltrate by pretending to be a servant/cook/etc.

Polymorphic facade: Really love this ability. The real centerpiece of the order.

Resistant facade: I really like the idea behind this, but the language feels a bit clunky. Phrases like "see through her polymorphic facade" seem like they leave a lot of room for interpretation. Immunity to trueseeing is pretty powerful, but at level 19 I think it works well.

Paragon's aspect: Another really cool power. We really appreciated the penalty to those that fail their save in the aura instead of the typical luck bonus.

Overall it's really great stuff and with those few tweaks we think it'd be an awesome addition to your beguiler.

I'd recommend against that approach. Yes hide in plain sight is a fairly middling power for a 17th level beguiler, but it is still situationally useful. While Wise Old Man is off base claiming that the beguiler is more powerful than anything else in pathfinder (indeed it sits below most full casters in the game, both arcane and divine) it is still a fairly powerful class. At high level most of its high power goods come in the form of spells and order powers, it doesn't particularly need a powerful bump again at level 17. Take a look at the wizard and sorcerer as an example for how a class like this should evolve in high level play: the wizard gains its last school power at level 8 and only gets free metamagic feats at 10 and 15, the sorcerer's bloodline powers stop at 15 before the capstone. New spells are more than enough for a beguiler.

If you do want to do something to replace hide in plain sight, I'd recommend against giving dodge for free. Instead just give wind and lightning stances without needing to meet the prereq's. If you must have something at high level, maybe at level 17 the beguiler can extend the protections of these feats to a minute once a day.

I'd recommend giving them both slots. Given their inclusion in the spells known by level table I'd say they're fully a part of the beguiler's spellcasting.

Honestly, I don't see the value in taking levels in arcane trickster. Your BAB craps out with the slow progression and you miss out on the high level beguiler powers. In return for giving up superb protections offered by the aspect of mastery and the ability for cloaked casting to cut through SR you end up with what? Sneak attack damage on area of effect spells through shadow evocation (typically a will save on top of a reflex save; not worth it to me since reflex saves are the most common good saves in the game). Sure 7d6 extra damage to anybody in the fireball's area is exciting, but I'd rather be doing 5d6 extra damage on an intensified scorching ray that cuts through spell resistance.

I really feel like PrCs are a trap for this class, the endgame is just too tempting and anything that doesn't grant full casting really slows the class down. With the new stygian step this class is already verging on what everybody wants to do with their shadowdancer, it can out death attack an assassin (although what can't?), and wraith strike combined with cloaked casting beats the arcane trickster/beguiler mix out of the water IMHO. If you want to run an arcane trickster you can still do the very common build: wizard (teleportation sub-school) 3 + 2 classes that grant sneak attack dice (the new brawler archetype snakebite striker is great for this since it has full BAB) + arcane trickster 10 + wizard X; with the most powerful 9th level casting in the game, that build would still be able to blow a fully specced out beguiler out of the water.

While it's definitely not an optimized build, it can be a useful setup for roleplaying. In fact, I could see this beguiler working for most of the PrCs it would qualify for. It's not necessarily going to be the strongest build, but it can add even more fun flavor to an already pretty interesting class.

Mark pointed me back here telling me you've made some changes to the conversion. While I'm sad you've departed from the old standby of the class knowing all its spells, I can definitely understand your reasoning for doing so. The new spell list looks really neat and I'd still look forward to seeing what kind of spells known my players would build up. One thing I would beg of you is to add mage hand to the spell list. From the beginning this class was one that cried out to be paired with the arcane trickster PrC and the only thing holding them back is that one spell not being on their list. Before this expanded spell list, I could see the reasoning for keeping mage hand off the list, but now it seems like it would be a simple add that would be well within the themes of the class.

I absolutely adore the new concept for the baleful shadow order. The order powers from old version really did seem like it wasn't anywhere near as unique as the other groups. That said, I think there are some things that could stand to be cleaned up a little and clarified:

• Stygian step is really interesting. I think you definitely hit on a good point about the lighting conditions to prevent multiclassing shenanigans. Honestly you could drop this limitation at 5th level (the second time there's no BAB bump) and it'd hold off the martial dips. However, when I first read the fluff sentence I had a bit of a different picture for the idea than the crunch bore out. What I had in mind was more akin to being under the protection of a blink spell for the duration of their move action. This provides similar protections against AOOs while also letting them blink through walls and such. Maybe at 9th level you could let them spend two uses to become incorporeal for that move action. You also don't really need the text about not granting new forms of movement as it's only ethereal creatures that gain the "any direction glide" movement, not blinking nor incorporeal creatures.
  
• As I had suggested earlier, the arcane trickster really goes well with this order. I would be nice if wraith strike counted as a sneak attack for the purposes of qualifying for feats and PrCs so you could theoretically build a beguiler 10/arcane trickster 10 without having to waste 3 levels multiclassing in rogue to qualify.
  
• I like both the shadow tricks and peerless tricks. Very cool ways to customize your stygian step. One thing I'd like some more clarification on is whether or not stygian jump qualifies a beguiler to take the dimenional agility feat chain. If not it seems like it has relatively little worth, particularly since you can get it for free with dimensional step; if so it would have significant worth and might even be worthwhile to combine with dimensional step.
  
• I'd definitely back a change to the aspect of mastery to treat concealment and perception as if her space were one step darker.

The quality of your work continues to astound me and I must say it has been a pleasure to help you craft this class.

Another thing I noticed when I was looking through the warmage equipment: the variant thunderstones that apply combat maneuvers to opponents seem a bit wonky. I assume you want these items to be roughly equivalent to the thunderstone, but the DC for that effect is 15 while these stones make attacks with a CMB of 20. The rule of thumb that I use is that a DC is roughly equivalent to a CMB which is two lower (ex. if the DC is 15, the CMB should be 13). Those numbers provide a well suited opponent roughly equal chance to save against the effect or avoid the attack. A CMB of 20 just seems too high, IMHO.

I agree with Ciaran that the arcane blast still needs to be dialed back a bit. Dropping the damage die to a d8 would put it a little behind the knife master rogue's sneak attack in terms of DPR (which works well with a flanking partner), but I think this ability might work better: put a cool down on it, make it usable once every 1d4 rounds like a dragon's breath weapon. As a result it gets used probably 2-4 times in a given encounter and its damage won't be overbearing.

Some other thoughts I had: You could use some clarification as to whether or not an evolved arcane blast still requires a touch attack. While ref save spells don't usually need an attack roll, there's nothing to indicate if one is still needed. Warmage's edge could use further clarification, too. How does it interact with crits (that's still an issue with spells that require an attack roll as a 20/x2 crit threat)? Is the damage still applied on a save for half damage spell?

I think a lot of the points I would have made about the warmage have already been made so I'll cut ahead to the two issues I see.

1) Energy substitution is indeed an exciting option, but I think you've gone a bit broad on its scope. As an example of what I mean: what happens when you use it to change the descriptor of a light spell to fire? Does it become a damaging thing? Does it cause objects it's cast upon to burst into flames? To me the heading of all evocations and abjurations seems to be too big of a tent for this ability. I'd suggest maybe limiting its scope to spells from those schools that deal damage of one of the four energy types.

2) I worry a little about the favored class options for the half-elemental races (ifrits, oreads, sylphs and undines). An extra 2d10 damage could be really punishing, especially since arcane blast can be used alongside weapons during a full attack (an option I'm also a bit weary of even at 8d10 max damage). Imagine a level 20 oread dishing out a maximized blast of 100 damage (plus warmage edge) to a cone of enemies (that cuts through spell resistance) and then following up with weapon damage. That seems a bit OP to me, but I do like the idea that these four races would excel as warmages.

I would probably be a little better with this bump if the arcane blast was just a standard action that couldn't be used as part of a full attack. Maybe the ability to use it multiple times could be saved for rolling thunder (since they tend to target significantly less targets with their blast) in lieu of their warmage edge applying to everybody (or maybe just the two first targets, not on ricochets).

Otherwise I generally agree with the sentiment here. I agree that the spell list is too big and could be paired down a bit. Elemental languages would be great. I like the idea Penumbral Shadow had with respect to heavy armor and evasion; it's an interesting idea to make the warmage choose between being an arcane tank (with heavy armor, but at the cost of evasion) or a mobile caster (with evasion, but at the cost of heavy armor). The elemental-type immunities are an interesting choice for the capstone, but I think that the elemental aura StealthDiabeetis mentioned would be more thematically relevant.

One thing I just thought about while reading SD's mention about alignment. There's some elements that are more chaotic (air-fire) and some that are more lawful (earth-water) if that makes sense. I wonder if maybe the favored->neutral->opposed structure could turn into a favored->attuned->neutral->opposed structure (ex. for fire that would go fire->air->earth->water). This could make energy substitution more interesting as you could start with favored and attuned, then give neutral, then they finally get opposed with the level 18 power that lets them do everything.

For an archetype, the only thing that pops into mind is a positive/negative energy blaster, but that might end up looking a bit too much like a cleric.

I'm glad you're enjoying my work. I hadn't thought about converting the warmage and dread necromancer, but I may give it a shot when this conversion is put to bed.

You've got a good framework to build these other two classes on with this beguiler conversion. Surprise and cloaked casting get replaced with two synergistic powers for the warmage/dread necro and the orders turn into different paths for each of them (maybe the warmage is split into different elemental schools of fire/lightning/ice/acid and the dread necro would split into a variety of undead-type transformations). I'd give the warmage a spell list heavy one evocation and abjuration, while the dread necro would get necromancy and divination (avoiding conjuration and transmutation since those schools are where most broken spells can be found).

I'd be weary of something like shatterglass not giving a save. Even if it were a fort save with a 20 or 25 DC, it should offer a chance to avoid the blinding effect. Otherwise it outshines a wide number of other items or spells with significantly greater cost.

** spoiler omitted **

I like this version of Tyrone's mind eraser. As you say, it's a more empowered version without going overboard.

LT Silverstar wrote:

Shadow weapon made for a great thematic ability, but I feel like this could be improved if somewhere along the line the spell had a longer duration (I'd love to have a baleful shadow that always used his shadow dagger).

That's a really cool idea, did it just come to you recently? You didn't mention it during the playtest. Are you thinking something like the magus' blackblade?

I could have sworn I mentioned it during the playtest, but given the last week that may have been a fever dream :p I was thinking of something along the lines of making shadow weapon a cantrip or significantly increasing the duration of the spell at some point, but the black blade is an intriguing option. Here's a quick framework for a potential baleful shadow rebuild

• level 1 power remains the same
  
• level 7 power is replaced by the black blade at effective magus level beguiler-4. Beguiler doesn't get an arcane pool, but when casting shadow weapon the +1 (@level 5) and keen/frost/+2 (@level 10) enhancements are bestowed upon the black blade. The blade still gets its arcane pool for use in black blade strikes and the like. Since the beguiler doesn't have an arcane pool I'd give him spell defense instead of transfer arcana at level 17. As with shadow weapon, d6's are used for a shadow strike with a black blade.
  
• level 13 power gives some kind of bonus to shadow strikes with the black blade. I'd say make it a full-round action to prevent cheese (player has to decide whether he wants multiple attacks or one massive attack and can't use it to coup de grace). Something like d12 damage dice, or an automatic crit threat.
  

Sorry for the delay in my summary of our playtest, I've been sick as a dog for the last week. I'll start off with the cast of characters we play with, one build for each order/archetype. They all shared the same stat rolls (we do 5d6 drop the two lowest) the resulting array was: 18, 16, 15, 14, 10, 9.

Here are our six beguilers at level one(stat boosts and penalties in brackets, alternate racial traits in square brackets).

arcane hand build - Human (+2 int) [silver tongued]:
Lady Seriana "Bragg" Braggard
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 9, Cha 15.
Born of noble parents, heiress to her family's title. As an act of rebellion against her parents she joined the beguiler's guild instead of entering the local wizard's college. Narcisistic, selfish, unyielding.

wandering heart build - Ifrit (+2 dex, +2 cha, -2 wis) [efreeti magic, hypnotic, wildfire heart]:
Ember Strongheart
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 7, Cha 18.
Her efreeti father left his elemental home when he fell in love with her human mother. As her mother died in childbirth, he was left to raise her in this strange new land. When she came of age she struck out on her own and left her small village for the big city. Quickly finding herself in trouble, she joined the beguiler's guild to pay off the debt of their protection. Beautiful, coy, sweet.

baleful shadow build - Wayang (+2 dex, +2 int, -2 wis):
Fidgit
Str 15, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 7, Cha 14.
He doesn't like to talk about his past, nobody's quite sure of where he came from. He found the secret, underground headquarters of a beguiler's guild and they haven't been able to get rid of him since. Insane, offputting, flighty.

ghastly claw build - Sylph (+2 dex, +2 int, -2 con) [breeze-kissed, like the wind]:
Luro Akaash
Str 15, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 9, Cha 10.
Orphaned because of his mixed blood, he carved a home for himself in the ghettos. By age five he was leading a gang of homeless orphans that eventually ran the local mob out of town. Over the years, stealing no longer satisfied him and he sought out new thrills as an assassin amongst the beguilers. Strong, unfeeling, ambitious.

theurgic brigand build - Fetchling (+2 dex, +2 cha, -2 wis) [shadow magic, subtle manipulator, world walker]:
Jegan "Jiggy" Anto
Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 7, Cha 20.
Bastard son of the king of the realm and a fetchling emmisary, neither race wanted to claim him as their own. The captain of the king's guard was ordered to kill the infant, but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Instead the child was smuggled to another city where he was adopted by a wealthy family of gnomes. Despite the unknown nature of his magic, he was honored to be accepted into the clan of wizards that ran the city when he came of age. He later learned that this was actually a front for a guild of beguilers, but didn't mind as long as he still got paid. Friendly, sarcastic, calculating.

elusive wildling build - Kitsune (+2 dex, +2 cha, -2 str):
Cassandra Silvermane
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 20.
Born to a xenophobic group of kitsune druids, she always thirsted to explore the world outside of her grove. She was excommunicated because of her curiosity and the strange magic that manifested within her. She survived in the wild along the outskirts of a small farming village, spying on the residents and learning their ways. Eventually she found a new home among a travelling band of druids who were willing to teach her how to blend in among humans. Adaptible, calm, kind.

As you can see we had a lot of fun just putting these characters together. We ran them at level one and then leveled them up to ten to run them through some more tests (our next session will be a level twenty one-off mission that should be a lot of fun). Here's a summary of our conclusions so far.

Skills: As expected, the class works well as a skill monkey. Tons of Int guaranteed this for all but our elusive wildling. Any obstacle that could be solved with a reasonable skill check (ex. no jumping across a 100 ft. gorge) were successful most of the time.

As I mentioned earlier, sometimes spells can get in the way of skill-based encounters. The biggest offenders were spider climb breaking climb checks and teleport spells breaking hazard crossings. The new teleport spell looks really great and steps on the chasm crossing issue; though it can still be used to break a grapple without an escape artist check if it's cast stilled.

Combat: The higher BAB definitely helped to make this class more capable in combat. When forced into straight combat (no magic), the beguilers weren't useless, but often had trouble with groups of martial opponents. Armor, weapon proficiency and better hit dice make the class more robust in straight combat than your typical arcane casters. Straight combat was still pretty difficult at level 1 when they were pitted against full BAB enemies.

Spells: The illusion/enchantment spell list is pretty fun at lower levels. I think my favorite move was when Mark decided to use silent image at level 1 to imitate a level 20 beguiler's aspect in order to intimidate a group of guards (this was in an area where beguilers were well known). While the spell list was still quite useful at level 10, but looking ahead we saw the high level spell list was a little lacking.

The two new spells you've done over the last few days ought to do a lot towards making that issue better. The invisibilty spell is definitely useful for all beguilers and offers tools not available elsewhere. It's an interesting choice not to have verbal components to the spell since it couldn't otherwise be silenced, but I think that might be a bit too advantageous. The modify memory spell is also pretty great (especially since modify memory is only available to theurgic brigands), but it still seems a little underwhelming to be its own spell at level 9: it doesn't add a whole lot of new functionality to modify memory other than the increased number of targets. I wonder if this might work better if modify memory was added to the beguiler spell list and a new metamagic feat was added that allowed an enchantment spell with one target to be applied to multiple targets for a +4 spell level bump. Just a thought.

Class features: cloaked/surprise casting and feinting are pretty effective and will only get more effective as feinting becomes a swift action and the save DCs are better.

Orders: The orders all have their strengths and weaknesses and actually seem pretty well balanced.
Arcane Hand: Loads of casting options with a pretty rich bonus spell list (arcane hand gave us the most trouble when it came to deciding which spells we wanted to add to our list because we wanted them all). We were using false theurgy for pretty much every cast to give decent protection from dispelling, though swift feinting might take a bite out of that. We went with a familiar at level 1 (a black cat) and it was a pretty nice thematic option for RP, but not quite as powerful as most of the other level 1 order powers.
Wandering Heart: We had a ball RPing a mousey, reluctant seductress with Ember. Charmed casting wasn't much use at level 1, but at level 10 it let us use silent or stilled spells liberally. Still seems a little disappointing not to be able to use the level 1 order power until level 5 without increasing casting time. Maybe a CL bump alongside the metamagic option would make this more interesting. Enchanted casting is great, combined with charmed casting we only really needed to put ranks in one perform (we chose dance) to disguise all her casts. I'm interested to see how beguiling aura is going to work out at level 20.
Baleful Shadow: This was quite a stand out in combat. The extra damage of the shadow strike (there's already a feat with this name, BTW, so you might want to figure out a new one to avoid confusion) was quite noticeable at low levels. Shadow evocation makes it even more dangerous at level 10 (which will only get better with shadow magic at level 13). We didn't use the entangle ability much, but it was pretty critical when we were fleeing from mercenaries through a busy city. Shadow weapon made for a great thematic ability, but I feel like this could be improved if somewhere along the line the spell had a longer duration (I'd love to have a baleful shadow that always used his shadow dagger).
Ghastly Claw: Crummy rolls hampered most of the paralysis options for the ghastly claw at level 1 as Mark said, but that's how the cookie crumbles for these kinds of powers for low level characters. It was a lot more useful at level 10 and the save was the only real decider on this one. I had gone into this playtest thinking that the save might be better replaced by a simple HD cap (ex. it only works on an enemy with HD less than or equal to your beguiler level), but during play the variability the save gave made it more interesting. Coup de grace as a standard action is a mean trick, but still had to be used pretty strategically and was often only used to drop the last foe in an encounter.
Theurgic Brigand: Plays very much like a rogue with a decent set of spells to aid him. Lots of decent options for talents, though fugitive's foresight stands out for the advanced talent to pick up at level 9. We built him as a ranged character so we could dump Str, though the low Wis we picked for him bit us a few times when he had to make will saves.
Elusive Wildling: Gina had a ton of fun with Cassandra. Just like with the pack lord druid, boon companion is a must have feat for this archetype. The companions can be pretty powerful if you design them right (at level 10 she had a level 10 badger, a level 4 eagle and all her nature's allies on top of them, all of which were vital in some of the grittier battles) Skills are where she fell a little short. Because she dumped int she was a lot more limited than I was expecting in this regard. That said, she works well in a group of beguilers who can cover up the skills she's lacking.

All in all, everything seems to have a bit of a handicap and a fairly decent set of advantages. I'm looking forward to seeing how we do with the high level adventure next time we get to play testing.

That looks really great. I'm digging the new name too. I like the stuff you added about summons and gaze attacks (I hadn't thought about those situations). One thing I would change is that, with the new description, the beguiler no longer starts the spell in the mirror which could be problematic if she uses it tactically during combat. I would change the line:

If the beguiler is in contact with the mirror's surface she can exchange places with her double as a full round action requiring concentration.

to:

Immediately after casting the spell, the beguiler exchanges places with her double in the extradimensional space. On subsequent rounds, she can again exchange places with her double as a full round action requiring concentration only if she is in contact with the mirror's surface.

You may also want to add a minimum price to the mirror to prevent people from assuming it'd be in a spell component pouch.

We got together tonight for a little play testing and things went pretty smoothly. One thing we caught is that you might want to keep a close eye on teleportation spells: the example we came up with was that, once we realized that we could use bard's escape to cross a chasm, this previously difficult skill-based challenge became trivial. If that's your intention then that's fine, but without levitate or fly (the typical magic approach to these kinds of problems) I had originally assumed that the class was meant to struggle a little with those kinds of situations. I'll try to post a more detailed summary of our findings tomorrow but right now I'm pretty tired and I'm going to hit the sack.

I really like this. I think I'll add symbol of mirroring to the beguiler spell list anyway since it fits well with the theme. A few changes I might recommend to this spell: bump the duration up to 1 minute per level but add a range limitation on it (if the beguiler steps out of the range from the mirror the spell ends). Also, since this is a visual spell, I'd use line of sight rather than line of effect for the spell. Other than that the language might need a little bit of a clean up, but not much. I really like the bit about moving the mirror. I'll see what I can hammer together from this.

That's a cool idea about increasing the duration and adding a range to the spell. I think 1 min./level might be a bit too short, though, since similar spells like rope trick or shadowy haven have durations of hours/level.

Also I think this spell would be a good candidate for a named spell (like Tenser's Transformation from 3.5) and I think you and Gina deserve naming rights on that. Do you guys have any thoughts about a name for the spell?

We've given names and a short backstory to each of the beguiler builds we've put together for the play testing and our arcane hand beguiler seems like a good fit for this. Her name is Lady Seriana Braggard ("Bragg" for short). She's a human noble who has decided to "slum it" by joining the beguilers guild instead of the wizards guild. She's far from modest, hence the nickname: so maybe Bragg's Reflected Decoy?

ertw wrote:

What kind of game do you guys play? Do you perhaps mean Mage's Lucubration? LOL. It's an interesting idea, though it would potentially cause issue with the ghastly claw's spell kill ability.

Oh god! facepalm I've been saying that wrong for years now.

That makes two of us.

On the subject of beguiler spells, Gina and I have been tossing this idea around for the last few days and wanted to get your feedback on it:

Reflected Decoy

School: illusion (figment)
Level: 4th
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, F (a flat, mirrored surface at least 1 sq ft in area)
Range: personal
Target: you
Duration: 1 round/level

When the beguiler touches the mirror, she creates an extradimensional space containing a mirrored duplicate of all things within line of effect of the mirror. The beguiler is then pulled into this extradimensional space leaving behind a single illusory double of her self as per symbol of mirroring. This image lasts for as long as the beguiler remains within line of effect of the mirror.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it, however spells of the illusion school are reflected by the mirror and act as if cast by the figment. The beguiler cannot break the plane of the mirror without ending the spell. If the mirror is broken by outside forces, if the beguiler's double steps out of line of effect with the mirror, if the duration of the spell ends or if the beguiler dismisses the spell, the beguiler is instantly teleported to the space occupied by the figment.

The mirror can be moved while the beguiler is within it, changing the extradimensional space contained within. While the mirror is being moved, both the figment and the beguiler remain stationary while the extradimensional space shifts around them. This shifting space can be difficult to navigate and thus, if the mirror is moved, a beguiler must succeed an acrobatics check (DC of 1/2 the number of feet the mirror is moved) or fall prone. If the mirror is tilted such that it no longer has line of effect with the ground, the spell ends and the beguiler falls prone and is teleported to the space occupied by the figment.

Thank you both for your comments. I hadn't thought about the change in casting stat when I decreased the skills and I'm definitely on board with returning the skills per level for the archetypes. Out of curiosity, would you just do the theurgic brigand or both archetypes?

I'd say just the theurgic brigand, they're closer to rogues and bards which have more skills. The elusive wildlings are more like druids which make do with a 4+Int skill progression.

Where would you say the price of the components would be fair? 100 gp per HD? 500 gp? More?

I'd say somewhere in the middle. 200-250 gp per HD.

I've had a chance to look over the changes and I have a few comments.

• I see the logic in the decreasing of skill ranks since it's not a major hindrance to the beguiler still being a top notch skill monkey, but I think this may be a bit of an issue for the archetypes (since they're Cha casters rather than Int casters). I'd recommend keeping the 6+Int progression for the theurgic brigand at least (since it's more rogue-like than the elusive wildling).
  
• The arcane hand changes look really great except for the typo Penumbral Shadow already pointed out.
  
• A few issues with baleful shadow. 1) Have you considered adding shadow weapon to the list of spells effected by shadow magic? It seems like it would fit the theme. 2) The duration of the entangling darkness ability seems a little long to me, I'd cut it down to 1/4 the beguiler's level. 3) If it's your intention to limit shadow magic by way of spells per day, you probably need to think about how metamagic interacts with the ability. If they are allowed to work with the ability that's every cast between spell level 5th and 9th that could be used with the ability, which is not an insubstantial amount.
  
• The spell kill of the ghastly claw may also benefit from thoughts about metamagic like shadow magic.
  
• I think you made some really good choices with regards to the wandering heart capstone.
  
• Most of the favored class options look good. I'd reduce the drow option to +1/4 rounds to match my suggestion above.
  
• I had a thought about the stolen knowledge ability: since the bard spell list often gives early entry on many wizard/sorcerer spells, you should add some specifics about whether or not he can learn a spell that's already on his list (only at a lower level).
  
• You still haven't discussed unrooting for the elusive wildling, did you decide against that change?
  
• The two new weapons are really cool. Small nitpick: a drake isn't a magical beast, it's type is dragon.
  
• I think the material components for dreaming puppet might be a bit too cheap. Even at 100 gp per HD that's only about 2000 gp for a max level character (which is far cheaper than most spells that effect such high level creatures).

Altogether I think these changes are really great and the conversion is definitely getting close to a nicely balanced finished product.

Woops, hadn't realized they had changed that one since we don't use it. I've got my last exam this evening (currently putting off some last minute studying), so I should be able to leave my thoughts this weekend.

The baleful shadow seems to be an odd case of balancing. The decreased dice, slower rate of getting more dice and lack of a flanking option make the sneak attack option significantly depowered from the rogue version. However, it should be easy enough for one of these beguilers to ensure he's in shadow and his enemy is flat footed most of the time at higher levels, so that builds it up a bit. I think it would still be fairly balanced if you were to increase the new dice to one every three levels instead of one every four. I can't help but wonder if maybe it would work better as a "study for one round then attack flat footed" attack with damage dice boosted to 1d8 in bright light, 1d12 in dim light/darkness and 2d8 for shadow evocations. This provides the same average damage on a per round basis and keeps a beguiler from just dropping sneak attacks every round by swift feinting.

That might invite problems if people are playing with massive damage rules, since it wouldn't be too hard to average 50 damage with one of those upgraded strikes.

LT Silverstar wrote:

Dreaming puppet is really the only thing unique to the restless mind, you could potentially turn this into a beguiler spell and scrap the weak order. It's similar to magic jar, but if it can be used at distance, that's a pretty powerful tool. You might distinguish it from magic jar further by shortening the duration to something like 5 minutes per level and cutting out the search phase altogether (only works on targets the caster names). It would probably fit in as a 7th or 8th level spell.

That's a distinct possibility. Hmm, I'll have to think on that for a while. It might make a little less clutter so I could add a little more equipment (since there seems to be plenty of interest there).

Did you have a chance to check out the order updates I posted yesterday? I'd be interested in hearing your take on them.

I glanced over them briefly and they both looked very interesting. I'd want to take a closer look at their particulars before I gave my full comments but right now I'm in the middle of exams. I might be able to give more comments in a few days.

I can't disagree with that; the order was originally written to provide an alternate apostasy besides the shambling bones, but I really liked some of the unique things it had to offer. I still think I'll leave it in, even if it's just to give the bad guy's some neat tools to cause trouble.

Dreaming puppet is really the only thing unique to the restless mind, you could potentially turn this into a beguiler spell and scrap the weak order. It's similar to magic jar, but if it can be used at distance, that's a pretty powerful tool. You might distinguish it from magic jar further by shortening the duration to something like 5 minutes per level and cutting out the search phase altogether (only works on targets the caster names). It would probably fit in as a 7th or 8th level spell.

So I had a chance to go over the whole conversion document with the players I'll be play testing with last night (though it seems there have been updates to it since I printed it out Thursday morning). Let me just lay out a few of our comments:

• As expected, the flavor of the class as a whole went over incredibly well. Mark (Penumbral Shadow) had already seen it, but Gina (my pack lord druid player) was really entertained by it. We couldn't help but kick around a few ideas about what the beguiler guild would look like in the various cities of our world. Each of us had a slightly different picture of the guild, but the world is so varied that each interpretation could fit in somewhere. I really think the beautiful job you did formatting these pages helped to make it more immersive since it looked like we were reading off of pages from an actual Paizo splatbook.
  
• The general mechanics of the class seem to be really well worked out. The consensus around the table was still that we'd like to see the BAB bumped up to a three-quarters progression. They've got armor training and expansive weapon proficiencies to indicate some level of martial training and the poor attack progression the beguiler currently has doesn't mesh with that.
  
• We all really enjoyed the equipment you've included for beguilers, you've come up with some really creative stuff here and neat ways to subvert simple powers in exciting ways. While we love the butcher's crook and the hornet's sting, they're both exclusively ranged weapons and we did wonder if you might have something in store for a melee weapon?

Here's what we ended up saying about the various orders and archetypes:

• The arcane hand is very interesting, though the bonus spell list is kind of all over the place. I guess that might make sense thematically since they're assembling a little bit of magical powers from all the schools. We felt that nondetection was a bit of a weak choice for the level 13 power, you might want to up its power to mind blank.
  
• The ghastly claw is an interesting martial class, but the core power is still limited to a toss up in the early game because of the poor BAB. Having said that, it may pose a bit of a problem when used on significantly larger enemies (the kind that typically make up mini-boss or boss encounters) since their touch AC is lowered by size penalties. Maybe you could include a fort save in the attack to help depower it against big foes a little.
  Another point Gina made that we hadn't foreseen is that it is a super tempting order to multiclass into for martial players. A ninja, for example, could take a single level of beguiler and pick up an incredibly powerful touch attack to paralyze an enemy with literally no downside. If you were to include the save we mentioned above and have it scale with beguiler level it would help to limit the effectiveness of a beguiler dip. Also, the spell kill ability could be abused by multiclass casters who have a wide range of spells (instead of just their bonus necromancy spells) to use with it. There's even a trait called two-world magic which explicitly lets you grab a cantrip from another list (like ray of frost) so you could make ranged coup de grace attacks all day long. You'll have to think about things you can do to prevent open loopholes like that.
  The capstone power for the ghastly claw seems a little overpowered compared to the other orders, too. You might want to cut down on the number of immunities granted or remove the DR.
  
• The obscured step feels underpowered. You added vanish to the beguiler spell list and that makes their level 1 power completely obsolete. The rest of their powers seem to lack a lot of the flavor contained in the other orders. I understand the need for a kind of stealth-utility class, but it just seems boring on paper. Maybe it'll get better when we actually play with it.
  With the shadow evocation powers on their bonus spell list, this class is going to have some combat potential so you might think about reskinning it along those lines. Give it something like the rogue's sneak attack with a slower progression (maybe a new die every three or four levels). Combine this with a better BAB and you've got something interesting IMHO.
  
• The restless mind seems very niche-oriented. It has incredible flavor, but its utility is pretty limited in combat. We're not sure we'd change it, since pathfinder isn't all about combat, but we'd probably pass it over for a PC. It's a pretty good NPC tool for GMs, especially for the big bads: make your players go for a little sleep walk during the night and leave them to figure their way back to the group.
  
• The wandering heart is likewise a primarily non-combat order, but it has legs to stand on. The tools given to this beguiler makes it quite a powerful party face and I could easily imagine having one of these characters leading a whole attachment of town guards around to do her bidding. One particular concern we had was the capstone: at level 20 most enemies you face (even ones with natural attacks) have the +3 enhancement bonus required to overcome that cold-iron DR, so it essentially becomes a nonfactor. The end result seems a little underpowered. Maybe replace the DR with a DR 5/- like the ghastly claw or some kind of energy resistance.
  
• The theurgic brigand is interesting, but the talents seem a little underwhelming. Mark informs me that you've added a few unique talents for the beguiler that might help that, but I haven't had a chance to look it over. The capstone here seems a little overpowered, too: sneak/crit immunity, PLUS DR 10/adamantium (while this faces a similar problem to the DR of the wandering heart, it needs a higher tier enhancement to overcome it that won't be quite as ubiquitous), PLUS SR 30, PLUS blindsight? I'd cut out the blindsight and one of the DR or SR.
  
• The elusive wildling was a bit of a favorite at the table with Gina considering moving over to this if we give the conversion to OK for table play (her pack lord is currently in a pretty precarious position). A lot of the powers synergize really well and make it really powerful out in the wilds. In an urban environment it still has enough tools to get by on its charisma. The capstone seems powerful, but not overly so: our only concern is that a move action for rooting might be a bit too little too quick for the advantages it has and there's no mention of how to unroot. Gina suggested that maybe it could take a full round action to unroot, this would prevent situations where a beguiler would root once she's taken combat position to prevent trips/bullrushes and then unroot to move on.

I hope these comments help, as Gina showed us yesterday, it can be useful to see these things through new eyes.

LT Silverstar wrote:

I think this is definitely good enough to bring to the table now for some play testing. If you could post or PM me a link to your final version of the conversion, I'd like to pass it along to Penumbral Shadow and another one of my players after our game this Thursday. When we've all gone over it we'll try to schedule some time to run some scenarios next week.

That sounds great, here's the finalized version:

Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder.

WOW! That layout is absolutely incredible, it must have taken you forever! Loading it through google drive doesn't do it justice, when I saved it to my computer and opened the file it's just spectacular! I'll definitely get this out to my players ASAP and get back to you about our misadventures.

I think this is definitely good enough to bring to the table now for some play testing. If you could post or PM me a link to your final version of the conversion, I'd like to pass it along to Penumbral Shadow and another one of my players after our game this Thursday. When we've all gone over it we'll try to schedule some time to run some scenarios next week.

LT Silverstar wrote:

One comment I'd make is that you might want to mention what kind of action is required to take something from the pockets of the breastplate. The description mentions a bag of holding so is it a move action? Does it work like the handy haversack where it doesn't invite an AoO? My gut instinct is, since each pocket is so small, it'd work as a free action without opportunity.

I'd thought I mentioned it, but taking a look through the version I posted I guess it wasn't in there. Yes, free action without causing attacks of opportunity. I'll add it in.

Come to think of it, it might actually be neat if the spell component pouch fabricated components below 1 gp on the spot. It wouldn't mechanically work any different from the mundane pouch, but would add some more neat fluff to the armor.

LT Silverstar wrote:

I guess it might also be interesting to have options for the butcher's crook to be done with different types of crossbows. Some players might prefer a light crossbow or even dual-wielding hand crossbows. I'm not sure what kind of mundane items they might look like... maybe the light crossbow could be an umbrella while the hand crossbow could be a canteen? I guess those could be done up and priced by GM fiat.

I had actually come up with both of those, but left them out because it seemed needlessly bulky. As you said a GM or player could price those out since the only difference is the base weapon. The light version I came up with looked like a broken harp (called the Liar's Lyre) and the hand version looked like a rusted tinderbox (called the Snuff Box).

Those names are absolutely fantastic, but I can see your point about them being a bit cluttery.

StealthDiabeetis wrote:

Am I missing something or does the Order of the Ghastly Claw allow a level 1 character to paralyze someone simply by a surprise touch?

The paralyzed opponent could then be killed with a coup de grace. Isn't that a little too powerful?

She still needs to succeed on a melee touch attack (with zero BAB and likely a low Str mod) and can only do it 3 + her Int mod times per day. It ends up being fairly comparable to a 1st level Witch using the slumber hex, except that the Witch can use her hex as many times per day she wants and the hex's save DC works off of her Int mod (the Witch's casting stat) instead of what is likely to be a dump stat.

I don't really think strength is a dump stat for an unseen hand beguiler. It'll definitely be lower than int or dex, but likely above any others. But in the end the slumber hex witch will be plenty more effective against martial type characters while this beguiler will have a bit of an edge against casters (because of good will saves) and it kind of washes out.

LT Silverstar wrote:

The flavor changes with the guild are also quite good, though I do have a few issues here. There's a bit of an issue where in some places you give a very broad idea of the guild (ex. each guild has its own rules) and in other places you give very specific ideas (ex. things that happen in ALL guilds). I'd recommend removing all instances where you give unnecessary specifics about the guild. The biggest offender here is the hideaway and elysium: you've gone on about how every guild is different and then suddenly there's these two places that exist in every guild that are all the same. I love these two flavor-wise and I'd probably use them at my table, but to make them mandatory hurts the class on the whole. Some of your earlier criticisms boiled down to the fact that your idea of the guild didn't match the way they would play their beguilers. By opening up the guild structure as you have in some places you give the GM and player the option to make it their own. If you could work this openness across the entire document it would likely be more palatable to more people.

I can see your point about the hooligan's hideaway and (I assume) dark lyceum. I had put those in to boost the flavour of the guild, but I can definitely see how that could cause problems for some. I can remove that section and I'll probably also try to make my claims about the guild more general. The other big point that jumps into my head right now is their relationships with natural beguilers, I'll try to simply give the two ends of the spectrum of attitudes and remove the bits about how large guilds usually treat them poorly.

Yes, I meant lyceum. Not sure why elysium jumped into my head. I'm glad you're getting my point about keeping the fluff general. When I went back and looked over my D&D books, one of the things that jumped out at me where your beguiler differed from the original was the guild structure. The D&D books specifically mentioned that a beguiler fit easily into any game since it didn't come with the baggage of a new BIG GLOBE SPANNING group. Your new draft definitely falls more in line with this and will make it much easier to fit into an existing game.

Might I ask if you had any feelings about the equipment that I added to this document? I know you were interested in more martial options for the beguiler and I'm pretty proud of some of the stuff in there.

You've got a lot of really great stuff in there. I can tell you spent tons of time making sure that the fluff and crunch on each of these items made it unique and different. I loved that you brought back set bonuses from D&D, and the way you did it was really neat. It gives every group another unique power to play with (and the beguiler is all about deciding which of your fun toys to play with for me). Both weapons are great with really neat rogue-like applications (and repeating endless ammunition is a killer combo on the crossbow). You painted a really vivid picture with the hood of many faces and I've got this really cool image of how it works in my mind.

Thanks for your interest! I took a look at the file permissions and it seems that when I uploaded a small revision (removing a repeated word) a few days ago the permissions switched over to only allowing me to view it. I've fixed the permissions so now the link above should work, let me know if you're having any more problems.

I guess I got lucky since I saved a version of the pdf saturday afternoon. I can confirm that the file is loading correctly again.

Well I've taken a good read over the latest pdf and you've got some good stuff in there. I like the melding of the unseen hand and shambling bones, you've figured out a really neat blend between assassins and necromancers. The new sets of bonus spells are also really nicely crafted: there are much more cohesive themes across the orders (except the arcane hand, but that seems to be by design) and the addition of wider spell lists (I noticed a few the bard and witch lists).

The flavor changes with the guild are also quite good, though I do have a few issues here. There's a bit of an issue where in some places you give a very broad idea of the guild (ex. each guild has its own rules) and in other places you give very specific ideas (ex. things that happen in ALL guilds). I'd recommend removing all instances where you give unnecessary specifics about the guild. The biggest offender here is the hideaway and elysium: you've gone on about how every guild is different and then suddenly there's these two places that exist in every guild that are all the same. I love these two flavor-wise and I'd probably use them at my table, but to make them mandatory hurts the class on the whole. Some of your earlier criticisms boiled down to the fact that your idea of the guild didn't match the way they would play their beguilers. By opening up the guild structure as you have in some places you give the GM and player the option to make it their own. If you could work this openness across the entire document it would likely be more palatable to more people.

I've been thinking about the issue with your necromancers for a while and I had an idea of how to handle the situation.

The first step is to get rid of apostasies altogether. While I liked the idea of orders and apostates at first, it seems a bit redundant now that you've got a few archetypes that offer beguiler options outside of the guild. The restless mind would fold back into the guild as an order.

The second step is to loosen the restrictions of the guild largely. This means that it's less of a "these are the disciplines of magic we don't practice because its against the rules" situation and more of a "these are the disciplines of magic we don't practice because they aren't our specialty." This may benefit from a relaxing of the guild structure as a whole. Make it less of a world-wide underground network of beguilers and more local: each major city has its own guild with its own particular rules, etc. Certain orders may not even be available in certain parts of the world.

The third step is merging the shambling bones and the unseen hand. I still don't think that raising armies of undead fits thematically into the beguiler type, but necromancy certainly fits with an assassin-beguiler. Give them some of the inflict spells on their bonus list, along with spectral hand and more harmful necromancy spells (providing a more offensively minded beguiler). On top of this you'd rework the order powers, here's my suggestion:

• Paralyzing touch - Works as before, but instead of becoming a ranged touch at level 9 it can simply be delivered through spectral hand (if he has the spell). Also, with the quickened version I'd recommend it using 2 daily charges instead of just being limited to 3 times per day.
  
• Death blow - Also works as before, but it includes the quiet death ability as an evolution at a later level.
  
• Slaying spell - This is a new power to take the place of quiet death. Essentially it would allow the beguiler to coup de grace with a spell that has an attack roll (namely the inflict spells). This creates new opportunities for this new beguiler.
  
• Master power - I'd say the shambling bones's master power is the more attractive of the two, but I do like your new ideas for the unseen hand. Maybe it'd be good to mix them up: immunities and DR from shambling bones and hidden mind from unseen hand.
  
• Enervating touch - I still like this power and maybe it would fit in with paralyzing touch or slaying spell somehow.

LT Silverstar wrote:

BAB: This might just be because I've houseruled that rogues and monks get full BAB at my table, but I think this class might benefit from the medium BAB progression. The HD reflects the fact that this class is forced into closer combat and some orders have a strong melee/combat focus.

I'm not sure I'd want to increase the BAB. I want the beguiler to remain primarily a caster class. While some of the order powers are more martial than others, they still typically center around touch attacks or special attack actions which don't require an attack roll.

I can understand that but I really feel like the class needs something to make it a little more combat-oriented than a wizard or sorc.

LT Silverstar wrote:

Silent foot: An interesting stealthy class. Lots of shadow utility from shadow's kin and night eye. Enveloping darkness is the real star of this show, I think. The capstone is decent, but not as nice as many of the other orders.

Do you think the capstone might be more attractive if I replaced the Augment Summoning feat with some aspects of the shadow creature template? I'm thinking maybe the defensive abilities and the shadow blending ability.

Shadow blend would definitely be a boost to the power, that and the DR 10 would probably make a capstone on par with the others.

LT Silverstar wrote:

Unseen hand: This is a really interesting, but strongly situational order. I always saw assassin-types as more of an NPC class than a PC class. That said, you have a much more worthwhile assassin than the prestige class. Combining a paralysis attack with faster coup de graces is a powerful way to kill, but it's fairly limited by use-per-day restrictions. Quiet death is a really fun option with lots of flavor. I especially liked the penalty for the check if you're not using a dagger for the killing blow. Capstone again is kind of meh.

I did try to pull away from the more NPC favouring abilities of the assassin PrC like true death, but wasn't quite sure of how to best do the mastery ability. I'll try to think of something that might work better, but I'd be open to suggestions if you had one.

• The dastardly finish feat from the advanced player's guide would be a great way to further power up the coup de grace
  
• something akin to the assumption ability of the master spy prestige class (advanced player's guide again)
  
• make it so they don't need to eat, breath or sleep

LT Silverstar wrote:

Wandering heart: Really cool thematically and everything here feels so incredibly unique. Enchanted casting jumps right off the page and makes so much sense to me. When you couple it with charmed casting, it basically gives you a free silent/still so you only need to focus on one perform skill. You could also use charmed casting to extend your charm spells to great effect. The power of these abilities is somewhat offset by the somewhat limited utility of charm spells. Beguiling aura is also really intriguing, the only change I might suggest is being a little more explicit in terms of what defines "looking upon her". Does it mean her face? Could it be any part of her body (I have this funny image of my mind where a wandering heart beguiler fascinates men by showing some ankle)? The capstone seems like it comes out of nowhere, but offers useful abilities and resistance. Maybe a little more could be included to explain why this seductress suddenly turns into a fey creature?

I'll try to add a little more text to the skill descriptions to add to these. I definitely need to be a little more specific with the beguiling aura ability, it will probably mean her face or possibly even just meeting her gaze. This ability was based on a power possessed by Nereids which is where the fey aspect of their master power comes from.

Hmm, hadn't thought of the aura attack as a pseudo-gaze attack. That's actually a really neat idea.

LT Silverstar wrote:

Restless mind: At first I thought this order wouldn't interest me, but it caught my attention with dreaming puppet. What an option to have in your toolbox! It's powerful, but it's offset by risk (not just getting lost, but also to your character while they're in the trance). I might suggest making the "search" phase of the spell last longer if you don't know the target. In particular it feels like it should be a very real risk that the entire duration of the ability could get used up by the search to really drive home the need to name your target. The rest of the powers are alright, but don't jump out like dreaming puppet.

That's a really intriguing possibility you raise about making the search for the target potentially waste the use of the ability. How long do you think is appropriate (particularly since the ability can last for up to 10 hours)? Do you think that this duration might be too long?

The duration might be a bit long, most of the more practical uses of the power that I could think of would only require an hour or two. It'd also cut down on potential for bigger abuses. If you do keep the duration, I'd say 3d4 hours would be a good search time.

LT Silverstar wrote:

Shambling bones: Feels like kind of a boilerplate necromancy option to me and almost seems out of place. Enervating touch is an interesting option that (when combined with the capstone morph into pseudo-undead) almost touches on the dread necromancer's transformation from D&D. This thing is still thematically a nightmare and the order as a whole just seems... not a beguiler.

I felt that the shambling bones creates some interesting options for beguilers; I was particularly interested in the potential to combine illusions with necromancy to disguise a group of raised minions. I did my best to keep the offensive necromancy spells off of their bonus list (with the exception of waves of fatigue), so it doesn't just turn into another offensive powerhouse.

It still feels thematically wrong to me. The new bonus spell system also makes it ripe for abuse since they now gain access to all necromancy spells. This includes those that can do significant damage, making for a less illusion/charm focused beguiler.

LT Silverstar wrote:

Theurgic brigand: Stolen knowledge is an interesting take on the bonus spells. Otherwise it's a pretty simple reskin of rogue talents instead of order powers. If you made the change to hide in plain sight you discussed (replacing it with the ranger ability for urban terrain) would help to distinguish it too.

I've already made the hide in plain sight change on my main document for the conversion.

LT Silverstar wrote:

Elusive wildling: Already posted my comments on this. The more I read it, the more I fall in love with this weird beguiler option. I still think you should include the empathic link.

I've come around to agree with you WRT the empathic link. An elusive wildling will now get the improved empathic link at 9th level.

Good to hear.

So I've taken a look at the class as a whole and here are my comments, questions and suggestions:

I love the fluff you've put into this class. The guild and orders give enough of a framework to build up the basic idea of the beguiler while leaving it sufficiently vague so that the player can mold the character to his specifications. The archetypes build on this even more so, allowing the player to break out of the enforced framework of the guild without sacrificing any of the trademark beguiler abilities.

BAB: This might just be because I've houseruled that rogues and monks get full BAB at my table, but I think this class might benefit from the medium BAB progression. The HD reflects the fact that this class is forced into closer combat and some orders have a strong melee/combat focus.

Saves: I like that you added good reflex saves to the class, it always seemed fitting with the theme of the beguiler. It wasn't usually a very big issue in D&D as high dex was pretty important for the class. Fortitude saves will always be where this class is weakest.

Charlatan's cant: A great addition that calls back to the thieves' cant from AD&D. It adds a neat depth to fluff of the class and becomes a valuable tool for DMs looking for a hook to offer his players.

Bonus spells: A lot of really cool options here. Bonus subschools and bard/witch spells make for very interesting new options to add to the spell list. I'm not sure how I feel about the list spells entering at a lower spell level than they normally occur. I think I'll have to see how it works out at the table.

Surprise casting: Similar to the D&D ability, but the addition of ranged options at higher levels makes it really killer. Not too powerful, but it lets a beguiler use it without getting absolutely stomped if her enemy succeeds on his save. Combining it with improved/swift feint gives the beguiler a lot of combat options.

Hide in Plain Sight: Thematically a very neat addition. A beguiler's likely to be a stealth machine, but this adds to their options for a quick escape when necessary.

Orders, apostasies and archetypes

Arcane hand: False theurgy was a skill trick I've used pretty routinely with my beguiler builds. A familiar and constant nondetection help to beef up the magical abilities of the class. Metamagic without increased casting time is an incredible capstone power, not sure I'd ever use the spells for charge option.

Silent foot: An interesting stealthy class. Lots of shadow utility from shadow's kin and night eye. Enveloping darkness is the real star of this show, I think. The capstone is decent, but not as nice as many of the other orders.

Unseen hand: This is a really interesting, but strongly situational order. I always saw assassin-types as more of an NPC class than a PC class. That said, you have a much more worthwhile assassin than the prestige class. Combining a paralysis attack with faster coup de graces is a powerful way to kill, but it's fairly limited by use-per-day restrictions. Quiet death is a really fun option with lots of flavor. I especially liked the penalty for the check if you're not using a dagger for the killing blow. Capstone again is kind of meh.

Wandering heart: Really cool thematically and everything here feels so incredibly unique. Enchanted casting jumps right off the page and makes so much sense to me. When you couple it with charmed casting, it basically gives you a free silent/still so you only need to focus on one perform skill. You could also use charmed casting to extend your charm spells to great effect. The power of these abilities is somewhat offset by the somewhat limited utility of charm spells. Beguiling aura is also really intriguing, the only change I might suggest is being a little more explicit in terms of what defines "looking upon her". Does it mean her face? Could it be any part of her body (I have this funny image of my mind where a wandering heart beguiler fascinates men by showing some ankle)? The capstone seems like it comes out of nowhere, but offers useful abilities and resistance. Maybe a little more could be included to explain why this seductress suddenly turns into a fey creature?

Restless mind: At first I thought this order wouldn't interest me, but it caught my attention with dreaming puppet. What an option to have in your toolbox! It's powerful, but it's offset by risk (not just getting lost, but also to your character while they're in the trance). I might suggest making the "search" phase of the spell last longer if you don't know the target. In particular it feels like it should be a very real risk that the entire duration of the ability could get used up by the search to really drive home the need to name your target. The rest of the powers are alright, but don't jump out like dreaming puppet.

Shambling bones: Feels like kind of a boilerplate necromancy option to me and almost seems out of place. Enervating touch is an interesting option that (when combined with the capstone morph into pseudo-undead) almost touches on the dread necromancer's transformation from D&D. This thing is still thematically a nightmare and the order as a whole just seems... not a beguiler.

Theurgic brigand: Stolen knowledge is an interesting take on the bonus spells. Otherwise it's a pretty simple reskin of rogue talents instead of order powers. If you made the change to hide in plain sight you discussed (replacing it with the ranger ability for urban terrain) would help to distinguish it too.

Elusive wildling: Already posted my comments on this. The more I read it, the more I fall in love with this weird beguiler option. I still think you should include the empathic link.

*shakes head* guys named Steve, man.

I should have a good chance to look over this in the next few days so I'll try to get some comments about the meat of the class for you soon.

You can't really tailor anything to the Steves of the world, they'll always look for the loopholes in anything. I don't really think giving a beguiler the ability to see through the eyes of their animal companion is particularly game breaking, especially with divination powers like scrying and superb stealth options (mundane and arcane). I think the link mostly just adds a beguiler-like feel to the animal companion side of the equation and not a highly exploitable power-up for the ability.

I recognize the pack lord druid's natural companion in there because one of my players uses it with pretty good effect. She usually keeps a high-level wolf, a low-level owl and a low-level shark (she keeps the shark in a custom, extra-dimensional fish tank based on a bag of holding). The owl and shark are very situational and are mostly used to scope out situation where her character can't get to. I think it would be very fitting if this wildling could use their pack in a very similar way. Why not include the improved empathic link ability for the archetype too?

Things I like: Good choices for the powers borrowed from the ranger/druid. I especially like the fact that you replaced the beguiler language with wild empathy. The capstone power looks really cool, too.

Things I might change: Adding in the improved empathic link would be really useful as I said. I also think this archetype might work well with a wisdom casting stat instead of charisma (making it more druid-like).

I agree with SNA. I wonder if the new archetype might also benefit from swapping out the ranger's hide in plain sight ability instead of its supernatural cousin the vanilla beguilers use?

Hi there, I'm Penumbral Shadow's DM and just had a quick read over the writeup. I didn't take a really close look at the numbers, so I'd need a little more time to decide if we might move forward with a little in-game play testing.

I must say I found the flavor and fluff of the class really exciting. The guild and all the underlying structures in the order helps to differentiate the character of a beguiler from a sorc or bard. But the thing that really caught my attention is the archetype. The idea of a beguiler developing outside of a guild is intriguing and I think it opens the door to a wide number of options. The rogue-like archetype is great and on-flavor for an urban beguiler but what about a self-taught beguiler who grew up in the wilderness? You might blend the class with the weapon style feats of the ranger to replace the order powers? What about a street brawler with a better BAB progression and some of the fighter's weapon training skills? What about a beguiler trained in a church who can channel energy to inflict damage on an enemy? You might even do something with limited bardic performance abilities. You've set up a great class archetype which could turn into a jack-of-all-trades.