Over the past few days I've been revisiting the Beguilers of the Inner Seas document and I have a framework for turning the Hellknight Deceiver into an archetype rather than a prestige class. I'm also reworking a guild or two, and I'm sketching out an armourless, divine archetype that is tied to the deity Sivanah and I'd like to get some opinions on it.
The basic idea is that she trades out her order powers for a bonded bladed scarf, which she can use to enter a rage-like defensive stance (in which she whirls her scarf around her in a flurry of cloth and blades) that offers attacks of opportunity against those who attack her or attempt to move past her. Later on this stance also confers special defensive and offensive benefits (reminiscent of 3.5's Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil class, but less absurdly powerful) in exchange for rounds of the stance. I have two concepts for the rest of the archetype's chasis right now:
A Constitution-based caster. She has practiced long to effortlessly wield her bladed scarf, but doing so has left her scarred and disfigured. She uses illusion to hide this disfigurement, but the scars give her access to the divine power. The scars provide her with a natural armour bonus, but she cannot wear any armour.
An Intelligence-based caster. She wields her bladed scarf with unparalleled agility in battle. She uses this combination of Intelligence and Dexterity to defend herself in battle, gaining the Canny Defense class feature so long as she doesn't wear any armour.
I really like the thematic idea of the Con caster (I think a lot of people were disappointed when this unique option was stripped from the Scarred Witch Doctor archetype), but I fear it may be a bit too far from the core idea of a beguiler. I'm also worried that it might be too powerful for an archetype that is pretty explicitly meant to be on the front lines. The defensive stance's number of rounds would key on her casting stat as (4 + casting modifier + twice beguiler level). What do you guys think? Any preferences toward one idea or the other?
25 CON by level 20 isn't out of the question...
4+7+40=51 rounds. Probably more than they'd ever need or use.
I'd either leave it at Mod+double level or 4+Mod+level.
A Constitution-based caster. She has practiced long to effortlessly wield her bladed scarf, but doing so has left her scarred and disfigured. She uses illusion to hide this disfigurement, but the scars give her access to the divine power. The scars provide her with a natural armour bonus, but she cannot wear any armour.
An Intelligence-based caster. She wields her bladed scarf with unparalleled agility in battle. She uses this combination of Intelligence and Dexterity to defend herself in battle, gaining the Canny Defense class feature so long as she doesn't wear any armour.
I agree the flavor of the con-caster is interesting, you could even include some kind of mechanic where she can damage herself with her scarf while casting spells for added benefit. I don't think con-casting is nearly as game breaking as many think, yes it gave the SWD a number of HP equivalent to the barbarian or fighter, but it still didn't give them any more combat proficiency and that half BAB really hurt on that front. If anything I'd say the new SWD is way more powerful because it allows half-orcs to start with 22 Int.
Personally, I think you could find a good middle ground with a little bit of both: make it a con-caster with canny defense. That way it would need high con for casting and HP, str or dex for attack and/or damage and int for AC and skills.
4+7+40=51 rounds. Probably more than they'd ever need or use.
I'd either leave it at Mod+double level or 4+Mod+level.
It seems Ertw's following the rage formula (though that would actually be 2+Mod+double level because you don't get extra rounds of rage at first level), so it's entirely possible that it might become an at will power as part of the capstone.
4+7+40=51 rounds. Probably more than they'd ever need or use.
I'd either leave it at Mod+double level or 4+Mod+level.
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
It seems Ertw's following the rage formula (though that would actually be 2+Mod+double level because you don't get extra rounds of rage at first level), so it's entirely possible that it might become an at will power as part of the capstone.
Penumbral is right, it's designed to mimic rage and I got the formula wrong. The ability is intended to be used nearly every round of combat, and is also a usable resource. One thing I neglected to mention was that this archetype replaces Surprise Casting, so the beguiler cannot feint to set up Cloaked Casting, instead she needs to cast from within this defensive stance to gain those benefits. As such it needs a pretty deep pool of resources (much like a barbarian requires a deep pool of rage) or else it wouldn't be very functional.
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
I agree the flavor of the con-caster is interesting, you could even include some kind of mechanic where she can damage herself with her scarf while casting spells for added benefit. I don't think con-casting is nearly as game breaking as many think, yes it gave the SWD a number of HP equivalent to the barbarian or fighter, but it still didn't give them any more combat proficiency and that half BAB really hurt on that front. If anything I'd say the new SWD is way more powerful because it allows half-orcs to start with 22 Int.
Personally, I think you could find a good middle ground with a little bit of both: make it a con-caster with canny defense. That way it would need high con for casting and HP, str or dex for attack and/or damage and int for AC and skills.
I definitely agree that a Con caster wouldn't necessarily be an overpowered option (nor was the pre-errata Sacred Witch Doctor wasn't), but my biggest concern is that a lot of people have the preconceived notion that a Con caster is innately imbalanced (similar to our experiences here with many peoples' initial reaction to this conversion). I like the thematic options that Con casting gives me, and I think your suggestion about potentially causing herself damage while casting is pretty interesting. Your mixing the two ideas is a stroke of genius, pushing it to a slightly more MAD arrangement will definitely work to offset the apparent balance issue.
Ahh, well in that case carry on. Some resources a character has is meant to be used wisely, while a rage is pretty much whenever/wherever. Didn't realize you were going for the latter, and it makes sense why you are.
As far as the perception that CON casting is imbalanced... I don't know that it is. In a world where you can use DEX for defense and to hit and damage, I dunno how imbalanced that is anymore.
I think people who play pathfinder are often looking for things to be upset about. When the scarred witch doctor was a CON caster a handful complained about how overpowered it was. Now that its an INT caster another handful complain that they lost a really flavorful option that wasn't overpowered.
I personally don't think CON casting a problem for the archetype, especially if it has need for other key attributes like INT for AC like you're suggesting. One thing I'd be cautious about is giving it divine casting (not sure if you were considering that or not, but thought I'd mention it. Taking away armor proficiency and then giving them casting without the ASF issue seems to be inviting players to dip a level of fighter and cast in full heavy armor. This would also subvert the balance restriction of needing INT for AC. Either make sure all their class features require them to wear no armor (like the monk) or keep them as an arcane caster, just with divinely granted powers.
Just to add to the voices in favor of con casting, another point to consider is that there are not very many races that have a racial bonus to con (certainly a lot less than those with bonuses to int), but a lot of options with penalties to con. That really limits what you can do with a con caster.
Just to add to the voices in favor of con casting, another point to consider is that there are not very many races that have a racial bonus to con (certainly a lot less than those with bonuses to int), but a lot of options with penalties to con. That really limits what you can do with a con caster.
That's another good point I hadn't considered. Thanks for the support.
I think my personal favorite would be either a Lizardfolk or Werecroc Skinwalker beguiler.
I'm going to break from the mold a bit and say that this archetype might be an interesting niche for a Vishkanya beguiler. Especially if there's some sort of self-injury component to really synergize with its CON dependent poison.
I think my personal favorite would be either a Lizardfolk or Werecroc Skinwalker beguiler.
I'm going to break from the mold a bit and say that this archetype might be an interesting niche for a Vishkanya beguiler. Especially if there's some sort of self-injury component to really synergize with its CON dependent poison.
Don't know that I like "injure self to cast, just because it's CON". INT casters don't take hits to skill points or stat damage to cast...
It isn't meant to be a "beguiler injures herself to cast each spell" ability, but rather I'm thinking about having an option to empower spells in some way by swallowing a little bit of damage yourself. Still haven't ironed out all the finer points, but I've got a few systems I'm mulling over. This is, of course, another fine point of balance consideration; it couldn't be something like take x amount damage to keep casting after your spell slots are exhausted; given how readily available healing is (and how numerous hit points can be) in the late game, so I can't let it be too liberally applied.
I loved the Beguiler of 3.5 and your take is quite something. I had some questions about the spell list. Grease fits with the controller aspect and ties thematically with Web and Pyrotechnics. Heroism and Good Hope are the opposite side of the offensive enchantment line. Thoughts?
I loved the Beguiler of 3.5 and your take is quite something. I had some questions about the spell list. Grease fits with the controller aspect and ties thematically with Web and Pyrotechnics. Heroism and Good Hope are the opposite side of the offensive enchantment line. Thoughts?
The spell list for the conversion is a pretty tricky matter to approach since it's one of the linchpins of the class' balance (and perceived balance). As I mentioned earlier when discussing issues relating to the Con casting archetype I'm currently working on, even if an option is completely reasonable, I still need to work within the confines of perceived balance to ensure that the beguiler is available to a wider audience.
Grease was a purposeful omission because I specifically wanted to limit the number of conjuration based crowd control options to force the beguiler more deeply into its illusion/enchantment niche for this purpose. While comparing grease and web, there were a few reasons I went with web instead of grease:
Web is a higher level spell, as such its utility comes online a few levels into beguiler while grease is available from 1st level. It's one of the reasons grease is often touted as one of a few game-changing spells during very low level play.
Grease specifically renders opponents flat-footed, while web only imparts the grappled condition. This means a 2nd level beguiler doesn't have to rely on feint to trigger her cloaked casting which significantly frees up her action economy. I imagine this is the reason that grease isn't found on the beguiler spell list in PHB2 either.
Heroism and good hope have repeatedly ended up on the short list for order spells, but I'm not completely comfortable with boosting the beguiler's buffing capacity for fear of stepping on the bard's toes a bit too much. If you are interested in adding some buffing options to your beguiler, I'd recommend taking a look at the theurgic brigand archetype that allows you to add a handful of bard spells to your spell list as you level up.
All that said, I do encourage players to discuss spells that they feel are particularly thematic or appropriate to the character they have in mind with their GMs. He/she is the ultimate arbiter of what you can do with class at his/her table, if you feel passionately about access to those spells bring it up and you might be able to work something out.
Kryzbyn wrote:
Maybe its just used to give a level dependent boost to DC?
That's one of the systems I'm taking into consideration. It'd probably have an implementation similar to the overchannel feat from DSP's psionics unleashed. Nothing is particularly set in stone yet, though.
I've uploaded an update of the Beguilers of the Inner Seas document. I've included both the archetype form of the Hellknight deceiver and the new scarred mourner. There are a few feats there that I apparently never released, and a rewrite of the Varisian guild, too. I haven't gone over everything with a fine-toothed comb to see if everything still jives with the changes, but the archetypes are definitely open for comments.
Thanks. It mostly draws on the Hellknight Signifier PrC, but it was an interesting exercise to trim it down to an archetype as SylverFox recommended a while back.
I've just had time to skim the scarred mourner, but I like the general idea. It kind of feels like a more balanced approach to the old Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil bolted onto a Barbarian-type framework. I'm not really crazy about the oracle curse, though, that seems a little bit too prohibitive.
Hellknight Deceiver is still great, I love the way you made the assiduous gaze an optional power. I'm really torn on the Scarred Mourner. I love the flavor of the class, but so much of the mechanics seems just a bit off. I agree with Penumbral that the curse seems like an unnecessary punishment. It might work better if it only affected her while she wore her mask. The archetype also seems way too MAD: it needs Con for spells and dancing, Dex and Int for AC, and Cha to make perform (dance) checks. I feel like one of these needs to be dropped, maybe use acrobatics checks instead dance checks for attacks? The other issue I see is that the archetype loses armor, but none of its class features (other than canny defense and spells) are called out as being hindered by wearing armor. I would have figured that the dance at the very least would be difficult or impossible to do while wearing heavier armor.
The archetype also seems way too MAD: it needs Con for spells and dancing, Dex and Int for AC, and Cha to make perform (dance) checks. I feel like one of these needs to be dropped, maybe use acrobatics checks instead dance checks for attacks?
I hadn't even noticed that, yeah trimming it back to relying on three attributes would help. Another solution might be to allow her to use Int or Dex for Perform checks.
Alright so the current plan I have for fixing the scarred mourner is as follows:
Adding an ability called dexterous dancer which allows the beguiler to use Dexterity in place of Charisma for Perform (dance) checks.
Remove veiled sight curse completely. I liked the flavour of this, but based on your feed back it's obviously an unnecessary drawback.
Visage of lamentation now grants darkvision to 60 feet at 5th level and see in darkness at 10th level.
Maelstrom of the mourner updated to allow Perform (dance) checks during dance. Also the dance cannot be started if the beguiler is wearing any armour or carrying a shield.
Adding three new feats which allow the beguiler to transform the appearance of her mask from a sad expression to one of happiness, anger, or emotionlessness. Each feat replaces the mask's darkvision/see in darkness with new abilities. Changing the mask's form is a move action.
New BotIS feat I've been mulling over for the last few days:
First World Familiar:
First World Familiar
The beguiler can acquire a new familiar: a magical beast with intriguing new abilities touched by the mysterious world of the fey.
Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, 7th-level beguiler.
Benefit: When acquiring a new familiar, the beguiler can choose to select one with the following traits. The familiar's type is changed from animal to magical beast and it gains darkvision out to a radius of 60 feet, but it does not recalculate its BAB, HD, saves, or skill ranks; it also gains the ability to speak Sylvan, even if it would not typically be able to use spoken language.
The familiar gains the extraordinary ability to change the colour and pattern of its fur, feathers, scales, or skin once per round as a free action. When using this ability to camouflage itself it gains a +8 bonus on Stealth checks. Finally, the familiar gains the supernatural ability to see all things as they actually are; it is treated as if it were under the constant influence of a true seeing spell.
Special: This feat has no effect on a familiar accessed through the Improved Familiar feat or similar abilities that grant access to familiars which are not of the animal type.
New BotIS feat I've been mulling over for the last few days:
** spoiler omitted **
Ertw, are you doing what I think you're doing? Are you letting a beguiler have a beguiler as a familiar?
Shining South's beguiler was definitely part of the inspiration for the abilities granted, but with your choice of the base familiar I feel like there are some unique combinations are available to players who choose this feat.
...the dance cannot be started if the beguiler is wearing any armour or carrying a shield.
I've been thinking about this and I wonder if this could be done a little better. I feel like the no armor provision of the class means well, but will just end up with a character who instead just wears bracers of armor and stacks canny defense on top of that for the same (or greater) AC as a regular armor wearing beguiler. I fully support the no armor condition for canny defense, but it seems to me that maybe allowing the beguiler to wear armor with no armor check penalty during the dance (in my head the idea behind that prohibition is that the armor gets in the way of the beguiler's movement during the dance) if he so chooses to allow a wider array of equipment options for scarred mourners. You could even allow the beguiler to mitigate the effect of a small amount of armor check penalty for rounds of dance at later levels.
...the dance cannot be started if the beguiler is wearing any armour or carrying a shield.
I've been thinking about this and I wonder if this could be done a little better. I feel like the no armor provision of the class means well, but will just end up with a character who instead just wears bracers of armor and stacks canny defense on top of that for the same (or greater) AC as a regular armor wearing beguiler. I fully support the no armor condition for canny defense, but it seems to me that maybe allowing the beguiler to wear armor with no armor check penalty during the dance (in my head the idea behind that prohibition is that the armor gets in the way of the beguiler's movement during the dance) if he so chooses to allow a wider array of equipment options for scarred mourners. You could even allow the beguiler to mitigate the effect of a small amount of armor check penalty for rounds of dance at later levels.
Bracers of armour still aren't a one-to-one correspondence with armour itself; they can't be enhanced with special abilities and they don't have their own base armour bonus (so you're paying 9000 gp for something that you can get out of a 10 gp set of leather armour). Tying it to zero armour check also gives me pause, since that's a pretty wide swath of armour options (especially if mithral is used). Furthermore with zero ACP armour there's no penalty to be applied to attack rolls or skill checks for non-proficiency, so the fact that the sacred mourner gives up the beguiler's usual armour proficiencies becomes a non-issue on that front, too.
So, if there aren't any concerns regarding the provisional update I'll go ahead and bump it to the official conversion along with some spells from Ultimate Intrigue added to the spell list in the coming days.
Blerg, I forgot how annoying it was to wrestle with the formatting of the document when adding text on pages above the image. Here's a version without the image while I figure out how to move the image around in a way that looks good.
That's odd. Last night as I was going to bed I saw a new post by ertw in this thread. Now that I've gotten home from work all I'm seeing is a post from Wednesday night. Anybody know what's going on?
That's odd. Last night as I was going to bed I saw a new post by ertw in this thread. Now that I've gotten home from work all I'm seeing is a post from Wednesday night. Anybody know what's going on?
There was a post thanking me for my work on the conversion by a poster who said he found it after being disappointed by the trickster, and I responded thanking him for his kind words. Given that all of the negative reviews of that product have suddenly disappeared, I imagine the mods cleared out those two posts too.
Given that all of the negative reviews of that product have suddenly disappeared, I imagine the mods cleared out those two posts too.
That's pretty sad. There was a heck of a lot more "nerdrage" (to use the term used in the product discussion) in the complaints about the unfavorable reviews than there was in the reviews themselves. Glad we don't have to deal with those kinds of drama queens here :P
Just updated the Beguilers of the Inner Sea document with the updated scarred mourner. Sorry it's taken so long, I've been planning out this new archetype in my free time over the past few days.
Here's a sneak peek at a new guild written up for the new archetype:
Spellscar Nomads:
Spellscar Nomads Location: Alkenstar (Mana Wastes)
Sigil: A shadowy figure with both hands raised above its head.
Orders Trained: Wayfairing haunters
Associated Factions: None.
From the moment this itinerant tribe of Keleshite beguilers stepped out of the Spellscar Desert, unscathed by the wasteland's mutagenic magic, they were met with astonishment. It wasn't until later that they became embroiled in suspicion that they were not as untouched by the wastes as they appeared. Those who resided near the Nomads' encampments found themselves the victims of unnaturally bad luck, often finding mechanical devices breaking down far more frequently than they should. This superstition combined with the fact that things tended to go missing when they were around meant that they could not make camp in any one part of Smokeside for too long. Despite the prejudices faced by the Nomads, they were able to steal, bribe, and flatter their way into the good graces of Alkenstar's upper class; this has allowed them to finally set down permanent roots amongst the towers of Skyside after centuries of wandering.
Generations spent wandering the Spellscar Desert had, in actual fact, tainted the bloodline of these beguilers as many Smokesiders had feared. Those who possess the gift of spellcasting act as natural beacons of wild magic's chaotic nature, causing significantly more frequent malfunctions in mechanical and magical devices alike. Furthermore, as a result of significant time spent in areas where the veil between the material and shadow planes was especially thin (where their spellcasting still had a chance of working), each Nomad finds herself partnered with a caliginous outsider posing as her own shadow. Nomads are raised from birth to intertwine these hereditary gifts with their beguiling arts, a tradition that produces tricksters, thieves, and con artists without compare on Golarion.
When the Aspis Consorts offered a guild commission to these particularly strange natural beguilers, it was a calculated risk; the Nomads were a family first and foremost, placing loyalty to one another above everything else, even the guild. Yet still, there was obvious value in their abilities and today Nomads are regularly lent out as mercenaries to act as "wreckers" (agents specifically designated to foil opposing casters and traps) on guild operations throughout the Inner Sea.
Leadership: The Nomads' leadership structure reflects their familiar nature. The elders, who live amidst the towers of Skyside, dictate the general direction of the guild by committee. This council is guided by the hand of the family patriarch, a position currently held by Khair bin Zaman (N male human beguiler 14); tales claim that he broke into treasury of Martel in his younger days and stole an artifact of great value, but none can be sure of the veracity of this claim. He has held this position for nearly two decades and shows no signs of declining health, leading some to suggest that his longevity may be supernatural in nature; perhaps an effect of the artifact he supposedly stole from Martel, or the result of some sort of deal negotiated with otherworldly forces by his eidolon.
As the Nomads grow in number, so too does the burden of guild leadership. To this end, they have named a scion, a dynamic young member of the family, to manage the day-to-day operations of the guild from the streets of Smokeside; Waajida al'Zilal (CN female human beguiler 9), a brash young woman with ambition not seen since Khair was in his prime, currently holds this title. As titular guildmistress, as well as ambassador to other beguiler guilds and a master criminal in her own right, she has recently been attempting to wrestle more and more power away from the elders in hopes of bringing a new dynamism to the guild as a whole.
