Beguiler conversion for Pathfinder


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LT Silverstar wrote:
ertw wrote:

Updated conversion document, 2 year anniversary edition with two new orders and three new archetypes can be found here:

bit.ly/pathfinderbeguiler

I hope you find these comments helpful and thank you again for your hard work these past two years.

Thanks so much for your comments and suggestions, they've been vital to making the class what it is today. I'll try take a look at your suggestions later this evening and let you know what I think.


Another point I forgot to make in my last post: had you considered making the Whispering Initiate a psychic caster (Occult Adventures) rather than an arcane caster? It might give the archetype some more PC-friendly options and flavor.


LT Silverstar wrote:
  • Ghastly Claw: I never particularly cared for the Spell Kill ability, I think Malicious Maneuvers is a pretty good replacement power. The wording about feat qualification seems a bit clunky, I wonder if it might be better served by granting them the benefits of the Dirty Fighting feat which is basically the same thing.
  • I wasn't aware of that feat, it'd definitely work well and isn't much of a power boost, particularly if it only applied to the signature maneuver.

    LT Silverstar wrote:
  • Petrified Mind: ...Typo note: you've got their 3rd level order spell listed as "REPLACE", I'm guessing that was a note to yourself that made it through the editing process.
  • Yep, that was my mistake. I'll have to find an appropriate spell to slot in there that's not on the beguiler spell list already.

    LT Silverstar wrote:
  • Shadowgraft Skirmisher: ...One big question I have is: how does the Shadowblade interact with Wraith Strike?
  • When I conceptualized the idea of the shadowblade I was thinking it would be an extension of the shadow weapon spell, but as it evolved I walked away from that interpretation to avoid the save to disbelieve. My intention was for it to use the d6 damage dice.

    LT Silverstar wrote:
    Maybe you can say it's treated as if it were made of a special material like umbrite and add umbrite weapons to the list of things that advance Wraith Strike's damage dice?

    That's a really clever solution. I'm not crazy about umbrite, but I've got an idea for this.

    LT Silverstar wrote:
    It also seems to me that taking a full round action to change the type of an already summoned weapon is a bit prohibitive (especially since it's already keying on Weapon Focus as a feat tax), maybe the ability to decrease the change time as a move/swift action could be added at the cost of a few arcane pool points?

    That sounds reasonable. I'm thinking 2 points to reduce the change to a swift (reduced to 1 point at level 5).

    LT Silverstar wrote:
    Another thematic option I had thought of for Umbral Sorcery was an option to spend arcane pool points to charge and full attack like the Swordmaster Rogue's Tiger Trance (particularly because this is meant to be a more martial beguiler).

    That might be a bit too powerful, but I suppose that might just depend on the point cost. I'll have to think on that one for a while.

    LT Silverstar wrote:
  • Tomebound Beguiler: ...I'd recommend just outright giving this archetype Arcanist spellcasting which will result in the same more breadth at the cost of decreased spell slots mentality.
  • That was an approach I hadn't considered. I like that the spell progressions line up pretty well. That is definitely an option. Borrowed knowledge would need a little rewrite to work with that change, but it could work.

    LT Silverstar wrote:
    Adept Beguiler seems like a bit of a let down in terms of a capstone for the archetype, but I'm not sure what you could do there.

    I figured that picking and choosing order powers would be a worthwhile option. I do recognize that it's not quite as powerful as some of the capstone options, and I'd entertain any ideas for a replacement.

    LT Silverstar wrote:
  • Whispering Initiate: I don't 100% have a feel for this archetype. It seems like more of a NPC class than a PC class (as others have said). I suppose it has its niche in an intrigue-based game, but this really doesn't grab me the same way that a Wandering Heart beguiler would for that purpose. As others have stated, the strong scrying focus is a tad odd for PCs. I wonder if adding enchantment/mind-affecting spells to Piercing Gaze might give the archetype a bit more heft as more than a scrying master.
    ...had you considered making the Whispering Initiate a psychic caster (Occult Adventures) rather than an arcane caster? It might give the archetype some more PC-friendly options and flavor.
  • I had actually considered making this a psychic archetype, but decided against it as it might step a bit too much on the mesmerist's feet and didn't feel 100% appropriate for the class' flavour. I like the idea of adding spells with the mind-affecting descriptor to the piercing gaze ability, it seems like a good way to expand the archetype's portfolio into another thematically appropriate area.

    Thank you again for your insights and suggestions, they're always appreciated.


    SylverFox pointed me here from a thread I posted in homebrew and I've just been pouring over the pages of the PDF and this thread all evening. I just wanted to say that it's really cool that you've put in such amazing work and that you're still working so hard on crafting this class after years of work. I really hope my DM will let me roll up a beguiler, and if he does I'll share some of my war stories :p


    I look forward to seeing your ideas, ertw.


    Just a heads up, impose dependence is very similar to imbue with addiction and halcyon veil is very similar to aura of the unremarkable. I suppose an argument could be made that your spells are enchantment/illusion instead of transmutation/enchantment, but it's understandable if you didn't know these spells existed since they're from less popular splatbooks. You might just want to add these spells to the beguiler spell list.


    Danglish wrote:
    Just a heads up, impose dependence is very similar to imbue with addiction and halcyon veil is very similar to aura of the unremarkable. I suppose an argument could be made that your spells are enchantment/illusion instead of transmutation/enchantment, but it's understandable if you didn't know these spells existed since they're from less popular splatbooks. You might just want to add these spells to the beguiler spell list.

    Yikes, I hadn't seen those spells before. I'll have to see if I can come up with something to make my two spells more unique. Thanks for letting me know about this.

    I'm not too keen on the idea of adding spells from books outside of the core line. Firstly because I'd rather not plumb through every book to find worthwhile spells for the beguiler and secondly because I'd still like to reference where the spells in the spell list are coming from and adding a lot of spells from companion books would make that convoluted quickly.


    ertw wrote:
    SylverFox wrote:
    ertw wrote:

    Based on SylverFox's suggestion about a silence-like spell where the beguiler could control illusory sounds emanating from within/without:

    ** spoiler omitted **
    Totally awesome! I like this way more than just the auditory illusion idea I had.
    Glad you like it. If you've got a character name you'd like associated with the spell I'd be happy to attach it to the name.

    I've been wracking my brain to decide which of my beguilers I think would be most likely to make such a spell (a problem that's exacerbated by the fact that I've been DMing a game with a lot of NPCs associated with the guild of beguilers), so that's why it's taking me so long to get back to you on this. I've finally decided that it should be my first beguiler: Flyndlara (Flynn to her friends).


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    I've put up a provisional update that can be found here.

    Changes include:

  • Hidden Signs ability added.
  • Wraith Strike ability updated to include d6 damage dice on morithil blades.
  • Malicious Maneuvers ability updated to include dimensional rush ability, and to add the advantages of the Dirty Fighting feat in lieu of the previous ability to ignore certain feat pre-requisites for improved and greater combat maneuver feats.
  • Inflict Pain spell added as 3rd level order spell for Order of the Petrified Mind.
  • Daunting Illusions ability updated to incorporate the possibility of illusions with only sonic components.
  • Shadowblade Invocation ability updated to add ability to change weapon type as swift action by expending arcane pool points, and to give the shadowblade the properties of a morithil blade.
  • Arcanist Spellcasting ability replaces Diminished Spell Knowledge for Tomebound Beguiler.
  • Beguiler's Tome ability updated to reflect changes to spellcasting.
  • Borrowed Knowledge ability now allows Tomebound Beguiler to add her choice of order spells to her tome and spell list.
  • Force of Will ability moved back to 3rd level.
  • Piercing Glance ability updated to include spells with mind-affecting descriptor.
  • Morithil Blade added to beguiler equipment.
  • Hornet's Sting is now a morithil weapon rather than a mithral weapon, costs updated accordingly.
  • Flynn's Halcyon Veil, Move Heavens, Redouble Dependence, and Shadowy Heist spells added.

    I still haven't come up with a reworked version of the Adept Beguiler ability, but I'd love any comments on the abilities that have been updated.


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    ertw wrote:
    Malicious Maneuvers ability updated to include dimensional rush ability

    Did you just give the ghastly claw biotic charge? I absolutely love that!


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    I looked over the changes and they all look pretty good. I really like what you did with morithil, it's a neat flavor idea without too much mechanical benefit.


    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
    ertw wrote:
    Malicious Maneuvers ability updated to include dimensional rush ability
    Did you just give the ghastly claw biotic charge? I absolutely love that!

    ... maybe. What can I say, when Luke mentioned giving the shadowgraft skirmisher the tiger trance I got a hit of inspiration. After thinking it over, I felt it was more appropriate to expand the malicious maneuver catalogue than umbral sorcery.

    LT Silverstar wrote:
    I looked over the changes and they all look pretty good. I really like what you did with morithil, it's a neat flavor idea without too much mechanical benefit.

    That's good to hear. I figured that, given the number of beguiler abilities that key on the presence of shadows/lighting conditions, it'd be worthwhile to give them a way to cast shadows without increasing local light levels.


    ertw wrote:
    I still haven't come up with a reworked version of the Adept Beguiler ability, but I'd love any comments on the abilities that have been updated.

    I had an idea for this. Give them something like the shadow spells (shadow conjuration, shadow enchantment, shadow evocation, and shadow transmutation) that allows it to cast any spell a few times a day by spending a spell slot a few levels higher.


    It took a little bit of "friendly discussion" (translation: protracted argument), but my DM has okayed the beguiler. I'm pretty pumped!

    Ertw, do you think the alignment restrictions on the orders are still relevant? Particularly since it's so easy to ignore based on the way you've worded it, it might make the class a bit more mutable to any setting. Also, I get that you're pricing things by the magic items pricing rules, but many of your magic items are priced at values like 24,950G, which could easily just be rounded to 25k without much annoyance.


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    Updated the provisional update.

  • Removed alignment restrictions from orders, removed section of ex-beguilers referencing removal from orders.
  • Changed order spells which were already on the beguiler spell list.
  • Minor changes to the wording in Beguiler's Tome.
  • Increased tomebound beguiler's spell points to 1/2 + her Charisma modifier.
  • Replaced Adept Beguiler with Beguiling Universalist.
  • Rounded off magic item prices.


  • The changes to the Tomebound archetype make it pretty powerful, probably more powerful than any of the other option the beguiler gets. That said, I do like that the power is gated behind the dual ability dependence (Int and Cha) and that probably will keep it from getting out of hand.

    I'd say the update on the whole is ready to go, great work.


    LT Silverstar wrote:
    I'd say the update on the whole is ready to go, great work.

    Great, I'll give it another day or so in case Penumbral Shadow or SylverFox have other thoughts and then move on to working on a few new feats.


    I agree with LTS, everything looks great. Excited about new feats.


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    ertw wrote:
    LT Silverstar wrote:
    I'd say the update on the whole is ready to go, great work.
    Great, I'll give it another day or so in case Penumbral Shadow or SylverFox have other thoughts and then move on to working on a few new feats.

    I just uploaded the update to the main conversion document.


    So I've been looking over some of the archetypes and the elusive wildling caught my eye. In particular the wildling's pack ability seems a little out of place. The pack-type druid companion system has been (in my experience) frowned upon due to its breaking the action economy and bogging down combat. It also doesn't seem like a beguiler running around with a zoo would be a particularly stealthy option. I can't help but think it might be a better fit to give the wildling a regular animal companion and then powering it up later by granting the companion interesting, thematic powers. An example I thought of would be something along the lines of giving the companion a blink dog's constant blink and at will dimension door. Just a thought.


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    Danglish wrote:
    So I've been looking over some of the archetypes and the elusive wildling caught my eye. In particular the wildling's pack ability seems a little out of place. The pack-type druid companion system has been (in my experience) frowned upon due to its breaking the action economy and bogging down combat. It also doesn't seem like a beguiler running around with a zoo would be a particularly stealthy option. I can't help but think it might be a better fit to give the wildling a regular animal companion and then powering it up later by granting the companion interesting, thematic powers. An example I thought of would be something along the lines of giving the companion a blink dog's constant blink and at will dimension door. Just a thought.

    When I was planning out the 2 year update a few months back, I did feel a little disappointed in the Elusive Wildling; it was developed when I was borrowing a lot of stuff from existing classes to try and keep balance in hand, and it didn't really have anything really unique about it. I had considered replacing the pack lord companion with a unique selection of magical beast familiars (like the blink dog you mentioned), but wasn't particularly satisfied with just picking out magical beasts of varying power levels (and I'm not particularly crazy about Paizo's system for doing this either). Giving existing companions extra powers/traits is something I hadn't thought of; it's an interesting option that I'll have to think about.

    LT Silverstar and Penumbral Shadow, I know you had a friend who was fairly invested in the Elusive Wildling, how do you think she would feel about moving away from the pack and into magical beast territory?


    ertw wrote:
    LT Silverstar and Penumbral Shadow, I know you had a friend who was fairly invested in the Elusive Wildling, how do you think she would feel about moving away from the pack and into magical beast territory?

    I just talked to Gina and she said she'd be very interested to she this new idea.


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    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
    ertw wrote:
    LT Silverstar and Penumbral Shadow, I know you had a friend who was fairly invested in the Elusive Wildling, how do you think she would feel about moving away from the pack and into magical beast territory?
    I just talked to Gina and she said she'd be very interested to she this new idea.

    Okay, new provisional update with the new Elusive Wildling. Let me know what you think.

    PS I know that the formatting is wonky in the magic items section, but I'm not dealing with that until I finish the new feats since that'll push things around more.


    I'm drooling over the idea of a blink wolf. Those are some really cool options. Any thoughts on a bear companion option? Also there weren't any aquatic options like sharks.


    Danglish wrote:
    I'm drooling over the idea of a blink wolf. Those are some really cool options. Any thoughts on a bear companion option? Also there weren't any aquatic options like sharks.

    My intention was to leave extra animal companion options up to GMs. I hope that this approach gives more opportunities to mix-and-match the powers to your choice of companion while still preventing overpowered match-ups.


    I like the change to more stealthy pet choices down from the whole list. Pets like dinosaurs, bears and big cats never seemed appropriate for a beguiler. Lots of those powers look pretty cool, it'd be really hard to decide on my favorite.


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    Some new beguiler feats for you to peruse:

    Enlightened Strategist:

    Enlightened Strategist (Combat)

    A prodigious student of combat, the beguiler is able to adapt combat forms to her unique style even if she does not have the typically required physique.

    Prerequisites: Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting, beguiler.

    Benefit: A beguiler with this feat can use her Intelligence score in place of her Dexterity and Strength scores for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.

    Illusive Tactics:

    Illusive Tactics

    Weaving a masterful tapestry of illusions with deft tactical acumen, the beguiler uses her threatening illusions to gain even greater strategic advantage.

    Prerequisites: Spell Focus (illusion), Threatening Illusion, beguiler.

    Benefit: Whenever casting a spell affected by the Threatening Illusion metamagic feat, the figment is treated as if it possessed the same teamwork feats as the beguiler for the purpose of determining whether she receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. The illusion's positioning must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the beguiler to receive the listed bonus.

    Morithil Duelist:

    Morithil Duelist (Combat)

    Through extensive martial training, the beguiler has learned to wield morithil blades with singular skill.

    Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, 6th-level beguiler.

    Benefit: Whenever the beguiler wields a morithil blade which gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat she, can choose to treat a one-handed weapon as a light, or a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. She must have proficiency with the weapon in order to gain the benefits of this feat; furthermore this feat has no effect ranged weapons, double weapons, or weapons used as thrown weapons.

    Ritual Blade:

    Ritual Blade

    Strict arcane training allows the beguiler to cast her spells unfettered by small arms.

    Prerequisites: Eschew Materials, Two-Weapon Fighting, 3rd-level beguiler.

    Benefit: Whenever using her beguiler spellcasting while wielding two weapons, any somatic components required by her spells can be replaced by using a light weapon held in her off-hand as a focus component. Casting a spell in this way does not increase its casting time or spell level.


    ertw wrote:
    Some new beguiler feats for you to peruse:

    Enlightened Strategist seems really powerful. Since it cuts two physical attributes out of the equation for a combat beguiler build, it makes the class significantly more SAD. I'd say bring it to player's choice of Str or Dex. It does make a Str based beguiler more appealing, though.

    Illusive Tactics looks great, it's just a shame that it'd be limited to Gnomes since they're the only race that gets Threatening Illusion.

    I like Morithil Duelist a lot. I've long thought that mithral and other weight saving materials ought to decrease the handedness of weapons. Does it work only on slashing weapons or would it work for piercing and bludgeoning weapons too?

    Ritual Blade almost feels like it ought to be a metamagic feat to me, basically an alternate version of Still Spell. It's about time there's been something that allows casting while TWF, though.


    SylverFox wrote:
    Enlightened Strategist seems really powerful. Since it cuts two physical attributes out of the equation for a combat beguiler build, it makes the class significantly more SAD. I'd say bring it to player's choice of Str or Dex. It does make a Str based beguiler more appealing, though.

    The beguiler would likely still need either strength or dexterity to actually succeed at any kind of attack, but I think you're right about it being a little strong regardless. I'll cut it back to the player's choice.

    SylverFox wrote:
    Illusive Tactics looks great, it's just a shame that it'd be limited to Gnomes since they're the only race that gets Threatening Illusion.

    I always forget that Threatening Illusion is Gnome only because that requirement is almost always waived for games I've been involved in. I guess any other GM that does that would allow their players to take this regardless of race.

    SylverFox wrote:
    I like Morithil Duelist a lot. I've long thought that mithral and other weight saving materials ought to decrease the handedness of weapons. Does it work only on slashing weapons or would it work for piercing and bludgeoning weapons too?

    It works for any type of weapon, so long as it's not a ranged or double weapons.

    SylverFox wrote:
    Ritual Blade almost feels like it ought to be a metamagic feat to me, basically an alternate version of Still Spell. It's about time there's been something that allows casting while TWF, though.

    I wanted to stay away from it being a metamagic feat because if it changes the spell level and/or increases the casting time then you'd probably be better off just using Still Spell.


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    Good to see some free beguiling goodness out there. ;)


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    A new item and a chain of style feats for archers:

    Razorbow:

    Razorbow: A highly specialized weapon which only a handful of beguilers are trained to use, a razorbow combines a composite longbow (+0) with a matched pair of curved blades along each limb. The razorbow can be used as a bow without penalty to the attack roll so long as the wielder is proficient with the composite longbow, however any creature who attempts to do so without the requisite Exotic Weapon Proficiency suffers a 50% chance to injure itself with the attached blades dealing 1d6 points of slashing damage and forcing it to drop the weapon (wasting the attack); this risk can be removed by taking a full-round to use the attack action instead of the typical standard action.

    The blades can be wielded as a double weapon which can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat, but cannot be used effectively so long as the bow remains fully strung; using the blades without unstringing the bow acts as if the weapon's size category was reduced by one, including the attack penalty for using an undersized weapon.

    The bowstring of a razorbow has an embedded ball on either end, each of which fits into a nock on the bow's limbs. Unstringing the bow can be done in a move action (dropping the bowstring at the wielder's feet), and restringing the bow requires a full round action which provokes attacks of opportunity. A proficient razorbow user can rush the restringing, requiring only a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, but doing so she suffers an 80% chance to injure herself with the attached bows dealing 1d6 points of slashing damage. Each razorbow, also includes a small cutting blade that can be used to cut the bowstring as a free action; a bowstring that has been cut in this way requires 1 minute to subsequently restring, a process which cannot be rushed.

    Cost: 300 gp; Weight: 8 lbs.; bow damage: as composite longbow, blade damage: as scimitar.

    Razor Style:

    Razor Style (Combat, Style)

    This pensive fighting style allows the beguiler to quickly calculate the arc of her arrows for greater accuracy at a distance.

    Prerequisites: Int 13, Far Shot, beguiler.

    Benefit: While using this style the beguiler adds a competence bonus to equal to her Intelligence modifier to any ranged attack roll with any type of bow, so long as her target is farther than 30 feet from her. Furthermore, any miss chance granted by the target's concealment (partial or total) on such an attack is reduced by 20%.

    Razor's Edge:

    Razor's Edge (Combat, Style)

    Firing into dark corners and shunting her arrows through the shadow plane, the beguiler is able to catch even the most prepared opponents off guard.

    Prerequisites: Int 15, ability to cast twisted space, Far Shot, Razor Style, 6th-level beguiler.

    Benefit: The beguiler may declare that she is using this feat before making any ranged attack roll that qualifies for Razor Style's benefits (a failed attack roll ruins the attempt); using this ability imposes a -4 penalty on this attack roll. If her target is in an area of dim light or darkness, she can cause her arrow to slip into the plane of shadow momentarily and emerge from a random direction, rendering him flat-footed against the attack. The beguiler can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her beguiler level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than beguiler.

    Razor's Step:

    Razor's Step (Combat, Style)

    Disappearing and appearing from the shadows as if by magic, the beguiler's murderous dance rains terror upon her foes.

    Prerequisites: Int 17, ability to cast shadow walk, Far Shot, Razor Style, Razor's Edge, 12th-level beguiler.

    Benefit: The beguiler can take a full-attack action while using Razor Style, casting shadow walk as a swift action. If she does, she can teleport up to twice her speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell), dividing this teleportation into increments she uses before her first attack, between each attack, and after her last attack. She must teleport at least 5 feet each time she teleports and each teleport must begin and end in an area of dim light or darkness. Any ranged attack made during this action which qualifies for Razor Style's benefits also gains the benefits of Razor's Edge without penalty, nor consuming a daily use of that ability.

    Special: A beguiler who has the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (razorbow) can string or unstring her bow as a free action whenever she teleports. This allows her to alternate between ranged attacks and two-weapon fighting multiple times during the attack.


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    • Magical beast companions are awesomesauce! Still, I feel like they might be too much as a full druid AC (even with the short list of choices). I feel like it might be good to give the AC to them at level 4 (with effective druid level = beguiler level -3) like a ranger.
    • Enlightened strategist seems broken to me, even if it was cut down to just Dex or Str. I love the idea of a martial beguiler, but this just feels like you're giving away too much. It basically gives you the option to take a ranger combat style feat every time you can pick up a feat. I also worry that it would make a 1 level dip in beguiler too tempting for a martial class just to open up things like Str-based TWF builds without having to be a slayer or ranger.
    • Morithil duelist looks off the chain. I agree with Sylver, lighter weapons should equal easier handling. It's also nice because it means you don't have to rely on sawtooth sabers for an epic TWF build now. Still I can't help but wonder if it should be scaled back a bit too. I'm thinking something along the lines of working for a single weapon type, or maybe just weapons that beguilers are automatically proficient with? The more I think about it the less happy I am about having beguilers running around dual-wielding bastard swords as light weapons (with EWP), or two of the many polearms that deal slashing damage.
    • I like the razor style chain, it's interesting but not overly powerful. Razor's step is a neat dimensional dervish alternative and the shadow flavor is thematically appreciated. My only question is: why does razor's step work on shadow walk instead of shadow step? Given the name, it could even be a typo?
    • I remember the razorbow concept from 3.5, but I'm not sure whether it was homebrew or from one of the infinite splatbooks WotC put out. I like the idea of this, a swiss army knife weapon with a hefty cost (especially when you have to pay the cost of three magic weapons to enhance the whole thing). It's an extraordinarily complex weapon (as demonstrated by the fact that you needed three paragraphs to document its function), but I think you've done a good job keeping it well organized and brief. I like the idea of injuring yourself with the weapon if you're not familiar with it or rushing a restring attempt. The little cutting blade is absolutely genius for those panic moments. I also appreciate the fact that it's not a default part of the beguiler kit, you have to invest in the EWP to use it to its full potential.

    Over all these are some pretty neat changes that give the beguiler a bit more martial oomph, but I think at some points you may have overstepped. Even though I love the idea of a beguiler who gets dirty with his weapons, you can't make one that does every job while maintaining the superb gaming balance you've crafted thus far with the conversion. Just my $0.02.

    PS Gina is yelling at me to let you know that she approves of magical beast companions and she would spend every night's downtime brushing her blinkwolf's glittering fur.


    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
  • Magical beast companions are awesomesauce! Still, I feel like they might be too much as a full druid AC (even with the short list of choices). I feel like it might be good to give the AC to them at level 4 (with effective druid level = beguiler level -3) like a ranger.
  • I had been considering bringing down the effective druid level while putting together the new companions. I'll take a second look at how the archetype might look with that kind of change.

    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
  • Enlightened strategist seems broken to me, even if it was cut down to just Dex or Str. I love the idea of a martial beguiler, but this just feels like you're giving away too much. It basically gives you the option to take a ranger combat style feat every time you can pick up a feat. I also worry that it would make a 1 level dip in beguiler too tempting for a martial class just to open up things like Str-based TWF builds without having to be a slayer or ranger.
  • I don't think the dipping is a big issue, since few martials carry around high Intelligence scores, but I can see your point about the ranger class feature.

    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
  • Morithil duelist looks off the chain. I agree with Sylver, lighter weapons should equal easier handling. It's also nice because it means you don't have to rely on sawtooth sabers for an epic TWF build now. Still I can't help but wonder if it should be scaled back a bit too. I'm thinking something along the lines of working for a single weapon type, or maybe just weapons that beguilers are automatically proficient with? The more I think about it the less happy I am about having beguilers running around dual-wielding bastard swords as light weapons (with EWP), or two of the many polearms that deal slashing damage.
  • Neither bastard swords, nor any of the polearms work with weapon finesse, so they wouldn't actually work with morithil duelist.

    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
  • I like the razor style chain, it's interesting but not overly powerful. Razor's step is a neat dimensional dervish alternative and the shadow flavor is thematically appreciated. My only question is: why does razor's step work on shadow walk instead of shadow step? Given the name, it could even be a typo?
  • That was a mistake, its meant to be shadow step, not shadow walk. Not sure how I mixed that up.

    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
  • I remember the razorbow concept from 3.5, but I'm not sure whether it was homebrew or from one of the infinite splatbooks WotC put out. I like the idea of this, a swiss army knife weapon with a hefty cost (especially when you have to pay the cost of three magic weapons to enhance the whole thing). It's an extraordinarily complex weapon (as demonstrated by the fact that you needed three paragraphs to document its function), but I think you've done a good job keeping it well organized and brief. I like the idea of injuring yourself with the weapon if you're not familiar with it or rushing a restring attempt. The little cutting blade is absolutely genius for those panic moments. I also appreciate the fact that it's not a default part of the beguiler kit, you have to invest in the EWP to use it to its full potential
  • Thanks, I'm pretty happy with how it worked out.


    Ertw, have you ever considered an Eldritch Heritage style feat that would grant first level order powers to a beguiler at a reduced effective level?


    ertw wrote:
    Neither bastard swords, nor any of the polearms work with weapon finesse, so they wouldn't actually work with morithil duelist.

    A little effortless lace can allow the bastard sword build to work, but you're right about the polearms.


    SylverFox wrote:
    Ertw, have you ever considered an Eldritch Heritage style feat that would grant first level order powers to a beguiler at a reduced effective level?

    There are a fair number of powerful order powers, even at 1st level. I'd be wary of that kind of feat because I wouldn't want a character running around with combos like paralyzing touch and stygian step.

    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
    ertw wrote:
    Neither bastard swords, nor any of the polearms work with weapon finesse, so they wouldn't actually work with morithil duelist.
    A little effortless lace can allow the bastard sword build to work, but you're right about the polearms.

    Effortless lace was an approach I hadn't considered. Let me consider what could be done about that issue and get back to you in a day or two.


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    I found this conversion from a link in the discussion in the Trickster product pages and I am really glad I didn't have put down any money for that when this gem is available for free. It's expertly put together and full of awesome options. I have one question, what's the difference between the main conversion document and provisional update?


    Gig Mac wrote:
    I found this conversion from a link in the discussion in the Trickster product pages and I am really glad I didn't have put down any money for that when this gem is available for free. It's expertly put together and full of awesome options. I have one question, what's the difference between the main conversion document and provisional update?

    I'm glad you're enjoying the conversion. I'm sure the trickster is a fine product, but I'm always happy to get more players to give me feedback on the beguiler.

    As for your question: The main conversion document is the "current state" of the conversion; it has been playtested and is currently working roughly as intended. The provisional update is a "future state" of the conversion; ideas that are being floated for review and playtesting.


    ertw wrote:
    SylverFox wrote:
    Ertw, have you ever considered an Eldritch Heritage style feat that would grant first level order powers to a beguiler at a reduced effective level?
    There are a fair number of powerful order powers, even at 1st level. I'd be wary of that kind of feat because I wouldn't want a character running around with combos like paralyzing touch and stygian step.

    Maybe it could just be something for archetypes that drop order powers, then?


    SylverFox wrote:
    ertw wrote:
    SylverFox wrote:
    Ertw, have you ever considered an Eldritch Heritage style feat that would grant first level order powers to a beguiler at a reduced effective level?
    There are a fair number of powerful order powers, even at 1st level. I'd be wary of that kind of feat because I wouldn't want a character running around with combos like paralyzing touch and stygian step.
    Maybe it could just be something for archetypes that drop order powers, then?

    That might be a possibility.


    ertw wrote:
    SylverFox wrote:
    ertw wrote:
    SylverFox wrote:
    Ertw, have you ever considered an Eldritch Heritage style feat that would grant first level order powers to a beguiler at a reduced effective level?
    There are a fair number of powerful order powers, even at 1st level. I'd be wary of that kind of feat because I wouldn't want a character running around with combos like paralyzing touch and stygian step.
    Maybe it could just be something for archetypes that drop order powers, then?
    That might be a possibility.

    Awesome


    Guild Apprenticeship:

    Guild Apprenticeship

    Despite gaining her abilities outside of the guild's framework, this beguiler has sought out the training of one of its orders.

    Prerequisites: Skill Focus with one of the class skills granted to the order selected for this feat, 3rd-level beguiler, character must be granted a sigil by a beguiler guildmaster.

    Benefit: The beguiler selects one order and gains the 1st level order power granted by her chosen order. For the purposes of using that power, she treats her effective beguiler level as half her character level. She does not gain any of the other abilities associated with her chosen order. Furthermore, if the beguiler possesses the arcane inborn class feature, she uses her Charisma score and modifier (rather than Intelligence) to determine the number of daily uses or save DCs of this ability.

    Special: A character who already possesses the order patronage class feature gains no benefit from this feat. If an archetype replaces all order spells and powers it is treated as having replaced order patronage.


    ertw wrote:
    ** spoiler omitted **

    How would this interact with things that require membership in an order, like the bonus effects of the beguiler's raiment? Also I'm curious as to why you went with level/2 instead of level-2 for the advancement?


    SylverFox wrote:
    ertw wrote:
    ** spoiler omitted **
    How would this interact with things that require membership in an order, like the bonus effects of the beguiler's raiment? Also I'm curious as to why you went with level/2 instead of level-2 for the advancement?

    I imagine the feat would allow a natural beguiler to qualify for the set bonuses, I'll add some language to clarify this is the case.

    The level/2 advancement was meant to limit options to dip into beguiler to get access to the more powerful powers I mentioned in an earlier post.


    You could also have a feat that grants the 7th level order power after 14 levels, too.


    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
    You could also have a feat that grants the 7th level order power after 14 levels, too.

    While most of the second tier order powers would be alright to open up, but I don't feel comfortable giving wide access to death blow. That's why I've specifically avoided putting together a power akin to improved eldritch heritage.


    ertw wrote:
    Penumbral Shadow wrote:
    You could also have a feat that grants the 7th level order power after 14 levels, too.
    While most of the second tier order powers would be alright to open up, but I don't feel comfortable giving wide access to death blow. That's why I've specifically avoided putting together a power akin to improved eldritch heritage.

    I don't really think that would necessarily be the end of the world, but it's your conversion.


    I've just updated the provisional update again.

  • Elusive wildling cleaned up a little, moved some powers around in terms of levels and made each component of nature's gift its own class ability.
  • New feats discussed above have been added, removed Enlightened Strategist.
  • Two new magic items: the Dead Man's Vest, and the Trollstalker's Maw
  • One new spell added: Tormented Reconditioning
  • One blank page added to the end of the document because I'm too tired to keep wrestling with Word to get rid of it.


  • Tormented reconditioning is definitely the power level the beguiler deserves for a 9th level enchantment spell.


    SylverFox wrote:
    Tormented reconditioning is definitely the power level the beguiler deserves for a 9th level enchantment spell.

    Thanks, it's the strongest option I've come up with thus far for the beguiler, but I figured a powerful 9th level spell on a full caster class isn't going to make or break the balance of the beguiler.

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