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Using Detect Magic to sweep rooms to find loot and/or traps is a time-honored tradition in Pathfinder. Keep in mind that it takes several rounds for them to find out where the magic is coming from specifically, even if the Detect Magic sweep informs them of magic.
Read the rules regarding Detect Magic carefully. Its good but not as good as players think.
I guess the Wizard is casting and in the middle of the group?
If the PCs in front have any magic then you get a positive...
And critters don't have to sit in "Location 12b" while the party faff around, they can move to the action and maybe catch the PCs unawares as they try and focus on the source of the magic ping...
Also, the way I deal with stuff that I don't want them to find is just to say nondetection is an optional prerequisite, but if that prerequisite is filled, then the trap (or whatever other item) acts as if it had permanent nondetection spell on it. There. Solved the #1 complaint about Detect magic being overpowered as a cantrip.
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Disguise your magic traps as magic loot.
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Or... the bad guys know what those meddling adventures are up to and have started to make more liberal use of Magic Aura to be more thorough in their trap-setting.
Or, as Detect magic is directional, placing a thin sheet of lead so that will cover your trap from the direction from which the PC will probably come.
Note than maintaining concentration is a standard action, and using a standard action and move every round count as a shuffle for the overland movement rules. I.e. it is tiring in the long term. The overland movement rules allow you to shuffle for 1 hour before having to stop.
Have the BBEG's minions use it against them to spot them easily.
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There is no need to go out of your way as a GM to deliberately make things difficult for players. As in 90% of "OMG this is overpowered" it seems that way because certain rules built into the game are being ignored making it appear so.
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1. have a dialogue with your players. Explain the issue as you see it, listen openly to their side. Try to find a middle ground
2. make some magic harder to find. This is entirely in your purview as the GM and you don't have to do it for EVERY trap and piece of loot, but you can certainly thwart some of their uses of Detect Magic
3. if the abuse continues completely unabated, decide what your baseline is. Also decide what's really upsetting you; is it their abuse of the spell and the rules, or is it that their use of this spell is revealing what you don't want them to see?
Ultimately you are the GM and can decide how effective their spell is.
Consider the lowly kobold: they claim draconic heritage and many sources say sorcerers are common among this race. They also build a lot of traps. So; they're used to dealing with magi and making traps with spells like detect magic in mind. It stands to reason then that, if they have a sorcerer on hand to help them make their magic traps they could have things like:
- a thin sheet of lead
- magic aura
- nondetection
- distractions such as loud noises or flashing lights that provoke concentration checks
It takes 3 rounds of concentration on the same 60ft cone to determine where each magic aura is located.
Don't forget:
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
That's a lot of very valid ways to block stuff. Also, you could really mess with them by placing a lot of permanent Light spells in every room. Detect Magic? You bet, there are 40 in this room.
You mean your players didn't realize the chandelier wasn't filled with candles but with dozens of permanent light spells?
Watch them drive themselves crazy with all the false positives.
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Watch them drive themselves crazy with all the false positives.
On the note of false positives, the orc witch doctor in the tribe my PCs were fighting liked casting magic aura on stones and throwing them into the latrine.
"You come across what looks like an outhouse, the raw stench is nearly over-powering."
Bard- I cast detect magic, if I don't detect any thing I say we skip it.
Party: Agreed
Bard: Concentration check? Smells that bad, huh? I succeed...crap. Sorry guys, nothing (Rolls Bluff).
If players want to spend unlimited amounts of time doing stuff, that's fine. This is why random encounter checks were created. You know, those things that don't provide treasure but do provide opportunities for players to spend precious resources like arrows, spells, healing . . . and the noise of combat means MORE random encounter rolls are made. Or those random encounters run away to warn others, setting the PCs up for a APL +5 CR encounter. Sure, take your time, be careful. My monsters have all the time in the world.
Furthermore, if the bad guys know the PCs are in da dungeon, why are the bad guys not either packing up and leaving (taking all the fun treasure with them) or setting ambushes to make sure these intruders are eliminated?
GMs seem to forget that bad guys are more than just stats on paper; they have their own motivations and desires, and one of those desires is most certainly to live longer (with more riches) than the PCs.
So let them have unlimited detect magics, because the time spent focusing means those nasty little goblins get into ambush position with a Take 20 option, while the chieftain grabs the most valuable loot and heads for the hills.
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If players want to spend unlimited amounts of time doing stuff, that's fine. This is why random encounter checks were created. You know, those things that don't provide treasure but do provide opportunities for players to spend precious resources like arrows, spells, healing . . . and the noise of combat means MORE random encounter rolls are made. Or those random encounters run away to warn others, setting the PCs up for a APL +5 CR encounter. Sure, take your time, be careful. My monsters have all the time in the world.
Furthermore, if the bad guys know the PCs are in da dungeon, why are the bad guys not either packing up and leaving (taking all the fun treasure with them) or setting ambushes to make sure these intruders are eliminated?
GMs seem to forget that bad guys are more than just stats on paper; they have their own motivations and desires, and one of those desires is most certainly to live longer (with more riches) than the PCs.
So let them have unlimited detect magics, because the time spent focusing means those nasty little goblins get into ambush position with a Take 20 option, while the chieftain grabs the most valuable loot and heads for the hills.
Because Players are under the (false) impression that everything in the scenario is there purely to be killed and must sit around waiting to be slaughtered and do nothing to improve their sorry lot.
Cannon Fodder which thinks/reacts to a situation is unfair!
So let them have unlimited detect magics, because the time spent focusing means those nasty little goblins get into ambush position with a Take 20 option, while the chieftain grabs the most valuable loot and heads for the hills.
Just a bit of clarification, I'm not sure what your Gobos are doing, but they probably can't take 20 on it.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So, like wise I have a party that can cast 0 level spells but the detect magic becomes very abusive to the point that they are doing it at every corner.... Hens the rules say unlimited use of castings....
Is there a point when roll playing and getting away with rule abuse of the system? Even Magical traps and items are discovered...
Uhggg Really am starting to enjoy pathfinder.
It's only "abuse" if it's not what a competent person in-universe would do. If I lived in a world where I could detect potentially life-threatening hazards at will, and I was in a situation where I was trying to traverse a deadly dungeon (or other hostile environment), you're damn straight I'd be making full use of my ability to prevent my own death. Unless I'm trying to be stealthy or am in a time crunch, I'm gonna be running that spell all the time; I'm rather attached to my alive-ness.
If you start looking at the PCs as people—complete with normal self-preservation instincts—then it becomes pretty obvious that liberal use of detect magic is far from "abusive".
So, like wise I have a party that can cast 0 level spells but the detect magic becomes very abusive to the point that they are doing it at every corner.... Hens the rules say unlimited use of castings....
Is there a point when roll playing and getting away with rule abuse of the system? Even Magical traps and items are discovered...
Uhggg Really am starting to enjoy pathfinder.
It's only "abuse" if it's not what a competent person in-universe would do. If I lived in a world where I could detect potentially life-threatening hazards at will, and I was in a situation where I was trying to traverse a deadly dungeon (or other hostile environment), you're damn straight I'd be making full use of my ability to prevent my own death. Unless I'm trying to be stealthy or am in a time crunch, I'm gonna be running that spell all the time; I'm rather attached to my alive-ness.
If you start looking at the PCs as people—complete with normal self-preservation instincts—then it becomes pretty obvious that liberal use of detect magic is far from "abusive".
Right, the GM must account for normal types of behavior. In a world in which detect magic exist and it usage is well known and there is easy access people will contructs things to foil it where possible. Just think of it as a natural consequence.
Everyone and their mother can detect magic, people hide magical objects such that they cannot be found with that spell. Same goes for traps. Why can't a trap be recessed behind a foot thick stone wall (seems like that a normal thickness for castles walls to me) or a stone facade with a 1" thick metal plate, or thin lead plate. Anyone building a magical trap would probably have common knowledge of the easy ways to detect them, and how to get around it.
And why not use non-magical traps in front of the magical one?
Although that does fall into the "screwing with the players" category slightly...
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Everyone and their mother can detect magic, people hide magical objects such that they cannot be found with that spell. Same goes for traps. Why can't a trap be recessed behind a foot thick stone wall (seems like that a normal thickness for castles walls to me) or a stone facade with a 1" thick metal plate, or thin lead plate. Anyone building a magical trap would probably have common knowledge of the easy ways to detect them, and how to get around it.
A external or load bearing wall of a noble mansion build with medieval technology will be about 3 foot thick. I work in one and cell phones have some trouble with our walls.
A castle outer walls? About 10'.Plenty of space for hidden recess.
You have to hold them to the restrictions of the spell. They can only maintain it as long as they concentrate on it, it only extends out to 60 feet, and once detecting an aura they have to stop and concentrate to narrow down the source and type. You can't just wander around in a detect-magic daze all day hoping you stumble upon something magical.
Plus it's blocked by "1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt". So in other words you usually can't sense into the next room. Some magic also leaves a lingering aura that can interfere with the reading, if you need a DM-fiat reason to mess them up.
To put it simply, the spell is only meant to be used when you're in the immediate vicinity of the object / effect you suspect is magical, and you can take the time to confirm your hunch. I think the rules bear this out.
Frankly I like unlimited 0 level spells, even detect magic. I like to picture wizards, away from adventures, just constantly surrounded by effects. Like without even thinking the wizard wakes up, casts prestidigitation for a "shower" gestures at various pieces of clothing that fly onto him (mage hand) followed by his spellbook hovering over to him to float there as a soft glow appears in th recesses of the ceiling above (Light).
I think it's natural that spellcasters would want to use such infinite resources to resolve simple issues. A fighter has permanent use of Power Attack; it never runs out. His go-to then would be to think "how can I Power Attack my way through this" while he destroys people, doors, and anything else in his way. Well, the wizard has Detect Magic. Does Power Attack work in every situation? No, so neither should Detect Magic.
And before people yell at me I know PA and DM aren't an exact comparison, but you get the gist of what I'm saying here...
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So... Where is the abuse part?
Just a bit of clarification, I'm not sure what your Gobos are doing, but they probably can't take 20 on it.
If you're gonna give the goblins a whole bunch of time to prepare, then they're gonna eventually get it right. So yes, if you wait around and let them create the perfect ambush, they will. Sometimes, logic trumps the written rules.
If you're gonna give the goblins a whole bunch of time to prepare, then they're gonna eventually get it right.
"A big explosion today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow."
I found the Paladin detect evil at-will to be extremely effective in detecting ambushes.
Er, the paladin's at-will ability reads, "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range."
Because they were granting an at-will 1st-level spell to a class, they put specific restrictions on it: You have to be focusing on something, you don't get the cone-o-detect a cleric would.
So detecting ambushes is right out.
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I found the Paladin detect evil at-will to be extremely effective in detecting ambushes.Er, the paladin's at-will ability reads, "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range."
Because they were granting an at-will 1st-level spell to a class, they put specific restrictions on it: You have to be focusing on something, you don't get the cone-o-detect a cleric would.
So detecting ambushes is right out.
Actually you get both. You get the spell per the first sentence AND you get the specific ability per the second sentence ;-)
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The characters have no reason to move faster because you haven't provided them a reason.
A fully fleshed out dungeon would have wandering monsters, enemy controlling the cave/stronghold preparing a trap for the intruders, other adventurers who want to get to the loot first, etc.
If there is no time crunch, then there is no reason to NOT take as long as possible to detect everything.
The Paladin gets the best ability of all. He can cast a normal Detect Evil in a 60 foot cone as a standard action and go through the three round process or he can use a move action to instantly know if someone is evil. The latter allows him to detect and attack in the same round.
I do not have any issue with the liberal use of Detect Magic by characters. A DM can use the additional time to roll more random encounter checks if he desires. Also, if some party members have spell effect running then it will take away from the duration of those spells. So I do not see this as an abuse or an issue that even merits much discussion. Especially with the shenanigans that some try to pull with spells like Mage Hand and Prestidigitation.
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Traps are a legacy mechanic being phased out of published adventures
???
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In general, I like that 0 level spells are unlimited, and sometimes actually wish some of them had a little bit more oomph to them. Not to push them up to the level of At-Will Powers, but to make them a little more viable, particularly on the Divine Side.
I almost feel that Guidance, Resistance, Vigor, & Virtue could probably be rolled into one Orison/Cantrip that allow you to give a +1 to one thing and call it good. Detect Alignment and Undead could probably also be 0 Level spells I think.
Of all of the spells that I've seen "abused" or that could be easily abused, Light/Arcane Mark, Mage Hand, Mending, and Prestidigitation are the ones mostly.
Light/Arcane Mark with the Magus, though I cant remember the reasoning exactly, it's been a while.
Mage Hand (corner case) because a lot of players, generally new to the game, want to use it for much more than what it's meant to do. One recent new player wanted to use it to grab 5lbs worth of air to shove it into someone's wound and kill them, for example. Prestidigitation is kind of the same deal, and it's more the people than it is the spell, trying to push it outside of the spell's bounds.
Mending on the other hand, can be an issue, and generally starts out as garbage, and then gets really good later on with CLs. "Oh the BBEG ripped of the corner of the paper obscuring the signature, let me fix that." "Oh the villain sundered the key so w can't follow, just give me 10 mins." The casting time can be an issue, and is a great balancing factor, but clever players can do some interesting things with it.
Tactically, Spark also could be an issue, but in my opinion, it's one of the best examples of what a ) level spell should look like, both interesting and cool, very iconic for a spellcaster (walking into a room and the candles light themselves), and open enough to allow in combat uses. Potential abuse (not sure if it's too far though), is when people want to Ready it to make an Alchemist's bomb or Gunslingers ammo blow up in their faces, or line the area with oil and burn the crap out of enemies when they run through it, or things like that. (most of those things can be done with mundane gear or similar spells)
All in all though, I like 0 level spells being infinite, and wish some of them where a bit better, (stabilize having some limited actual healing for example).
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Is there a reason all the traps are magical? You have have mechanical traps as well.
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Traps are a legacy mechanic being phased out of published adventures???
Not sure if this is what they meant, but the "we need Rogues because of Traps, because we need Rogues, because we need traps, etc. . ." has been going away in favor of the original way traps where done. They usually had a way or ways based on the specific trap that anyone could use to figure out and bypass, not just Rogues. They have also introduced things like Haunts, which are sort of a blend of a trap and an undead encounter, but more story based, and while clerics and divine characters have a small edge, everyone can play a part in preventing them.
The general consensus I hear (not proof, just talk), is that the traditional d20ish style trap is both boring and annoying. It generally has the party on hold while one character (if they happen to be in your party) gets to act, and mostly only there so that character gets to shine. There are two systems of thought from there, either they are too weak, and at most a minor setback or they are too strong if you do not have a Rogue (or a few other classes now) that can get past them, (or a Schrottenger's Wizard), leaving the party at a dead end.
On the other hand, Haunts allow everyone to take part, because there is a way to lay the haunt to rest that does not require a single class, class feature, or specific skill.
Just have traps break LOS and you're good. Sheet of lead, trap is around a corner, etc.
Why does it ALWAYS have to be "a sheet of lead?" How about"
- a hydraulic push spell inside a huge ball made of wood (3'thick). The party can't detect the spell but once they trigger it the wooden sphere shoots at them dealing damage like a light cannon ball
- a stone statue with a metal tube conducts a lightning bolt trap embedded in the wall. When triggered the spell (behind a foot of stone) shoots out of it's open mouth
- a glowing green rock from an asteroid is fixed to a chain and contained in a lead-lined chest. Once open the device is magically thrown on the neck of the wearer where it saps their strength (Ray of Enfeeblement every round) until they are vitrually powerless. This trap is referred to as the Superman 1 Lex Luthor Special. "Lead! He can't see through LEAD!" "And Kryptonite...will KILL him!" Man I love that movie...
If you're gonna give the goblins a whole bunch of time to prepare, then they're gonna eventually get it right. So yes, if you wait around and let them create the perfect ambush, they will. Sometimes, logic trumps the written rules.
Just a bit of clarification, I'm not sure what your Gobos are doing, but they probably can't take 20 on it.
How do they know when they've gotten it "right"? Characters don't know when they've rolled a 20. Characters don't roll. Players roll. If you're hiding in advance from an enemy you know is coming or something like that you can attempt to hide in the shadows in the corner, but that doesn't mean you know when you're absolutely perfectly as hidden as you can be.
You're right, logic can trump rules. But in this case, the rules follow logic.
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Now I had this same concern until we (a friend and I) sat down and took a long hard look at Detect Magic and what it actually does.
It detects magical auras. That's it. So then we had to determine what actually creates a magic aura, or what they come from. Easily enough, the table at the bottom of the spell description tells you the two sources of auras. A functioning spell or a magic item.
So, this is where it started to get dicey, we had to look at whether a trap is a functioning spell. First we looked at spells and deduced that a spell with an instantaneous duration (a lot of trap spells) was not a functioning spell. The idea is that it becomes a functioning spell only once the trigger is activated and finishes the spell causing it to take effect. Basically a trap with an instantaneous duration is incomplete until the trigger is met at which time the result takes effect.
Secondly, even if it was a spell with a duration, then they would still only be limited to finding out the location, strength, and school of magic. Nothing about there being a trap or what kind or even how it is triggered. Even then they only get that after three rounds of concentrating (which is a standard action in and of itself), and the school only with a successful Knowledge Arcana check.
So, if I had a trap with a fireball, triggered by the alarm spell, they would:
Round 1, know auras were present in the cone (which could very well include their allies magic items).
Round 2, know the number of different magical auras and the power of only the most potent aura
Round 3, the strength and location of each (in the traps case, the area of effect of the alarm that is within the cone and that the aura is faint). And with a DC 16 Knowledge Arcana know that that belongs to a spell from the school of Abjuration.
They could also then make a DC 21 Knowledge Arcana to identify the spell effect that is in place, and see that it is alarm, but that tells them nothing of the trap.
How do they know when they've gotten it "right"? Characters don't know when they've rolled a 20. Characters don't roll. Players roll. If you're hiding in advance from an enemy you know is coming or something like that you can attempt to hide in the shadows in the corner, but that doesn't mean you know when you're absolutely perfectly as hidden as you can be.
You're right, logic can trump rules. But in this case, the rules follow logic.
But the logic came first. In this case, I rule that goblins (and other critters of modest intelligence/wisdom or greater) are smart enough to have areas where they will lead attackers which give the defenders an advantage. If you don't rule that way, that's fine. "YMMV" is how the kids term it, I believe.
OP, you've got some great advice. Post back after applying it and let us know what you encounter.
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Okay, I was trying to remember how we realized it wasn't 'functioning', and went back to where we found it under the Duration section of the chapter on magic.
Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
A magic trap is a pre-made effect. So if the spell was functioning, the duration would run out on most of them before the trap was ever set off. Like it says, when the time is up the magic goes away, so there would be no aura, or else the timer on the duration would be running.
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
The bolded part tells us that the energy, therefore the aura, is only there at the exact moment the spell is going off. Not before, and only afterward as a lingering aura based on the power of the effect (which at its longest is 1d6 days for a 10th+ level spell).
Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.
You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.
This means these spells are only present and functioning when being concentrated on, which takes a standard action, and no other spells can be cast while maintaining the concentration. So unless whoever built the trap is there concentrating on it and no longer casting spells, the spell it not functioning until triggered.
All of this led us to deduce that a trap using any of these effects is not currently functioning until it has been triggered. Otherwise the trap would be created and then run out either instantaneously, after the duration expires, or the caster stops concentrating.
Some spells can still be present, if built with durations of permanent or until discharged (until all the charges have been used), so it can find some traps, but not all of them.
To top it all off, if Detect Magic was intended to find magic traps, why is there a 2nd level cleric spell called Find Traps that only gives you a bonus to perception checks, and a chance to notice them within 10 feet?
Well, darn, I found a flaw in my assessment. There are two types of magic traps, spell traps and magic device traps. One is a spell in place (identifiable aura), and the other requires Craft Wondrous Item (implying that a magic device trap is in fact a Magic Item).
So, it seems both auras would stand out, but the magic device trap would still require 3 rounds of thorough examination, which could set off the trap.
Nonetheless, all you get from Detect Magic is an aura, and with a roll the school.
Despite which even evocation has non-offensive spells, like light, dancing lights, continual flame to name just a few that one could possibly find often in most situations where there are also magic traps.
Edit: Time can still play a heavy factor. You could stop and take 3 rounds every single time you see an aura. So make sure the person moving half speed (by using their standard to always be concentrating or recasting) by maintaining a constant Detect Magic is never walking behind anyone carrying a magic item (like the Fighter's weapon or armor).
Player: I cast detect magic.
GM: You sense magic.
Player: Concentrate.
Player: Concentrate.
Player: Make Spellcraft check.
This is great. I'd make them slowly repeat "Concentraaaate..." over the span of the six-second round.
For the "hide the aura" part, I think the magic trap need to have a Line of Sight/Effect to actually target the unfortunate who triggered it.
Still, maybe you can think of a trigger that reveal the magic part of the trap when it is activated, something that a lot of people would do when they know that a single magic trick as the power to make (a lot) of you money go to waste. Anyway, traps are a funnier when you try to describe the apparent mechanism, and let the player try to understand what the trap is supposed to do.
Aardvark, I always considered magic traps as big magic items, so I think it should have an aura... But I have no rules to support it I suppose.
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Lots of magic traps have a trigger of being seen. So even if a party was detecting for magic, as soon as they saw it, it would go off! Only the Rogue (or something else with trapfinding) can approach this trap without triggering it.
Beyond that, do what everyone else said. Put in thin sheets of lead. Use completely non magical traps like fallaway floors, pressure plates triggering the ceiling falling. Have the bad guys put an item out with magic aura, or something relatively meaningless like a +1 shuryken under a cloth, so you can hear the players casting and searching things and the monsters say "Ah ha! Adventurers! Let's ambush them!"
If the players are trying to abuse the rules, keep in mind level 0 spells are level 0 because they're supposed to be things that don't matter if they are unlimited. Start messing with them, but don't shoot them down. Keep in mind that anything the players can think of, the villains can probably think of too.