Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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"A hunter may teach her companion hunter's tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype instead of standard tricks."
What do people think about this, are any of the skirmisher's tricks worth taking?
It is good, but we are still waiting for the final wording of the errata document, for an animal companion can IIRC use it 1/2 HD + WIS mod times per day.
It's good, but you have to announce that you are using it before you make your attack roll, and if you miss, you daily use is wasted.
My animal companion usually learns to inflict shaken, entangled and -2 to attack rolls, everything that affects the animal companion (like an extra attack) doesn't seem to work unless your animal companion has an animal companion.. and that isn't easy to do.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Question. If my ranger's horse companion knows all tricks that are part of Combat Training purpose, does that horse count as combat trained, or do I have to wait until my ranger is high enough level?
Well if your Horse has learned the combat training purpose, or has alternatively learned all the separate tricks, it counts as combat trained in my opinion. Note that horses are somewhat of an exception here, only animal companions with INT 2 and more. can actually learn 6 tricks (excluding bonus tricks from being a level 6+ Hunter or Druid).
Horses are smart ^^
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Ranger skirmisher tricks on the hunters companion are usable 1/2 HD + wis modifier per day as Sebastian already mentioned.
Edit: Found the post from the Design Team here
As far as useful tricks, everyone has different tastes I think.
My hunter's mammoth has been taught the following skirmisher tricks:
I forgot I had this during the last time I played her, so I ended up taking damage from a 20 ft. fall, but after that it was a lot easier for the rest of the players to come down, as we turned a 20 ft. fall into a 10 ft. drop onto a mammoth, and then a 10 ft. drop down to the ground.
Making an enemy shaken for 1d4 rounds is awesome.
I like inflicting entangled conditions on enemies.
Both a way to get an enemy to use up attacks of oppertunity and being prone makes for an unhappy enemy usually.
Tricks I'm considering:
Just for the amusement factor. "Oh no-one knows how to talk with that creature? I can get my mammoth to do the talking ..." What's a mere -6 on bluff/diplomacy rolls when you have a mammoth doing the negotiations ;)
Other useful ones are:
Free aid another. Not bad.
Some extra maneuverability is always useful.
Stacks with other penalties on attack rolls for making an enemies to hit even lower.
While the -5 hurts, rerolling that 1 is always nice.
Extra attacks are always nice I think.
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I once made a list of animal companions by wisdom score.
There is 1 animal companion with a negative wisdom modifier:
Frog (9)
There are 9 animal companions with a wisdom modifier of 0:
Electric Eel and Pygmy Hippopotamus (10)
Auroch, Axebeak, Camel, Kangaroo, Lizard (Giant Chameleon), Pony and Yzobu (11)
There are 32 animal companions with 12 wisdom, and 29 with 13 for a total of 61. Not gonna list those :P
16 animal companions have wisdom 14 or 15:
Bird (Eagle/Hawk/Owl), Dinosaur (Dimorphodon), Dinosaur (Pteradon), Dire Bat, Lizard (Giant Gecko), Megafauna (Basilosaurus), Orca, Pterosaur (Quelzalcoatlus) and Ram with 14.
Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger), Dinosaur (Allosaurus), Dinosaur (Tyrannosaurus), Elk, Megafauna (Megaloceros), Stag and Vulture, Giant with 15.
There is one interesting animal companion who has both 13 and 14 wisdom, because it has 2 different entries:
Pterosaur (Dimorphodon) has 13 wisdom, while the Dinosaur (Dimorphodon) has 14. The Dino is from bestiary 4, while the Ptero is from pathfinder #37, Souls for Smuggler's Shiv.
If we check the verminious companions, those are low on wisdom. Only 3 of the 10 vermin companions have a wisdom bonus, the others have none (but no penalty either).
Nice list. Thanks for it.
Sadly that does little to change the go-to companions. Those that were the best before still come out good. And the poor frog will even find less friends than before.
A T-Rex with vital strike line would benefit greatly from second chance strike and/or vengeance strike.
I just thought of something... If skirmisher tricks can be taught to the companion - can you then "push" the companion to do skirmisher tricks it does not know?
Without Errata I would say yes? Here is what it says under handle animal for Push an Animal
"To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing."
Any skirmisher trick a hunter's animal companion is physically capable of performing should be allowed to attempt with a Push
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I just thought of something... If skirmisher tricks can be taught to the companion - can you then "push" the companion to do skirmisher tricks it does not know?
You are making the assumption that you actually have/can teach them to your companion. Since they have no listed handle animal DC, I would assume that you can access all the tricks.
Not actually that powerful since most hunters will have 2-4 favorite tricks, and it will be nice to have the other ones when you really need them.|
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I just thought of something... If skirmisher tricks can be taught to the companion - can you then "push" the companion to do skirmisher tricks it does not know?You are making the assumption that you actually have/can teach them to your companion. Since they have no listed handle animal DC, I would assume that you get to use everyone.
I hope you're being flippant because it's abundantly clear that this is definitely not the case.
A hunter may teach her companion hunter's tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype instead of standard tricks
Maybe I just misunderstood what you meant, but it looks like you meant that you can just use them without pushing/teaching or taking up any trick slots.
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Andreww,
The two skills are used in tandem for mounted characters. Ride is used to determine if you are knocked from your mount and for various actions the mount may need to use in combat. If you take a hit and fail a DC 5 ride check, you roll a d% based on what saddle you're using to see if you fall from your saddle. Since any class with the mount feature gets Ride as a class skill, most of the time, this can be negated by a single rank in the skill. Handle Animal is used to direct the animal to use tricks or to do something it might be able to. It's also used to teach tricks to the animal.
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I wonder if you would be willing/able to outline the differences between mounts and animal companions as regards how to control and make use of them in combat. I had this come up in a recent scenario where one PC was riding his war trained dog and it was unclear if Ride completely replaced the need for Handle Animal or not.
Just read through the Ride and Handle Animal skill descriptions. They cover entirely different utilities.
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Hi Flutter,
I wonder if you would be willing/able to outline the differences between mounts and animal companions as regards how to control and make use of them in combat. I had this come up in a recent scenario where one PC was riding his war trained dog and it was unclear if Ride completely replaced the need for Handle Animal or not.
There's a little table variation on that, but I think ride pretty much negates most of the need to make handle animal checks.
Most of the differences show up in the mounted combat section of the combat chapter. A few points.
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Ride: Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
__
Even if you limit "as you direct it" to movement, your combat trained mount has defend and is set to defend you by default, so you're moving right next to a threat and mr wolfy should respond with big sharp pointy teeth.
Reading the rules another way would make mundane combat trained mounts entire worthless, since their knight would need to spend their move action telling their steed to attack.
You would probably only need to command the animal to attack if you wanted to hit different targets, or MAYBE in a big crowd of bad guys.
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There's a little table variation on that, but I think ride pretty much negates most of the need to make handle animal checks.Hi Flutter,
I wonder if you would be willing/able to outline the differences between mounts and animal companions as regards how to control and make use of them in combat. I had this come up in a recent scenario where one PC was riding his war trained dog and it was unclear if Ride completely replaced the need for Handle Animal or not.
I agree, however, I think you missed something, or maybe I'm not understanding your interpretation.
"Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action." DC 10. It's never a move action to tell your steed to attack (unless you meant you're doing it via Handle Animal instead in which case it would be--but you should probably never attempt it via Handle Animal when you can do it via Ride for free).
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"Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action." DC 10. It's never a move action to tell your steed to attack (unless you meant you're doing it via Handle Animal instead in which case it would be--but you should probably never attempt it via Handle Animal when you can do it via Ride for free).
I've seen that read as both
[With a dc 10 ride check you can] direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle
and
If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle [via a handle animal check], you can still make your own attack or attacks normally
Which is why I like the defend option, sidesteps the legal wrangling.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I just thought of something... If skirmisher tricks can be taught to the companion - can you then "push" the companion to do skirmisher tricks it does not know?You are making the assumption that you actually have/can teach them to your companion. Since they have no listed handle animal DC, I would assume that you get to use everyone.I hope you're being flippant because it's abundantly clear that this is definitely not the case.
A hunter may teach her companion hunter's tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype instead of standard tricksMaybe I just misunderstood what you meant, but it looks like you meant that you can just use them without pushing/teaching or taking up any trick slots.
No actually I was not flippant at all, but let my explain myself.
You are currently mixing the current version of the text with the unfinished version of the Errata, at this point in time we don't know which text this will replace (if any).
We really want to avoid the situation where a hunter can actually push his animal companion to do a skirmisher trick.
Every regular trick requires a handle animal DC to teach it to your animal companion, the skirmisher tricks do not have a listed DC.
As written in the current version of the ACG, you might not be able to sucessfully teach those tricks without succedding on a handle animal check... and since we have no listed DC.... well expect table variation.
I don't actually mind using trick slots for things like the skirmisher tricks, but my reading of the situation would sidestep the "teaching your companion a trick" part of the problem.
The whole situation really seems like an editing mistake/last minute addition to me, thus the confusion for the last couple of months.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Ok, I see what you're saying. I thought you were saying that Hunter ACs could just natively do skirmisher tricks without being taught/pushed because of the line "I would assume that you get to use everyone".
Well the half had + wis mod limit is already quite an effective limitation, we will see what ends up in the errata (I think it is pretty likely that the new version is already at the printer and they just wait for it to become available. Not a huge fan of Paizo in that area).
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I've seen that read as both
[With a dc 10 ride check you can] direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle
and
If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle [via a handle animal check], you can still make your own attack or attacks normally
I can only read it as option #2. It's in standard if/then format:
If [make Handle check to attack],
Then [make Ride check to also attack]
Hey Guys maybe this is covered somewhere but I couldnt find it.
What Item slots does my Treant have?
Is it Biped?...... sorta?
Any help would be great.
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When listing the useful skirmisher tricks, no one mentioned surprise shift. With a flying mount it is awesome. When you get to the baddie you really don't want to be hit by. 5 foot (fly) in, both get your full attack, then surprise shift 45° up out of its melee range.
I don't think that's quite right, since flying up at 45° costs 10ft of movement and Surprise Shift only gives you 5ft.
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The main source for tricks are in the CRB under Handle Animal skill. Note there is one more trick in the CRB under the spell air walk.
Other tricks are on pages 8-9 of the Animal Archive.
The PFSRD has a mostly complete list under the Handle Animal skill.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Here is [b]PFSRD Animal Trick[/b] list.
There are some awesome ones in there!
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Figured I'd link to a new FAQ request over in the Rules Forum, since it pertains to this thread:
Pricing Mithral Armor for Unusual Creatures
I'd be much appreciative if you all paid it a visit =)
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Done.
I seriously hope that item cost mofifier is added afterwards.
The fullplate for Libi would otherwise become way too expensive.
(1.500x8) (size modifier) + 12.000 (noqual item cost modifier) + 150 masterwork = 24.150 gp vs (1.500 + 12.000 (noqual item cost modifier))x8 (size modifier) + 150 (masterwork) = 108.150 gp.
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Ooo! Can you post that exact comment over in the other thread? I suppose other special materials like Adamantine and Noqual would also be subject to that FAQ.
I'm of the firm belief that the modifier is added after the multiplier, and very cogent arguments for game balance, order of operations, and game terminology have been presented in the other threads I linked in that post.
(but we should take any further discussion on this matter over to the other thread)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Ok, a little weird question:
Since Tiger and Lion use same statistics as animal companions, is their hybrid, known as Liger, possible to use as companion?
Seems like a pretty cut and dry reflavoring question. So yeah, expect table variation, and choose and animal in case it ever becomes relevant if your cat is a lion or a tiger....
And frankly if you are a Hunter, like my -1 it is pretty damn relevant when I want to use share shape
School transmutation (polymorph); Level ranger 3, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
EFFECT
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
DESCRIPTION
This spell functions as beast shape II, but you may only assume the form of an animal of a type identical to your animal companion or familiar. If your familiar or companion is not an animal, this spell has no effect.
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Liger should be possible, as well as Tigon.
I say this because the Animal Choices in parentheses appear to be suggestions in addition to the main entry.
"Badger (Wolverine)" is an option. This doesn't mean you can choose only a Wolverine, or only a Badger. You can choose either. You simply use the stats for "Badger".
"Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger)" is an option. This means you can choose Lion, Tiger, or "Big Cat". A Liger or Tigon is certainly a "Big Cat", as each of their parents could attest to.
So long as everyone automatically knows and can tell that you have a "Big Cat" you're not risking running afoul of the reskinning rules.
You should be good.
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I just wanted to share the rare in character appearance of one of the Druids Local branches. I just finished GMing a scenario, and had placed several animal companions down on the table. As soon as I remembered the four player adjustment, they promptly took their union-mandated break and walked off the map.
But, while I'm here and scrolling past the previous discussions about flight/mounted rules, does anyone have suggestions for quick table references (similar to the grapple flowcharts that show up every so often) for those two systems? I know I'd appreciate a relatively simple resource to help make sure I use those rules correctly as both a player and GM.
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I just wanted to share the rare in character appearance of one of the Druids Local branches. I just finished GMing a scenario, and had placed several animal companions down on the table. As soon as I remembered the four player adjustment, they promptly took their union-mandated break and walked off the map.
But, while I'm here and scrolling past the previous discussions about flight/mounted rules, does anyone have suggestions for quick table references (similar to the grapple flowcharts that show up every so often) for those two systems? I know I'd appreciate a relatively simple resource to help make sure I use those rules correctly as both a player and GM.
I made this. Hope it's useful.