This does need a FAQ my VL is currently saying that it is with in the rules to cast simulacrum off limited wish because it is on the summoner list as a lvl 5 spell.
Pathfinder Society needs an answer. We'll definitely get a FAQ now. *rolls eyes*
(Not a slight against you personally, VI, just a bit of social commentary on how Paizo seems to grant PFS preferential treatment when it comes to FAQs.)
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Suppose Paizo makes a new class with spellcasting capability and gives it it's own spell list. This theoretical class, called "Transformer" has Greater Polymorph as a 5th level Transformer spell.Interpretation A) says, "My wizard couldn't cast Limited Wish->Greater Polymorph yesterday, but today, Paizo released a new spell list, and suddenly, my wizard CAN cast Limited Wish->Greater Polymorph!"
Interpretation B) says, "My wizard couldn't cast Limited Wish->Greater Polymorph yesterday, and today, Paizo released a new class, but the new class's spell list doesn't affect my inability to cast Limited Wish->Greater Polymorph"I believe B) is correct by the absurdity of A).
The problem with this is that it already happens, and is not considered absurd, with every new spell that comes out.
Yesterday my wizard couldn't cast evil eye until I bought a copy of Ultimate Magic, and today I can. That's not considered absurd. Yesterday I couldn't cast eagle aerie but today I can. Every new publication changes what I can and can't do.
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However, those are entirely new spells. I'm talking about preexisting spells that the wizard couldn't cast.The problem with this is that it already happens, and is not considered absurd, with every new spell that comes out.
Yesterday my wizard couldn't cast evil eye until I bought a copy of Ultimate Magic, and today I can. That's not considered absurd. Yesterday I couldn't cast eagle aerie but today I can. Every new publication changes what I can and can't do.
Summoner. New potions of old spells just popping up everywhere.
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However, those are entirely new spells. I'm talking about preexisting spells that the wizard couldn't cast.The problem with this is that it already happens, and is not considered absurd, with every new spell that comes out.
Yesterday my wizard couldn't cast evil eye until I bought a copy of Ultimate Magic, and today I can. That's not considered absurd. Yesterday I couldn't cast eagle aerie but today I can. Every new publication changes what I can and can't do.
I agree that it's not the least bit absurd or overpowered. Having a summoner or "transformer" in the party rather than the wizard would have had a similar effect on the game, and that's to be expected since that's the way the system was designed. A wizard being able to do the same thing at the same or much later level does not break the game.
EDIT: I'm not saying that limited wish can do what's proposed, I think it's ambiguous enough to warrant a FAQ. All that I'm saying is that, if it could/can/does, it's not absurd or overpowered for it to be that way.
Presuming that 5th level cleric spells are considered balanced with each other (of similar power) then this:
"Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack"
From limited wish would indeed allow you to cast Plane Shift etc.
Unless you contend that all other 5th level cleric spells (that aren't on the sorc/wiz list) are clearly less powerful than plane shift.
I fall in the camp of "no, it's on your class list so you must cast it that way". And since it's on the class list as a higher level than can be replicated by limited wish, limited wish cannot replicate it.
However, I can easily see where ambiguity arrives and wouldn't mind official clarification. The above is merely my preference on how it should work.
I personally would be fine with either ruling.
I agree that it's not the least bit absurd or overpowered. Having a summoner or "transformer" in the party rather than the wizard would have had a similar effect on the game, and that's to be expected since that's the way the system was designed. A wizard being able to do the same thing at the same or much later level does not break the game.EDIT: I'm not saying that limited wish can do what's proposed, I think it's ambiguous enough to warrant a FAQ. All that I'm saying is that, if it could/can/does, it's not absurd or overpowered for it to be that way.
This is not true. Summoner max Casting level is 6 and doesn't get access to 5th level spells till 13.
A wizard gets access at 9. That is a huge disparity.
Huh? The wizard can't cast summoner spells until 13th-level, when he gets limited wish.
When does the summoner get access to 5th-level spells? 13th was it? Then how can it be broken?
Tell me this: If the summoner has the spell at those levels, and it doesn't break the game, then how does it break the game for the wizard to cast the same spell?
And if the summoner having it DOES break the game somehow, then that's a problem with the summoner and/or the spell, not the wizard.
However, those are entirely new spells. I'm talking about preexisting spells that the wizard couldn't cast.The problem with this is that it already happens, and is not considered absurd, with every new spell that comes out.
Yesterday my wizard couldn't cast evil eye until I bought a copy of Ultimate Magic, and today I can. That's not considered absurd. Yesterday I couldn't cast eagle aerie but today I can. Every new publication changes what I can and can't do.
I agree that it's not the least bit absurd or overpowered. Having a summoner or "transformer" in the party rather than the wizard would have had a similar effect on the game, and that's to be expected since that's the way the system was designed. A wizard being able to do the same thing at the same or much later level does not break the game.
EDIT: I'm not saying that limited wish can do what's proposed, I think it's ambiguous enough to warrant a FAQ. All that I'm saying is that, if it could/can/does, it's not absurd or overpowered for it to be that way.
A limited wish cannot do an equivalent level 13 top tier spell if it is 7th level.
Being able to do any of the summoner top tier level 13 spells like the 5th level summoner spell summon monster VII, which is equivalent to an otherwise barred wizard/sorcerer/cleric level 7 spell, and since you can do it without choosing to prepare the summon spell beforehand it is pretty powerful.
... It also takes 12 hours to cast as the level 5 summoner spell or the level 7 wizard spell.
So you are getting a spell reduced 11:59:54 seconds at a higher level then the spell selection was originally intended. Changing a spell to a quickened spell adds 3 levels how is this not outside the normal power level?
Is this not balanced by limited wish's expensive material component?
Violating level requirements (13th vs 9th) is why it's a pretty big deal.
Which is no more a big deal than if you simply had a summoner in the party to begin with!
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A limited wish cannot do an equivalent level 13 top tier spell if it is 7th level.
Being able to do any of the summoner top tier level 13 spells like the 5th level summoner spell summon monster VII, which is equivalent to an otherwise barred wizard/sorcerer/cleric level 7 spell, and since you can do it without choosing to prepare the summon spell beforehand it is pretty powerful.
I'm not totally familiar with the summoner list, but I would expect it to have 5th level spells that are not on the sorc/wiz list. Are you saying that limited wish shouldn't be able to duplicate those spells?
I don't think anyone would argue that limited wish couldn't cast righteous might, even though an inquisitor can't cast it until 13th level.
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No Dave, the argument is that because Simulacrum is still a 7th level spell despite being on the Summoner's spell list as a 5th level spell, it does not meet the requirement of being a Non-wizard spell of 5th or lower. Because it's still a 7th level wizard spell. Therefore it cannot be cast through limited wish. This matters, because you can then cast Simulacrum as a standard action.
So any summoner specific spells at 5th or lower are good to do! Just not the ones that also exist on the Wizard spell list higher than 6th.
Perhaps applying something like this FAQ:
Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?
The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."
For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
For spell-like abiities gained from a class, use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine. If the class doesn't cast spells, use the above rule for spell-like abilities from race or type.
Edit 7/15/13: Wording changed match the precedent in the universal monster rules for spell-like abilities.
Edit 9/23/13: Wording updated to clarify racial/type SLAs vs. class SLAs.
That spells must be taken from your spell list first, then wizard/sorcerer, cleric, druid, etc until you find a spell list that the spell is on.
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That would be an easy FAQ.
Though, I do strongly think that people are introducing this ambiguity where there is none. The wording on Limited with very specifically says
Non-sorcerer/wizard spell.
It doesn't say "5th level spell or lower from another spell list." It says "a 5th level spell or lower that isn't on the sorcerer/wizard spell list." Other abilities like Magical Past Life, which are similar, use different wording. Because they're different.
Limited wish has several ways to gauge the power of the wish to ensure that it is limited.
In general, all 5th level summoner spells, or 5th level cleric spells, should be roughly equal in power.
Therefore, if you think it should work on any spell in those lists, then "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" applies, making it legal regardless of whether it is on the sorcerer wizard list or not.
In the original example, while Plane Shifting is something that is more difficult to do for wizards than it is for clerics, the 'power effect level' is something that can be done by a 9th level character.
I also think though that although these examples have only one entry in the rule book, they are indeed 2 separate spells.
Wizards have a 7th level arcane spell called Plane Shift. It takes a DC 22 spellcraft check to identify this spell as it is being cast.
Clerics have a 5th level divine spell called Plane Shift. It takes a DC 20 spellcraft check to identify it being cast.
Although they have identical effects, they are in fact different spells.
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Well, a 9th level character of a specific class that is bundled with different class features and different spell lists. Maybe the decision to have plane shift be a 5th level cleric spell and a 7th level wizard spell was arbitrary, but simulacrum is at least a reasonable example about why there's a balance problem in making it accessible via limited wish.
Also, the problem arose in a PFS scenario, which generally does not support the subjective "produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" in the interest of promoting consistency. Precisely because stuff like this happens.
This whole issue is not a problem in a homebrew environment because the GM can simply make a call based on the power level they would like to establish in their game.
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I'm not totally familiar with the summoner list, but I would expect it to have 5th level spells that are not on the sorc/wiz list. Are you saying that limited wish shouldn't be able to duplicate those spells?A limited wish cannot do an equivalent level 13 top tier spell if it is 7th level.
Being able to do any of the summoner top tier level 13 spells like the 5th level summoner spell summon monster VII, which is equivalent to an otherwise barred wizard/sorcerer/cleric level 7 spell, and since you can do it without choosing to prepare the summon spell beforehand it is pretty powerful.
Here is the base summoner spell list for 5th level spells which they get at 13th, the level that wizards get limited wish as 7th level.
5th-Level Summoner Spells—banishment, creeping doom, dispel magic (greater) ethereal jaunt, heroism (greater), hungry pit*, invisibility (mass), planar adaptation*, planar binding, plane shift, repulsion, rejuvenate eidolon (greater)*, sequester, simulacrum, spell turning, summon monster VII, teleport (greater), true seeing, wall of iron.
*Banishment - cleric 6, wiz 7.
*Creeping Doom - Druid 7.Dispel Magic Greater - Bard 5, Cleric 6, Druid 6, wizard 6
*Ethereal Jaunt - Cleric 7, Wiz 7
Heroism Greater - Bard 5, Wiz 6
Hungry Pit - Wiz 5
*Invisibility Mass - Wiz 7
Planar Adaptation - Cleric 4, Wiz 5
Planar Binding - Wiz 6
Plane Shift - Cleric 5, Wiz 7
Repulsion - Cleric 7, Wiz 6
*Sequester - Wiz 7
*Simulacrum - Wiz 7
*Spell Turning - Wiz 7
*Summon Monster VII - Cleric 7, Wiz 7
*Teleport Greater - Wiz 7
True Seeing - Cleric 5, Druid 7, Wiz 6
Wall of Iron - Wiz 6,
The ones with an asterisk could not be cast as nonwizard spells of 5th level or lower in corebook only but now qualify as 5th level summoner spells.
So summoners level 5 base list changes limited wish to be able to do 8 core 7th level wizard spells that it could not do absent the class.
I don't think anyone would argue that limited wish couldn't cast righteous might, even though an inquisitor can't cast it until 13th level.
That is looking at it from the other way around on spell level power and is an aspect I had not been considering. Banishment on the inquisitor list as a 5th level spell instead of a 6th level cleric or 7th level wizard spell is the type of thing I am talking about though.
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Suppose there is a Wizard with access to Limited Wish.
Suppose there are two interpretations of Limited Wish.
A) You can cast spells of 5th or lower even if it's a higher level Wizard spell, as long as the spell is on a different class list.
B) You can't cast spells of 5th or lower if it's a higher level Wizard spell. Even if it's 5th or lower for a different class like Cleric.Now let's look at Greater Polymorph. It's a 7th level Wizard/Sorcerer spell, so Wizard's cannot cast this with Limited Wish.
Suppose Paizo makes a new class with spellcasting capability and gives it it's own spell list. This theoretical class, called "Transformer" has Greater Polymorph as a 5th level Transformer spell.
Interpretation A) says, "My wizard couldn't cast Limited Wish->Greater Polymorph yesterday, but today, Paizo released a new spell list, and suddenly, my wizard CAN cast Limited Wish->Greater Polymorph!"
Interpretation B) says, "My wizard couldn't cast Limited Wish->Greater Polymorph yesterday, and today, Paizo released a new class, but the new class's spell list doesn't affect my inability to cast Limited Wish->Greater Polymorph"I believe B) is correct by the absurdity of A).
This can already happen even if non-wizard means not also on the wizard list.
If Paizo makes a divine caster class like the summoner, a full caster condensed down to six levels.
Say a healer class that turns heal from a cleric 6 to a healer 5 spell. Then heal goes A) from "My wizard couldn't duplicate heal yesterday but he can today!"
Limited wish has several ways to gauge the power of the wish to ensure that it is limited.
In general, all 5th level summoner spells, or 5th level cleric spells, should be roughly equal in power.
Summoner 5th level spells range from cleric 4 to cleric 7. Mostly they are equivalent to a higher level cleric or wizard spell though.
Summon Monster VII is a summoner V spell and a cleric 7 spell while summon monster V is a cleric 5 spell and a summoner 4 spell.
Summoners are designed more as full casters squashed down to six levels of spells than bards or inquisitors or warpriests or magi who are more partial casters.
Therefore, if you think it should work on any spell in those lists, then "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" applies, making it legal regardless of whether it is on the sorcerer wizard list or not.
In the original example, while Plane Shifting is something that is more difficult to do for wizards than it is for clerics, the 'power effect level' is something that can be done by a 9th level character.
In general, I think that the idea of having the same spell be different spell levels anytime was a bad idea. A 5th level spell should be 5th level (and more or less in line with other 5th level spells) regardless of the class that is casting it. That would make things smoother in many ways, and this one in particular.
The idea is that limited wish is best at things a wizard can do anyway, a little less powerful for things a wizard couldn't normally do, and least powerful for the wizards opposition school. Note that this last one doesn't really make a lot of sense with the way Pathfinder changed prohibited schools to opposition schools, really it should be easier for a limited wish to duplicate an effect the wizard could manage with two slots, than an effect he couldn't manage at all.
Now, when spells have different levels in different classes, this comparison breaks. We can't tell which is the 'broken' version. (unless it is the summoner list, then it is always the summoner list that is broken.) Either plane shift must be a whole lot weaker than other 7th level wizard spells, or it must be a whole lot stronger than other 5th level cleric spells. This makes judging it for limited wish difficult.
However, my contention is that if the spell isn't broken for a ninth level party to have it is well enough in line with the other cleric spells that limited wish should be able to cast it.
Summoner spells are frankly messed up because for some reason they decided they really really needed to disguise a nine level caster as a six level one and as a result messed up a whole lot of stuff.
I should start by saying that I interpret the RAW as plane shift isn't allowed, because it's not a non-sorcerer/wizard spell. I also think it doesn't make sense for a wizard to be unable to cast plane shift with limited wish. Here's why (in-game perspective):
Suppose a wizard looks at (for a random cleric-only spell) spell resistance and decides that it's a really neat spell. He'd like to be able to cast it. Now, as it currently stands, he can cast it with limited wish.
He realizes that it's getting really expensive to do it every day and decides to research a wizard version. His DM decides that shutting down magic is more a divine thing (ok, maybe not realistic) and tells him it'll be a 7th level wizard spell. Great! He can now cast it for the same slot without that pesky material component.
But now, since it's a wizard spell it's no longer available for his limited wish. That's goofy.
Plane shift is a similar issue. Is it more or less wizardy than spell resistance? I would argue more since he eventually gets access to it. It's not quite as goofy as my example of spell research depriving limited wish of an option, but I dislike it for the same reasons.
Now, is the summoner spell list messed up when spell level is used in the same way as other classes? Sure. But that's less of a disconnect for me than a wizard losing a way to cast a spell because it became available to him.
Outside of home games can you list where this has happened? Where a wizard got a spell that he could cast with Limited wish and then it was added to his list as a spell 7th level or higher?
I don't see why you're drawing a distinction between home games and PFS here, but it looks like my non-example might have gone the wrong direction - it's deep enough in fiat already...
The real crux of my point is that wizards have a greater affinity for the magic of plane shift than the magic of spell resistance. It doesn't make sense to me that the utility knife wizard spell is less able to do a thing that wizards are better at.
Wizards being better a moving between planes of existence is more of an opinion then a fact. A cleric using the power of Deity to move him from one Existence to another is way different then using your own arcane power. Hence the requirement of Clerics to stay within their domains and adhere to their gods or faiths. I feel that is a digression though and a topic to talk about over a few beers.
I wasn't comparing cleric affinity to wizard affinity, I was saying wizard is better at doing <thing that is a wizard spell> than <thing that isn't a wizard spell>. As an unrelated digression, I think the lower spell level means clerics are better at shifting planes.
But you're right. I think I have stated my opinion and, as much fun as it is, discussion of magical metaphysics isn't likely to get us anywhere. And beer is good. :-)
I haven't seen this brought up yet, but...
Greater Angelic Aspect is an 8th level Wizard spell, but is only a 4th level Paladin (non-Wizard) spell.
There may be more, but arguing that you can use a 7th level spell to cast an 8th level spell seems pretty ridiculous to me.
I think "If it is on the Wizard list, it is a Wizard spell" is the easiest way to interpret this.
And there is a big difference between a 9th level Cleric and a 13th level Summoner. Saying that their spells at that level (when they can get 5th level spells on their own lists) are equal isn't a very good argument.
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Can a sorcerer use a limited wish to cast plane shift?
Limited wish states:
- Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Trick is, Plane Shift is a 7th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell (i.e. too high level) but is also a 5th level Cleric spell (i.e. just fine).
As DM, ya i would allow it. As RAW, that is what the spell says.
A 4th level Paladin spell is gained at level 13 with bonus spell, 14 without bonus spell.
A 8th level Wizard spell is gained at 15 th level.
--- But Limited wish is blowing a 1,500 gold per Casting Plus any other expensive material component the spell normal requires --- regardless of what spell your casting.
What every level slippage there might be, i would say is compensated for by the extra casting cost of the limited wish spell.
(( Full wish cost 25,000 plus normal spell component cost )).... and is therefor covered on any level slippage at high levels.
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Simulacrum is still a 7th level Wizard spell even though it is on the Summoner's spell list as a 5th level spell
Both the 7th level wizard spell and summoner 5th level are learn at level 13 for each class... So while it is a level 7th level spell for one class, and a 5th level spell for the other class... Both classes are able to cast the same spell at level 13.
With a Limited wish spell, it would also cost an extra 1,500 gold.
....................
So as DM, i would say : Yes.
Both the 7th level wizard spell and summoner 5th level are learn at level 13 for each class... So while it is a level 7th level spell for one class, and a 5th level spell for the other class... Both classes are able to cast the same spell at level 13.
With a Limited wish spell, it would also cost an extra 1,500 gold.
I think the point is if 7th level Wizard spell and 5th level Summoner spell are "equal" in power (both gained at the same level) as you state, then it definitely would be against RAI as only 6th level or below Wizard spells are allowed by Limited Wish.
So if Wiz7 = Sum5, and Wiz7 isn't legal, then Sum5 shouldn't be legal either.
I just want to point out blood money exists so this argument doesn't matter.
Blood money exists as a GM tool, as it only appears in a GM module. Most of the time, players trying to make use of it are actively attempting to break the game for the sake of personal power.
The argument is totally valid. The fact that there is a broken campaign-specific mechanic in a GM-only book that is in desperate need of fixing doesn't make his argument the least bit invalid.
How did the DM run it at the table when the issue came to the magicbane bandersnatch's feats and skills?
I suppose that he had them prepared beforehand but what about his selection of feats, can he do the selection himself?
What I'm reading above means I must by rules sic a demilich or magic bane bandersnatch on the group every single time I run waking rune because I'm aware of the tactic. That's unfortunate.
Only if you run the 10-11 subtier, in the 7-8 subtier you can do the magicbane bandersnatch, but the demilich is still legit. :)
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I think this line in simulacrum:
(and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)
would make it incredibly difficult to adjudicate in PFS and is so clearly in a gray area I would recommend GMs in PFS not use it at all unless specifically called for it in the scenario.
In home games make sure you spend the time to carefully balance the abilities of the creature with abilities of creatures of appropriate CR so you don't turn a game into a joke.