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Can a sorcerer use a limited wish to cast plane shift?
Limited wish states:
- Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Trick is, Plane Shift is a 7th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell (i.e. too high level) but is also a 5th level Cleric spell (i.e. just fine).
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I would say "yes." I don't know of any official rules on the subject.
I'd say yes because since the spell is saying "5th level or lower" it cannot be about "at which level wizard / sorcerer uses it?" since there are spells that a wizard / sorcerer can't cast at all
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A sorcerer/wizard spell is a spell that appear on the sor/wiz list. A non sor/wiz spell is a spell that don't appear in that list. If it appears, it will be a spell of the level indicated for that class. So, no, you can't feign that plane shift isn't on your list, because it is. At least for what I understand, this is what I'd rule.
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I would say yes because it seems to me that the cleric version of the spell is a different spell than the wizard version. I can't claim to be an expert though. I'm still relatively new to the game.
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RAW: Yes. Casting Plane Shift as a 5th level Cleric spell is RAW legal.
RAI: Probably not. It goes against the spirit of the restriction something fierce.
I would have to go with a "NO" here also.
This is for two reasons.
One:
As Blackstorm stated it says non sor/wiz spells, which means spells not on those class spell lists.Two:
If you did allow access to spells from other lists at level 5 or below regardless of them being on the sor/wiz list, then there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from getting spells from the summoner list, which has many 7th level sor/wiz spells at level 5, including Summon Monster 7. This is clearly more powerful than the spell is intended to be.
This.
I would have to go with a "NO" here also.
This is for two reasons.
One:
As Blackstorm stated it says non sor/wiz spells, which means spells not on those class spell lists.Two:
If you did allow access to spells from other lists at level 5 or below regardless of them being on the sor/wiz list, then there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from getting spells from the summoner list, which has many 7th level sor/wiz spells at level 5, including Summon Monster 7. This is clearly more powerful than the spell is intended to be.
I concur on both the RAW and the balance issue.
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FAQing, apparently this was done to use Limited Wish to cast Simulacrum from the Summoner's spell list.
Simulacrum is a 7th level wizard spell. The wording on Limited Wish specifically says:
- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Simulacrum is still a 7th level Wizard spell even though it is on the Summoner's spell list as a 5th level spell. Therefore neither Simulacrum nor Plane Shift meet the criteria of being non-sorcerer/wizard spells.
It would be different if the wording was "Duplicate any spell of 5th level or lower from a non-sorcerer/wizard spell list..."
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Limited Wish
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
To me the bold section is simply referring to non-sorcerer/wizard classes. Druids, clerics, summoners, etc. Substituting these classes in for non-sorcerer/wizard reads logically it just wouldn't make sense to list every single other spell casting class in the game in the text.
I concur with Finneous, Scavion, et al. in concluding that this is not allowed.
I think that it's a "yes" but "it should be a no", mainly because the summoner exists and has wrecked havoc with it's lower level spells.
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This does need a FAQ my VL is currently saying that it is with in the rules to cast simulacrum off limited wish because it is on the summoner list as a lvl 5 spell.
I think your VL should have followed PFS rules in place long similar lines like this from PFS.....
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not
be purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of a 4th-level cleric spell.
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I would simply not play with this VL or these GM's. If I had a player ask me as their GM to interpret the spell as they suggest, I would laugh at them and say, "Nice try!" As a GM using it on PC's, it is gray at best by their interpretation, and gray areas should generally be ruled in favor of the players due to this portion of the Guide:
The leadership of this organized play community assumes that you will use common sense in your interpretation of the rules. This includes being courteous and encouraging a mutual interest in playing, not engaging in endless rules discussions. While you are enjoying the game, be considerate of the others at the table and don’t let your actions keep them from having a good time too. In short, don’t be a jerk.
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I think the logical dysfunction here comes from the fact any spell appearing on some non-wizard's spell list is by definition, not a wizard spell.
When a cleric casts Plane-Shift, he's casting a divine version of plane-shift, and one given to him by his deity.
Now...getting snotty with "why can't you read?" replies overlooks the fact that what I just wrote it how the "yes" crowd is reading the rules. So there it is.
Jacob makes a fine argument, as PFS seems to be the watermark of the wider game.
I'm open to an FAQ ruling.
If you did allow access to spells from other lists at level 5 or below regardless of them being on the sor/wiz list, then there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from getting spells from the summoner list, which has many 7th level sor/wiz spells at level 5, including Summon Monster 7. This is clearly more powerful than the spell is intended to be.
I'm in the "Yes you can do this camp," but as a side note I'm not particularly seeing the issue here. Let's say you are using Limited Wish to cast SM7 as it is on the Summoner list... Limited Wish is a 7th level spell. A fairly expensive one. SM7 is also a 7th level spell. A free one. You are essentially spending 1,500 gold to cast a spell you could have just cast anyway with that same slot.
The only balance issue I could see falls back to another debate people had concerning the cast times of spell effects made with Wish/Limited Wish; paying an extra 1,500 gold to make your casting of Simulacrum a standard action is a game changer, but Simulacrum is pretty much the poster child for poorly made spells. Can you really hold that against Limited Wish?
I see it as a "no". The spell is on the "can not use" side of the wiz/sorc list IMHO.
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Given that the bodies are explicitly stated to be used in the ritual to summon him if they TPK they will need resurrection, recovery, restoration x2. Which they are unlikely to have.Also, I don't know if you're trying to get a speedy resolution on this issue but FAQing this won't accomplish that.
Your best bet is just to eat the raise dead / restoration (x2) for now.
Forgot about that. Add 5pp for body recovery but but I don't think anywhere in the main game thread for that scenario anyone said a res was needed, just recovery and raise.
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AD&D 1e:
The material component of this spell is a small, forked metal rod - the exact size and metal type dictating to which plane of existence the spell will send the affected creature(s) to.
AD&D 2e added:
Forked rods keyed to cetain planes may be difficult come by, as decided by the GM.
Wizards didnt have plane shift on their spell lists in 1e and 2e, at least not in the Players Hand Books.
AD&D 1e:
The material component of this spell is a small, forked metal rod - the exact size and metal type dictating to which plane of existence the spell will send the affected creature(s) to.AD&D 2e added:
Forked rods keyed to cetain planes may be difficult come by, as decided by the GM.Wizards didnt have plane shift on their spell lists in 1e and 2e, at least not in the Players Hand Books.
Good to see another player who doesn't regard "the fluff" as something that just goes by the wayside in favor of "the build".