Can You Use Limited Wish to Cast Plane Shift?


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46 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can a sorcerer use a limited wish to cast plane shift?

Limited wish states:

- Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Trick is, Plane Shift is a 7th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell (i.e. too high level) but is also a 5th level Cleric spell (i.e. just fine).


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I would say "yes." I don't know of any official rules on the subject.


I'd say yes because since the spell is saying "5th level or lower" it cannot be about "at which level wizard / sorcerer uses it?" since there are spells that a wizard / sorcerer can't cast at all


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A sorcerer/wizard spell is a spell that appear on the sor/wiz list. A non sor/wiz spell is a spell that don't appear in that list. If it appears, it will be a spell of the level indicated for that class. So, no, you can't feign that plane shift isn't on your list, because it is. At least for what I understand, this is what I'd rule.


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I would say yes because it seems to me that the cleric version of the spell is a different spell than the wizard version. I can't claim to be an expert though. I'm still relatively new to the game.


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I would have to go with a "NO" here also.

This is for two reasons.

One:
As Blackstorm stated it says non sor/wiz spells, which means spells not on those class spell lists.

Two:
If you did allow access to spells from other lists at level 5 or below regardless of them being on the sor/wiz list, then there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from getting spells from the summoner list, which has many 7th level sor/wiz spells at level 5, including Summon Monster 7. This is clearly more powerful than the spell is intended to be.


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RAW: Yes. Casting Plane Shift as a 5th level Cleric spell is RAW legal.

RAI: Probably not. It goes against the spirit of the restriction something fierce.


Finneous Emberstorm wrote:

I would have to go with a "NO" here also.

This is for two reasons.

One:
As Blackstorm stated it says non sor/wiz spells, which means spells not on those class spell lists.

Two:
If you did allow access to spells from other lists at level 5 or below regardless of them being on the sor/wiz list, then there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from getting spells from the summoner list, which has many 7th level sor/wiz spells at level 5, including Summon Monster 7. This is clearly more powerful than the spell is intended to be.

This.


Finneous Emberstorm wrote:

I would have to go with a "NO" here also.

This is for two reasons.

One:
As Blackstorm stated it says non sor/wiz spells, which means spells not on those class spell lists.

Two:
If you did allow access to spells from other lists at level 5 or below regardless of them being on the sor/wiz list, then there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from getting spells from the summoner list, which has many 7th level sor/wiz spells at level 5, including Summon Monster 7. This is clearly more powerful than the spell is intended to be.

I concur on both the RAW and the balance issue.

Sovereign Court

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

FAQing, apparently this was done to use Limited Wish to cast Simulacrum from the Summoner's spell list.

Simulacrum is a 7th level wizard spell. The wording on Limited Wish specifically says:

Limited Wish, CRB, PRD wrote:
- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

Simulacrum is still a 7th level Wizard spell even though it is on the Summoner's spell list as a 5th level spell. Therefore neither Simulacrum nor Plane Shift meet the criteria of being non-sorcerer/wizard spells.

It would be different if the wording was "Duplicate any spell of 5th level or lower from a non-sorcerer/wizard spell list..."

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm going to hazard a guess here that the response will be no FAQ needed.

I think the answer has been perfectly formulated by Blackstorm and Emberstorm.


No you can't. No FAQ is needed because the raw is clear.

Quote:

Limited Wish

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Quote:

Simulacrum

School illusion (shadow); Level sorcerer/wizard 7, summoner 5

The Exchange

Quote:

Limited Wish

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

To me the bold section is simply referring to non-sorcerer/wizard classes. Druids, clerics, summoners, etc. Substituting these classes in for non-sorcerer/wizard reads logically it just wouldn't make sense to list every single other spell casting class in the game in the text.


Ragoz wrote:
Quote:

Limited Wish

Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
To me the bold section is simply referring to non-sorcerer/wizard classes. Druids, clerics, summoners, etc. Substituting these classes in for non-sorcerer/wizard reads logically it just wouldn't make sense to list every single other spell casting class in the game in the text.

No it isn't. It's a reference to the spell lists. These spells are not non-wizard spells. It was written before other classes and the language prevents it the same way spiritual weapon and the oracle would have been rewritten for other classes.

It is not possible to abuse lower spell levels on other lists if it is on the wizard list.

This doesn't work.

The Exchange

What was written before other classes? Wish before druid, cleric, bard, ranger? No. Even if it does refer to the spell list it says any spell on the other spell lists. These lists might include something such as a lower level plane shift which would fall under 'any spell of 5th level and lower'.


Ragoz wrote:
What was written before other classes? Wish before druid, cleric, bard, ranger? No. Even if it does refer to the spell list it says any spell on the other spell lists. These lists might include something such as a lower level plane shift which would fall under 'any spell of 5th level and lower'.

Any NON-Wizard spell. So it's not legal to cast planeshift anyway.

It was written before the summoner existed. Spells which are on both lists must use the wizard spell list because it says so in the spell.

The Exchange

There wouldn't be the need for a faq if it actually said you had to use the wizard spell list. That's just not true.

Edit - In fact I might go so far as to say you have to use a non-sorcerer/wizard spell list when using options which call for it.


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Ragoz wrote:
There wouldn't be the need for a faq if it actually said you had to use the wizard spell list. That's just not true.

The effects of limited wish are as follows.

Quote:
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

This cannot duplicate simulacrum or plane shift because it is a wizard spell of 7th level.

Quote:
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

This cannot duplicate simulacrum or plane shift because it is a wizard spell of 7th level. As bolded neither of the two spells suggested qualify as such we continue to look to see if they qualify.

Quote:
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

This cannot duplicate simulacrum or plane shift because it is a wizard spell of 7th level.

Quote:
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 4th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

This cannot duplicate simulacrum or plane shift because it is a wizard spell of 7th level.

Quote:
Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.

This doesn't matter to us.

Quote:
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack
Quote:
taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.

This doesn't matter to us.

Thus we can conclude if simulacrum or plane shift are non wizard spells of 5th level they can be duplicated. They appear on the wizard spell list and as such are wizard spells and not non-wizard spells. The literal definition of a wizard spell is that the spell appears on the wizard spell list. As such there is absolutely no grey area here just people looking to abuse a spell.

Quote:
Edit - In fact I might go so far as to say you have to use a non-sorcerer/wizard spell list when using options which call for it.

This is also true however each non-wizard option is more restrictive than the wizard option as such this doesn't matter much.

Liberty's Edge

I'm going to stay conservative and vote with the "no" camp.

The Exchange

I disagree that appearing on the wizard spell list disqualifies its use. Appearing on a non-sorcerer/wizard spell list is all that matters thus the need for the faq.


Ragoz wrote:
I disagree that appearing on the wizard spell list disqualifies its use. Appearing on a non-sorcerer/wizard spell list is all that matters thus the need for the faq.

Are you unable to read the sentence?

Quote:
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.

It does not say you can copy a spell from a different spell list of 5th level or lower. It says you can copy a NON-WIZARD spell from another spell list.

No FAQ is needed. It does not mention spell lists. It specifically calls out wizard spells and non wizard spells. So I ask you this could a wizard of appropriate level cast simulacrum or plane shift? If yes then it is not a non-wizard spell.

Liberty's Edge

This does need a FAQ my VL is currently saying that it is with in the rules to cast simulacrum off limited wish because it is on the summoner list as a lvl 5 spell.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Well, as undone above already wrote, you can copy a non-wizard spell, simulacrum is a wizard spell so you cannot use limited wish even if other spellcasters can cast it as well.


I concur with Finneous, Scavion, et al. in concluding that this is not allowed.


I think that it's a "yes" but "it should be a no", mainly because the summoner exists and has wrecked havoc with it's lower level spells.

Liberty's Edge

Hence the FAQ... When you can summon a CR 20 Creature with a Magic Bane template in a tier 7,8 game it should FAQ'd so it doesn't happen to other people the same way

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Sorcerer/Wizard can cast the spell, so it's a sorcerer/wizard spell and thus not available for casting as a non-sorcerer/wizard spell even if a non-sorcerer/wizard could cast it.

Shadow Lodge

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Velsa-IronRage wrote:
This does need a FAQ my VL is currently saying that it is with in the rules to cast simulacrum off limited wish because it is on the summoner list as a lvl 5 spell.

I think your VL should have followed PFS rules in place long similar lines like this from PFS.....

All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not
be purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of a 4th-level cleric spell.

Liberty's Edge

Damanta wrote:
Sorcerer/Wizard can cast the spell, so it's a sorcerer/wizard spell and thus not available for casting as a non-sorcerer/wizard spell even if a non-sorcerer/wizard could cast it.

I completely agree however I have a feeling without a the powers that be helping she will stick to her guns with her original ruling.

There was a thread a week ago about it where Other GMs enlisted themselves to defend her case.

I need a FAQ or it will common place if a limited wish is in a PFS game without direct instructions BOOM magic-bane bandersnatch


There are multiple things that could be wrong with this but there is no question simulacrum is a wizard spell. As such obstinate individuals refuse to read.

I'm not sure how this can be confused.

Can you answer this question?
Is Simulacrum a wizard spell?

Yes - You cannot copy it unless it is 6th level or less in a legal school. (or lower for illegal)
No - You cannot copy it unless it is 5th level or less in a legal school. (or lower for illegal)

It appears on the wizard spell list as such it's by definition a wizard spell.

Liberty's Edge

It is hard to understand it but I know 4 GMs backing her with 3-5 stars.... I just want the ruling so it can be settled.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I would simply not play with this VL or these GM's. If I had a player ask me as their GM to interpret the spell as they suggest, I would laugh at them and say, "Nice try!" As a GM using it on PC's, it is gray at best by their interpretation, and gray areas should generally be ruled in favor of the players due to this portion of the Guide:

The Guide wrote:
The leadership of this organized play community assumes that you will use common sense in your interpretation of the rules. This includes being courteous and encouraging a mutual interest in playing, not engaging in endless rules discussions. While you are enjoying the game, be considerate of the others at the table and don’t let your actions keep them from having a good time too. In short, don’t be a jerk.


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I think the logical dysfunction here comes from the fact any spell appearing on some non-wizard's spell list is by definition, not a wizard spell.

When a cleric casts Plane-Shift, he's casting a divine version of plane-shift, and one given to him by his deity.

Now...getting snotty with "why can't you read?" replies overlooks the fact that what I just wrote it how the "yes" crowd is reading the rules. So there it is.

Jacob makes a fine argument, as PFS seems to be the watermark of the wider game.

I'm open to an FAQ ruling.

Liberty's Edge

Owly wrote:

I think the logical dysfunction here comes from the fact any spell appearing on some non-wizard's spell list is by definition, not a wizard spell.

When a cleric casts Plane-Shift, he's casting a divine version of plane-shift, and one given to him by his deity.

Now...getting snotty with "why can't you read?" replies overlooks the fact that what I just wrote it how the "yes" crowd is reading the rules. So there it is.

Jacob makes a fine argument, as PFS seems to be the watermark of the wider game.

I'm open to an FAQ ruling.

I am open to it and I can only see it from my point of view so to me it is obvious when I break it down logically but not everyone interpret things I do... This is why I want a FAQ ruling.

Liberty's Edge

Mike Bohlmann wrote:

I would simply not play with this VL or these GM's. If I had a player ask me as their GM to interpret the spell as they suggest, I would laugh at them and say, "Nice try!" As a GM using it on PC's, it is gray at best by their interpretation, and gray areas should generally be ruled in favor of the players due to this portion of the Guide:

The Guide wrote:
The leadership of this organized play community assumes that you will use common sense in your interpretation of the rules. This includes being courteous and encouraging a mutual interest in playing, not engaging in endless rules discussions. While you are enjoying the game, be considerate of the others at the table and don’t let your actions keep them from having a good time too. In short, don’t be a jerk.

I would agree with not playing with them except it becomes a hard ship to play then. They run alot of the PFS locations in the area and the distance I will have to travel to another location would be great or starts to early to make it from work. I just want it resolved so I can go back to enjoying pathfinder. (Which the longer it takes the less likely that will ever occur)

Shadow Lodge

+1 to Mike Bohlman

Shadow Lodge

Also, I don't know if you're trying to get a speedy resolution on this issue but FAQing this won't accomplish that.

Your best bet is just to eat the raise dead / restoration (x2) for now.


Sammy T wrote:

Also, I don't know if you're trying to get a speedy resolution on this issue but FAQing this won't accomplish that.

Your best bet is just to eat the raise dead / restoration (x2) for now.

Given that the bodies are explicitly stated to be used in the ritual to summon him if they TPK they will need resurrection, recovery, restoration x2. Which they are unlikely to have.


Finneous Emberstorm wrote:


If you did allow access to spells from other lists at level 5 or below regardless of them being on the sor/wiz list, then there's nothing to stop the sorcerer from getting spells from the summoner list, which has many 7th level sor/wiz spells at level 5, including Summon Monster 7. This is clearly more powerful than the spell is intended to be.

I'm in the "Yes you can do this camp," but as a side note I'm not particularly seeing the issue here. Let's say you are using Limited Wish to cast SM7 as it is on the Summoner list... Limited Wish is a 7th level spell. A fairly expensive one. SM7 is also a 7th level spell. A free one. You are essentially spending 1,500 gold to cast a spell you could have just cast anyway with that same slot.

The only balance issue I could see falls back to another debate people had concerning the cast times of spell effects made with Wish/Limited Wish; paying an extra 1,500 gold to make your casting of Simulacrum a standard action is a game changer, but Simulacrum is pretty much the poster child for poorly made spells. Can you really hold that against Limited Wish?


I see it as a "no". The spell is on the "can not use" side of the wiz/sorc list IMHO.

Shadow Lodge

Undone wrote:
Sammy T wrote:

Also, I don't know if you're trying to get a speedy resolution on this issue but FAQing this won't accomplish that.

Your best bet is just to eat the raise dead / restoration (x2) for now.

Given that the bodies are explicitly stated to be used in the ritual to summon him if they TPK they will need resurrection, recovery, restoration x2. Which they are unlikely to have.

Forgot about that. Add 5pp for body recovery but but I don't think anywhere in the main game thread for that scenario anyone said a res was needed, just recovery and raise.


It does not even slightly shock me that someone who would limited wish->Simulacrum a magic bane bandersnatch which can't even fit in the room without squeezing didn't know they needed a res not a raise.


You still have to have the focus item for a particular plane right? Not exactly a thing you pull out of your keester on a whim.


sunbeam wrote:
You still have to have the focus item for a particular plane right? Not exactly a thing you pull out of your keester on a whim.

No. You don't.


sunbeam wrote:
You still have to have the focus item for a particular plane right? Not exactly a thing you pull out of your keester on a whim.

Nope, and even if you did as they have no gold cost there's 1 for every plane sitting in your component pouch.

Also I suspect the creature being referenced here is using Limited Wish as an SLA anyway.


andreww wrote:
sunbeam wrote:
You still have to have the focus item for a particular plane right? Not exactly a thing you pull out of your keester on a whim.

Nope, and even if you did as they have no gold cost there's 1 for every plane sitting in your component pouch.

Also I suspect the creature being referenced here is using Limited Wish as an SLA anyway.

I looked up Plane Shift and Limited Wish again after Undone's response.

I was kind of surprised that Plane Shift didn't take an expensive focus. I could have sworn it was a tuning fork or something that cost 500 gold.

Thing is this is the kind of thing that got too easy with 3.x and Pathfinder magic.

Get real, you ought to have to go to some trouble to use this spell for all these different planes. instead of the same pouch you brought at first level having one for planes you never heard of then.

Now it is just too easy. Guess I could look up the pre-3.x versions of the spell, but I could have sworn it wasn't so easy way back when.

Shadow Lodge

AD&D 1e:
The material component of this spell is a small, forked metal rod - the exact size and metal type dictating to which plane of existence the spell will send the affected creature(s) to.

AD&D 2e added:
Forked rods keyed to cetain planes may be difficult come by, as decided by the GM.

Wizards didnt have plane shift on their spell lists in 1e and 2e, at least not in the Players Hand Books.


Jacob Saltband wrote:

AD&D 1e:

The material component of this spell is a small, forked metal rod - the exact size and metal type dictating to which plane of existence the spell will send the affected creature(s) to.

AD&D 2e added:
Forked rods keyed to cetain planes may be difficult come by, as decided by the GM.

Wizards didnt have plane shift on their spell lists in 1e and 2e, at least not in the Players Hand Books.

Good to see another player who doesn't regard "the fluff" as something that just goes by the wayside in favor of "the build".

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Velsa-IronRage wrote:
It is hard to understand it but I know 4 GMs backing her with 3-5 stars.... I just want the ruling so it can be settled.

In a home campaign, once a GM makes a ruling, It should be settled. This venue should not be thought of as an appeals forum for a GM ruling a player doesn't like. If your problem is with a PFS Judge's ruling, than your local venture officer should be the person you contact first, if speaking to the Judge in question doesn't settle things.

Liberty's Edge

This is a venue to get the rules fleshed out. If it isnt faq'd and answered then these othee gms will do this to their players... so then you have 4-5 tables with this issue. I took it to the VL who happens to be the person who ran the game and got pushed off 3 weeks and she interprets it as she can. Believe me i have sent it up the chain but unless i get some sort of ruling then the other gms are going to kill players unjustly wasting 32 sessions x 4 hours get a character to retirement to get wrecked because of this tactic

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