James, look at Table 1-1 under monster creation in the Bestiary (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html). That should give you the general values you're looking to hit.
BTW I meant no disrespect to Jacob, who has proven his talent and capability as a previous finalist. I always take note of his posts and commentary in particular and think he is a great asset to the forum.
And many thanks to Adam for his willingness to be a resource and a mentor.
No worries, Zi'on (and thanks for the kind words). It's a perfectly fair point you make. As others have noted, Paizo and the judges have it very clear over the years that they want RPG Superstar to be a contest where everyone has the opportunity to learn and grow as a designer, regardless of whether they advance or not. The advice posted by Sean, the various critique threads by Clark and Neil and this thread are testament to that.
For me, the main thing is that I asked my question in the open, where everyone else who are facing similar problems can see it. That way, it's a level playing field. And then I trust Adam and the other judges to answer in as much detail as they find appropriate.
Like it's been stated previously, if the judges can help contestants submit better entries, everybody wins.
P.s. Thanks for the replies Adam and everyone else.
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The Pipe Fox from beastiary 4 is about as cute as they come. He's tough to top.
...wait for it...
...you know it's coming...
What does the Pipe Fox Say?
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The hardest part of monster design is all those extra words that come after the stat block. Finished the stat block in 4 hours, but I am stymied for filler.
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The Pipe Fox from beastiary 4 is about as cute as they come. He's tough to top....wait for it...
...you know it's coming...
What does the Pipe Fox Say?
"Bad Clark, bad!"
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That should give you the general values you're looking to hit.
Thanks, I'm good on that front. I'm worried about abilities. For example, if I looked at all CR 1 monsters and gave the new monster every cool defensive ability of all interesting CR 1 monsters, it wouldn't really be a CR 1 any more despite matching that table's values.
So how do I know the granted abilities are too good? Too little? When no other monsters has this mix of abilities? Judgement call?
The hardest part of monster design is all those extra words that come after the stat block. Finished the stat block in 4 hours, but I am stymied for filler.
"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no play..."
Or, you could always go with the old standby:
"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr..."
That should give you the general values you're looking to hit.Thanks, I'm good on that front. I'm worried about abilities. For example, if I looked at all CR 1 monsters and gave the new monster every cool defensive ability of all interesting CR 1 monsters, it wouldn't really be a CR 1 any more despite matching that table's values.
So how do I know the granted abilities are too good? Too little? When no other monsters has this mix of abilities? Judgement call?
Play test vs a party of level 1's and 2's is one way.
The other way is more the art of monster design - what does your gut say?, how do you feel about the combination of abilities you have chose? - learn to trust your instincts. If you think it has gone to far, take a second look. Review monsters who are 1 or 2 CR higher than your monster, how do they compare ability wise?
My query to Adam is more of a general writing query. That dang lead in flavor text description. I have two versions, one rather short and like those found in the Bestiary books - my problem is, it's rather bland.
So I wrote a second one, thinking about texture of the creatures skin/scales/etc, sound of speech, fluidity of movement, stench and smell - the cinematics of the creatures' appearance if you will. That one came out at what can only be described as a paragraph.
So, Adam, you mentioned you would like the senses to be considered, noting smell particularly, so what do you think about that lead in flavor text part of the template length wise? Any general advice for us all on this would be gratefully received.
That should give you the general values you're looking to hit.Thanks, I'm good on that front. I'm worried about abilities. For example, if I looked at all CR 1 monsters and gave the new monster every cool defensive ability of all interesting CR 1 monsters, it wouldn't really be a CR 1 any more despite matching that table's values.
So how do I know the granted abilities are too good? Too little? When no other monsters has this mix of abilities? Judgement call?
Play test vs a party of level 1's and 2's is one way.
The other way is more the art of monster design - what does your gut say?, how do you feel about the combination of abilities you have chose? - learn to trust your instincts. If you think it has gone to far, take a second look. Review monsters who are 1 or 2 CR higher than your monster, how do they compare ability wise?
My query to Adam is more of a general writing query. That dang lead in flavor text description. I have two versions, one rather short and like those found in the Bestiary books - my problem is, it's rather bland.
So I wrote a second one, thinking about texture of the creatures skin/scales/etc, sound of speech, fluidity of movement, stench and smell - the cinematics of the creatures' appearance if you will. That one came out at what can only be described as a paragraph.
So, Adam, you mentioned you would like the senses to be considered, noting smell particularly, so what do you think about that lead in flavor text part of the template length wise? Any general advice for us all on this would be gratefully received.
Looking at monsters, some are a few sentences.
LikeEye of the Deep
This creature is a 5-foot wide orb dominated by a central eye and large serrated mouth. Hundreds of small seaweed-like bristles hang from the bottom of its body. Two large crab-like pincers protrude from its body, and two long, thin eyestalks sprout from the top of its orb.
or
Phrenic Scourge
A dark and tattered robe partly covers a humanoid body that appears to be formed entirely of squirming, writhing tendrils in hues of off-white, corpse-gray, and sickly purples and blues. Lengths of these tendrils hang from its sleeves as hands, while others make up a visage that cannot, in any sense of the word, be called a face. It steps forward with a shambling, yet somehow graceful, gait.
So you should be ok with long.
Phew, my first ever monster design is now with my reviewers. Draft 1 came in at 578 words, so after any fat trimming, I should be all good and the feedback should set me right for monster design number 2.
Wow, it feels so good to have something "in the bank" to alleviate any time pressures should I be fortunate enough to qualify.
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...A person who creates, reviews, and edits these things professionally has a lot of knowledge to impart and I appreciate his active part in this. Other judges have been forthcoming with advice in the past (looking at you Neil). These guys want to see everyone succeed and make the contest better in the long run.
I'm in agreement with what Nickolas has said here and what Adam asserted earlier. Design advice has been given from the judges in the past. From Sean's list of design traps on what not to do during wondrous item design to my own ramblings on adventure design. I think we've done that to educate potential designers/competitors for the contest and to increase the overall quality of the submissions. Paizo actually wants that.
However, I will say that in the interests of "fairness to all" the judges generally stop giving such advice once a certain round is underway. That's because some folks may have already submitted their next design and miss the additional advice. Whereas, someone who waits to soak in all possible advice and then uses that to enhance their entry gets a leg up on the competition who fired off something too early.
At this point of the game, Adam's advice has been posted on the Paizo blog for all to see. It brings them to this thread to see any of his additional commentary. And it's here for all to use. More importantly, it's here for everyone to use before the submission window is opened for Top 32. Once the "submit" button becomes available for the monster round, however, I'd expect the flow of advice (from the judges, at least) to pause. That way, everyone's still on the same playing field.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
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Nothing to add but a (hopefully) useful analogy: It's not so different from asking your teacher/professor questions in class and then applying that information in the exam which the same person evaluates. :)
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Thanks for your feedback Neil and others...
I've been working on my monster for the last 24 hours, on and off, and the dawning realization is that... this is real work...
There's nothing to throwing some claws and scales and a few cool abilities together, but a balanced, appropriate and emotive creature is a different matter all together.
Thanks to Jacob for pleading that everyone start work on their monster well before The Reveal. There is just no way to put something together without a significant amount of time and effort, given the necessary care required for a submission that may actually go somewhere. I admit that I took the item creation round less seriously than I should have. I have learned my lesson...
Get busy folks...
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I've been working on my monster for the last 24 hours, on and off, and the dawning realization is that... this is real work...
Hah! Welcome to the wide world of freelance design. You've crossed a significant threshold with that realization.
Also, how about a hat tip to all those prior competitors who had to turn around such monster designs in just 3 days from when the next round's rules were posted. That's not just Superstar, it's an Ironman-level of competition to pull that off successfully.
Also, how about a hat tip to all those prior competitors who had to turn around such monster designs in just 3 days from when the next round's rules were posted. That's not just Superstar, it's an Ironman-level of competition to pull that off successfully.
Just out of curiosity, what is the estimated average turn around for such assignments in the freelance market? Do you get three day assignments very often? Even tighter deadlines that that?
And of course, props to those ironmen, including the winner of 2009's competition.
Also, how about a hat tip to all those prior competitors who had to turn around such monster designs in just 3 days from when the next round's rules were posted. That's not just Superstar, it's an Ironman-level of competition to pull that off successfully.
Designing an archetype in 3 days during last year's competition was...a nice learning experience. :)
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Hah! Welcome to the wide world of freelance design. You've crossed a significant threshold with that realization.
**Blinks,** bleary-eyed and dazed, standing in the middle of what might be a vast arena drenched in the bright, overpowering glare of floodlights...
"Hello... is there... anybody... there...?"
The eery silence is as palpable as it is unnerving...
Yeah, it's kinda like that...
Just out of curiosity, what is the estimated average turn around for such assignments in the freelance market? Do you get three day assignments very often? Even tighter deadlines that that?
That's really hard to quantify, because the size of the assignments always varies. You rarely get tapped to take on a single 600-700 word monster...or, even a single 300-word wondrous item. Usually, the assignments are larger than that. You take on a single chapter or section of a book, an entire adventure, or a collection of monsters for a Bestiary or something. So, I can't really compare apples to apples.
Generally, however, I'd say 3 days for generating a stat-block and monster write-up in the 600-700 word Bestiary format is a reasonable expectation. It's a lot harder to pull off if those 3 days span the work week as opposed to a weekend, though...which is what we faced during the 2008 and 2009 competitions. The important thing for all of you is they've given you plenty of time to prepare your submission. Anyone who falls on their face with a lackluster entry once the Top 32 are given the green-light for Round Two should have no one to blame but themselves.
So, get crackin' people!
Designing an archetype in 3 days during last year's competition was...a nice learning experience. :)
I literally can't remember how I managed to turn around an organization or a monster my year. It's just a haze of mad gaming design.
I do remember I managed to complete two organizations and then started a third that I just couldn't manage to pull together before my brain threw a fit at me. (I do remember that the second I submitted my organization I began doing research for the monster round, for all the good it did me.) It's so nice now that everyone knows the "twists" earlier.
I can't imagine how Neil and Co. did it when they didn't even know what the challenge was going to be.
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Designing an archetype in 3 days during last year's competition was...a nice learning experience. :)I literally can't remember how I managed to turn around an organization or a monster my year. It's just a haze of mad gaming design.
I do remember I managed to complete two organizations and then started a third that I just couldn't manage to pull together before my brain threw a fit at me. (I do remember that the second I submitted my organization I began doing research for the monster round, for all the good it did me.) It's so nice now that everyone knows the "twists" earlier.
I can't imagine how Neil and Co. did it when they didn't even know what the challenge was going to be.
Yeah the early part of 2012 is still a bit of a blur to me. I only worked on one organization, one monster and and prepped for a single encounter. Those deadlines are tight and the competition fierce. I cannot even imagine what it was like to keep advancing through each round not even knowing what you were going to be asked to design.
Designing an archetype in 3 days during last year's competition was...a nice learning experience. :)I literally can't remember how I managed to turn around an organization or a monster my year. It's just a haze of mad gaming design.
I do remember I managed to complete two organizations and then started a third that I just couldn't manage to pull together before my brain threw a fit at me. (I do remember that the second I submitted my organization I began doing research for the monster round, for all the good it did me.) It's so nice now that everyone knows the "twists" earlier.
I can't imagine how Neil and Co. did it when they didn't even know what the challenge was going to be.
I would imagine long nights and the early morning chorus may have made an appearance or two :)
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Eye of the Deep and Phrenic Scourge
Be very careful with these examples- both are pulled from 3PP products. If Paizo says you want one or two lines, you're best to follow their advice as closely as possible.
Thought up a new monster idea yesterday, now I need to design that as well. My first idea is pretty close to being finished.
There goes this weekend.
I don't want to think about having to choose between them. :)
I've got three ideas that I am not entirely impressed with, alas.
I will work them up for the practice of it, but hopefully I will be TRULY inspired should I (Heaven forbid!) advance to this particular round!
Got back the initial round of feedback, reworked over the weekend.
The thing I learnt here is to be really flexible in monster design, sometimes you drive the design, and sometimes (in this case), the design drives you, taking you to unexpected yet wondrous places.
This second draft is quite different from my original conception, but even I have to look at it and admit to myself that the core theme is tighter and the whole stands on its own much better.
Why say this before I know if I need my potential round 2 entry? To share the design experience and maybe provide a nugget of useful tips and experience, or potentially help my fellow contestants from falling into pit holes that I have just climbed out of.
1 - Use your feedback positively no matter how negative the feedback seems to be. Some of my feedback was blunt - but I loved it - it told me exactly where my weaknesses were in my design. I won't say it didn't sting, it did, but once you get passed that, really look and you will often find the feedback is dead on the money, highlighting issues with your design.
2 - Take a break and then come back to the design. Don't be afraid to rewrite from the ground up when you think your monster design is loose, give rein to the design, let it lead you for a while and explore those alleyways you didn't perceive initially. You might just be pleasantly surprised at what is lurking in those shadows ;)
3 - Start with the theme and description - the stat block is purely technical, so get that core theme, the descriptions and abilities right first. You do that and the special things about your monster become well defined. The stat block then becomes an exercise in number crunching and formatting around a good knowledge of the effects you want - the hard part, the actual design of the creature is done.
Got back the initial round of feedback, reworked over the weekend.
The thing I learnt here is to be really flexible in monster design, sometimes you drive the design, and sometimes (in this case), the design drives you, taking you to unexpected yet wondrous places.
This second draft is quite different from my original conception, but even I have to look at it and admit to myself that the core theme is tighter and the whole stands on its own much better.
Why say this before I know if I need my potential round 2 entry? To share the design experience and maybe provide a nugget of useful tips and experience, or potentially help my fellow contestants from falling into pit holes that I have just climbed out of.
1 - Use your feedback positively...
2 - Take a break and then come back to the design...
3 - Start with the theme and description - the stat block is purely technical, so get that core theme, the descriptions and abilities right first...
Good tips. I had my creature's 2nd draft done yesterday, so today is my take a break period. This evening, I'll get back to it, hopefully with fresh eyes and an open mind.
When reviewing and editing your own work, I suggest you make an effort to be as objective as you can. Of course, that's difficult because it's your own design, but try to critique it like you would someone else's entry. Also, be flexible and don't cling to your earlier drafts.
Finally, remember to be serious and put forth your best effort, but also relax and have fun. Hard work combined with joyful creation will show up to good effect in your final product.
My efforts tonight will focus on polishing the details of presentation, template and format.
Good luck to everyone!
Yup - another one - I love my reviewers, sometimes they just hit the nail square on...
Tip Number 4
Look at your abilities - can they be brought to bear on the PC's or are they "plot devices" which are in effect when the PC's "meet" the creature, or more simply won't form part of the encounter in any way?
Be honest when you re-examine your abilities - I know it hurts, but it is so much better when you fix this sort of thing.
Yeah, I'm up to revision (ummm lots) now - but getting so much closer to a final draft that I wouldn't be scared to submit.
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Just out of curiosity, what is the estimated average turn around for such assignments in the freelance market? Do you get three day assignments very often? Even tighter deadlines that that?
For a single monster, I think Neil is right that 2-3 days is about right. I know for myself in monster design, the few times I have done single monsters, once I have the monster in mind, it takes me about two to four hours to do the write-up and then I generally let it sit a day and visit it again the next day for polishing.
All right - monster draft done. Still needs work, but nothing that can't be fixed during three days worth of adrenalin-fuled frenzy.
I would be very surprised to make the top 32, so I haven't made a full-on monster design.
But the constraints this year are really interesting. Low CR is challenging in itself, but the Urban constraint is the real bear. Making something that genuinely needs to be in a town or city while at the same time figuring out why it's not eradicated by said city is tough. All while being cool enough for voters.
It's a real challenge, and I'll certainly be basing my votes in large part on how well the contestants meet it.
In the meantime it's been fun making concepts for fun.
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When designing a Golarion Monster you'll race right through those first 500 words. Then you only have another 100 words to slam on the breaks.
Good Luck to everyone making a monster.
Whether we're in the top 32 or not these urban monsters could be a great addition to the upcoming Cheliax themed issue of Wayfinder or even just your next campaign. Here's to some great new beasts!
Gah! I would love to have draft #1 done but SOMEONE (El Hubino) got a bee in his bonnet and is on a major cleaning streak! I have to sneak a peak at the boards from my phone or risk upsetting "the monster"!
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Gah! I would love to have draft #1 done but SOMEONE (El Hubino) got a bee in his bonnet and is on a major cleaning streak! I have to sneak a peak at the boards from my phone or risk upsetting "the monster"!
So is this a spoiler about your potential monster concept?
...
>.>
<.<
...
Maybe?
Well, my monster has now gone through two revisions. I'm sure when I look at it again tomorrow I'll want to change something else should I still be in the competition. But for now, happy! :)
Well, my monster has now gone through two revisions. I'm sure when I look at it again tomorrow I'll want to change something else should I still be in the competition. But for now, happy! :)
That's two of us in that position ;D
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It's never to early to start thinking about future rounds. I wasn't going to dust this off just yet, but a few others on the boards have been sharing their advice and I didn't want to get left out. :)
I'll be judging the monster round again this year, and I'll be treating the entries pretty much exactly as I did last year. In addition to the advice I gave in the first post in this thread, I strongly encourage people to check out the excellent advice given by Eric Hindley in this thread and all the great blogs Mikko Kallio has posted (easily found in this thread.
As the monster round nears, I'l likely be adding to these lists of advice and answering questions, but until then read up! Good luck everyone!
I like monsters that have a few different abilities, especially ones that attack different types of defenses (touch AC, Fortitude Saves, Reflex Saves, Will Saves, CMD, etc. etc.). I also like monsters that let PCs benefit from their own special defenses, like a dwarf's poison resistance or an elf's immunity to sleep.
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It's never to early to start thinking about future rounds. I wasn't going to dust this off just yet, but a few others on the boards have been sharing their advice and I didn't want to get left out. :)
I'll be judging the monster round again this year, and I'll be treating the entries pretty much exactly as I did last year. In addition to the advice I gave in the first post in this thread, I strongly encourage people to check out the excellent advice given by Eric Hindley in this thread and all the great blogs Mikko Kallio has posted (easily found in this thread.
As the monster round nears, I'l likely be adding to these lists of advice and answering questions, but until then read up! Good luck everyone!
Sorry I jumped the gun, Adam! I was going to wait too, but I'm probably not going to have time to make sure I post at the right time come January/February... With my luck I'll poke my head back in and have just missed the monster deadline.
I'll be judging the monster round again this year, and I'll be treating the entries pretty much exactly as I did last year.
So, what kinds of pizza toppings do you like? :P
So here's a question: Is there a formula to determining the construction costs for constructs? Because I haven't been able to figure that out, I have to admit.
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So here's a question: Is there a formula to determining the construction costs for constructs? Because I haven't been able to figure that out, I have to admit.
The formula is discussed in Ultimate Magic > Mastering Magic > Building and Modifying Constructs >Pricing a New Construct.
In summary, it costs CR squared x 500 gp + 5-10% in raw materials. Additional special abilities add to the CR. The first is free, the next two count as +1/2 CR per ability, and anything after that is +1 CR per ability. Really powerful abilities count as two abilities for this purpose. Most weaknesses don’t make a difference, but berserk is -1 CR (flesh golem version) or -2 CR (clay golem version).
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Sorry I jumped the gun, Adam! I was going to wait too, but I'm probably not going to have time to make sure I post at the right time come January/February... With my luck I'll poke my head back in and have just missed the monster deadline.It's never to early to start thinking about future rounds. I wasn't going to dust this off just yet, but a few others on the boards have been sharing their advice and I didn't want to get left out. :)
I'll be judging the monster round again this year, and I'll be treating the entries pretty much exactly as I did last year. In addition to the advice I gave in the first post in this thread, I strongly encourage people to check out the excellent advice given by Eric Hindley in this thread and all the great blogs Mikko Kallio has posted (easily found in this thread.
As the monster round nears, I'l likely be adding to these lists of advice and answering questions, but until then read up! Good luck everyone!
There was no gun jumped whatsoever, Eric. I nearly necroed this thread earlier in the week, but resisted (and then was tempted again). Seeing all the other great advice just convinced me that now was a fine time. :)