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Im 3.5, the half orc was the only core race that got a bonus to strength, and that made it the melee race. But in pathfinder, they lost this niche, now that humans and half elfs can put their stat bonus in STR. Its just my opinion, but I think the half orc would be the perfect race to get a bonus to two phisical stats and a penalty to a mental one, it would add more variety to core races, we have 7 races and 3 of them have flexible bonuses. What do you guys think and what do think the devs were thinking?
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Everyone should have flexibility. So I'm fine with them having it, but what I don't like is everyone else not.
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I'm actually glad that half-orcs have more of an option to be more than simply the dumb brute idiot. It's good to see half-orcs get their comeuppance :)
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Are you okay with half orcs sharing human attribute flexibility?
Yes.
My group didn't care for the floating stat on half-orcs. We use +2str, +2 wis, -2 cha. A few of the members mentioned that is what pathfinder beta used, but I'm uncertain about that part myself.
I think it was. Sometimes I miss it, like when I rolled up a battle cleric of philosophy (because of their weapon proficiencies, too!) but I like the way half orcs turned out.
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That's the reason why half-orc rules tribes of orc. They are smarter and can adapt to literally every situation. On top of it, half-orc have access to all the human and orcs feats/archetypes and magical items, which is pretty darn awesome in my book. What I mostly like about it, you can make all kind of half-orc characters from philosopher, aristocrats, paladin, Alchemist, wizards etc...
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i think that H.Orcs are the worst race in the game, and without balancing racial traits and feature like toothy, and the real ferocity (as in diehard) they are near unplayable.
they have the lowest racial PB, and only 1 good feature, wich is martial weapon proficiencies. darkvision is better gained through aasimar or dwarf, and honestly its better just to reflavor a character from a human into an H.Orc so you can actually function.
i would have loved it if they were givin a -2 to cha or int and a static +2 to strength and a variable +2 like humans get. that would make the CRB H.Orc an actual choice other then RP flavor.
I really like the new take on Humans, Half Elves and Half Orcs. Really excellent solution for these races I think. Never wanted to play a Half Orc until Pathfinder. Its great. Way to go Paizo!
They also removed a lot of the versatility the other races had though. Less racial variants. Elves in particular lost a lot of their cousins and no environment based racial attributes. Its also not overpowered to give all races more flexibility so that its not as awful of an option to play a dwarf oracle vs. a human oracle.
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I really like the new take on Humans, Half Elves and Half Orcs. Really excellent solution for these races I think. Never wanted to play a Half Orc until Pathfinder. Its great. Way to go Paizo!They also removed a lot of the versatility the other races had though. Less racial variants. Elves in particular lost a lot of their cousins and no environment based racial attributes. Its also not overpowered to give all races more flexibility so that its not as awful of an option to play a dwarf oracle vs. a human oracle.
a dwarven oracle is not that bad, +2 to all saves vrs magic and poison and a +2 to con and wis for the low low price of -1 to your save dc. i would play that character, and have in the past. then add in the sexy trait and feat now you have a +6/+5/+6 to saves v magic and poison.
I really like the new take on Humans, Half Elves and Half Orcs. Really excellent solution for these races I think. Never wanted to play a Half Orc until Pathfinder. Its great. Way to go Paizo!They also removed a lot of the versatility the other races had though. Less racial variants. Elves in particular lost a lot of their cousins and no environment based racial attributes. Its also not overpowered to give all races more flexibility so that its not as awful of an option to play a dwarf oracle vs. a human oracle.
To be fair, there was some negative feedback of constant X elves being added into the game. I at least remember the groups I saw groan at yet more special elves added into the game.
Having played a half-orc paladin in 3.5, yes, I am rather okay with half-orcs not being mechanically crippled in all but a small niche. I can play the same character in Pathfinder and not have to jump through ridiculous hoops (and benefit from the DM not noticing his rolling method was absurdly over-generous...) to be competent.
a dwarven oracle is not that bad, +2 to all saves vrs magic and poison and a +2 to con and wis for the low low price of -1 to your save dc. i would play that character, and have in the past. then add in the sexy trait and feat now you have a +6/+5/+6 to saves v magic and poison.
Don't worry mr dwarf oracle! Your only 2 behind in your casting stat compared to the other kids(okay, 4 behind some of the other kids who were just born much better than you), but don't worry, you have better saves! Just like the fighter or barbarian of the same race next to you. Have you considered being one of those instead? How about a cleric since you actually have a bonus wisdom?
Missed the point I think. I was saying flexibility can only help, not that they were awful. Hurts pretty badly if you want to be debuffer though, so its more noticeable if its -2 strength for a martial or -2 intellect for a debuffer wizard for example.
They also removed a lot of the versatility the other races had though. Less racial variants. Elves in particular lost a lot of their cousins and no environment based racial attributes. Its also not overpowered to give all races more flexibility so that its not as awful of an option to play a dwarf oracle vs. a human oracle.To be fair, there was some negative feedback of constant X elves being added into the game. I at least remember the groups I saw groan at yet more special elves added into the game.
Really? My groups were fine with it. My first one was almost all elves of varying types. The only people I knew (irl) who didn't like it, just didn't like elves in the first place.
Really? My groups were fine with it. My first one was almost all elves of varying types. The only people I knew (irl) who didn't like it, just didn't like elves in the first place.They also removed a lot of the versatility the other races had though. Less racial variants. Elves in particular lost a lot of their cousins and no environment based racial attributes. Its also not overpowered to give all races more flexibility so that its not as awful of an option to play a dwarf oracle vs. a human oracle.To be fair, there was some negative feedback of constant X elves being added into the game. I at least remember the groups I saw groan at yet more special elves added into the game.
I think it stems from the whole eleven superiority complex that elves seem to be stuck with. It was fairly common, along with the Drizzt Syndrome.
I think it stems from the whole eleven superiority complex that elves seem to be stuck with. It was fairly common, along with the Drizzt Syndrome.
Oh... I said I was okay with elf variants. Not snooty elves themselves. Large difference between whether I care there's a race of desert orcs and elves and if there's another snooty elf at the table who thinks he's better than me because elf. I used to have a GM who played every elf like a snooty elf. It was a whole kingdom and culture of snooty elves!
Pathfinder has a more toned-down version of the variant elves, with them having alternate racial traits from the base elf. I think that's a good compromise.
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The new direction of simple stats and relatively balanced Races (No LA) does mostly work with the inclusion of many racial feats through which to refine your distinct variety of Half Orc or Tiefling etc. It would be nice if they shared an equal number of useful alternate traits and feats which were not similar as a means of reinforcing each races unique strengths.
Most racial feats are awful and have nothing to do with their race. Stabbing Shot is easy to pick on.
Beast Rider lets my Half Orc Ranger bond a Pteranadon Animal companion and then ride it when Im 7th level.
On the other hand, the Halfling or Elf ranger raised in a land full of dinosaurs never gets to tame a dinosaur, and a half orc ranger raised in an urban setting with the feat can totally tame a dinosaur. Why do only orcs get to ride dinosaurs anyway?
Its not that they don't add customization, its that they aren't really inherent with the race and by making them racial feats you exclude them from other races.
Off topic at this point though I guess.
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I am ok with half orcs having a floating +2, what i am not with is that both small races have -2 STR and +2CHA.
Everyone should have flexibility. So I'm fine with them having it, but what I don't like is everyone else not.
Hear hear!
The new direction of simple stats and relatively balanced Races (No LA) does mostly work with the inclusion of many racial feats through which to refine your distinct variety of Half Orc or Tiefling etc. It would be nice if they shared an equal number of useful alternate traits and feats which were not similar as a means of reinforcing each races unique strengths.Most racial feats are awful and have nothing to do with their race. Stabbing Shot is easy to pick on.
Hear hear part II!
To be fair, there was some negative feedback of constant X elves being added into the game. I at least remember the groups I saw groan at yet more special elves added into the game.I really like the new take on Humans, Half Elves and Half Orcs. Really excellent solution for these races I think. Never wanted to play a Half Orc until Pathfinder. Its great. Way to go Paizo!They also removed a lot of the versatility the other races had though. Less racial variants. Elves in particular lost a lot of their cousins and no environment based racial attributes. Its also not overpowered to give all races more flexibility so that its not as awful of an option to play a dwarf oracle vs. a human oracle.
So instead we just get 80 thousand varieties of assimars and teiflings.
So instead we just get 80 thousand varieties of assimars and teiflings.
If I remember correctly, Bastards of Golarion should add some more variants for the half-breeds. No idea what that entails though. We also have a number of variants for skinwalkers, kobolds, and dhampir. You just have to get your own book and you just might suddenly have a good number of cousins!
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To be fair, there was some negative feedback of constant X elves being added into the game. I at least remember the groups I saw groan at yet more special elves added into the game.I really like the new take on Humans, Half Elves and Half Orcs. Really excellent solution for these races I think. Never wanted to play a Half Orc until Pathfinder. Its great. Way to go Paizo!They also removed a lot of the versatility the other races had though. Less racial variants. Elves in particular lost a lot of their cousins and no environment based racial attributes. Its also not overpowered to give all races more flexibility so that its not as awful of an option to play a dwarf oracle vs. a human oracle.So instead we just get 80 thousand varieties of assimars and teiflings.
Hardly an apt comparison. Tieflings and aasimars have a very wide amount of parentages from fiends/celestials that are fairly unique to each other. I think it makes sense that they'd have some variance being that many are birthed from creatures that are from completely different planes and made up of pure alignment. With elves, they still can get some different racial benefits from different environments without it changing too drastically. Ultimately, even with the differences in temperature and terrain, they are still on a single planet with the same laws and not as vast a difference in biology. With the exception of aquatic elves, for obvious reasons.
Honestly, I think the alternate racial traits is a good compromise for the non-outsider races.
The new direction of simple stats and relatively balanced Races (No LA) does mostly work with the inclusion of many racial feats through which to refine your distinct variety of Half Orc or Tiefling etc. It would be nice if they shared an equal number of useful alternate traits and feats which were not similar as a means of reinforcing each races unique strengths.Most racial feats are awful and have nothing to do with their race. Stabbing Shot is easy to pick on.
I actually like the majority of the racial feats, though even I gotta agree that Stabbing Shot is pretty dumb.
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With these smarts and damn fine looks, I can see why some folks are jealous of half-orcs.
Ain't gonna stop being this smart and handsome, of course. But I understand.
HA!
OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here............
I....actually prefer half-orcs to other races in most classes!!!!
(runs away)
OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here............
I....actually prefer half-orcs to other races in most classes!!!!
(runs away)
I think everyone already knows that half-orcs are objectively the best core race. This is is so objective, it's more objective than the alignment system.
I don't really see what the problem is.
Some may not like it, but it's actually not that hard to build a half-orc that goes towards racial stereotypes. And you have alternate racial options from the books that expand on the races to make certain you can build different flavors.
Are you okay with half orcs sharing human attribute flexibility?Yes.
This.
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I would prefer half-orcs having a +2 bonus that could go into Strength *or* Wisdom, and half-elves having a +2 bonus that could go into Dexterity *or* Charisma.
But I don't mind the current setup, as it makes for more mechanical versatility for both races, regardless of whether or not a half-orc with a bonus to Intelligence, or a half-elf with a bonus to Strength 'feels' as on-theme to me.
It's one of those cases where I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of thematic 'fluff' for some more optimal 'crunch.'
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The floating +2 has been one of the best things Pathfinder has done.
I'm perfectly happy with racial penalties on ability scores. I actually think it is weird if halflings DON'T have a penalty to Strength, for example.There's no nice way to say this, but that's a rather biologically ignorant viewpoint.
Strength is dictated by cross section and composition. Children are weak because they have different muscle composition than adults. This is why even skinny people become substantially stronger going through puberty. Adult halflings are not children and should have every bit as much strength as adult humans if not more. Humans are actually unusually weak for primates with a predilection for slow twitch fibers and "optimized" for distance running. Halflings cannot fill the postulated ecological niche of early humans because they're too short legged and should therefore exhibit musculature more like other primates and have a strength bonus rather than a penalty.
Halflings would be weaker than humans even without a STR penalty, due to the reduced carrying capacity rule for being small.
I would prefer half-orcs having a +2 bonus that could go into Strength *or* Wisdom, and half-elves having a +2 bonus that could go into Dexterity *or* Charisma.
But I don't mind the current setup, as it makes for more mechanical versatility for both races, regardless of whether or not a half-orc with a bonus to Intelligence, or a half-elf with a bonus to Strength 'feels' as on-theme to me.
It's one of those cases where I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of thematic 'fluff' for some more optimal 'crunch.'
That's the beauty of it. If you think that half-orcs should only get a bonus to STR or WIS, then you can choose to only put the bonus there when you play one. Someone with a different viewpoint is free to do otherwise.
Win-win.
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Halflings would be weaker than humans even without a STR penalty, due to the reduced carrying capacity rule for being small.
Maybe they're just like ants? How else are the going to carry extra portions for second and third breakfast with them.