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Yeah, he's a wizard that dominates the game via combat and doesn't makes the game less fun for other people. He is the main damage dealer and this is because he gets the money from other party members and crafts numerous wondrous items. There is a rogue and the rogue does not do anything since the wizard takes care of the situation before the rogue can even do anything. He wants to be the spotlight and he made his character to be the main driving force of the party and shadow everyone else. He only heals himself and doesn't cast spells to anyone else for the reason of "I have limited spells". Also he threatens to kill the party members if they piss him off IRL and now he has raised the price to 75% and is now screwing everyone else and now we are all at his mercy.
TL;DR You are correct, he is that kind of wizard.
I have considered that, however this is the only game that is near my location. Basically, my only choices are, leave the game and don't play anymore Pathfinder or stay and endure the negatives. Also I've been with this group for years and this is like the only major problem we have come across in the game. I, for one, see that leaving the game should be my last resort and should try to convince the PC to the best of my abilities before choosing to leave the game.
I would encourage you to talk to the GM in private about your concerns. If for some reason that can't be done talk with another player with which you have a good rapport. The behaviors you described are way out of bounds and that player should know that this kind of thing isn't acceptable.
Finally, this thread has been taken over by the people arguing about the ethics of fantasy microeconomics. The real issue is that you're dealing with a fellow player who wants to dominate the game and a GM that hasn't yet curbed that behavior. If you'd like to discuss further consider staring a thread in Gamer Talk.
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Been following this discussion with interest. In game it makes perfect sense to charge the other character for their time & trouble. However from a metagame perspective, I think its poor sportsmanship. How far does this logic extend?
"If you want me to power attack this troll, it'll be 5 gp."
"If you want me to tell you what I see with darkvision, 1 cp."
"If you want me to turn these wights, it'll be 40 gp. This ain't no charity."I think I would just charge at-cost and leave it at that.
Very well: get us your complete table of service costs. Remember to include everything from all the characters.
Pirate crews had something similar, and lo and behold, the ship carpenter had a larger share of the loot than a common sailor.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be clearer on my expectations when I suggest that the caster not charge a margin:
The party chips in for party items.
The party shares with the crafter an equal split of whatever they get during their downtime opportunities that the crafter misses out on.
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I am amused how it seems halve the posts here are kinda ignoring the OP's original gripe.
Crafters are saying they deserve recompense for the crafting feet and using their time in making an item. Which is fair, other than the OP said that time was handwaved, so they are wasting nothing.
So it seems he is literally missing out on nothing, but getting 10% more. that does seem a bit unfair to me. Other than that minor fact i tend to agree with the crafters but charging 10% more for missing out on nothing seems a jerkish move. But thats just my opinion.
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If there's no crafting time, why isn't everything in the game world sold for the cost of materials? Isn't that what the other 50% of the cost is for, labor costs? Walk up to your local arcane blacksmith and demand a +1 longsword at half cost because it doesn't take him any time to make it if you show up with the materials. "Hey I've got this 1000gp worth of magic weapon dust, shove it into my sword to make it +1 please." "I WILL IT TO BE SO!" Poof, magic item. He should probably close up shop and just wear a nametag that notes that he can do this craftmancy. Spend his days fishing or something else that will actually make him money and/or be enjoyable.
[EDIT] Lesson of the story: either use the system or don't. If you houserule a system think through to your consequences. This issue is largely due to the GM's shortsightedness.
...But crafting is not part of the adventure. It's a separate thing. Just like writing poetry is a separate thing. Just like rolling a Profession check is a separate thing. Just like partying in a tavern with the locals is a separate thing.
This is where we disagree.
In my opinion crafting magic items is as much a feature of your character that enables you to help you and your allies along on their adventure, as any thing else. You've made a character choice that enables you to pull your weight (and probably more as a wizard) in your shared troubles and have a fun time doing so, just like the other players have.
The system does not support the wizard making money crafting magic items, because that is not what this game is about. As such, introducing gp profit from inter-party crafting, isn't simply using a wizard's day job between friends, it is introducing a new kind of economic based on crafting feats.
That said, I've paid a fee to the crafters in various games, without any hard feelings. However, it generelly does add anything good. Firstly, it tend to promote the need for a coin-to-coin distribution of wealth, to ensure everyone get their fair share. And while this sometimes work just fine, it runs the risk of becoming tedious book keeping, and perhaps promote pettiness.
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I am amused how it seems halve the posts here are kinda ignoring the OP's original gripe.
Crafters are saying they deserve recompense for the crafting feet and using their time in making an item. Which is fair, other than the OP said that time was handwaved, so they are wasting nothing.
So it seems he is literally missing out on nothing, but getting 10% more. that does seem a bit unfair to me. Other than that minor fact i tend to agree with the crafters but charging 10% more for missing out on nothing seems a jerkish move. But thats just my opinion.
In the same handwaived time the OP can use other activities to earn money. Several where proposed, the only reply was "Our GM don't want to use the UCamp rules, too complicated." As the basic UCamp rules about earning capital are easy to apply the problem is the GM, not the player.
...But crafting is not part of the adventure. It's a separate thing. Just like writing poetry is a separate thing. Just like rolling a Profession check is a separate thing. Just like partying in a tavern with the locals is a separate thing.
This is where we disagree.
In my opinion crafting magic items is as much a feature of your character that enables you to help you and your allies along on their adventure, as any thing else. You've made a character choice that enables you to pull your weight (and probably more as a wizard) in your shared troubles and have a fun time doing so, just like the other players have.
The system does not support the wizard making money crafting magic items, because that is not what this game is about. As such, introducing gp profit from inter-party crafting, isn't simply using a wizard's day job between friends, it is introducing a new kind of economic based on crafting feats.
That said, I've paid a fee to the crafters in various games, without any hard feelings. However, it generelly does add anything good. Firstly, it tend to promote the need for a coin-to-coin distribution of wealth, to ensure everyone get their fair share. And while this sometimes work just fine, it runs the risk of becoming tedious book keeping, and perhaps promote pettiness.
Actually, as shown by the FAQ about WBL it is a feature meant to be used only for yourself.
Getting magic items at half price is the benefit of the feat, and it is meant to be usable only by the guy with the feat.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There'd be no problem if there were a feat for mundanes to effectively double their WBL the same way.
Let's call it Investment Banker/Noble/Virtuoso and have it require Profession/Perform checks and take the same amount of time as crafting, and we're set!
I am amused how it seems halve the posts here are kinda ignoring the OP's original gripe.
Crafters are saying they deserve recompense for the crafting feet and using their time in making an item. Which is fair, other than the OP said that time was handwaved, so they are wasting nothing.
So it seems he is literally missing out on nothing, but getting 10% more. that does seem a bit unfair to me. Other than that minor fact i tend to agree with the crafters but charging 10% more for missing out on nothing seems a jerkish move. But thats just my opinion.
I'd have to agree, most people seem to be addressing the general issue of crafters charging a premium rather than the specific case of the OP. That's pretty much par for the course on the forums, though.
For my part, I would say that the crafter charging a little extra beyond costs isn't unreasonable in a properly balanced game, but from what the OP's told us, in his specific case it seems like the guy is just a jerk in general, and the item charging is one of many issues. The GM handwaving away crafting time and not giving anyone else downtime activities doesn't help either.
There'd be no problem if there were a feat for mundanes to effectively double their WBL the same way.
Let's call it Investment Banker/Noble/Virtuoso and have it require Profession/Perform checks and take the same amount of time as crafting, and we're set!
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The debate has gone on so long because it's exposed people's differing underlying assumptions about the game.
My assumptions:
You don't get to tell other characters what their job is. You can't tell the cleric "It's your job to heal me in battle" if the cleric would rather kill the enemy.
On the other hand, you do have a responsibility not to get the group killed, and provide enough utility that you're an asset, not a liability.
It's irrelevant whether crafting uses up any of the player's time. It uses up the character's time. Role-playing requires you to work our what your character would do if asked to put in hours of work on an ally's behalf. Do it only for people you really like? Refuse outright? Do it for free because you're a nice guy? Do it for free because your quest is too important to compromise? Ask for something in return?
However, when creating a character you should accept group-defined restrictions on levels of PvP and morality, and not create a selfish character if that's not the acceptable to the party dynamic.
There's more than one valid party dynamic. In some games, everyone works for the good of the group all the time. That's OK, but it's not compulsory.
In one game I heard about, one of the players was playing a thief whose sole objective was to rob the rest of the party. This led to him being tied up, disarmed and sent ahead of the party to scout and trigger all the traps in a dungeon. It's not always a good idea to play like that, but it's OK. It leads to memorable stories.
An agreement that everyone contributes, shares the risks and shares the wealth equally during adventuring doesn't automatically imply a similar deal about downtime.
Crafters profiting from other characters can mess up party character balance, but that's pretty messed up already. So are the game economics. According to the FAQs, Crafters aren't supposed to use their crafting to help the rest of the party. So the intended character balance is even more weighted in favor of crafters than in the OP's situation. And any system that requires crafters not to craft for others but provides no in game reason from them not to other than it's "too powerful" is a poor rule. (The GM can fix party wealth imbalance by dropping only items that the low-wealth characters need - this is probably the best way.)
Anyway, if you think charging for downtime services is always wrong, you probably have different assumptions, which you probably didn't bother to state because you though they were obvious.
Actually, as shown by the FAQ about WBL it is a feature meant to be used only for yourself.
Getting magic items at half price is the benefit of the feat, and it is meant to be usable only by the guy with the feat.
What FAQ are you referring to? I can't see any actually stating that. The only one I can see talking about "crafting characters and non-crafting characters" actually states that "If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost." Nothing in this statement actually distinguishes between items crafting for yourself, and items crafted for anyone else.
And speaking of WBL, it is pretty important to establish that we are speaking about guidelines, not hard rules. It is a GM tool to balance equipment with a certain level.
While there is an overall suggestion, that a character with a crafting feat should amount to an overall boost to WBL about 25% of a single character's WBL, the suggestions also mentions distributing this bonus amongst the group.
However in practice, while the rough guidelines can help a GM, the amount of equipment typically vary above or below WBL, especially between characters.
As such, there isn't predetermined amounts you are sure to have at any given point of the gave. Since there isn't, having crafting feats does not equal "I have 25 % more than the rest".
I might have missed another faq stating something like "Your allies cannot benefit from your crafting feats", if so, please enlighten me.
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Actually, as shown by the FAQ about WBL it is a feature meant to be used only for yourself.
Getting magic items at half price is the benefit of the feat, and it is meant to be usable only by the guy with the feat.What FAQ are you referring to? I can't see any actually stating that. The only one I can see talking about "crafting characters and non-crafting characters" actually states that "If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost." Nothing in this statement actually distinguishes between items crafting for yourself, and items crafted for anyone else.
And speaking of WBL, it is pretty important to establish that we are speaking about guidelines, not hard rules. It is a GM tool to balance equipment with a certain level.
While there is an overall suggestion, that a character with a crafting feat should amount to an overall boost to WBL about 25% of a single character's WBL, the suggestions also mentions distributing this bonus amongst the group.However in practice, while the rough guidelines can help a GM, the amount of equipment typically vary above or below WBL, especially between characters.
As such, there isn't predetermined amounts you are sure to have at any given point of the gave. Since there isn't, having crafting feats does not equal "I have 25 % more than the rest".I might have missed another faq stating something like "Your allies cannot benefit from your crafting feats", if so, please enlighten me.
PC Wealth By Level: If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/14/12
Notice how the question is about a character with the feat and SKR in the reply speak of the character with the feat and how he say that the benefit is for the character with the feat. If you read the thread that originated that FAQ it is more clear.
It was stated in even clearer terms in the UCamp book:
Adjusting Character Wealth by Level
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
And, from the mouth of a Developer:
Thank you to Benchak for explaining my point before I logged on this morning. :)
To clarify in my own words:
I especially dislike the idea that the wizard is obligated by virtue of having his crafting feat to provide services to the group,Characters with crafting feats are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.
paid for out of his own treasure share.The WBL alterations for a crafting character do not take away treasure for the crafting character in any way other than the normal costs described in the Core Rulebook, whether you are crafting for yourself or someone else.
I hope this isn't really what the book says, and that I've misunderstood this part.Which is why I originally said, "That's not what it says at all."
And...
How much clearer can "The increased wealth for the other characters should come out of YOUR increased allotment" be? It is your increased wealth which you are supposed to give up.That isn't taking treasure or wealth away from the wizard. It's saying "you can't use these rules to double the amount of gear for everyone in the party, there is a limit, that limit is +25% of your wealth, whether you decide to apply that to yourself or someone else." To repeat:
• The crafting character is not obligated to make items.
• The crafting character is not obligated to make items for other members of the party.
• Nothing in the rules (Core Rulebook or Ultimate Campaign) says the crafting character has to use his own treasure to pay for the crafting of items for other characters. If Bazravakia the Barbarian wants Salazar the Sorcerer to craft some magic boots, Baz should hand Sal a bunch of gold. Sal can also say "no, I'm using my full +25% for myself, get your own damn crafting feat."So there is no contradiction between what I said in response to kenmckinney and magnuskn's quote of what the book says.
Let me explain something very simple to these people: The crafter's combat role is not to craft. He is performing his combat role... AND crafting.The OP has said that the crafter is very effective in combat. He is performing his combat role... AND crafting. Do you understand yet? No? Very well.
The fighter refusing to fight? He is failing in his combat role AND doing nothing outside of combat.
The buffer refusing to buff? He is failing in his combat role AND doing nothing outside of combat.
The rogue refusing to find traps? He has no combat role AND is refusing to do anything outside of combat.
So a cleric could do his in combat job by fighting and refuse to heal out of combat. His in combat job is to fight and his out of combat job is to do whatever he pleases.
And to tell the rogue that he has no in combat job is stupid and an insult. He might be worse in combat than others but that's not the point.
So if he refuses to craft for you, you withhold his treasure?
I will ask a simple question : why does he have to craft items for the party ?
He isn't.
He gets his fair share of the rewards, what he doesn't get is 'extra'.
That could cause a he or I scenario where the rest of the party decides who leaves.
(Although I also like the idea of making items that deliberately are restricted to NOT work for Shifty's class/race/alignment.) Your ranger wants Boots of Elvenkind? Sure, no problem. Here you are; they work for monks only.
And this would turn the scenario into a out game he or I one. Time is too short to play with unsocial CN players.
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Well, if you insists that crafting is why you hired me as a wizard, i would simple do the crafting while you guys are out fighting the monsters and still want my share of the treasure (25% if we are a "4"-man party).
Then you can get your items with the full discount (but good luck with that monsters as a effective 3-man party without an arcane caster).
If i travel with you and fight with you i get the full share of the loot regardless of what i do in my downtime.
If i happen to craft some items in my downtime and sell them to you below the listed price you should bloody well be grateful!
And if you start to charge me for every little thing you do in combat, i am total fine with it.
As your employer i am happy to play for your services the amount you can find in the rulebook.
But know that then i will pocket all the treasure we find. Lets see who made the better deal by that...
While I can see being miffed the rules don't have a built in way to handle such things, the more I GM the more I find myself being able to bend, ignore, and invent new rules to help the party do what it wants to do all in ways that make sense and help the narrative.
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It's not in my experience that there's something so major to do in downtime that the caster is missing out on. My experience is that downtime is "crafting time".
There's no special secret session that the crafter isn't invited to while the other PCs are laughing at a ball, dancing, saving the day and earning exp that the crafter is missing out on.
Assuming that the crafter really is missing out on stuff like that, sure he's entitled to charge. So if that's your experience, I can understand and respect your opinion.
My experience is:
You have two months downtime, what do you do?
Caster: I craft magic items.
Everyone else: I dunno, is there anything to do? By definition of down-time there are no jobs requiring our special talents, so make a profession check for like 20gp?
The real situation is more like (with out of scenes vocabulary) :
DM : "You have 2 months downtime. What do you do ?"Caster : "I will improve my circlet of intelligence, and scribe a couple scrolls with the time left."
Fighter : "I need my amulet of natural armor improved. Can you help me ?"
Rogue : "I need my new pair of boots that allows me to be much more silent. Can you help me ?"
The fact is : the caster will use his downtime for himself if what he wants seems better for himself than doing it for others.
Downtime is limited : 2 months means you can craft a couple items, not every items the party wants to have, or even the items they "needs".
With the 10% fee, he will manage to get the money he needs to buy his scrolls instead of scribing them, freeing time to craft the needed items for others. And he will allow the fighter to choose its items proprieties AND get a 40% discount. Even the most magic-mart-y campaign doesn't have such advantages.
In the OP's case : downtime is handwaved for the players. That doesn't mean it does for the characters.
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The real situation is more like (with out of scenes vocabulary) :
DM : "You have 2 months downtime. What do you do ?"
Caster : "I will improve my circlet of intelligence, and scribe a couple scrolls with the time left."
Fighter : "I need my amulet of natural armor improved. Can you help me ?"
Rogue : "I need my new pair of boots that allows me to be much more silent. Can you help me ?"
No, it's really like:
DM : "You have 2 months downtime. What do you do ?"
Crafter 1: "I will improve my circlet of intelligence, and scribe a couple scrolls with the time left."
Crafter 2: "I can scribe those scrolls for you. Perhaps that saves you enough time for XY."
Crafter 3: "Before I go working on a couple of flasks of acid, does anyone need some alchemicals?"
Crafter4: "In fact you could help me craft this silversheen sword the cleric wants. And while I'm on it, could I sometime get a belt of constitution?"
Crafter1: "Alright, I see what I can do. When I'm finished with my circlet I'll work on your stuff. And I could use some flasks of alchemist's fire and some of acid as power components."
Ranger: "After crafting's taken care off, whose horse didn't I train for combat yet?"
To be clearer on my expectations when I suggest that the caster not charge a margin:
The party chips in for party items.
The party shares with the crafter an equal split of whatever they get during their downtime opportunities that the crafter misses out on.
So how does the crafter benefit from retraining if he doesn't actually have the time to do it?
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After all the aggro and bitterness shown, I was reluctant to join in. But I am anyway ;) It's a bit long.
I am currently playing a wizard with 2 crafting feats. We're playing Rise of the Runelords so:
1) I'm NG, a very helpful and kind wizard;
2) the whole party pulls together and tries our best to help each other, even the CN summoner;
3) there is a major evil rising which threatens us all so we have incentive to work together;
4) downtime is strictly limited;
5) every character does something useful during downtime to help the group as a whole - even if the CN summoner spends a lot of his time 'making friends' with local dryads (ho hum). Earning favours is still worth while. Others are training guards, generating magical capital, etc.
With all of those circumstances, I do all my crafting 'at cost' and do as much for the others as possible. Making celestial armour for the Paladin benefits me more than making bracers of armour for myself - I'm sure I don't have to explain why.
Now, change those circumstances to those of the OP's wizard:
1) he's CN, and from the later posts, not a friendly guy at all;
2) we have no information about the rest of the party's attitude;
3) we have no information about any major evil or incentive to work together other than to 'kill things and take their stuff';
4) downtime is effectively unlimited;
5) no one else appears to want to do anything during downtime - I see no reason why the other players can't read up on the downtime rules and make it easy for the GM. If the GM thinks it's too complicated, then help him/her out guys!
In these circumstances, I see no problem with charging 10% for crafting. As others have pointed out, Sean K Reynolds has posted to clarify matters before: No crafter is in any way obligated to craft stuff for other party members. Likewise, no other party members are obligated to buy from a crafter.
This has nothing at all to do with the 'on an adventure' part of a character's 'job'. A wizard can do his 'job' well enough regardless of which feats he's taken. From the OP's follow-up post, the reason(s) for booting the wizard should be for him behaving like an obnoxious jerk and nothing to do with his crafting services! (The same reason for booting anyone, whatever their class.)
As for the 'stealing from the party' argument: Has anyone else done the maths?
Assuming a 4 person party:
3 people each buy an item worth 1000gp from the 4th, paying him 600gp each but which costs 500gp to make. Result: each of the 3 people have gained 400gp-worth of 'stuff'. How much has the crafter gained? 400gp.
Yes, he can then turn that 400gp into 800gp-worth of 'stuff'. The normal limits on this are the downtime (along with the gold) - if the OP (or anyone else) doesn't like the amount of downtime, talk to the GM about it. Therefore, with unlimited downtime and/or no other character doing anything useful, the crafter should be charging 5% as a minimum or the rest of the party is 'stealing' from the crafter!
For me the most important factors are: the crafter's personality; and whether I am crafting for close personal friends or for business acquaintances. I try to play nice guys, who adventure with trusted friends so don't charge, but if I were playing a mercenary type, with eg a barbarian who keeps threatening me with violence if I don't follow orders, well he can expect to pay me a bit extra and might need to watch out for cursed items...
To be clearer on my expectations when I suggest that the caster not charge a margin:
The party chips in for party items.
The party shares with the crafter an equal split of whatever they get during their downtime opportunities that the crafter misses out on.
So how does the crafter benefit from retraining if he doesn't actually have the time to do it?
If the crafter needs to retrain, then he retrains instead of crafting. He isn't required to prioritize crafting over retraining.
And sure, if the crafter doesn't have time to get to everyone's gear, he's allowed to prioritize himself first. But in the next off-season he should make stuff for those he didn't get to the first time (unless they've found the right loot and no longer need urgent upgrades).
In my last game my Fighter loaned the Wizard enough gold for him to make his +4 Int Headband when he otherwise couldn't afford it. I didn't charge him interest, though it certainly would've been within my rights, agreed?
I expect (and return) full party cooperation. For me the game is more fun when the PCs aren't trying to rub a profit off each other.
Lemme guess... he's a wizard who is also expected to cast Haste every fight and have spells prepared to handle OOC situations because no one wanted to play a rogue?Yeah, he's a wizard that dominates the game via combat and doesn't makes the game less fun for other people. He is the main damage dealer and this is because he gets the money from other party members and crafts numerous wondrous items. There is a rogue and the rogue does not do anything since the wizard takes care of the situation before the rogue can even do anything. He wants to be the spotlight and he made his character to be the main driving force of the party and shadow everyone else. He only heals himself and doesn't cast spells to anyone else for the reason of "I have limited spells". Also he threatens to kill the party members if they piss him off IRL and now he has raised the price to 75% and is now screwing everyone else and now we are all at his mercy.
TL;DR You are correct, he is that kind of wizard
So why exactly are the other characters still traveling with him? Have you tried talking to the other characters to see what they think of the current situation? If his character is being such an ass to all the others then why don't you just form a new party without that wizard in it?
Note that I'm not saying that you should kick the player, I'm just saying that if his character is doing his very best not to fit in with the rest of the party and is doing his very best to get everybody else on his bad side, then you might as well leave him behind. Just take off while your at an Inn, in the middle of the night. Effectively forcing the player in question to make a new character.
In the end it's a bit of a silly question. I don't mean that it's less serious, more that...it should be handled in a clean, clear way that's consistent throughout.
To that end...
A. Downtime activities are done at-cost or free. Generally, services and assistance out of combat is generally provided at-cost with no overhead. In this system, the cost for crafting items comes out of a party pool or general treasure, the same as for other activities and items the party needs.
B. Downtime activities have a set and consistent rate.
That is, if I play a divine caster and instead of spending time at my temple or my own projects, I provide a service for you, then:
(Caster level × spell level × 10 gp) *.75
...would be my going rate, with the 25% discount given for a friend.
It would make sense for the rogue for example, or bard, to charge similarly when expending time on some else's behalf.
In sum, just because I play a class <x> or placed my skill points into <y> does not mean I'm required to provide services to the group. However, I can provide them at a discounted rate.
Whatever rate that is (cost or free versus small mark-up) should be consistent with charges for other forms of downtime activities. Given PF's downtime system, there are certainly other things they could be doing.
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Characters with crafting feats are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.
Exactly! Being able to craft stuff does not make the character the party's slave.
My view: If a party member chose to make stuff for me for free, I would personally feel that I needed to do something extra for that character in return. If, instead, the character asked for a modest payment in gold (while still giving me a better deal than I could ever expect from an NPC), that would "let me off the hook" (as it were). Either way, I would not feel that the other party member "owed" it to me to make me stuff for free.
I will add that I have never played a character who can craft anything, so my attitude is that of one who would be the beneficiary of a party member who can craft and is willing to craft for the other party members.
Every member of the party is essentially a high level special ops character. It is foolish to make any of them feel threatened much less all of them. Stepping to the side and allow enemy X to have easy access to the caster and claiming tactical error is always an option, assuming he does not "mysteriously" die in his sleep.With that aside he is under no obligation to craft for anyone other than himself.
Another party member can craft magic items with a two feat investment. He is only doing these things because you as a group allow it.It also seems like the GM is another problem, but I don't know what you can do about that. The ease of the encounters and handwaving certain rules is what I am referring to.
I was referring to the player not the character, hell i agree that charging to make just a little extra is still a screaming deal and they should just be happy for the massive discount.
But it seems the big problem is the player himself acting like a complete smack in and out of game, granted we are getting a one sided bias account but with the information given it seems like the player himself needs to be kicked out of the group until he can learn to play nice with others.
Every member of the party is essentially a high level special ops character. It is foolish to make any of them feel threatened much less all of them. Stepping to the side and allow enemy X to have easy access to the caster and claiming tactical error is always an option, assuming he does not "mysteriously" die in his sleep.With that aside he is under no obligation to craft for anyone other than himself.
Another party member can craft magic items with a two feat investment. He is only doing these things because you as a group allow it.It also seems like the GM is another problem, but I don't know what you can do about that. The ease of the encounters and handwaving certain rules is what I am referring to.
I was referring to the player not the character, hell i agree that charging to make just a little extra is still a screaming deal and they should just be happy for the massive discount.
But it seems the big problem is the player himself acting like a complete smack in and out of game, granted we are getting a one sided bias account but with the information given it seems like the player himself needs to be kicked out of the group until he can learn to play nice with others.
If he's really threatening to dominate the other party members of the like, I'd secret notes to the GM to steal his spellbook and rip out those pages. See how great he is when his source of power's significantly lighter.
Apparently only the guys making magic items should slave for the party good.
Go back and read the Op's posts. The DM handwaves all that. Downtime is just handwaved. There is no "slaving away".
Now sure, if you're using other books, and one PC is crafting magic items, while the others are off getting more HP or something in their downtime, sure, the crafter is giving something up. Not in this case.
So working to gather the magical capital isn't slaving away even for the other guys, right?
It very curious how people is willing to toss away the crafter downtime as non important but is against spending their downtime for the same purpose.
Either the downtime is unimportant for everyone or it is important for everyone, but instead you guys consistently use double standards.
"My downtime is untouchable, the crafter downtime is a party resource."
And the say the crafter is greedy.
Go look into a mirror.
Once again, you're not reading the OPs posts (nor the post you're responding to). The downtime here, in his games- is handwaved.
No one is giving up ANYTHING AT ALL by using their downtime. They are giving up less than a spellcaster doing a cantrip. The downtime is totally unimportant for everyone. It has no meaning at all. None, zero, zip, nada, zilch, negatory, etc.In other games, the sitrep is different.
Please read posts before responding angrily.
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Try to solve an OOC problem through IC violence.
Nah.
And your reply show that that you haven't looked the rules in question or what I said.To repeat it again how they work....
Which has absolutely NO Bearing at all in the OP's campaign, where the DM has a different set of houserules. You are making a argument based upon the RAW, which is fine and valid. Your argument has no merit at all in the OP's campaign under the Ops DM who does not play by those rules, but has houserules. Quoting the RAW is meaningless as the DM here does not play by the RAW.
So, to change what you said
" my reply shows that that I haven't read the Ops posts as to how his DM has changed the the rules in question or what other have said over and over"
"To repeat it again how they work... in other campaigns, but not this one."
I happily conceded several times that if the Op's DM is playing by the RAW, using the Downtime rules, and thus the crafting spellcaster is giving something up- then of course he needs to get something for his efforts. But in the Op's campaign- he's not giving up anything and there's no efforts.
It's amazing to me how people whine and moan about people dumping stats when there is actually a real cost to doing so, and calling them bad roleplayers; only for over here, they're acting like it's not only normal, but expected, and reasonable, to devote weeks of your character's life to crafting items for nothing, and that you're a jerk if you do otherwise, with the argument that there's no cost for doing so.
>_>
He's not devoting weeks. Here's what he's 'devoting" = "I craft XX, it takes this much time". DM: "Ok, done."
The cost for doing so is uttering one sentence. No time passes. No slaving. No efforts. No "real cost".One sentence. No time passes. No slaving. No efforts. No "real cost".
The sitrep in this campaign is different than it would be in other campaigns. You're making a argument which is perfectly valid is a normal RAW campaign, but is totally invalid in the OP's case, the guy we're replying to.
Yes, if I was a crafter in another campaign, one played by the rules, and the ranger was gaining Hit points during downtime, while I was crafting items for him, I'd expect some sort of deal. This is not the case here.
Characters with crafting feats are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.Exactly! Being able to craft stuff does not make the character the party's slave.
Characters with healing spells are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.
Characters with crafting feats are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.Exactly! Being able to craft stuff does not make the character the party's slave.
Characters with healing spells are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.
Also true.
If I'm in single combat with a BBEG, I don't have to drop everything and rush back to kiss your boo-boo and make it better.
If I'm saving my 4th level spell slots because I expect to need death ward in the next room, I am not obliged to cast a cure critical spell on you.
If I tell you not to touch the shiny obviously-trapped thing, and you do, I'm not obliged to heal you afterwards.
If you whine about any of those, the rest of my group will probably laugh at you.
On the other hand, if I'm simply playing the cleric as a dick just to be a dick, the figher is liable to come over with the rogue's sap in his hand, and when I wake up, the fighter says "now heal the wizard."
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I haven't seen Shifty or DrDeth put forward any arguments as for why it's a bad thing for the crafters to not get screwed, or even justified how the rest of the party could be such jerks as to tell the crafter player what he is and is not allowed to do with his character and his character's resources.
But then, it also seems that they seem to think a wizard with item creation feats is somehow less effective at combat, which means I doubt I'm going to see anything as in depth and complex as an argument that will begin to explain how keeping treasure in the party and giving the option of purchasing items at significant discounts to your entire party is somehow bad.
Because Craft Feats make wizards weaker. You heard it here first folks!
The Crafting Player can do anything he wants with his character, within the DM's limits. But the other players have the same rights.
Crafter player "I am going to charge you 10% for no effort on my part"
Other players: "We don't like that, or your overall attitude, you're out of the group". Or, Cleric "That will be 10 gps per HP healed, please".
I never said a wizard with item creation feats is weaker. Of course he gives up a direct combat option, but more magic items should make up for that.
And, if the Crafter doesn't charge a extra 10% the party still keeps treasure in the party and has the option of purchasing items at significant discounts to the entire party.
I haven't seen Shifty or DrDeth put forward any arguments as for why it's a bad thing for the crafters to not get screwed, or even justified how the rest of the party could be such jerks as to tell the crafter player what he is and is not allowed to do with his character and his character's resources.
But then, it also seems that they seem to think a wizard with item creation feats is somehow less effective at combat, which means I doubt I'm going to see anything as in depth and complex as an argument that will begin to explain how keeping treasure in the party and giving the option of purchasing items at significant discounts to your entire party is somehow bad.
Because Craft Feats make wizards weaker. You heard it here first folks!
The Crafting Player can do anything he wants with his character, within the DM's limits. But the other players have the same rights.
Crafter player "I am going to charge you 10% for no effort on my part"
Other players: "We don't like that, or your overall attitude, you're out of the group". Or, Cleric "That will be 10 gps per HP healed, please".
I never said a wizard with item creation feats is weaker. Of course he gives up a direct combat option, but more magic items should make up for that.
And, if the Crafter doesn't charge a extra 10% the party still keeps treasure in the party and has the option of purchasing items at significant discounts to the entire party.
There are guidelines in the rules for charging for spellcasting, to be sure. It's important to have some consistency, though, just as with any rule set.
If downtime activity comes with a fee, then it comes with a fee. If it doesn't, then it doesn't.
However, we shouldn't selectively apply that fee. That is, for some things and not for others.
A rogue spending ranks each level is an investment, after all, and we're asking them to spend their downtime say, not picking pockets or casing that noble's house. Alternately, we're asking the priest to not spend time supporting their temple.
To repeat it again how they work:
And once again, you are incorrect.
The rules do not do what you are suggesting they do.
(That said, it could be said that much of this discussion also goes against the spiritually cooperative nature of the game. It's a discussion we should have though, with the rise of environments such as PFS where players are more random and gaming groups are more fluid.)
For a player in that situation, they can have a consistent set of guidelines.
For my own set of games, I'd offer either A or B, and let players choose how they want to run. I suspect more established groups, who trusted each other more and with a greater camaraderie, would choose A.
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Characters with crafting feats are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.Exactly! Being able to craft stuff does not make the character the party's slave.
Characters with healing spells are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.
Wand of CLW. Win...
Wad of CLW. Win...
And one of infernal healing for the times you know you have a spare minute, better bang for buck.