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Well, if I had a crafter in the party who had spent feat slots on item creation feats, I would gladly pay his asking price. It is still a bargain compared to buying items in the open market.
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If you do not like him benefiting from his feats, why don't you sacrifice some combat abilities & spend your feats on crafting?
That'll show him.
The crafter in one of my games charges an extra 10% to craft our magic items. So I guess that comes to 55% of the total item cost. I personally think that's fair as they did sacrifice the feats and it is still a great boon to your wealth by level. The only real issue I see with it is how completely unbalanced a crafter's wealth could become in a four or five member party.
It's also important to remember that the crafter is also sacrificing his time to craft that item, time he could conceivably be using to either craft his own items or possibly earn gold in another way.
Don't see it as charging the party members 60% but as a 10% fee for his time and effort.
Look, a crafted item has 50% material costs as hard costs. At 50% cost. the item is free to the party member fronting the cost but consider the crafter has taken one or more Item Creation feats when he could have taken feats with more utility. 10% cash in my pocket is the least I would expect from party members if I was the crafter, since they are getting the item at 40% below fair market value. The alternative is buying the item at fair market value less any discount the party can barter.
currently, in my game, the crafter is charging 60% for the magic items that he crafts for us.
Personally I find it a bit greedy on the crafter's part
The crafter counters my argument by saying "I'm Chaotic Neutral, I can charge you whatever I want"
Is it right, as a member of the party, to charge other people? For it is ultimately benefiting the party as a whole.
And him charging the party doesn't benefit the party? It's not like the money is lost, he's probably investing it in an extra magic item or two on his side, which will benefit the party too.
Overall I don't think it's necessarily greedy on the crafter's part. He's spending time creating stuff for the party, while he does that the rest of the party could be earning more money. And from that point of view the rest of the party could be considered to be acting greedy by wanting the crafter to spend his time working for the party for free, while they can use their time to earn more money. Overall I think the party should look at it from a more positive point of view. More like, "thanks for that 40% discount man".
So who really is greedy in that situation?
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Is the crafter a gimp otherwise? In other words, is his ability to craft a significant fraction of what makes him 'worth his freight' as a party member collecting an even share of the treasure?
Oh nooooo, our GM is terrible at following rules so for crafting. Lets say that it takes 30 days to craft an item, our GM would just be like "30 days passed and he finishes crafting" allowing the crafter to be in combat and claim loot, exp, ect...
Also the only thing crafter did was put 1 feat into craft wondrous items. Which in my opinion is really broken because it allows him to create most items for half the price, all for just one feat.
Btw, the crafter is a wizard so he is like... overpowered in combat...
Being a non-spell caster, I cannot take the feat, craft wondrous items.If you do not like him benefiting from his feats, why don't you sacrifice some combat abilities & spend your feats on crafting?
That'll show him.
In other words, you wanted items crafted for you for free. My advice - Pay the 10% overhead and be happy.
Have you talked to the GM about allowing the downtime system from Ultimate Campaign? This will give meaning to downtime for other characters as well.
Have you talked to the GM about allowing the downtime system from Ultimate Campaign? This will give meaning to downtime for other characters as well.I have, however, he dismissed the idea for "being complicating"...
Maybe you could run it via email in the downtime between sessions? All you'd have to do is keep track of how long the mage spends crafting and allow the other players to use that time as they wish.
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Dude if you really want free items get the feats to craft yourself, and don't give me that "I'm not a caster" stuff. There are ways around that, hell a commoner human can become a litch if he/she really wants, you can craft if you really want, it's just going to be an investment.
Also wizards are strong, but they are very expensive to play, as you need to buy most of your spells, so he's not really going to be hugely ahead of the game in terms of coinage.
You say he hasn't sacrificed for crafting? How would you like to lose your third level feat? It's not 'just one feat' now is it? It's 'one whole bloody feat I could have spent on augment summoning, or qualifying for spell perfection'.
What do you do while he's crafting? You could be doing things like crafting arrows, when you can't buy those suckers it's like shooting gold. While he's crafting your item hypothetically for free, do you know what he wants to be doing? Scribing spells into his spell book, and scribing scrolls, that takes ridiculous time especially as you go on. So yeah he charges for the inconvenience of not being able to maintain his class features.
Also what rules forbid a crafter from participating in combat. You can adventure no more than 8 hours per day, craft no more than 8 hours per day, and you must sleep about 8 hours per day. Where is the conflict? You do realize he can stop crafting for the adventuring part of the day, he is not sewn to the crafting bench. (though if you adventure crafting becomes slower, but that's not the point)
Could you point to a page in the rule book that states a crafter cannot participate in combat?
Yeah, I'm a crafter (as a magus) in my current game, and I've invested significantly so that it could work around combat. I want to be a construct-master of some sort later. And I always charge 100 gp per 1000 gp of the item. Why? Because in the time I'm crafting, other people are doing other things. It's also a significant investment of time and GP (IE, artificer's kit (to craft on the move) & ring of sustenance (more craft time) & the occasional booster for hard craftings). I think it's fair, and no-one in my group has complained yet.
It's important to note that by the guidelines of the game, any "savings" the other players get on an item comes out of the CRAFTER'S WBL.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items
(search "Adjusting Character Wealth by Level")
And a single crafting feat is only worth about a 25% increase in WBL, which he looses the more he crafts for you.
I second hogeyhead's comment about scribing spells into the spellbook, the time is silly long.
In other words, you wanted items crafted for you for free. My advice - Pay the 10% overhead and be happy.Um no, since I still pay the 50% price for the item. What I'm saying is that the 10% extra charge is a bit greedy on his part since he still gets the share of the loot and exp.
Ironically, you are in actuality being more greedy than the crafter you are complaining about.
If you were both worth 20,000 gp and you commissioned him to make you an item that you would normally pay 10k gp for at 60% of the price instead, you would in the end be worth 24,000 gp while he 21,000 gp. You still ended up 3,000 gp richer than you would be had you gone to a merchant.
What do you mean? Lets say the same situation and I had 12k gold to spend and he had 12k gold to spend.
I pay him 12k gold for an item worth 20k. He crafts it for me and I have no money with a 20k gear.
He now has 14k gold to spend and can craft a 28k worth of an item. Now he has no money and has 28k gear
This will eventually stack up to the point where he completely surpass me, which is what I'm worried about.
Okay, so I would call this a "spotlight" issue. You're afraid that over time he'll accrue more/better gear and make you and the other players spectators in combat. This is something that you guys should address as a group.
A few questions:
- Would you have an issue with this if the mage spent the extra gold on luxury items?
- Has this imbalance already started to play out in combats? If not, would you be willing to wait to see if this becomes an issue?
In other words, you wanted items crafted for you for free. My advice - Pay the 10% overhead and be happy.Um no, since I still pay the 50% price for the item. What I'm saying is that the 10% extra charge is a bit greedy on his part since he still gets the share of the loot and exp.
Ironically, you are in actuality being more greedy than the crafter you are complaining about.
If you were both worth 20,000 gp and you commissioned him to make you an item that you would normally pay 10k gp for at 60% of the price instead, you would in the end be worth 24,000 gp while he 21,000 gp. You still ended up 3,000 gp richer than you would be had you gone to a merchant.
What do you mean? Lets say the same situation and I had 12k gold to spend and he had 12k gold to spend.
I pay him 12k gold for an item worth 20k. He crafts it for me and I have no money with a 20k gear.
He now has 14k gold to spend and can craft a 28k worth of an item. Now he has no money and has 28k gear
This will eventually stack up to the point where he completely surpass me, which is what I'm worried about.
Ok, using your numbers.
You both have 12k gp.
You pay him 12k gp which at 60% means you are getting an item worth 20k gp. Your total worth is now 20k gp, which for you is a 8k gp increase over what you should have compared to buying at a merchant. You just got paid 8k gp.
He, on the other hand, got 12k gp from you, but then had to spend 10k gp on materials and crafting expenses (you know 50% of the items worth). This means he got to keep 2k gp and is now worth 14k gp.
Your total worth 20k gp. His total worth 14k gp.
Dude if you really want free items get the feats to craft yourself, and don't give me that "I'm not a caster" stuff. There are ways around that, hell a commoner human can become a litch if he/she really wants, you can craft if you really want, it's just going to be an investment.
Also wizards are strong, but they are very expensive to play, as you need to buy most of your spells, so he's not really going to be hugely ahead of the game in terms of coinage.
You say he hasn't sacrificed for crafting? How would you like to lose your third level feat? It's not 'just one feat' now is it? It's 'one whole bloody feat I could have spent on augment summoning, or qualifying for spell perfection'.
What do you do while he's crafting? You could be doing things like crafting arrows, when you can't buy those suckers it's like shooting gold. While he's crafting your item hypothetically for free, do you know what he wants to be doing? Scribing spells into his spell book, and scribing scrolls, that takes ridiculous time especially as you go on. So yeah he charges for the inconvenience of not being able to maintain his class features.
Um, actually, he does NOT want to be scribing his books since he just joined the game and already has like tons and second we are at lv 10 and wizards apparently don't rely on feats as much as other classes which is what the crafter admitted himself. Also all templates are banned in our game due to them being "overpowered" so no lich, vampire or any of that.
EDIT: Also as I mentioned before, all crafting, scribing are done INSTANTLY due to bad GMing.
Well, we cant help GM-ing. If this is that much of an issue to you, talk to your GM to get those applied. That's the best I can say. If you're here to vent, well, we cant exactly do anything, can we?
Ironically, you are in actuality being more greedy than the crafter you are complaining about.
If you were both worth 20,000 gp and you commissioned him to make you an item that you would normally pay 10k gp for at 60% of the price instead, you would in the end be worth 24,000 gp while he 21,000 gp. You still ended up 3,000 gp richer than you would be had you gone to a merchant.
What do you mean? Lets say the same situation and I had 12k gold to spend and he had 12k gold to spend.
I pay him 12k gold for an item worth 20k. He crafts it for me and I have no money with a 20k gear.
He now has 14k gold to spend and can craft a 28k worth of an item. Now he has no money and has 28k gear
This will eventually stack up to the point where he completely surpass me, which is what I'm worried about.
Well, would you prefer:
You both have 12k. You ask for him to make an item for you worth 20k, but he tells you to go climb a tree He makes an item worth 24k.
That basically seems to be the alternative.
If you want to be able to get items at cost, you can take feats for it.
Note: the point of crafting feats is to get more items; if they dont have more items than the rest, it's a wasted feat isnt it? And like I said before, your savings are coming out of HIS WBL.
So, let's say 10 k WBL (NOT GP) is appropriate for your given level. CWI adds 25% to WBL, so he can have 12.5 k, while you have 10k. Now, let's say he crafts you an item of price 5k (cost 2.5 k), and charges you just 2.5 k. The "savings" you get cost 2.5k to him; thus now you've "taken" the extra 2.5 k he got.
The problem with a lot of systems like that is that people dont get properly aware of the rules. WBL is a guideline of gp value of a character's items, not an amount of GP a character should get. THe rules are there to moderate crafting, just nobody uses them.
Note due: martials can take crafting feats through the feat "master craftsman". So, you've got an extra feat cost, and if your GM is playing as you seem to indicate, that cost wont be much.
I'd go with "if you don't like the prices, shop elsewhere." You don't have the right to tell him how to use his feats, and he isn't trying to tell you how to use yours. He could easily up the price even more because the alternative is you paying 100% of the item costs. In your shoes I'd pay the 60% and do so happily. This isn't a race to the finishline to see who wins, you are a team. If he, in the end, has more gear due to the feat that he chose then good for him. You'd have far less stuff if you were paying full price.
I've recently started playing a character with a 10% discount to crafting cost.
I'm considering charging the party standard cost and keeping the savings as compensation for crafting time (while the rest attend to their own downtime affairs). My character doesn't get to spend time dealing with other things during downtime.
I've recently started playing a character with a 10% discount to crafting cost.
I'm considering charging the party standard cost and keeping the savings as compensation for crafting time (while the rest attend to their own downtime affairs). My character doesn't get to spend time dealing with other things during downtime.
How do you get the 10%? I know "hedge wizard" (trait) gives you 5%, and there's another I cant remember that gives another 5%, but they're both magic traits so you cant have both.
In other words, you wanted items crafted for you for free. My advice - Pay the 10% overhead and be happy.Um no, since I still pay the 50% price for the item. What I'm saying is that the 10% extra charge is a bit greedy on his part since he still gets the share of the loot and exp.
Ironically, you are in actuality being more greedy than the crafter you are complaining about.
If you were both worth 20,000 gp and you commissioned him to make you an item that you would normally pay 10k gp for at 60% of the price instead, you would in the end be worth 24,000 gp while he 21,000 gp. You still ended up 3,000 gp richer than you would be had you gone to a merchant.
What do you mean? Lets say the same situation and I had 12k gold to spend and he had 12k gold to spend.
I pay him 12k gold for an item worth 20k. He crafts it for me and I have no money with a 20k gear.
He now has 14k gold to spend and can craft a 28k worth of an item. Now he has no money and has 28k gear
This will eventually stack up to the point where he completely surpass me, which is what I'm worried about.
Ok, using your numbers.
You both have 12k gp.
You pay him 12k gp which at 60% means you are getting an item worth 20k gp. Your total worth is now 20k gp, which for you is a 8k gp increase over what you should have compared to buying at a merchant. You just got paid 8k gp.
He, on the other hand, got 12k gp from you, but then had to spend 10k gp on materials and crafting expenses (you know 50% of the items worth). This means he got to keep 2k gp and is now worth 14k gp.
Your total worth 20k gp. His total worth 14k gp.
Actually it's worse than that he only has one item creation feat
You each have 12 k, he crafts 10k, nearly 100%, however he is entitled only to 25% more so 3k. He is entitled to 15 k, and 10 k comes out of that. So his wealth is 5k with 9k inaccessible and in ethereal space.
In other words, you wanted items crafted for you for free. My advice - Pay the 10% overhead and be happy.Um no, since I still pay the 50% price for the item. What I'm saying is that the 10% extra charge is a bit greedy on his part since he still gets the share of the loot and exp.
Ironically, you are in actuality being more greedy than the crafter you are complaining about.
If you were both worth 20,000 gp and you commissioned him to make you an item that you would normally pay 10k gp for at 60% of the price instead, you would in the end be worth 24,000 gp while he 21,000 gp. You still ended up 3,000 gp richer than you would be had you gone to a merchant.
What do you mean? Lets say the same situation and I had 12k gold to spend and he had 12k gold to spend.
I pay him 12k gold for an item worth 20k. He crafts it for me and I have no money with a 20k gear.
He now has 14k gold to spend and can craft a 28k worth of an item. Now he has no money and has 28k gear
This will eventually stack up to the point where he completely surpass me, which is what I'm worried about.
Ok, using your numbers.
You both have 12k gp.
You pay him 12k gp which at 60% means you are getting an item worth 20k gp. Your total worth is now 20k gp, which for you is a 8k gp increase over what you should have compared to buying at a merchant. You just got paid 8k gp.
He, on the other hand, got 12k gp from you, but then had to spend 10k gp on materials and crafting expenses (you know 50% of the items worth). This means he got to keep 2k gp and is now worth 14k gp.
Your total worth 20k gp. His total worth 14k gp.
The crafter's wealth is potentially 28k because it is not as though he is not going to be crafting his own gear too. If you factor in crafted gear on one side of the equation you have to do it on the other too for a fair comparison.
In other words, you wanted items crafted for you for free. My advice - Pay the 10% overhead and be happy.Um no, since I still pay the 50% price for the item. What I'm saying is that the 10% extra charge is a bit greedy on his part since he still gets the share of the loot and exp.
Ironically, you are in actuality being more greedy than the crafter you are complaining about.
If you were both worth 20,000 gp and you commissioned him to make you an item that you would normally pay 10k gp for at 60% of the price instead, you would in the end be worth 24,000 gp while he 21,000 gp. You still ended up 3,000 gp richer than you would be had you gone to a merchant.
What do you mean? Lets say the same situation and I had 12k gold to spend and he had 12k gold to spend.
I pay him 12k gold for an item worth 20k. He crafts it for me and I have no money with a 20k gear.
He now has 14k gold to spend and can craft a 28k worth of an item. Now he has no money and has 28k gear
This will eventually stack up to the point where he completely surpass me, which is what I'm worried about.
Ok, using your numbers.
You both have 12k gp.
You pay him 12k gp which at 60% means you are getting an item worth 20k gp. Your total worth is now 20k gp, which for you is a 8k gp increase over what you should have compared to buying at a merchant. You just got paid 8k gp.
He, on the other hand, got 12k gp from you, but then had to spend 10k gp on materials and crafting expenses (you know 50% of the items worth). This means he got to keep 2k gp and is now worth 14k gp.
Your total worth 20k gp. His total worth 14k gp.
Actually it's worse than that he only has one item creation feat
You each have 12 k, he crafts 10k, nearly 100%, however he is entitled only to 25% more so 3k. He is entitled to 15 k, and 10 k comes out of that. So his wealth is 5k with 9k...
i think some of you guys are slipping on the WBL calculations.
And to the OP if you feel he is over priced? Buy your stuff from another merchant.As it is now you get 900 pr 1000 you buy in his shop in extra worth. He only get 100.
If he build a amulet of natural Armor+1 (produktion cost 1000) and sell it to you for 1100 (marked Price is 2000) illustrationer make 900 he only make 100.
Yes in time he will be more powerfull than you. But you will still be more powerfull than you would have been without him. It is like Richardos Comparative advantage.
Again, that is you forcing him on how to play his character. He is CN, which means it is ENTIRELY logical to charge his party members. He is not a charity, he does not do things for free. He is being "generous" by offering you a discount. The people being greedy and selfish are the guys trying to guilt-trip him into doing something he does not want to, nor has any inclination to, do.
currently, in my game, the crafter is charging 60% for the magic items that he crafts for us.
Personally I find it a bit greedy on the crafter's part
The crafter counters my argument by saying "I'm Chaotic Neutral, I can charge you whatever I want"
Is it right, as a member of the party, to charge other people? For it is ultimately benefiting the party as a whole.
It's his character. He can do what he wants.
I think making people pay for items he crafts at cost is perfectly okay; it's not benefiting the party as a whole if he's becoming the load by not being properly equipped, spending all his money to hand out goodies to the rest of the party.
I think his overcharging is a little greedy, yes, but there's very little you can do about that, other than not avail yourself to the use of his services. If you can get the rest of the party to join in, then he may lower his prices (or might not) because he won't be getting the extra income.
As noted above, though, you're still operating at a 40% or more discount over regular purchasing, so you're still coming out ahead, just not quite as far ahead.
The crafter's wealth is potentially 28k because it is not as though he is not going to be crafting his own gear too. If you factor in crafted gear on one side of the equation you have to do it on the other too for a fair comparison.
In other words, you wanted items crafted for you for free. My advice - Pay the 10% overhead and be happy.Um no, since I still pay the 50% price for the item. What I'm saying is that the 10% extra charge is a bit greedy on his part since he still gets the share of the loot and exp.
Ironically, you are in actuality being more greedy than the crafter you are complaining about.
If you were both worth 20,000 gp and you commissioned him to make you an item that you would normally pay 10k gp for at 60% of the price instead, you would in the end be worth 24,000 gp while he 21,000 gp. You still ended up 3,000 gp richer than you would be had you gone to a merchant.
What do you mean? Lets say the same situation and I had 12k gold to spend and he had 12k gold to spend.
I pay him 12k gold for an item worth 20k. He crafts it for me and I have no money with a 20k gear.
He now has 14k gold to spend and can craft a 28k worth of an item. Now he has no money and has 28k gear
This will eventually stack up to the point where he completely surpass me, which is what I'm worried about.
Ok, using your numbers.
You both have 12k gp.
You pay him 12k gp which at 60% means you are getting an item worth 20k gp. Your total worth is now 20k gp, which for you is a 8k gp increase over what you should have compared to buying at a merchant. You just got paid 8k gp.
He, on the other hand, got 12k gp from you, but then had to spend 10k gp on materials and crafting expenses (you know 50% of the items worth). This means he got to keep 2k gp and is now worth 14k gp.
Your total worth 20k gp. His total worth 14k gp.
Quite right. That is the benefit of spending a feat on crafting rather than on making the character better in combat situations.
Were I the buyer, I'd much prefer getting the item I want from the crafter at a 40% discount over not being able to afford one at all, since he doesn't have 20k gp for the 20k gp item. I'd also take a 20k vs. 28k net worth ratio over the (screw you buy it elsewhere) 12k vs. 24k net worth ratio.
But hey, math is hard for some people.
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I say your getting off cheap.
Robb, my street rat turned wizard, charges 75% minimum.
Be a jerk to him and it goes to 80%.
Don't like it, go to Magic-Mart and pay full price.
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You guys make me want to charge more from my fellow players.
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Oh nooooo, our GM is terrible at following rules so for crafting. Lets say that it takes 30 days to craft an item, our GM would just be like "30 days passed and he finishes crafting" allowing the crafter to be in combat and claim loot, exp, ect...
Well yeah i think it is well within his right to charge that ten percent mark up, to play devil's advocate...
If that is the problem you and the other members of your group have with him, have you tried saying "well we want to play those thirty days so while he is off crafting we want to go on an adventure, and possibly recruit a temporary while he is busy" Which while if he is playing his character and crafting it does not mean you have to stop yours being adventurers.
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Exactly what he said he would do if more people complained about this system. So we agreed to ask the forum for advice and so far, what I see is that 10% extra is the compensation for the time and effort he is putting into crafting.
Well, would you prefer:
You both have 12k. You ask for him to make an item for you worth 20k, but he tells you to go climb a tree He makes an item worth 24k.
That basically seems to be the alternative.
If you want to be able to get items at cost, you can take feats for it.
It looks like you're seeing what you want to see. It looks to me like most people are saying there shouldn't be a problem with it, for a variety of reasons that include basic economics.
However since our campaign cares not for the time and effort, since it's done instantly, there is no point in the 10% extra.
Don't confuse the character's time with the player's time. Even if the GM decides to fast-forward instantly through the two weeks it takes him to make your magic cloak, that's still two weeks that the character spent slaving over an alembic instead of doing something else.
From a basic economic perspective, you're still better off paying 60% of market value instead of 100%. Even if he charged you 95% of market value, you'd be better off. From an in-character point of view, it certainly makes sense that he would want to get an in-game benefit from something that he's doing at the request of and to benefit your character.
Of course, you could always use this as an opportunity in competitive asshattery. Every time the cleric casts cure light wounds on him, he gets charged 10gp as per standard prices. Ultimately, your character could simply decide not to adventure with his character, which would force the player to roll up a new character if he wants to continue adventuring with this group. I'd not recommend this path; it would tick off the GM and possibly poison friendships, but it's certainly an option for you.
Frankly, I don't think he's being unreasonable. An admittedly selfish character is nevertheless giving you an extremely deep discount and an opportunity for a substantial powerup. Especially as, if the GM is going by the rules-as-written with regard to character wealth-by-level, he still loses money by the deal he's offering you.
As was expressed above, you're being greedier than he is.
I don't like the idea that he used his alignment as an excuse, I think most any time I hear that the person has probably lost the argument, but in this case I side with him.
You are both better off using his method, and in truth, he doesn't owe you these items or his feat.
Whether or not I would charge the party would depend in large part on the tone of the party. If the tone of the party is everyone do everything they can to help everyone, I would probably do it at cost, but if people were kind of doing there own thing a lot, I would think 10% a steal. I know that if someone said I owed them my crafting skills, any chance of me doing the service for free would be shot right out the window.
It doesn't matter that he's charging less than full price. Charging more than raw material prices for crafting has the same deleterious effect on intra-party balance as stealing from the party.
If you want a crafting feat you need to be prepared to share. If you can't share leave the gum at home and don't take crafting feats.
What would you say to someone whose crafting cost is less than the usual 50%?
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It doesn't matter that he's charging less than full price. Charging more than raw material prices for crafting has the same deleterious effect on intra-party balance as stealing from the party.
If you want a crafting feat you need to be prepared to share. If you can't share leave the gum at home and don't take crafting feats.
This comment.. I mean... THAT is easily one of the most self-centered and arrogant statements ever. So, what you are sayign is, screw your character and his personality and his motives and EVERYTHING ELSE, and effectively waste his time FOR CHARITY because you are cheap? How about the crafter tells the rest of the party to shove it and buy items at full price and he just craft his own items...
What would you say to someone whose crafting cost is less than the usual 50%?It doesn't matter that he's charging less than full price. Charging more than raw material prices for crafting has the same deleterious effect on intra-party balance as stealing from the party.
If you want a crafting feat you need to be prepared to share. If you can't share leave the gum at home and don't take crafting feats.
It's still shifting wealth and 5% of wondrous item value for the whole party is still a lot of dosh. It may not create the same bad feelings going above standard sell price does, but it's not good for intra-party balance.
Your right to play antisocially ends where it starts to harm the party dynamics. If you want to play a miser or thief you're welcome to play Elder Scrolls or Dragon Age alone. If you want to play in a group setting you're obligated to play a character that doesn't harm the group dynamics.This comment.. I mean... THAT is easily one of the most self-centered and arrogant statements ever. So, what you are sayign is, screw your character and his personality and his motives and EVERYTHING ELSE, and effectively waste his time FOR CHARITY because you are cheap? How about the crafter tells the rest of the party to shove it and buy items at full price and he just craft his own items...It doesn't matter that he's charging less than full price. Charging more than raw material prices for crafting has the same deleterious effect on intra-party balance as stealing from the party.
If you want a crafting feat you need to be prepared to share. If you can't share leave the gum at home and don't take crafting feats.
Look man, I think you're forgetting that CWI does NOT double your gold. It increases you effective WBL by 25% 9according to PRICE, not COST). any economies made come out of the crafter's WBL. So for every "extra" they make for another, they LOOSE money for themselves. It does NOT double your money (or at least, the game isnt built around that assumption).
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If you want to play in a group setting you're obligated to play a character that doesn't harm the group dynamics.
Obligated, huh? That's a strong word. Are you going to physically remove the dice from the person's hand? Are you going to call the police and have them removed from the game master's house? Perhaps file suit against the player?
I'm afraid I have to side with the Reaver on this one. The attitude you're expressing strikes me as much more harmful to the group dynamics than the attitude of "I'm playing a greedy bastard and the greedy bastard needs money."
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Your sense of entitlement to the benefits of other peoples' feats and personal character investment is astounding. Why do you get to be offended by not getting a 50% discount off of someone else's investment? How is not acceding to your demands of free labor stealing from you? Does he become your indentured servant the moment he chooses a crafting feat?
How much money can you make in the time while the crafter is stuck crafting?
I honestly didn't even wanna read this thread after reading the OP.
Ultimate Campaign says in the section about adjusting WBL based on the PCs having crafting feats that the extra wealth is supposed to come out of the crafter's pocket anyway, which means you should still be paying full price as is.
If I was DM, I'd fully support the crafting character for wanting to make profit off wasting his time for everyone else on the team.
Lemme guess... he's a wizard who is also expected to cast Haste every fight and have spells prepared to handle OOC situations because no one wanted to play a rogue?
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currently, in my game, the crafter is charging 60% for the magic items that he crafts for us.
Personally I find it a bit greedy on the crafter's part
The crafter counters my argument by saying "I'm Chaotic Neutral, I can charge you whatever I want"
Is it right, as a member of the party, to charge other people? For it is ultimately benefiting the party as a whole.
It's neither right or wrong, it's just a thing. It's a choice of the crafter, and it's a fair choice.
I do this in the game I'm in on fridays. I play a "witch" (psion w/ psicrystal) that her and her psicrystal have been taking crafting feats (getting item creation feats on my psicrystal isn't normal, and was some finagling with the Extra Traits feat). Currently, we're playing Reign of Winter and my character and her psicrystal are responsible for most of the party's crafting and upgrading needs.
I charge 75% of the item's market value. So a +1 cloak of resistance is 750 gp. I pocket 250 gp, and they get a sweet deal (25% off their items, and their items are made to order).
The 25%, I have been putting aside in a special party-fund that I've been managing. From this fund, I craft things like consumables, such as elixirs of hiding or magic ammunition, or use it as a sort of rainy-day fund. Currently, we are 7th level, and I have 1,940 gp in this rainy day fund.
I've kept everyone pretty well geared thus far with no complaints (quite the opposite really, especially when I forked over some enemy bane [non-spoiler for those of you who haven't played Reign of Winter :P] arrows for some of the party members. Nobody else wanted to take the item creation feats, and this makes it easy to have a sort of nest-egg jar.
This thread is particularly relevant since I recently started playing an Eberron artificer.
The entire point of the class is to craft magic items. This is no mere feat investment. It's the core of a class.