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wow thanks all you guys, especially the past three. I figured i mean the meat pies, sausages, and butchery he did would be descent enough, just never gone past 2 with no intention of going into the "cook" profession skill (honestly part of the humor is that he can make the raw materials but he cant cook it worth a damn). great to know now i can do all that just using one skill "prof: butchery".

Just i love taking professions of some sort for all my chars, in this case raising pigs and slaughtering them for meat before becoming an adventuring fighter. Really appreciate your guys input and why i love these forums, everyone so friendly and willing to give their 2 cents :)

Cool, guess i was reading into the difference between Profession and craft too much. I just always assumed like how you need a miner to break down an ore vein into a chunk of iron, but than need a blacksmith to turn that iron into a bunch of nails or what not.

Thanks a lot fellas i appreciate it

Quick question, I am writing up a character for PFS who was a butcher and sausagemaker before picking up adventuring. It is based on a 3.5 char i played who put points into both "Profession: Butcher" and "Craft: Sausagemaking", my friend is saying they would both fall under the profession, but with the one actually making something im not sure and just figured for a laugh i would see what the people on here say.

I personally could see it going both ways.

The greatclub is pretty bad, 1d10 X2 MARTIAL weapon, i still love it though. one of my favorites actually.

I have no problem with either but prefer normal Point buy (15 or 25 in 3.5, i am not a fan of the higher point buys personally), just like being able to design the character i want completely while leaving nothing in that part to chance.

Though i have no problem rolling either, i just would like to know ahead of time so i dont have a preconceived notion of the character i want to play and go by the stats i roll, that can be a really fun as well!

Gwen Smith wrote:


I think the arbalest (giant-ass crossbow) was the weapon of choice for boats in the Greco-Roman era, but I'm not sure how you would ride one...

I would see it like Slim Pickens from Dr. Strangelove, only horizontal as opposed to vertical.

Either the trebuchet or arbalest are awesome ideas!

Wow, this is an interesting question i honestly never seen brought up before. I can see it being ruled either way so i say we faq it

I do not think a double standard is ok, no. If something like that is somehow ok for a woman to do but not a man then i view that as a problem, which i view it inappropriate for either gender to do without consent regardless of your feelings about it, Just if a man did it to a woman a mob would be calling for his head im sure.

I have dealt with plenty of women who can browbeat and talk over someone just as well as any man can, its a personality flaw not tied to gender in my experience.

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having never played RPG's in an "Official" setting but looking into it, I can say from my own experiences there really is no easy answer to questions like these, but how wide spread are the complaints? someone somewhere will always get offended somehow. Personally i treat everyone as an equal and i treat everyone with the same respect given to me regardless of gender, race, orientation whatever, but even that can land you in hot water in this day and age. It all depends on who you are dealing with.

Some EXPECT special treatment, and that is simply something i am not willing to do.

EDIT: what i am trying to say is, if men are chasing off women due to being rude, or intimidating them, or just plain being creepy that is a problem, and needs to be dealt with those specific cases, and i view it no different if a woman is being rude, intimidating, or creepy to a male player.

I just view it as there should not be any special rules going on to make women more comfortable at the tables, I view it as how we make EVERYONE more comfortable at the tables.

One thing i always found funny is, you say there is no place for gunslingers and firearms in your campaign, nobody panics. You say there is no room for catfolk in your campaign everybody looses their minds and you get called out for stymieing player creativity, and a good DM would make room! Just a humorous observation i have made.

Personally i say the more the merrier! whatever makes the player happy, within reason of course.

Would you go to this bakery if you knew the pastries were ensorcelled to make you want more, and make you want to reveal your secrets which the owner would then either blackmail or sell to an information broker?

I don't think anyone would willingly use this establishment if this was common knowledge.

Rynjin wrote:

The above does not apply to the completely awesome DCAU Aquaman.


does that mean they can only take a 5 foot step?

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Pretty much what Bruunwald and ross Byers said, I think it is a FANTASTIC and brilliant concept! but the pally is right, definitely evil.

For the record i also think using charm person to be all "hey buddy tell me all your secrets :-D" *runs to sell secrets to an information broker*" would be evil as well.

Honestly the only times it bugs me is when the player consistently does it as some reverse synthesist summoner where only the character's physical stats matter as he just uses the players mental stats anyway.

But i do not see that as a stat dumping problem, more of a metagame problem, same as that player who automatically pulls out a torch whenever a troll comes up regardless of whether that character even ever heard of what a troll is before.

i agree, i don't see why anyone would have a problem with such a simple aesthetic change. But if you wanted to put some form of mechanic to it, i could see using prestidigitation after casting light to change the hue.

I love nate lange's post, There is nothing wrong with power gaming at all if that's what you find fun. But if you want something different their is nothing wrong with taking a concept and optimizing it to be the best it can be, whether it be a generally supbar concept or not.

EDIT: granted it does matter on the general optimization level of the rest of your group, but from what you say it seems they happen to be less optimization focused than you, so should work out well i would think?

Honestly? i love falchions, they look so cool. But i would have to go with a battleaxe for the stats. They are practically weaponized cleaver's, just seems closer to an axe than sword to me.

Yeah i have to agree with everyone saying if this guy is as immature as he seems, i would advocate just ceasing to play at work instead of excluding him from the work games, There is no end to the amount of drama that he could cause if you actually just said he wasn't allowed to play there anymore.

Maybe pick up something else to entertain yourselves with your downtime, and leave the Roleplaying among the rest of your group out of work? a board game or something? maybe have a friend bring in an Xbox if that's allowed?

Mystically Inclined wrote:

Since you've gone with Thug, just be creative. Try to use it as a substitute for knowledge local or diplomacy when gathering information about underworld activities. Maybe ask for a +2 synergy bonus to intimidate. Whenever a 'Thug like' situation comes up, see if you can role profession Thug as a substitute.

yeah this is good stuff, good to know building a character around a profession wouldn't be as much of a "waste", i like this.

Zigniber wrote:
Profession: Thug isn't something you see, well... ever. But I could see it being used for a bouncer as a seedy tavern, or for anyone who wants to know how to effectively run a protection racket. It might even come in handy for torturing information out of someone, in a crude fashion. After all, what kind of thug doesn't know how to break someone's kneecaps?

great idea's here as well, brings up the thought maybe not all uses would be illegal, maybe bodyguarding a merchant in a rough section of town etc.

Quirel wrote:
Another use for the profession might be sizing an opponent up. It could provide a bonus to perception or opposing bluff checks to figure out how tough a guy is. After all, thugs don't last long without learning to tell easy prey from predators.

I REALLY like this one and would use it, that's something i would love to do but among the options i hope DM would not disallow.

MagusJanus wrote:

Have them actually working their profession and people showing up to purchase things, but mentioning problems they can help with. Maybe the PCs overhear it, maybe their boss hears it and suggests they talk to the customer.

Note that none of these problems have to be adventures; just things like the normal daily problems.

Yeah i like this, even if im only one on downtime doing this "hey i heard through the grapevine a group o scholars just went through crystal fall caverns on the hunt for some artifact, and are lookin for muscle" as a great way to add plothooks!

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Profession: underwater basket weaver?

Im not sure whether that would be a profession or a performance, must be quite the sight XD

CriticalQuit wrote:

You can make Profession checks in a manner similar to knowledge checks for knowledge about that specific profession.

So you could use the skill to come up with the best way to beat information out of some punk who won't talk. (hint: go for the kidneys)

Yeah, this is the sort of thing i was looking for! That's fantastic i never knew you could use a profession in that way, i love it. thanks a bunch!

Count Coltello wrote:
First profession: thug then craft: ceramic unicorns people who laugh at "craft roll" can try laughing at profession roll

This just cracked me up, thanks everyone so far for the replies so far.

P.S. Is it Legal to make your weapon into a masterwork tool? just seems it'd make sense wielding his greatclub would aid in his line of work.

wraithstrike wrote:

Every member of the party is essentially a high level special ops character. It is foolish to make any of them feel threatened much less all of them. Stepping to the side and allow enemy X to have easy access to the caster and claiming tactical error is always an option, assuming he does not "mysteriously" die in his sleep.

With that aside he is under no obligation to craft for anyone other than himself.
Another party member can craft magic items with a two feat investment. He is only doing these things because you as a group allow it.

It also seems like the GM is another problem, but I don't know what you can do about that. The ease of the encounters and handwaving certain rules is what I am referring to.

I was referring to the player not the character, hell i agree that charging to make just a little extra is still a screaming deal and they should just be happy for the massive discount.

But it seems the big problem is the player himself acting like a complete smack in and out of game, granted we are getting a one sided bias account but with the information given it seems like the player himself needs to be kicked out of the group until he can learn to play nice with others.

Hey guys, one of my characters i had take Profession: Thug both for flavor and to make a little coin during downtime as well. Well this leads to me trying to compile a list of fun flavorful things that this could cover just to add a little more spice to the game than "okay i'll just roll profession".

Being a bruiser half orc barb with a Greatclub i have more well thuggish type basic actions so far such as spending his time eyeing up marks, ambushing folks in alleys for coin, knowing where to stay out of the guards rounds, maybe roughing up someone for someone else ETC. (all off panel of course, im not trying to steal the limelight or anything just add some explanation on exactly HOW he spent the downtime earning his profession gold)

And was wondering if anyone else had any advice for fun things i could add to the list of uses for it? looking to get as many ideas as possible to pull from. Thanks in advance!

P.S are their any traits that add a profession of your choice to your list of class skills?

P.P.S say i wanted to reroll this character specifically to try PFS, would profession: thug be legal? since it is organized i dont know whether you can only pick the given examples or not.

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Eli Hammerlock wrote:

Oh nooooo, our GM is terrible at following rules so for crafting. Lets say that it takes 30 days to craft an item, our GM would just be like "30 days passed and he finishes crafting" allowing the crafter to be in combat and claim loot, exp, ect...

Well yeah i think it is well within his right to charge that ten percent mark up, to play devil's advocate...

If that is the problem you and the other members of your group have with him, have you tried saying "well we want to play those thirty days so while he is off crafting we want to go on an adventure, and possibly recruit a temporary while he is busy" Which while if he is playing his character and crafting it does not mean you have to stop yours being adventurers.

Was it the Einhander feat from PHB2? if i recall doesn't that give a +2 to ac while fighting defensively?

Espy Kismet wrote:

Bit of a shame really. Cause it would be nice to have a whole crafting thing done up. So I could set up quests and the like to go and find stuff like a silver thread of moonlight bathed in the tears of the weeping queen.. Or possibly build a cool mundane long sword with serrated edges and a poison dispensing handle

Yeah an "ultimate Craftsman" type of book with advice on how to accomplish stuff like that, among others would be fantastic. But i can understand the audience for such a book would most likely be sub par :-/

Apologies for the bump, but i figured i would add another one and cant seem to be able to edit my original post.

Zavix Halfblood, Half-Drow longspear fighter

Not sure if the skintone would be "legal" but hey green is my favorite color and i like how it turned out!

I was actually just checking to see if there was a thread like this before making one of my own as id love to see what other people use for their character's :-D Fantastic work on that portrait!

I do not have an artistic bone in my body but i do enjoy trying to put a picture to my concepts, Luckily the internet has heromachine for folks like me. Here is a character id really like to play if i can ever find a new group, A street thug inspired barbarian who uses a greatclub.

Crog, Half Orc Barbarian / fighter

hopefully that hyperlink works....

Some form of Middle Earth and Hyboria blend in an e6 type setting with rare and dangerous magic for good measure, along with plenty of bustling metropolis' filled to the brim with various races for the "Mos Eisely effect".

I much prefer low level games to high level, i'm happy as a clam to be going in and taking the fight to the group of orcs who have been harrying caravans travelling the king's highway etc, once it gets past about eighth level i start to lose interest.

The ideal campaign for me in this setting would be something episodic akin to shows like Hercules: the legendary journeys, or farscape, where while there is an overarching plot that advances, there would also be "monster of the week" sessions for a change of pace.

Matt Thomason wrote:

This pretty much sums me up too.

The majority of my characters are, however, built to do their job effectively. The thing is, their job tends to be working behind a bar, ploughing fields, or sitting at the town gate guarding against wild kittens ;)

Most of the time they're heroes because of the odds they go up against and beat, not because they've had any experience at fighting anything (okay, with an exception for Fighters as I usually use that class if it's a militia member or something.) I much prefer the story of someone that's risen from nothing than to walk in on day one as an experienced adventurer. That's just me, of course, and I'm not going to start saying that's the One True Way or anything.

Me as well, ill make the best out of the concept im playing sure. But that concept could be a fighter / barbarian who uses a greatclub, a rogue who fights einhander with a short sword, or any other concept you would never find on a "guide".

the only problem i have with the "hardcore" optimizers is those who stick to the same builds because they are mathematically "the best", and even then they aren't playing wrong just in a game that personally im not interested in playing.

If in a game that is accepted and encouraged cool go for it! Nor do i mind if in another game where you optimize a less then stellar concept say personally i like clubs so have optimized fighters around using a club / greatclub. The only time it is a problem is when you come with pun-pun when we all agreed to play a low op game. It's like back in the day when you made a gentleman's agreement not to use BFG in doom (or farsight in perfect dark if you are younger), there was always "that guy" who used it anyway :-/

Mythic +10 Artifact Toaster wrote:
Vinja89 wrote:
i got caught in a falling rock trap instantly killing the character -.-
wait...ROCKS ACTUALLY FELL AND SOMEONE DIED...I thought that was just a saying...

lol nope, believe me we all had to take a break due to laughing so hard. Too go out like that after such a good showing was absurd XD

I was playing my half orc barbarian one campaign while in a dungeon, it recently started so i think we were around level 2? maybe 1 it has been a while. Anywho, after scouring this dungeon we find ourselves in a labyrinth getting stalked, glimpses of a large beast out of the corner of our eyes etc. After building up the tension as we see the exit we get ambushed from behind by a minotaur!

The rest of the party runs while i charge the creature, getting a crit with my great axe while not killing it severely wounding it, and evading its counter attack while killing it with my second blow! stunning our DM and the rest of the party and i got myself a fancy masterwork greataxe for the feat :-D

Next major combat during the confusion i got caught in a falling rock trap instantly killing the character -.-

Full BAB, and d10 hd. Flurry counts as twf for prereqs, but it only usable with weapons which can be used in a flurry, say a monk can gain Two weapon defense, but can use it only when unarmed, wielding a temple sword, quarterstaff, etc.

Also at 6th level he can move 15 feet during his 5 foot step, 30 feet at level 12, and 45 feet at level 18.

Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Vinja89 wrote:
Oh and grab a level in Alchemist to grow a Vestigial arm to hold a shield!

It takes two levels of alchemist to grow a vestigial arm.

This hypothetical dwarf/half-elf should take two levels of alchemist.

It was merely Using hyperbole to show my point, but since it bothers you i shall change it.

I do think it is mostly people trying to be helpful, but yes i can see it being rather annoying when you come with a VERY specific concept "Hey I want to make a Dwarf rogue who uses a double bladed sword" and the responses are "You should make a make a Half-Elf Ranger with his floating +2 in Dex, and the Ancestral Arms Alternate Race Trait, Oh and dip two level's in Alchemist to grow a Vestigial arm to hold a shield!" (Exaggerating of course.)

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I like the alignment system, but what i do not like are alignment restrictions. I could very easily see the Lawful Good barbarian, whose "rage" is an extra surge of strength that he can summon from within himself when the chips are truly down like is so common in books, movies, etc. Or a True Neutral paladin of balance who fights for it as hard as any religious zealot. Or a Chaotic Evil monk who is out to simply gain ultimate power and riches so he can ultimately fulfill any desire he has.

dont get me wrong i am no expert, but has the shortbow ever shown any historical significance aside from its use in horse archery compared to the sling?

from everything i have read it seems medieval warfare has gone from sling to crossbow (with the English opting for the immense training given to the longbow. that makes it out to be an exotic weapon to me

I love Half orcs and play them 90% of the time.

I love playing fighters and rogues.

I think the orc double axe is an awesome weapon if designed differently (the image in 3.5 i agree is just ridiculous, but i tend to think of it more along the likes of Wei Yan or Zhang Fei new weapon from dynasty warriors)

I like True20 much more as a system >.>

I always liked the racial paragon classes, may not have been the strongest mechanically but they came with cool abilities.

Neat idea! i cant help much but i can say that i think the eidolon would fit captain marvel a lot more then supes, but i cant really figure out what supes would be either? only thing i can think of atm is fighter 7 / stalwart defender 5, but SD stationary rage is problematic...

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DrDeth wrote:

Making every option yield the same DPR = homogenity which is boring.

Not to put words in anyone's mouth but i dont think thats what folk are asking for, they simply would like a broader range of more effective options.

As an example i have played a half orc fighter who specialized in the great club and had a lot of fun! while lower DPR then the standard axe or great sword I still felt like i could contribute just fine and even had some unique options only i could do ( three mountains and brutal strike in 3.5, Bludgeoner which came in handy when we switched to PF)

While when i tried to do a sniping crossbow character i just felt irrelevant at high levels while i still had to spend more feats just to feel i could contribute a tiny bit, while i have never tried to make a sling specialist i assume they go through the same deal.

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I have always liked slings as the ranged option for my fighters, easy to conceal, alot easier to carry then a bow especially for someone who doesnt anticipate using ranged weaponry, Sling and a few bullets can all fit in a single pouch! decent ranged increment, decent damage type, just a good option for the melee specialist in my opinion.

If interested in slings this guy has a few videos on them that are pretty informative on there general effectiveness and use in the olden days.

TWF with a hook hand! hand


Kirth Gersen wrote:

Say your backstory says you're an orc slayer, so you take orcs as a favored enemy. The DM knows that 90% of the enemies in the upcoming campaign are hobgoblins, with no orcs in sight. He might (a) drop you a hint that you can swap "orc" for "goblinoid" without in any way invalidating your backstory. Or (b) he can potentially swap out all the hobgoblins for orcs, but that's a LOT more work for him, and he's already overworked. But in either case, part of the ongoing narrative is that you're thrust into the spotlight because of your backstory.

Or you and the DM can (c) just accept that your backstory as an orc-killer is nothing but a dead-end, and you might as well not bothered to have come up with it at all, because it's nothing but so much wasted ink -- indeed, you might as well be a "commoner-slayer," and there's really no reason at all for you to be a hero of this story.

So, yeah, maybe it's "metagaming" for the DM to tip you a nod, but as noted above, it's good metagaming.

I dont aprticularly see that as a bad thing thought, your playing a renowned orc slayer who signs on to a adventuring party who doesnt happen to be fighting orcs, that is the risk of playing such a specialized class. Which yes if there was no way to recover from it yeah it would be bad, but it has so much potential for you to evolve how you character learns how to fight these goblinoid foes culminating with him tkaing them as his fifth level favored enemy.

Until then its hardly like your useless with a fantastic skill list, 6 skill points a level, wild empathy, etc.

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MrSin wrote:

Ditto, but there's this weird thing where you need to balance your role play and mechanics to stay effective sometimes. Varies from game to game, so YMMV. I much prefer the approach where I never have to meta game, and I can focus on characters, but that's something I reserve for my own home games/house rules more than anything.(luckily, you can always just pick someone you don't like roleplay and another for your favored enemy, even if it isn't perfect it works for roleplay!)

So... where'd all the fighters go? Are they extinct?

i actually agree, why i always took humans as my favored enemy at level one if nothing else sprung out to me for the character, it would always be effective, and can always be rationalized as anyone who has grown up in arduous times most likely has come into conflict with humans at one point or another

What i never particularly liked is the ranger who takes favored enemy: undead, even though his backstory never has him coming intoo conflict with one before in his life, but even then i have never been one to tell anyone else how to play there character so the point is moot.

Favored Enemy is one thing i never quite got asking the DM for advice with, even when i played rangers. Way i always thought about it, the favored enemy should be worked into the characters backstory, not the backstory worked around what favored enemy is most useful?

just how i have alwaya viewed it.

yep, in fact one of the most memorable clerics i ever played with worshipped himself. his holy symbol was a painting of his face on his shield, and to get his spells he looked in a mirror every morning and talked about how awesome he was, hilarious.

EDIT: as has been said whether it is or isnt allwoed ultimately falls to the GM of course

so basically just use falchion, scimitar, or longbow? im sorry thats boring as hell.

Crossbows should be the king of single target nova damage, giving them a unique fighting style that plays to there strength's, at least when being the crossbowman fighter. Something as simple as dropping the whole readied attack deal and just let them be able to add dexterity mod X how many iterive attacks they would have at that level with whenever they make a single attack like using the vital strike action for example, would give them a niche of being more reliable but still doing less damage overall and less versatile then the bows.

EDIT: not to mention the whole speed advantage comes from shooting a large stationary hay target 10 feet away, when you have something moving 75, or even 25 feet away the speed advantage is not great due to the crossbow being MUCH easier to aim (which is the reason it is easier to train soldiers on), so i consider that anecdote false

maybe this was mentioned, idk. but you sound like you may like how True20 did its classes, i think its a fantastic system myself

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Kirth Gersen wrote:

Here's a good example of a reasonably level-appropriate effect that would work as we want:

Prerequisite: Fighter level 6th.
Benefit: As a standard action or attack of opportunity, make a single melee attack. Any opponent damaged by this attack must save vs. Fortitude (DC 13 + your Strength modifier) or be dazed one round. The duration is multiplied on a confirmed critical.

Note that it occupies one (1) bonus feat slot; it allows reasonably level-appropriate effects (Cf. hold person) and allows for limited battlefield control (thus usable as an AoO); and it isn't a spell, although it still comes with a similar built-in use limitation (you can use it more than once per day, but it eats into your action economy if you use it proactively, by preventing you from getting in a full attack, starting as soon as you get it).

I just want to say when i first read "fighter spells" i hated it, i play a fighter to be the mundane hero, but when you put it like this i love it brother! I would love to see some kind of system that does that, as long as there within the realm of possibility like that idea.

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