Crafter Charging Party Members


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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DrDeth wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

I haven't seen Shifty or DrDeth put forward any arguments as for why it's a bad thing for the crafters to not get screwed, or even justified how the rest of the party could be such jerks as to tell the crafter player what he is and is not allowed to do with his character and his character's resources.

But then, it also seems that they seem to think a wizard with item creation feats is somehow less effective at combat, which means I doubt I'm going to see anything as in depth and complex as an argument that will begin to explain how keeping treasure in the party and giving the option of purchasing items at significant discounts to your entire party is somehow bad.

Because Craft Feats make wizards weaker. You heard it here first folks!

The Crafting Player can do anything he wants with his character, within the DM's limits. But the other players have the same rights.

Crafter player "I am going to charge you 10% for no effort on my part"

Other players: "We don't like that, or your overall attitude, you're out of the group". Or, Cleric "That will be 10 gps per HP healed, please".

I never said a wizard with item creation feats is weaker. Of course he gives up a direct combat option, but more magic items should make up for that.

And, if the Crafter doesn't charge a extra 10% the party still keeps treasure in the party and has the option of purchasing items at significant discounts to the entire party.

EXCEPT THE CRAFTER IS NOT ONLY CRAFTING!!!

If the cleric is refusing to do ANYTHING without being paid then he has NO PLACE IN THE PARTY. The crafter (assuming a wizard) IS ALSO CARRYING THE PARTY through a good deal of encounters. So, in otherwords, he is carrying his weight, the figher's weight (I am assuming the figher does like/need his buff spells), AND is crafting. Compare that to the figher... who has 1 FREAKING JOB. And its a job that the Wizard COULD ALSO COVER.

The only reason why a fighter has a job is because the wizard gives it to him for convience. Especially if crafting time is ignored (oh! I guess we need a BSF. Just a second *BAM* golem!


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DrDeth wrote:
He's not devoting weeks. Here's what he's 'devoting" = "I craft XX, it takes this much time". DM: "Ok, done."
Quote:
The cost for doing so is uttering one sentence. No time passes. No slaving. No efforts. No "real cost".

Does. Not. Compute. You are meta-gaming something fierce. It doesn't matter at all that the time required is handwaved. The fact is that the time is required. Logically by the narrative work is being done, time is being spent, the character is making an effort even if it is all done "off screen".

And you clearly misunderstood my point in the previous post, but I won't go into it further since it was an observation on the silliness of some people getting bent out of shape and calling people bad roleplayers for having dumpstats, and then people calling crafters bad roleplayers because they're doing what their character would rightfully, using the justification of "it doesn't cost you anything", which is usually the argument that dumpstatters are bad RPers for the same reason (except the dumpstatters actually do costs).


Ashiel wrote:
Does. Not. Compute. You are meta-gaming something fierce.

...but why is that a problem, especially in the light of the rest of the meta-gaming and handwaving of everything else?

If we are just handwaving everyone elses 'downtime', why are we singling out the crafter and treating theirs as any different?


Shifty wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Does. Not. Compute. You are meta-gaming something fierce.

...but why is that a problem, especially in the light of the rest of the meta-gaming and handwaving of everything else?

If we are just handwaving everyone elses 'downtime', why are we singling out the crafter and treating theirs as any different?

I think you really need to make a difference between what players are doing and what characters are doing.

In the character point of view, the fact that downtime is handwaved doesn't change anything at all.

And adventurers won't stand still for 3 months in a place waiting for each having their item (4 people, each with a 24k item they want). An adventure that last less than a week could give them enough money to buy that item directly. Moreover, when they're not adventuring together, the group usually separate, doing stuff on their own.

In a standard campaign (an AP for example), the wizard would have to choose between crafting something for himself OR for another. If crafting for another would be more beneficial to the crafter than crafting for himself, good enough. If not, it's obvious he's going to prioritize his own items, unless he get the motivation to do otherwise.

Liberty's Edge

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DrDeth wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Apparently only the guys making magic items should slave for the party good.

Go back and read the Op's posts. The DM handwaves all that. Downtime is just handwaved. There is no "slaving away".

Now sure, if you're using other books, and one PC is crafting magic items, while the others are off getting more HP or something in their downtime, sure, the crafter is giving something up. Not in this case.

So working to gather the magical capital isn't slaving away even for the other guys, right?

It very curious how people is willing to toss away the crafter downtime as non important but is against spending their downtime for the same purpose.
Either the downtime is unimportant for everyone or it is important for everyone, but instead you guys consistently use double standards.
"My downtime is untouchable, the crafter downtime is a party resource."
And the say the crafter is greedy.
Go look into a mirror.

Once again, you're not reading the OPs posts (nor the post you're responding to). The downtime here, in his games- is handwaved.

No one is giving up ANYTHING AT ALL by using their downtime. They are giving up less than a spellcaster doing a cantrip. The downtime is totally unimportant for everyone. It has no meaning at all. None, zero, zip, nada, zilch, negatory, etc.

In other games, the sitrep is different.

Please read posts before responding angrily.

Deth, you playing again the 2 meters and 2 measures game.

If it cost "nothing" for the crafter character to spend his downtime crafting, it cost the same "nothing" for the other party members to work to pay it back or to get more money.
So why one side must pay that "nothing" and the other don't? maybe because it is not really "nothing"?

Apparently your logic is that if the GM is hand waving the downtime, that time isn't worth anything for a crafter, but it is worth something for a non crafter, as the non crafter will not do anything during that hand waived time for the party good or for the crafter in exchange for what he get.

It is evident that you don't get the argument, the question is why you don't get it.
Probably you see the character as some stat on a piece of paper, without a life outside fighting in a dungeon, for me he is a living creature, with his goals and his priorities.
If someone where asking him to work 8 hours every day for him when at home while the other members of the party are goofing along or having a good time it is only logic for him to ask for compensation.

Liberty's Edge

DrDeth wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


And your reply show that that you haven't looked the rules in question or what I said.

To repeat it again how they work....

Which has absolutely NO Bearing at all in the OP's campaign, where the DM has a different set of houserules. You are making a argument based upon the RAW, which is fine and valid. Your argument has no merit at all in the OP's campaign under the Ops DM who does not play by those rules, but has houserules. Quoting the RAW is meaningless as the DM here does not play by the RAW.

So, to change what you said
" my reply shows that that I haven't read the Ops posts as to how his DM has changed the the rules in question or what other have said over and over"

"To repeat it again how they work... in other campaigns, but not this one."

I happily conceded several times that if the Op's DM is playing by the RAW, using the Downtime rules, and thus the crafting spellcaster is giving something up- then of course he needs to get something for his efforts. But in the Op's campaign- he's not giving up anything and there's no efforts.

Shifty wasn't speaking of the OP campaign, he was making general statements, I replied to his general statements. You barged in, but the discussion is still about Shifty and co general comments that any crafter asking for compensation is a greedy bastard.

What happen in the OP campaign is only incidental to that comment.

Saying "but in the OP campaign ..." don't matter when people say "in my campaign I will let the monster kill a crafter that will ask for compensation or ban the player from the table, and that is what should be done in any campaign."

Liberty's Edge

Shifty wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


To repeat it again how they work:

And once again, you are incorrect.

The rules do not do what you are suggesting they do.

They do exactly what I say.

If you read them differently, show me how they work for you.


DrDeth wrote:

Characters with healing spells are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.

Buri wrote:
The black raven wrote:
By the very same reasoning, the healer can rightfully withhold his cures and the fighter refuse to draw his weapon as long as they do not get what they consider to be their proper due.
Absolutely. Then, they die for being dumb. The party doesn't die because the crafter doesn't craft.


Avh wrote:
And adventurers won't stand still for 3 months in a place waiting for each having their item (4 people, each with a 24k item they want). An adventure that last less than a week could give them enough money to buy that item directly. Moreover, when they're not adventuring together, the group usually separate, doing stuff on their own.

Which is where the debate all goes to pieces.

Either the crafter isn't mising out and there is no downtime (magic handwave)

Or

Time is played out, and in the month the crafter is busy the rest of the party went off and did their thing and came back two levels higher and with bags of loot.

If you are running with the former, then 'there is no downtime' and in this case the argument about the crafter losing it is invalid.

If you are running with the latter then the crafter sure is missing out and should feel welcome to charge for his time.

The problem occurs when you say 'time and effort' on one persons behalf, meanwhile the party is locked into not being able to equally do their thing over that same time period - one is compensated, whilst the others are apparently in prison or something.

If its a handwave, 50%.
If it isn't a handwave, feel free to ask extra - they'll be able to afford it with the extra loot they made while you were busy.

In the meantime, can we get a proper 'fence' mechanic please?


Diego Rossi wrote:


They do exactly what I say.
If you read them differently, show me how they work for you.

One is a mechanic for investment.

One is a mechanic for selling goods at a variable other than a flat 50%.

Neither position you for being able to craft or obtain magical items at a discount from the listed price.


Shifty wrote:


One is a mechanic for investment.

One is a mechanic for selling goods at a variable other than a flat 50%.

Neither position you for being able to craft or obtain magical items at a discount from the listed price.

You really don't see any relationship between a mechanic for obtaining 150 gp in gold pieces and another for obtaining 150 gp in magical items?

You really don't see any relationship between receiving 150 gp and receiving 300 gp worth of goods at a 50% discount? Or, for that matter, 600 gp worth of goods at a 25% discount?


Shifty wrote:
Avh wrote:
And adventurers won't stand still for 3 months in a place waiting for each having their item (4 people, each with a 24k item they want). An adventure that last less than a week could give them enough money to buy that item directly. Moreover, when they're not adventuring together, the group usually separate, doing stuff on their own.

Which is where the debate all goes to pieces.

Either the crafter isn't mising out and there is no downtime (magic handwave)

Or

Time is played out, and in the month the crafter is busy the rest of the party went off and did their thing and came back two levels higher and with bags of loot.

If you are running with the former, then 'there is no downtime' and in this case the argument about the crafter losing it is invalid.

If you are running with the latter then the crafter sure is missing out and should feel welcome to charge for his time.

The problem occurs when you say 'time and effort' on one persons behalf, meanwhile the party is locked into not being able to equally do their thing over that same time period - one is compensated, whilst the others are apparently in prison or something.

If its a handwave, 50%.
If it isn't a handwave, feel free to ask extra - they'll be able to afford it with the extra loot they made while you were busy.

In the meantime, can we get a proper 'fence' mechanic please?

The thing is : the wizard won't stay in the city crafting while the group is adventuring. He will go with the group, dealing his job. That's why having limited downtime is a pain in the ass for crafting : you can't do it for everyone without taking months to do so (or 4 times longer when out of downtime).

And as I wrote earlier : handwaved downtime for players is different from handwaved downtime for characters.

Liberty's Edge

Shifty wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


They do exactly what I say.
If you read them differently, show me how they work for you.

One is a mechanic for investment.

One is a mechanic for selling goods at a variable other than a flat 50%.

Neither position you for being able to craft or obtain magical items at a discount from the listed price.

[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/downtime.html#_gaining-capital]Earning capital rules in the Ultimate Campaign book[/ul]. Read them.

Then Downtime rules:

PRD wrote:

Craft Magic Items

The Core Rulebook details how to craft magic items. As magic item crafting and the downtime rules both use days as time increments for all but the cheapest potions and scrolls, you can spend days in the downtime system to craft magic items, with each downtime day counting as 8 hours of crafting time. You may spend Magic toward the crafting cost.

and

PRD wrote:


Purchases: If you would rather spend gold than attempt checks to earn other types of capital, use the values listed in the Purchased Cost column of the Capital Values table. Although you can't sell capital, you can use it for its listed Purchased Cost as payment toward any applicable downtime activity that requires you to spend gp. For example, if you are brewing a potion, you can spend 1 point of Magic toward the cost of the materials needed to make the potion as if that point were equal to 100 gp.

Again: a character can spend time and money to earn magical capital. The money spent to earn 1 unit of magical capital is 50 gp, but 1 point of magical capital is worth his purchase price, i.e. 100 gp, when used to make magic items.

And mundane goods earned through craft skills are cost 10 gp and are worth 20 gp of materials when used to make something.

Dark Archive

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I'm just absolutely failing to see any logic in someone getting upset because they are receiving a 40% discount on the best items in the game. More than that, a lot of those items are crap most merchants probably shouldn't even HAVE! Let alone be able to dispense them like a coke machine. On top of that, your total net worth on that character is going to be increasing by a far more significant amount than that of the person doing the crafting. Items crafted for themselves will yield this same benefit, but y'know what? Scribing spells in a spellbook is effing expensive. I'd imagine pretty much 100% of their proceeds from working for the party go directly into improving their spell casting abilities -- if not better equipment in general. There is nothing greed or unfair taking place aside from the OP, their party or anyone else trying to crack down on a crafter that happens to want to make some modicum of money. There is no disruption of group dynamics; it is NOT in any way being a jerk, and it's definitely not the sort of thing that should cause friction amongst party members. Why? Because those characters know they're getting a major discount on items they probably desperately need. If the players or their characters have a problem with it then I personally feel the wizard should tell them to bugger off. It's his time being burned, not theirs; he could easily make more money doing something else.


I post some variant on this whenever I notice a similar topic come up. I haven't read the full 350+ posts though.

With some groups, any resource one character has is expected to be used in full for the benefit of the party. This is definitely metagaming, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

In the games I've played it, we usually take the opposite approach, particularly since magic item creation does take real time where the crafter is effectively out of action. A character who takes a magic item creation feat is not obligated to use it for the benefit of any other character. ie. The fighter might want that +5 longsword for 25000gp instead of 50000gp, but I'm the one that has to spend the next 50 days creating it. Their discounted price isn't worth my time, etc.

That said, groups vary, and the meta-gaming argument is not an invalid one. Sometimes it is okay to bend or ignore in-game concerns, depending on the make up of the player group.

I think, (and this applies in any situation where trade or barter might occur between characters), that it is important to set some ground rules. I'll use one of my own past characters as an example.

Xebbidiah was an item-creation focused cleric of a merchant god. I was last to join the group, and his in-game situation reflected this. He had been hired by the rest of the party under the following conditions of employment.

1. Base pay was 1/6th of adventuring spoils
2. Included with base pay was combat participation, healing and other normal daily spell use (expensive focus components subject to negotiation) using any spell-completion or spell-trigger items owned by other characters or the party on their behalf, skill use, and other general adventuring/mercenary duties.
3. Commissioned item creation and/or purchase from his existing stock of items at 60% of book value.

Overall, the party was pretty satisfied by this, and I made sure there were few negative surprises. Xebbidiah was happy to extend credit if a party member didn't have cash or barter, or forgive debts if someone did him a favour. He made sure to encourage other party members in business ventures as well.

The party knew what to expect from him, so there weren't any surprises.


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DrDeth wrote:
Maizing wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Characters with crafting feats are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.

Exactly! Being able to craft stuff does not make the character the party's slave.

Characters with healing spells are not obligated in any way to provide services to the group.

/sarcasm

Oh... I get it now. The crafting character does not need to actually participate in the combats to get a share of loot. They earn their share just by virtue of crafting items for the others. That is actually a very sweet deal. "No, no, you guys go ahead and fight without me, I already earned my share by making you all those nifty toys at cost!"
/end sarcasm

You may not realize it, but that is the logical conclusion to the line of reasoning that you are following.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

You really don't see any relationship between a mechanic for obtaining 150 gp in gold pieces and another for obtaining 150 gp in magical items?

It generates an income, with which you can buy what you want. That income, however, requires you to invest your funds for a period of time, and you may or may not get them back.

So far this has not been disputed.

Orfamay Quest wrote:


You really don't see any relationship between receiving 150 gp and receiving 300 gp worth of goods at a 50% discount? Or, for that matter, 600 gp worth of goods at a 25% discount?

This, however, is not what the mechanic does.

The income you derive in no way is tradeable for discounted magic items.

The mechanics you suggest not only do not do what you say they do, they are also optional mechanics and in no way provide a solution to the problem.

You also seem to miss that the returns are annual, once per game year.
I hardly see a mechanic that allows you to invest a pile of money and get a 5-10% return once per game year as being anything even vaguely comparable to a system that allows a guaranteed return of 100% every game year, that can be done daily through to annually.

Please point to where the Bargaining mechanics suggest that you can bargain down an NPC vendor on the price of his goods. They are specifically written for players to SELL to NPC vendors, and the reverse is not true.

Now with the Capital system, you have to place money into the pot and take your chances with the risks associated. You might be able to get a return on investment that may lead to the chance of being able to obtain a magic item, but this is not in any way assured, is very time consuming, and does not enjoy the 100% ROI and risk free status associated with item crafting.

None of these outcomes resemble the 'fencing' option that you guys said they did either, which is the chance to get an item at half price - a 50% discount (or like it).

Its like saying a battered old Honda is exactly like a brand new Lamborghini and then trying to feign mock outrage at us 'just not seeing it'.

They aren't even comparable past a very superficial glance.

It's like saying mundane crafting and magical crafting are on the same page.


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I think it comes down to two separate issues:

1) the unspoken code of treating group members like family, and not making a 'profit' off of them, which only seems smart since one day the fighter may be deciding who to charge, the troll beating on the cleric or the ogre stomping on the wizard. For those of you claiming a 10% surcharge is fine, I'm assuming you are also fine with paying your cleric for restorations and remove curses *after* the adventure is over? With a decent 'friends and family' discount of course? After all, he could be out memorizing different spells in those slots, or casting spells for profit at the local temple. Which leads me to...

2) the game has introduced a way of monetizing a nebulous, often hand-waved concept of 'downtime' for magical crafters, while all other characters get nothing, except for the pathetic 'profession check in gp per week' (so 700gp/week vs 20-30gp/week). I don't run the stock crafting rules in my campaign (for this and other reasons - I hate them), but if I did, I'd feel compelled to add ways for all the other characters to 'monetize their downtime'. You can handwave it, but saying that the rogue is forging documents and made 550gp this week, or the fighter has taken on a task acting as a bodyguard for the mayor during an important diplomatic event, for which he gets 1000gp, the cleric made 200gp casting spells for locals, but received a request to come to Magnimar for a stretch where he could likely earn much more etc. The problem is professions don't scale at all with character level, whereas crafting has this goofy artificial limit (given enough 'downtime') of 25% of WBL, which does scale. Your 15th level wizard just made a Staff of Obvious Compensation earning 50k during these last 4 months, while Joe's 15th level fighter made 400 horseshoes for 80gp total, in stiff competition with the L2 exp down the street.

NB: I haven't read UC so if that introduces other methods of making scalable money during downtimes I regard that as an improvement.


There are merchants who will bring their prices down at certain amounts spent with them in the Magical Marketplace book. I think this, at the very least, softly encourages GMs to duplicate this effect if PCs wish to ally themselves with a particular merchant or two instead of just "I buy item x" and paying the gp amount.


Ackbladder wrote:

I think it comes down to two separate issues:

1) the unspoken code of treating group members like family, and not making a 'profit' off of them, which only seems smart since one day the fighter may be deciding who to charge, the troll beating on the cleric or the ogre stomping on the wizard. For those of you claiming a 10% surcharge is fine, I'm assuming you are also fine with paying your cleric for restorations and remove curses *after* the adventure is over? With a decent 'friends and family' discount of course? After all, he could be out memorizing different spells in those slots, or casting spells for profit at the local temple. Which leads me to...

Most spells don't have expensive components. However, I do think it's reasonable for characters to haggle over reimbursements for things like resurrections and the like. Those things aren't cheap to any degree. Similarly, if you want the wizard to 5x wish you to a +5 inherent bonus on an ability you should be chipping in to AT LEAST some degree. I'm not suggesting a 5k "thanks bud" tip. I'm suggesting covering at least a few of the castings, if not all.

But, for the third time, it DOES NOT cost to swing a sword. It DOES NOT cost to cast a cure wounds or channel. IT INHERENTLY COSTS to craft items. To say you want to charge to disarm a trap because I charge to make items is NOT comparing the same things.

Ackbladder wrote:
2) the game has introduced a way of monetizing a nebulous, often hand-waved concept of 'downtime' for magical crafters, while all other characters get nothing, except for the pathetic 'profession check in gp per week' (so 700gp/week vs 20-30gp/week). I don't run the stock crafting rules in my campaign (for this and other reasons - I hate them), but if I did, I'd feel compelled to add ways for all the other characters to 'monetize their downtime'. You can handwave it, but saying that the rogue is forging documents and made 550gp this week, or the fighter has taken on a task acting as a bodyguard for the mayor during an important diplomatic event, for which he gets 1000gp, the cleric made 200gp casting spells for locals, but received a request to come to Magnimar for a stretch where he could likely earn much more etc. The problem is professions don't scale at all with character level, whereas crafting has this goofy artificial limit (given enough 'downtime') of 25% of WBL, which does scale. Your 15th level wizard just made a Staff of Obvious Compensation earning 50k during these last 4 months, while Joe's 15th level fighter made 400 horseshoes for 80gp total, in stiff competition with the L2 exp down the street.

Not all method of making money are equal nor should they be. The economy in Pathfinder is screwy enough and already takes a measure of "it's a game" mentality to accept how things work even though it does work remarkably well for what it is. If you want to make the amount of money a Wall Street trader does (PF equivalent of crafting), then don't flip burgers ("guard" duty aka being a mercenary, the penny trade of the PF universe).


Buri wrote:
it DOES NOT cost to swing a sword. It DOES NOT cost to cast a cure wounds or channel...To say you want to charge to disarm a trap because I charge to make items is NOT comparing the same things.

Sure it does.

You have to BUY a sword, you have to BUY your lockpicks.

Both items will depreciate by 50% in value the very minute you walk out the shop with them.

The caster, on the other hand, makes an instant profit.


Shifty wrote:
Buri wrote:
it DOES NOT cost to swing a sword. It DOES NOT cost to cast a cure wounds or channel...To say you want to charge to disarm a trap because I charge to make items is NOT comparing the same things.

Sure it does.

You have to BUY a sword, you have to BUY your lockpicks.

Both items will depreciate by 50% in value the very minute you walk out the shop with them.

The caster, on the other hand, makes an instant profit.

Very Well, I guess we can kick out the fighter. Why? The Crafter (assuming wizard) can simply summon monsters and walk around with a golem.

So riddle me this Shifty. Is teh crafter ONLY crafting or is he also the party buffer, the Party problem solver, AND the battlefield controller? All in all, it seems the mage is easily doing 4-5x MORE than the fighter...

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

If crafting time is valuable because it's sweat and toil (assuming there's nothing else going on that you're missing out on), then perhaps the pain the frontliners endure from wounds is worth something extra too?
Those that expose themselves to greater risk deserve larger shares than those that stand in the back then.


K177Y C47 wrote:


Very Well, I guess we can kick out the fighter. Why? The Crafter (assuming wizard) can simply summon monsters and walk around with a golem.

Kick him out, he's wasting money*. Animated Objects are much better bang for buck vs the hyper expensive golems.

*If it's all about the $'s to you.

K177Y C47 wrote:
So riddle me this Shifty. Is teh crafter ONLY crafting or is he also the party buffer, the Party problem solver, AND the battlefield controller? All in all, it seems the mage is easily doing 4-5x MORE than the fighter...

Who knows. He might be doing some of that stuff, he might not.

How does that detract from the fighter needing to buy his sword and buy his armour and then take a 50% depreciation on them? Buri said it costs nothing, whereas it clearly does.


What provider of goods in ANY economy does not make a profit when it provides wares?

But, no, it. does. not. cost. to. swing. the. sword. Each swing of the sword is effectively free. Sure, you have to acquire it. You have to acquire everything. Or you go unarmed strikes. So even still there are options. You get an infinite number of swings with a sword. With crafting you get only 1 item from a collection of gold. One. Want another item? Get more gold. Want another swing of that sword? Just do it. Cost? Zero.

Though, I do like how you zeroed in on a very narrow take on my post rather than responding to the point. The point is true because it is fact. List the gp cost of a swing. List the cost of a channel, a casting of cure critical wounds, heal, and so on. Quote it, please. Now, quote the cost to make an item. You can choose any one. It doesn't even have to be magical. Alchemical and mundane items are fine, too.

If you want to craft and it not cost you're stuck with clubs, slings, and quarterstaves. You can fight with those all day long, too.


Shifty wrote:
Buri said it costs nothing, whereas it clearly does.

I never said you can acquire items for free. Jesus Christ. I said QUITE the opposite. Put words in your own mouth, thanks.


Buri wrote:


I never said you can acquire items for free. Jesus Christ. I said QUITE the opposite. Put words in your own mouth, thanks.

Oh right, so its 100% free AFTER you pay a bunch of cash to buy them.

Its like saying that eating a burger at McDonalds is 'free', which is true, after you pay for the burger.


Damn straight. Each and every item you craft costs gold. Each and every swing does not cost gold. This is fact. If you can't acknowledge this, then I have nothing more to say to you.


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Buri wrote:
Damn straight. Each and every item you craft costs gold. Each and every swing does not cost gold. This is fact. If you can't acknowledge this, then I have nothing more to say to you.

I purposely stayed away from the 'reduction ad absurdum' case of paying per sword swing, hp healed, fireball cast etc. Let's assume our happy party goes off adventuring, and drags themselves back to the inn battered and bruised. Your character has 8 points of con dmg, a nasty curse, 38 hp of dmg and (soon) a hangover.

A restoration spell will use 100gp in diamond dust, and according to http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/lodgingAndService s.html, the friendly local cleric of Abadar (or anyone else) will want (caster level)*(spell level)*10+100gp to cast it, or say, (10*4*10+100) for a 10th level cleric. So, that's 400gp for effort plus 100gp for mats, assuming you do it at his/her convenience.

If I was in said group, and our oracle had access to restoration, I'd expect him to cast it for the 100gp in mats only, when it was convenient (ie according to group triage and his personal plans). Would you also expect this, or would you be comfortable with the oracle charging 20%x400+100, or 180gp for his time, effort and mats?

I'm arguing that crafters who expect to pay only 100g in the above scenario (I have a gut feeling this includes most if not all Pathfinder players), but then demand materials cost + 10% profit for crafting an item are greedy hypocrits.

Of course someone should pay the materials cost of any items crafted, as well as pay for the cost of aquiring any spells needed that the crafter might not have. But some crafters seem to think a profit is also reasonable in this case. Why not a profit for the poor oracle then? The only difference is the amount of time taken. The crafter had to burn a feat? The oracle had to burn a spell slot learning restoration as well. Both are sunk costs freely chosen by the player.

Is it because the crafted item is eating into your weird, artificial 25% WBL cap? What happens when that cap is reached btw, you suddenly find yourself surrounded by pugwampis and unable to craft anything? I don't understand the WBL limits on crafting, to be honest. I guess NPC wizards have a very short, NFL-like career as magic item crafters.

Or is it the time taken? Of course I'd expect to wait until a crafter finished his own items, or even paying customers, ahead of mine, just as I'd expect to wait if the oracle had to cast all his 4th-level spells on more important (to him - 8 con is pretty important to me) causes.


Ackbladder wrote:

A restoration spell will use 100gp in diamond dust, and according to http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/lodgingAndService s.html, the friendly local cleric of Abadar (or anyone else) will want (caster level)*(spell level)*10+100gp to cast it, or say, (10*4*10+100) for a 10th level cleric. So, that's 400gp for effort plus 100gp for mats, assuming you do it at his/her convenience.

If I was in said group, and our oracle had access to restoration, I'd expect him to cast it for the 100gp in mats only, when it was convenient (ie according to group triage and his personal plans). Would you also expect this, or would you be comfortable with the oracle charging 20%x400+100, or 180gp for his time, effort and mats?

Already answered.

Buri wrote:
Most spells don't have expensive components. However, I do think it's reasonable for characters to haggle over reimbursements for things like resurrections and the like. Those things aren't cheap to any degree. Similarly, if you want the wizard to 5x wish you to a +5 inherent bonus on an ability you should be chipping in to AT LEAST some degree. I'm not suggesting a 5k "thanks bud" tip. I'm suggesting covering at least a few of the castings, if not all.

The folly is arguing group dynamics in specificity without regarding the particular dynamics of the group, which is almost impossible for any unaffiliated outsider. I'm not going to prescribe a formula to how it should work out. That's up to the group. I do not, however, think it's bad form to ask for a tip when it costs gold to do something. The basic role of all classes does not take gold to perform outside of gunslingers. You can even pick locks and disable traps without tools at a small penalty that can be negated with a simple aid another check. So, I do find it utterly absurd to charge for the basic functioning of a class when a person may want the services for free of something that does inherently cost money.

A cleric asking for 125gp for a 100gp restoration is perfectly acceptable to me. But, if you want me to pay for the service of the casting then the crafter should be charging for the services of a skilled tradesman at a per day rate. Given:

Quote:
Hireling, Trained: The amount given is the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings. This value represents a minimum wage; many such hirelings require significantly higher pay.

A wizard should qualify for the "significantly higher pay" clause. And, honestly, the more expensive the item being crafted, the more it should cost in service. As the rate of 3sp would be the rate for a non-masterwork mundane crafter, it should stand to reason that several gp per day, if not tens or hundreds, should be charged for ever increasingly expensive and specialized items. This is fair as the service cost for higher level spells and higher level spell casters are also more expensive. An 1st-level, level 1 caster casting an immediate action spell still costs 10gp at the service rate. Something that takes next to no time to do at all, a fraction of a single 6-second round, costs 10 gold. Not silver. How much more "should" the crafter get for devoting weeks, if not months, to a single project?


Ackbladder wrote:

I purposely stayed away from the 'reduction ad absurdum' case of paying per sword swing,

An expensive passtime I tells ya!


Ackbladder wrote:
Buri wrote:
Damn straight. Each and every item you craft costs gold. Each and every swing does not cost gold. This is fact. If you can't acknowledge this, then I have nothing more to say to you.

I purposely stayed away from the 'reduction ad absurdum' case of paying per sword swing, hp healed, fireball cast etc. Let's assume our happy party goes off adventuring, and drags themselves back to the inn battered and bruised. Your character has 8 points of con dmg, a nasty curse, 38 hp of dmg and (soon) a hangover.

A restoration spell will use 100gp in diamond dust, and according to http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/lodgingAndService s.html, the friendly local cleric of Abadar (or anyone else) will want (caster level)*(spell level)*10+100gp to cast it, or say, (10*4*10+100) for a 10th level cleric. So, that's 400gp for effort plus 100gp for mats, assuming you do it at his/her convenience.

If I was in said group, and our oracle had access to restoration, I'd expect him to cast it for the 100gp in mats only, when it was convenient (ie according to group triage and his personal plans). Would you also expect this, or would you be comfortable with the oracle charging 20%x400+100, or 180gp for his time, effort and mats?

I'm arguing that crafters who expect to pay only 100g in the above scenario (I have a gut feeling this includes most if not all Pathfinder players), but then demand materials cost + 10% profit for crafting an item are greedy hypocrits.

Of course someone should pay the materials cost of any items crafted, as well as pay for the cost of aquiring any spells needed that the crafter might not have. But some crafters seem to think a profit is also reasonable in this case. Why not a profit for the poor oracle then? The only difference is the amount of time taken. The crafter had to burn a feat? The oracle had to burn a spell slot learning restoration as well. Both are sunk costs freely chosen by the player.

Is it because the crafted item is eating into your...

Because the time investment for the oracle is 3 minutes spent buying diamond dust from the nearest reagent vendor and a spell slot. In comparison there's a feat multiple skills/spells to make it easier and 1 day per 1kgp of cost.

As for the 25% gp thing it's simple the feat only allows the creation of 25% bonus gold, when used just for the crafter that's just him taking his 25% of items used in that section(say wonderous items) and doubling his values by using creation feats. But when you craft for the whole party once you hit the 25% cap everyone in the party gets less loot so that when you take that chunk and double it via crafting for the entire party they just end up at WBL +6%. At which point the crafter just spent a feat for 6% WBL. Pretty much the equivalent of stealing 18% of his wealth from the crafter in my opinion that's some bull shit even ignoring all the other shitty things sharing the feat with the party for free does.


Remember, these 'days' are just 8 hours, its not like that's all the crafter is restricted to doing. He's just going to work each day like everyone else.


Ashiel wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
He's not devoting weeks. Here's what he's 'devoting" = "I craft XX, it takes this much time". DM: "Ok, done."
Quote:
The cost for doing so is uttering one sentence. No time passes. No slaving. No efforts. No "real cost".
Does. Not. Compute. You are meta-gaming something fierce. It doesn't matter at all that the time required is handwaved. The fact is that the time is required.

I am not metagaming, the DM is. It's his choice to make it a handwave. Or are you saying the DM can't do that?

There is no time, not in the Op's game.


Diego Rossi wrote:


If it cost "nothing" for the crafter character to spend his downtime crafting, it cost the same "nothing" for the other party members to work to pay it back or to get more money.
So why one side must pay that "nothing" and the other don't? maybe because it is not really "nothing"?

Apparently your logic is that if the GM is hand waving the downtime, that time isn't worth anything for a crafter, but it is worth something for a non crafter,...

No one should pay anything for the downtime in the Op's game, as it doesn't exist. You are correct, both sides should pay nothing.


Diego Rossi wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


And your reply show that that you haven't looked the rules in question or what I said.

To repeat it again how they work....

Which has absolutely NO Bearing at all in the OP's campaign, where the DM has a different set of houserules. You are making a argument based upon the RAW, which is fine and valid. Your argument has no merit at all in the OP's campaign under the Ops DM who does not play by those rules, but has houserules. Quoting the RAW is meaningless as the DM here does not play by the RAW.

So, to change what you said
" my reply shows that that I haven't read the Ops posts as to how his DM has changed the the rules in question or what other have said over and over"

"To repeat it again how they work... in other campaigns, but not this one."

I happily conceded several times that if the Op's DM is playing by the RAW, using the Downtime rules, and thus the crafting spellcaster is giving something up- then of course he needs to get something for his efforts. But in the Op's campaign- he's not giving up anything and there's no efforts.

Shifty wasn't speaking of the OP campaign, he was making general statements, I replied to his general statements. You barged in, but the discussion is still about Shifty and co general comments that any crafter asking for compensation is a greedy bastard.

What happen in the OP campaign is only incidental to that comment.

We're hear trying to give the Op advice of what should happen in his game, with his DM's rules.

You can't just come into someones thread and decide his question is "incidental" or that his DM has no right to made a houserule on crafting.

I appreciate your thoughts on how crafting should work in a game played by RAW. This isn't that game.


The Beard wrote:
I'm just absolutely failing to see any logic in someone getting upset because they are receiving a 40% discount on the best items in the game. M

Sure, so when the cleric gives a 40% discount on healing, not charging the full 60 gps for a Cure Moderate but only 36 gps, then that's fine? That's a 40% discount on some of the best spells in the game. Deal?

All of the party should work as a team. No one charges anyone for anything, beyond actual costs.


DrDeth wrote:
Sure, so when the cleric gives a 40% discount on healing, not charging the full 60 gps for a Cure Moderate but only 36 gps, then that's fine? That's a 40% discount on some of the best spells in the game. Deal?

That's not quite the same. If 30 gold of that was material component and it took him 8 hours of work to do it, thus preventing him from working a day job, meditating or something, then yeah, of course.

In fact, most characters I have would insist on paying him more than that.


Buri wrote:


But, for the third time, it DOES NOT cost to swing a sword. It DOES NOT cost to cast a cure wounds or channel. IT INHERENTLY COSTS to craft items. To say you want to charge to disarm a trap because I charge to make items is NOT comparing the same things.

.

Sure, when I disarm a trap, I risk my life.

For the wizard craft, he risks nothing. Nor does it cost him anything. Not in the Op's game. He spends the cost which is what the Op expects to pay him, so he spends nothing. He loses no time, no opportunity costs. He doesnt lose out on the chance of making more money by doing something else- in the OP's game.

All that is handwaved in the Ops game. Crafting items is simple. Pay the cost, the DM waves his hand, the magic item is there- it's like.... well...magic!

In the Op's games it's as if there was a machine that could make any item you wanted at half price instantly. You pour the price in, the item comes out.

For the fifth time (or is it the sixth? ) - the OP's game does not work by RAW. There is no cost.

I concede if there was some actual cost as there would be under RAW, then this discussion would be different.

The Op's DM have a houserule. That houserule makes your assumptions incorrect.


Poldaran wrote:
That's not quite the same. If 30 gold of that was material component and it took him 8 hours of work to do it, thus preventing him from working a day job, meditating or something, then yeah, of course.

But he can do all of those things.

"The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit."

He can even go adventuring if he likes.


Poldaran wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Sure, so when the cleric gives a 40% discount on healing, not charging the full 60 gps for a Cure Moderate but only 36 gps, then that's fine? That's a 40% discount on some of the best spells in the game. Deal?

That's not quite the same. If 30 gold of that was material component and it took him 8 hours of work to do it, thus preventing him from working a day job, meditating or something, then yeah, of course.

In fact, most characters I have would insist on paying him more than that.

In the Op's game, crafting takes less than a minute, not 8 hours. The crafter is not prevented from doing anything. It takes whatever time it takes for him to utter the sentence, a matter of seconds. It's more or less instantaneous- crafting taking about the same time it takes for a cleric to cast a cure spell.


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DrDeth wrote:
The Beard wrote:
I'm just absolutely failing to see any logic in someone getting upset because they are receiving a 40% discount on the best items in the game. M

Sure, so when the cleric gives a 40% discount on healing, not charging the full 60 gps for a Cure Moderate but only 36 gps, then that's fine? That's a 40% discount on some of the best spells in the game. Deal?

All of the party should work as a team. No one charges anyone for anything, beyond actual costs.

Do you realize that argument breaks down when the wizard starts casting spells? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


Do you realize that argument breaks down when the wizard starts casting spells? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

I'm pretty sure he does, and that he's taking us on a nice journey to see how fruitless 'user pays' end up being when viewed as a party.


Shifty wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


Do you realize that argument breaks down when the wizard starts casting spells? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?
I'm pretty sure he does, and that he's taking us on a nice journey to see how fruitless 'user pays' end up being when viewed as a party.

Exactamundo. The fighter charges for each foe killed and each HP taken. The rogue charges the same, plus more for every square searched for traps, and MUCH more if a trap must be disabled- and so forth. Everyone charges for everything. At the end, no one owes anyone anything as everyone has contributed. But the party only gets one small encounter done as the accounting take sup the rest of the time. "Fun... yes.. but of a mild sort." (Mark Twain).


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Shifty wrote:
Poldaran wrote:
That's not quite the same. If 30 gold of that was material component and it took him 8 hours of work to do it, thus preventing him from working a day job, meditating or something, then yeah, of course.

But he can do all of those things.

"The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit."

He can even go adventuring if he likes.

Fair enough, but as a person, would you want to spend 8 hours building something for your buddy for no pay after spending eight hours at work, giving you just enough time to sleep, assuming you neglect other day to day chores and things like eating, hygiene and the like unless you can find a way to cram them into your other tasks? Or would you rather use one set of those eight hours to unwind?

Assuming, of course, building stuff isn't how you unwind. I personally prefer a good book, video game or TV for my unwinding.

Of course, if your character is nothing more than scribbles on a page to you, then you are free to look at your daily 24 hours as nothing more than a game resource to be used to maximize your benefits on a page.

DrDeth wrote:
Poldaran wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Sure, so when the cleric gives a 40% discount on healing, not charging the full 60 gps for a Cure Moderate but only 36 gps, then that's fine? That's a 40% discount on some of the best spells in the game. Deal?

That's not quite the same. If 30 gold of that was material component and it took him 8 hours of work to do it, thus preventing him from working a day job, meditating or something, then yeah, of course.

In fact, most characters I have would insist on paying him more than that.

In the Op's game, crafting takes less than a minute, not 8 hours. The crafter is not prevented from doing anything. It takes whatever time it takes for him to utter the sentence, a matter of seconds. It's more or less instantaneous- crafting taking about the same time it takes for a cleric to cast a cure spell.

Crafting takes the player less than a minute. It takes the character eight hours. If I, as the player, am role-playing my character, then that's the decision I make, regardless of whether it takes me any time as a player.

If I'm roleplaying my character, there are a lot of choices I make that don't make any sense from a metagame perspective, but make a ton of sense from an in-character roleplay one. Not saying that doing things this way is always right, only suggesting that it is right when you're approaching the game with an in-character view of the situation. Some people view player to player fairness* as more important than remaining in-character and that can be fine.

*Player fairness can mean different things to different people and will invariably be different from table to table and player to player.


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just got here; @OP - dude, you're getting a 40% discount over 'magic mart'.

you don't complain where the shopkeep spends his apparent extra half of the money (he's making them at half-cost too you know), so why would you complain about someone who watches out for your sorry ass on the battlefield AND takes extra time out of his day to make you your shiny +X swords a good long time before you could afford them normally?

really? really? are you sure it's him that's the greedy one? frankly i'm astounded you're even complaining in the first place.


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DrDeth wrote:
Shifty wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:


Do you realize that argument breaks down when the wizard starts casting spells? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?
I'm pretty sure he does, and that he's taking us on a nice journey to see how fruitless 'user pays' end up being when viewed as a party.

Exactamundo. The fighter charges for each foe killed and each HP taken. The rogue charges the same, plus more for every square searched for traps, and MUCH more if a trap must be disabled- and so forth. Everyone charges for everything. At the end, no one owes anyone anything as everyone has contributed. But the party only gets one small encounter done as the accounting take sup the rest of the time. "Fun... yes.. but of a mild sort." (Mark Twain).

Right and then the wizard starts crafting.


Let me see if I've got this right.
One group of posters are saying that any character who takes a crafting feat MUST make items for the rest of the party at cost. And that if crafting time is limited then they are ALLOWED to prioritise their own items.

A second group is saying that theythe might do so but it would depend on the personality of the character they are playing. And making DEMANDS of them is not how friends should behave.

The reasoning presented by the first group consists mostly of 'if you charge your buddies then you're being greedy. You shouldn't make a profit from your friends/allies'.

The second group's arguments are that they have the right to charge if they want to, you don't have to buy from them.

To the first group I say: stop demanding if you're claiming to be friends of the crafter. If unlimited time is available then a 4 person party should be paying 5% or the crafter is losing out relative to the other 3. Paying more than that means the crafter is actually making a profit.

To the second group I say: in a co-operative game, crafters shouldn't be trying to make profits from their friends.


Gilarius, not quite, no. If the game is actually cooperative, then I have no problems with asking for at-cost crafting, especially if it's required for the mission. If the party doesn't get along all that well, and plenty do, believe you me, then it's up to the crafter.

As an example, compare crafting necessary items to helping a friend hide a corpse. If I had a friend I trusted enough to go on murderhobo sprees with, I'd have no problem helping him hide a body for free, especially if I helped make the body.

Crafting non-vital items is more like helping a buddy move. Sure, I'll do it, but the unspoken obligation is that he gives me free drinks and food as repayment.


Ipslore, I don't see any disagreement between my post and yours. Wow, we actually agree on the Internet!

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