Te'Shen - original succubus is a standard one (because she was summoned by meaning of Planar Binding), but she works under the supervision of older, more experienced succubus with levels in Master Spy prestige class.
Domhnual - I like your plan and maybe even use it, it has potential :D
Douglas Muir 406 - inspirational as always, but not necessary, because:
Profane Gift (Su) Once per day as a full-round action, a succubus may grant a profane gift to a willing humanoid creature by touching it for 1 full round. The target gains a +2 profane bonus to an ability score of his choice. A single creature may have no more than one profane gift from a succubus at a time. As long as the profane gift persists, the succubus can communicate telepathically with the target across any distance (and may use her suggestion spell-like ability through it). A profane gift is removed by dispel evil or dispel chaos. The succubus can remove it as well as a free action (causing 2d6 Charisma drain to the victim, no save).
and both magister Hidan and royal enforcer Judas were given the Profane Gift.
I was planning on using your previous plan: Her supervisor frees her, and they pretend to be an older female aristocrat and her young maid running away from civil war in Brevoy - the party met them barely a week ago.But with the recent murder of ruler Lady Katrina Varn-Green they simply must use it in some way in their plan to humiliate magister Hidan ]:-> It's better than arranging something from scratch.
There is a lot of stuff going on in my Kingmaker campaign, I cannot give them all here, I am trying to present my dillemas as simple as I can, but this above isn't the only intrigue that is happening right now, so please - do not present me overcomplicated solutions or I am going to lost myself in this all :P
Let this be a lesson. Next time after turning the succubus to stone break it into pieces and make sure to always carry a vital piece with you to make it hard for anyone to turn it especially without your knowledge..
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Te'Shen - original succubus is a standard one (because she was summoned by meaning of Planar Binding), but she works under the supervision of older, more experienced succubus with levels in Master Spy prestige class. . . .
Fair enough. I just figured that maybe engaging in machinations might be enough to bump her to the next level... or two. Besides, I think she's a little under CRed compared to a ninth level party, but I could be wrong.
Let this be a lesson. Next time after turning the succubus to stone break it into pieces and make sure to always carry a vital piece with you to make it hard for anyone to turn it especially without your knowledge..
Cast rock to mud. Poor it into different vials. Mix it into fields in several different lands. Save a piece to put into a consecrated chapel foundation to a really nice and popular god. ...what? There's no kill like Overkill.
No it doesn't. It causes 2d6 of Charisma DRAIN.
Wait now -- is that the one that everyone uses Lesser Restoration to recover from, or is it the one that everyone uses Lesser Restoration to recover from?
It's the one you actually can't use Lesser Restoration to recover from, genius.
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As a quick note, I'm not at all sure that there should be such major consequences for using/abusing a succubus in this fashion. In game, several NPCs in City of Locusts appear to have done something similar without huge succubus conspiracies to overthrow them.
eg. City of Locusts, Pg. 27 : "Profane Gift(SU) Anemora is under the effects of a profane gift (+2 Con) granted to her by a succubus named Lelaxiss whom she has bound and imprisoned in a distant hidden locale".
Similarly, Areelu Vorlesh has a profane pact with a lilitu demon...
If published NPCs can play this game without huge repercussions, I do kind of wonder why PCs can't...
Uh...all the NPCs in question are actively allied with a Demon Lord, absurdly powerful, and part of the Demonic hierarchy in a sense. And only Anemora seems to have not been friendly with her Profane Gifter. Everyone else is seemingly very friendly with theirs. And even she didn't turn her Succubus to stone, she just stashed her somewhere. For all we know it's very comfortable there, or alternately the succubus is into that kind of thing...
They're on the same side as the demons, so doing this is a lot more workable sans consequences than doing it when you aren't on the same side.
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Actually, I think your party should be rewarded for a behavior like that.
If I was the succubus boss I would even be happy what happened to her. That succubus was weak, unfit to be my underling. But that young wizard that pulled the trick.... He is clever, resourceful. Ambitious.
That is someone I would contact. Congratulate him. Offer him more power.
Isn´t it soo sweet to further drag him down!
Rewards from the abyss are so... interesting
Actually, I think your party should be rewarded for a behavior like that.
If I was the succubus boss I would even be happy what happened to her. That succubus was weak, unfit to be my underling. But that young wizard that pulled the trick.... He is clever, resourceful. Ambitious.
That is someone I would contact. Congratulate him. Offer him more power.
Isn´t it soo sweet to further drag him down!
Rewards from the abyss are so... interesting
Actually thats the reason why succubus do NOT want to kill Magister Hidan, only humiliate and infuriate him. I have quick & dirty rule that after 3 major evil deeds your alingment is one step closer to evil. Hidan already has 2 such deeds behind him, after third he is CE and fair game to succubus - his soul after death is going into the Abyss.
And yes, freeing the succubus is a little unfair to the player, but I try to teach him that overusing Planar Binding/Dominate Person/Charm Monster etc has consequences. Also players are 10th level now and should have no trouble if it comes to fighting the CR 7 succubus (which she tries to dodges at any cost - better to working against them from the shadows).
In the next month we have another session, and then succubus strikes, I'll report what happened if you are interested :]
. . . And yes, freeing the succubus is a little unfair to the player, but I try to teach him that overusing Planar Binding/Dominate Person/Charm Monster etc has consequences. Also players are 10th level now and should have no trouble if it comes to fighting the CR 7 succubus (which she tries to dodges at any cost - better to working against them from the shadows).
In the next month we have another session, and then succubus strikes, I'll report what happened if you are interested :]
I'd say every act has consequences. Every spell is a tool. It's how you use it.
And yes, I know I'd enjoy hearing how things progress for your players. Between a couple of succubi threads, I find myself enjoying these evil little manipulators more and more.
It's the one you actually can't use Lesser Restoration to recover from, genius."Some attacks or special abilities cause ability damage or drain, reducing the designated ability score by the listed amount. Ability damage can be healed naturally. Ability drain is permanent and can only be restored through magic."
Am I missing something?
Doug M.
It does not restore permanent ability drain.
You need regular or greater restoration to remove drain.
Demons are chaotic creatures; they don't cooperate well. But
[...complicated, highly choreographed plan with many moving demonic parts, involving exactly that]
Got to say (for whatever a random thread lurker is worth) I wasn't really hooked this. YMMV I suppose. What you suggest is more or less what I would expect if you did this kind of thing to a devil.
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Got to say (for whatever a random thread lurker is worth) I wasn't really hooked this. YMMV I suppose. What you suggest is more or less what I would expect if you did this kind of thing to a devil.Demons are chaotic creatures; they don't cooperate well. But
[...complicated, highly choreographed plan with many moving demonic parts, involving exactly that]
Uh...I recommend reading Wrath of the Righteous. Demons are capable of cooperating great...when their interests align. Much like Devils.
Any chance of a follow-up to this from the OP?
Sorry for being so late with my raport, lots of stuff happened.
This is how it all ended:
At the start of the new month all leaders of Gilandia get together to talk about the sutuation. The Queen was killed, and their attempt to ressurect her ended in failure (They do not know it, but it is because assassin's ability that those he killed stay dead). There is talk about her luxury funeral, what to tell to the population, and who would be worthy of her place. In the middle of the talk there is a package to High Priest Jhod Kavken (with Magister Hidan Lebeda's diary).
There is a few hours break in the meeting, when it is resumed Jhod speaks:
- "There is one amongst us, who wants more than he has and who stops at nothing to get this. I am talking about a man who is responsible for our dear Queen murder!"
When he starts talking doors opens and three other adventuring parties are getting inside the room and blocking the exits (all of them are weaker than players party, but there is strenght in numbers as they say...).
Then Hight Priest points finger at Hidan and accuses him of queen's murder, as a proof presents his diary.
Hidan, and his right hand man assassin Judasz (both PCs) do not resist arrest, their questioning is scheduled for tomorrow.
In the castle's cell they are visited by:
- Hidan's cohort, Spymistress Viconia - she is confused and feels betrayed, the person she trusted the most, and tried to emulate shows to be a regiciding aspiring tyrant
- General Mordimer (another PC) who promises Hidan swift process and merciless execution, that he will personally look after the security of the execution, "No rescue from the certain death at the last moment here, no sir!"
- both succubi, who reveal themselves as such and enjoy the look of surprise on Hidan's face, an who torment him a little with a promise of "Hot, hot welcome for him on the other side"
- High Priest Jhod Kavken, saying that tomorrow is one and the only chance for Hidan to defend himself from the charge of regicide
In the night, Hidan reveals that he meditated Dimension Door as per his usual routine, he has no components, but for this spell he do not need one.
What does he do?
He teleports to his secret hideout and starts planning.
Not for revenge, not for escape from the country, not for some plan do dominate the judge or some other wacko plan. No.
He spends all night forging documents in which he reveals crimes, sins and evil deeds (both real and false) commited by past ruling members of the Council, PC's and NPC's alike, that the Queen herself was planning to "sell" the country to the River Kingdoms.
Then he leaves all the forged documents in his cohort's, Spymistress Viconia office, and GETS BACK to his cell before dawn.
Next day there is commotion over the new found evidence. The forgery is good, very good and some of Council members believes in it.
In his defence speech Hidan mentions that he only did what he thinked was best for the country, that if he would left Queen with her machinations it would only bring ruin and suffering, that - in reality, he is the good guy here, the true patriot and person who do not fear to get himself a little dirty for the good of the country.
And coincidently, if the news in this papers reach the general population, it will get ugly, very ugly - corrupted Council members and Queen herself? Murdering themselves in broad daylight? Resulting unrest would eat them alive. So the best for them, the best for everybody is if they let him go, and let him be the new king, with the good of the nation at heart :)
The forged documents are good, his speech has some merit.
If it would be any other crime - fraud, common murder, theft from country's treasury it could very well succeed.
BUT! The crime was regicide, and for regicide - to raise one's hand at his Senior, at his Ruler with divine right, is only one penalty - the death penalty...
Before the night ex-Magister and his assassin are walking, their hands tied, under solid guard to the place of their public execution.
For the common born Judasz there is the gallows, for the noble blood Hidan Lebeda there is the executioner's sword.
Judasz is hanged, the executioner raises his sword, Hidan tries one last time to cast Dimension Door despite his metal-clad hands (I gave him 50% Spell Failure Chance) his roll fails, so does the sword, and Hidan's head...
With the resulting massive unrest problems new PC's contend themselves to this day.
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so... wizard player uses rules as written (planar binding, flesh to stone), and even though he knew it was hopeless, tried to use rules as written again (casting dimension door only has a vocal component)... gm responds.... rocks fall, you die.
Let this be a lesson to power gamers everywhere, how dare you get a +2 to a stat.
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so... wizard player uses rules as written (planar binding, flesh to stone), and even though he knew it was hopeless, tried to use rules as written again (casting dimension door only has a vocal component)... gm responds.... rocks fall, you die.
Let this be a lesson to power gamers everywhere, how dare you get a +2 to a stat.
Classic case of GM vs PCs
You did something smart, how DARE YOU!
(casting dimension door only has a vocal component)... gm responds.... rocks fall, you die.A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
Grapple =//= having your hands bound
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Grapple =//= having your hands bound
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD).
Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Pin =//= having your hands bound
I'd say Mikhail wasn't quite in the right, but not far wrong. It wasn't just "getting a +2 to one stat", it was meddling with demons, which is horribly dangerous for a reason. The player knew the risks, no? The only mistake was giving it a 50% spell failure chance instead of forcing a concentration check.
50% spell failure chance was quickly based on casting spell in heavy armor - in this case metal specific gauntlet put on Hidan to hamper his spellcasting
- I was seriously not expecting this turn of events and was taken by suprise, this 50% fail chance was quick & dirty rule, and now that I check equipment section about armor should only affect spells with somatic components
- in all seriousness - correct measures to imprison a wizard was not undertaken, he could still cast (and did it too), extra steps toward safety was taken only at the end, wizard should be gagged, but I wanted to give him one last chance
- player was ok with his character's dramatic death, had a real blast roleplaying falling to CE alignment
But it does == tied up.
How else would you describe the characters situation, mechanically? Entangled? Still requires a check.
Or are you saying the character was under no mechanical effects or conditions while being shackled with metal?
I really dont want to start a huge debate on this, but...
The rules:
Grappled A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Pinned A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Grappling or Pinned: Casting a spell while you have the grappled or pinned condition is difficult and it requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting). Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do no have somatic components.
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
The difference between pin, tie up, and shackles...
Pinned Have you ever been in a wrestling match? And then pin, and had to tap out because your arm was about to be pulled out of socket? Thats a pin..
Tie up that's also extreme limited movement and potential pain, see japanese bondage stuff.
Otherwise restrained Something as restrictive as pinned or tied up.
Shackled I've seen kids run from cops after being handcuffed, and out ran the cops. Way more freedom, and ability to reason. So, are shackles "Otherwise restrained" in the same manner or keeping as pinned or tied up?
My point, is both pinned and tied up are very distracting! Imagine trying to cast a spell during a wrestling match, and you see why it takes a concentration check.
So, how I would interpret raw here. Tie'd up with rope, or chains, restricting gross movement or makes movement painful.. Yup, DC 20 + CMD concentration.
Shackles? Um, if I gave it a concentration DC, it would be something like DC 10, but really, I think the point here is, as written tied up != shackled, I would rule as a GM, you can not make a spell cast with a somatic component.
PS, this is why I believe the item "DIMENSIONAL SHACKLES" exists (see ultimate equipment). Its also why I believe the spell Dimension Door does not have a somatic component. Im out on a limb here, but I think the reason for that is because whoever created the spell in the first place made this spell to escape situations just like this.
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On the subject of shackles...
Manacles can bind a Medium creature.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
I say being shackled is pretty much the same as being tied up, according to the rules.
Edit: Dimensional Shackles makes it impossible to use Dimension Door to escape. That does not mean Dimension Door is an automatic escape from nonmagical shackles.
I stand corrected.
The rules
Manacles can bind a Medium creature. A manacled creature can use the Escape Artist skill to slip free (DC 30, or DC 35 for masterwork manacles). Breaking the manacles requires a Strength check (DC 26, or DC 28 for masterwork manacles). Manacles have hardness 10 and 10 hit points.
Most manacles have locks; add the cost of the lock you want to the price of the manacles.
For the same price, you can buy manacles for a Small creature. For a Large creature, manacles cost 10 times the indicated amount, and for a Huge creature, 100 times the indicated amount. Gargantuan, Colossal, Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine creatures can be held only by specially made manacles, which cost at least 100 times the indicated amount.
Mithral Manacles: These bindings are more difficult to break than standard manacles and are particularly useful against lycanthropes. They have hardness 15, 30 hit points, and a break DC of 30. They are otherwise treated as masterwork manacles
Shackles bind. So, according to the story, what is the DC of the concentration check, DC20 + what?
And I've missed that... shackles grants the helpless condition. Thats amazing. Also, I wonder how you can make a Escape Artist check if your Dex is 0, and you're helpless.
Oh! even better, can you make a strength check if your helpless and have a dex of 0? I think we just found the most powerful item in the game.
So, more thinking about this, based on rules, concentration check would be DC 20 (escape artist DC is 30, making the CMB+10, and concentration check is 10+cmb).
If the player was level 8, and had normal wealth, started with an INT of 20, had profane gift, he'd have a +4 item, caster level 8, +2 int from levels, +2 profane: int 28. Making +concentration +17 vs DC 20. He would only need to roll a 3 or better, so an 85% chance of success. If the caster was level 12 (he managed to cast flesh to stone), he'd have a +6 int item, 3 stat increases due to level, making his INT 31, so +concentration is 22, making it an auto success.
Also, manacles make no sense. How do they allow a strength check or escape artist check if player is helpless as you state.
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The Sisters Market; or, making the succubus more trouble
Douglas Muir 406
What makes the succubus different? No, no, besides the obvious.
I'd say it's this: succubi are, by their vary nature, social creatures. Other demons are solitary top predators, or slithering connivers, or rampaging monsters of pure destruction. But succubi need a social context to work.
So: succubi have a network. You could almost say an organization. Oh, it's a very chaotic organization, full of lies, jealousy, plots and treachery. Succubi don't actually *like* each other. But they have a lot in common, and as noted above they're social creatures, and also they can find mutual profit in working together.
How? Why, through the Sisters Market.
The Market is an informal network of succubi. It reaches all across the Abyss, and well beyond. Think of it as a Craigslist for demons. Though the current incarnation of the Market is fairly recent, something like it has existed for millenia. Because demons are demons, the network regularly gets crashed by cheating and abuse; but because it's so damn useful, it keeps getting recreated.
Succubi trade some physical stuff -- magic items and the like, and of course dominated slaves -- but mostly they trade information, roles, and hooks. Roles are identities that they've taken over. A "hook" is a Suggestion or Domination that a succubus has placed on a victim. (Yeah, it turns out that these things can be traded between two willing demons.)
So, say Candi has infiltrated a small mortal kingdom, dominating the queen and planting suggestions in the King's mind, and is driving the kingdom towards war and utter ruin. But suddenly she has to to away. Maybe she has a better job offer somewhere else; maybe she's suddenly become bored (this is the eighth kingdom she's ruined, frankly she'd like to try something different now); maybe she just got the news that the Shining Crusade is about to come to town and the palace will be crawling with good clerics and paladins. Whatever the reason, she contacts the Sisters Market and offers her role and her hooks -- the suggestions on the King, the domination on the Queen -- for sale. Tanya, who's been hanging around the Abyss torturing the same damned souls over and over, jumps at the chance; she offers an interesting magic item and, oh, the true name of a minor devil. An agreement is reached and, boom.
(Context: my PCs recently defeated a succubus; she got a Suggestion into one of them but then flew off because they were obviously too powerful. She's now traded the suggestion-hook to a more powerful demoness, who has just joined the party undercover.)
The Sisters Market also trades information. Much as they dislike each other, succubi tend to be gossips, and they love nothing better than a good, juicy secret. And they trade tactical information: I serve this demon lord, but I've noticed a weakness in his defenses. I'll trade it for information about the powerful good party that's rumored to be preparing an expedition to my plane of the Abyss. From a PC's point of view, this means that once you've encountered a single succubus, any subsequent one you meet may suddenly know much, much more about you. (This is especially true for characters who have embarked on a career of fiend-hunting, demon-binding, or anything else that seems likely to bring them into conflict with the sisters more than once. Demons are chaotic, but intelligent; they're not going to sit in rooms waiting for you to show up and kill them.)
The Sisters Market isn't only for succubi. Other fiends, and even high-level characters, can occasionally try buying or selling something. Just making contact would be a minor challenge in and of itself, and then of course you're dealing with a bunch of millenia-old chaotic evil outsiders with high Wis, very high Int, and very high Cha indeed. Good luck negotiating with the gal who can read thoughts, cast suggestions all day long, and -- oh, you have Protection From Evil up? -- talk rings around you anyway, because she has +27 Bluff.
Anyway, the Sisters Market. Thoughts?
Doug M.
Not my Idea but I used twice since I read this post. Make the Succubi part of this cabal of demon whores.
Again Big thumds up to Doug M.
If he was more clever, he would have permanently shrink item'd the stone succubus, sealed it in lead, stuck it in a bag of holding, and ruptured it.
Not dead - just irrevocably lost.
The Sisters Market; or, making the succubus more trouble
***Awesome stuff***
Anyway, the Sisters Market. Thoughts?
Not my idea but I used twice since I read this post.
Thoughts? THOUGHTS?? How about a standing freaking ovation! That is pure, unadulterated awesomeness and is now Cannon in my world. Yoink!
Big thumbs up to Doug M.
Seconded wholeheartedly!