This also makes sense when looked at this way - Cat's grace doesn't allow you to qualify for a new feat for the three 3 minutes that it is activeSome spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damageAbility Score Damage
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Is there some part of this that you don't see as clear cut?
The penalty from Enlarge is Ability Damage.
Ability Damage does not reduce an ability.If your ability is not reduced you still meet prerequisites. There's nothing foggy or uncertain in that, simple & clear rules statements which show you do not lose feat access, that's all.
Oh? Why not? (Assuming you level up, of course.)
Oh? Why not? (Assuming you level up, of course.)This also makes sense when looked at this way - Cat's grace doesn't allow you to qualify for a new feat for the three 3 minutes that it is activeSome spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damageAbility Score Damage
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Is there some part of this that you don't see as clear cut?
The penalty from Enlarge is Ability Damage.
Ability Damage does not reduce an ability.If your ability is not reduced you still meet prerequisites. There's nothing foggy or uncertain in that, simple & clear rules statements which show you do not lose feat access, that's all.
Because three minutes is less than twenty four hours.
The post you mention never appeared in the FAQ. More to the point, it is contradicted by the more recent erratum on temporary ability score bonuses. Basically, they count for everything. Which is in line with points 5 and 6 of SKR's post--the rules should have been that way to begin with.
The pertinent line:
"This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."
Satisfying a prerequisites is neither a skill nor a statistic. It's simply a matter meeting demands. When a feat demands 15 dex, and you have a permanent score of 15+, you meet the demand, regardless of any damage or penalty.
The recent FAQ doesn't go against that notion, it only elaborates on which rolls and statistics are affected. Moreover, it doesn't even talk about penalties at all, just bonuses.
|
The effects of the spell are that the creature is one size category larger. Because the creature is of a larger size, it gets a +2 to STR, -2 to DEX, and a -1 to AC. The spell doesn't grant those adjustments, the change in size grants the adjustments.
That being said, the effects are temporary, effectively giving you a +1 to STR stuff, -1 to DEX stuff, and a -1 to AC (which effectively means that your AC is -2 from before the spell). Because the effects are temporary, it doesn't affect whether or not you qualify for feats (or disqualify, for that matter).
On the other hand, if the casting had been followed up with permenancy, the actual ability scores would be adjusted. In that case, the DEX would drop from 15 to 13, and the character would no longer be able to utilize the two-weapon fighting feat.
I'm convinced that in the case of Enlarge, you don't lose the benefits of a feat due to the DEX penalty.
Re: Touch of Idiocy, the text is carryover from older versions. The FAQ and quotes from the designers are more recent. I give them greater precedent, and assume that any apparent contradiction in the spell is just that - a contradiction, and the more recent clarifications should hold true.
Biggest importance I can see to that issue Kazaan (penalty lasting longer than 24 hours) is the bestow curse spell. Applied to an ability score tied to casting, this would be important to know.
I think I would houserule it as HangerFlying says, considered permanent after 24 hours. Good role-play potential there ("Hurry, we've got to get to safety so I can remove this curse before it blots out my mind forever!" or "We've got to stop the mage from reaching his spellbook!"). As for how the designers would rule (no text to base off), I don't know. Probably leniently (meaning not permanent).
Okay so they do not. I do find it interesting that the developer does say its needlessly complicated and that losing the actual score would be a lot easier.
Who knows, maybe in the future when so.ething says u take an atribute dmg or penalty, u actually lose that amount of score. Then the only difference between drain and damage would be duration (aka 1 is temporary and 1 is permanent). Imo I agree that would be a lot easier.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If that's the case, then, at a minimum, the text for penalties and for Touch of Idiocy could use some cleanup.
Okay, here's an interesting question:
Let's say you don't qualify for a feat that requires X strength because you took ability DAMAGE that put you at X-1. I think everyone agrees that you now lose access to the feat.
Now, someone casts a buff (say, Bull's Strength) that increases your Strength > X. Since that's a temporary buff on top of the ability damage, do you regain access to the feat temporarily?
I ask because it seems to be slightly different wording for "bonuses" compared with "penalties". It seems the penalty has to be semi-permanent from ability damage, while bonuses seems to benefit from temporary increases.
|
|
The effects of the spell are that the creature is one size category larger. Because the creature is of a larger size, it gets a +2 to STR, -2 to DEX, and a -1 to AC. The spell doesn't grant those adjustments, the change in size grants the adjustments.
That being said, the effects are temporary, effectively giving you a +1 to STR stuff, -1 to DEX stuff, and a -1 to AC (which effectively means that your AC is -2 from before the spell). Because the effects are temporary, it doesn't affect whether or not you qualify for feats (or disqualify, for that matter).
On the other hand, if the casting had been followed up with permenancy, the actual ability scores would be adjusted. In that case, the DEX would drop from 15 to 13, and the character would no longer be able to utilize the two-weapon fighting feat.
Close enough for government work. I could quibble that the distinction between the change in size being the source of the temporary penalty or the spell itself is moot since it calls out both spells and abilities and, in a mechanical sense, size is essentially an ability. But that's not important.
What I do feel compelled to bring up issue with is the penalty becoming permanent under the permanency spell. The rules that graduate a temporary bonus to a permanent bonus are restricted to the "bonuses" section. There's no equivalency for ability Damage (or penalty which is treated as damage) to "graduate" to ability Drain after 24 hours. So, even with Permanent Enlarge Person and having waited 24 hours for the bonuses to graduate from temporary to permanent (thus letting you qualify for higher Str prereqs), the penalty to Dex remains just that; an ability penalty which, as previously mentioned, is still adjudicated as ability damage. Essentially, there's no such thing as a permanent ability penalty or permanent ability damage. Both of those are covered under ability drain (the permanency of which is irrelevant).
Good point. If there is any FAQ-worthy question in all of this, the issue of temp damage becoming permanent is probably it.
While you are certainly correct in that the rules aren't written that way, it doesn't make logical sense to treat the penalties/bonuses from enlarge person differently when the spell is made permanent.
|
|
Gonna do a paste.
--- paste ---
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/29/13
--- end paste ---
So look at the very first and the last sentence.
Yes, you lose the ability to use the feat if you Enlarge yourself giving your Dex a lower effective score than the pre-reg. Grog, my weapon master, found this out and could not use his whirlwind attack while he was enlarged.
|
|
Yes: let's look those sentences:
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
...
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
Bonuses not penalties. look the glossary, you will find 2 headers:
and
Separate, distinct, different sections of the rules. Bonuses aren't penalties.
What say the section about ?
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.
and
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
What say enlarge person?
The target gains ... a –2 size penalty to Dexterity
Penalty, so you use the relevant rules, that are in the section about penalties.
Let's say you don't qualify for a feat that requires X strength because you took ability DAMAGE that put you at X-1. I think everyone agrees that you now lose access to the feat.You need to go back and read the thread again because I would say the majority of posters don't agree that you lose access to the feat.
You lose access to the feat, as I see it.
You lose access to the feat, as I see it.Let's say you don't qualify for a feat that requires X strength because you took ability DAMAGE that put you at X-1. I think everyone agrees that you now lose access to the feat.You need to go back and read the thread again because I would say the majority of posters don't agree that you lose access to the feat.Why?
1) Spell effects that reduce stats are treated as Ability Damage
2) Ability Damage does not actually lower your score.
3) Since your score is not actually lowered, you retain access to your feats.There is some discussion about the question of 24+ hour penalties, but i think this is fairly plain.
The Dev posts above clarify that any given ability damage applies its penalty wherever the stat would apply, even if not specifically mentioned (e.g. Cat's Grace for a Weapon Finesse user). That doesn't change that ability score damage doesn't actually reduce your score. Such language is included because actually changing the score is something that another "temporary" effect, Ability Drain, can inflict. After all, even if you have a "permanent" score due to AD or a magic item, it's still a modification of your raw stat. Your raw stat is something you still need to track due to dispels, disjunction and antimagic.
Wait a minute, I dupped myself, lol. Enlarge person would NOT cause you to lose access to the feat. Because it is treated as ability damage, since it is temporary (from the spell) and ability damage does not actually lower your score.
Sorry for the confusion.
So, if I have a dex of 14, and have permanency cast for enlarge person on myself, I lose access to feats that require 13 dex, such as improved grapple?
No, you do not.
Why not? It's not temporary.
Right? If a perm bonus like a belt makes one eligeable, should a perm debuff not make you ineligeable?
How does Combat Relexes work with Enlarge Person?
If I have 12 DEX and I Enlarge I now have 10 DEX. How many AoOs do I get per round?
How does Combat Relexes work with Enlarge Person?
If I have 12 DEX and I Enlarge I now have 10 DEX. How many AoOs do I get per round?
From what I understand, it has no effect? Unless permanent?
If one is going to say the feat is unuseable.
Then energy drain temporarily reduces your level below a point does that make the spell inoperable. No, it actually only changes the effective numerical value of the spell.
Level 5 wizard has fireball prepared, gets to negative levels. the spell is still prepared he can still prepare it, just it goes off as 3d6 instead.
Your argument isn't equivalent because there's no such thing as "bonus levels". Negative levels have specific effects on the character and unlike previous editions those effects do not include de-leveling the character, regardless how long the character suffers from negative levels. So, there's no reason to think that the character would lose class features as a result of negative levels.
The crux of the problem is. If enlarge person lets a character qualify for power attack. It logically follows that the same spell could cause them to no longer qualify for two weapon fighting.
edit: Its worth noting that because the rules for penalties are different from the rules for bonuses simple logic fails.
How does Combat Relexes work with Enlarge Person?
If I have 12 DEX and I Enlarge I now have 10 DEX. How many AoOs do I get per round?
Combat Reflexes looks at your bonus not your stat. So, it doesn't matter if the stat is reduced since the bonus gets reduced either way.
an effective 10 dex has a modifier of 0 and a 12 dex with 2 ability damage also has a modifier of 0. So, while combat reflexes wouldn't "turn off" (since it has no pre-reqs.) Its benefit would be moot as it would give you an extra 0 AoO.
Things get weird when your dex drops to an 8 or lower. Since by RAW it seems that the feat would cause you to lose the ability to make AoO.
Normally written a temporary penalty references to work the same as ability damage. Ability damage and temporary ability increases just affect relative ability checks and damage so do did not actually adjust your score as a permanent boost or drain would.
The F.A.Q on Temporary score increase vs Permanent score increases gives a change on bonuses to affect any associated ability as if the score changed, you just can't use temporary to meet prerequisites.
So temporary bonuses and penalties don't seem to actually alter your score for prereqs, but alter checks and damage that use it. Officially bonuses affect anything related such as carry capacity and Combat Reflexes. Unofficially the temporary penalties didn't get the same F.A.Q, they were written the same so I would probably treat it the same to affect combat reflexes but it wouldn't affect prerequisites as temporary bonuses don't count either.
Does temporarily reducing intelligence reduce bonus spells per day? Does reducing con reduce rage turns per day? Same with combat expertise I reckon?
The way I'm reading it these temp penalties don't apply to usage limits, but rather to things requiring rolls (checks, DCs).
How does Combat Relexes work with Enlarge Person?
If I have 12 DEX and I Enlarge I now have 10 DEX. How many AoOs do I get per round?
Combat Reflexes looks at your bonus not your stat. So, it doesn't matter if the stat is reduced since the bonus gets reduced either way.
an effective 10 dex has a modifier of 0 and a 12 dex with 2 ability damage also has a modifier of 0. So, while combat reflexes wouldn't "turn off" (since it has no pre-reqs.) Its benefit would be moot as it would give you an extra 0 AoO.
Things get weird when your dex drops to an 8 or lower. Since by RAW it seems that the feat would cause you to lose the ability to make AoO.
Not quite. Combat reflexes gives you additional AoO's equal to your dex bonus. If you have a dex of 8, you have a dex bonus of 0, and a dex penalty of -1. The feat doesn't care what your penalty is.
Reminder that negative levels can stop you from casting spells since they lower your caster level, and in order to cast a spell you must have a high enough caster level to cast it.
I believe this is incorrect. The only reference to spell access and negative levels I can find is "Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels." I am unable to find a caster level requirement to cast a spell, only level dependant rules for preparing them.
How does Combat Relexes work with Enlarge Person?
If I have 12 DEX and I Enlarge I now have 10 DEX. How many AoOs do I get per round?
Combat Reflexes looks at your bonus not your stat. So, it doesn't matter if the stat is reduced since the bonus gets reduced either way.
an effective 10 dex has a modifier of 0 and a 12 dex with 2 ability damage also has a modifier of 0. So, while combat reflexes wouldn't "turn off" (since it has no pre-reqs.) Its benefit would be moot as it would give you an extra 0 AoO.
Thanks, that makes sense to me (it's how I've always played it, but I didn't know any of the stuff in this thread until the other day, so I thought I'd check).
Things get weird when your dex drops to an 8 or lower. Since by RAW it seems that the feat would cause you to lose the ability to make AoO.
As bbangerter pointed out Combat Reflexes runs of your "bonus", not your "modifier", so you wouldn't ever get to less than 1 AoO.
Thanks for clearing this up for me =)
As bbangerter pointed out Combat Reflexes runs of your "bonus", not your "modifier", so you wouldn't ever get to less than 1 AoO.
Thanks for clearing this up for me =)
Yeah, I think it's because in my head bonus = modifier, especially since it's not unusual for someone to say bonus when they mean modifier (eg "roll a d20 and add your bab and Dex bonus to see if you hit with your ranged attack"). When strictly speaking they are not the same thing.
The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
So, if someone wants to nitpick its not that your bonus is 0 when you have a stat lower than 10. Its that you don't have a bonus at all.
So this leads me back around to another question then. If I manage to temporarily qualify for a feat through any of the agreed upon methods and then take a feat that requires the first feat as perquisite but also by virtue of that feat fulfills the prereq I only had temporarily can i now use the feat all the time?
So this leads me back around to another question then. If I manage to temporarily qualify for a feat through any of the agreed upon methods and then take a feat that requires the first feat as perquisite but also by virtue of that feat fulfills the prereq I only had temporarily can i now use the feat all the time?
I can't seem to find it now. But I remember reading that if you lose the ability to use a feat, you also can no longer use any feats that list that feat as a pre-req. You still have all of the feats you just can't use them.
So, if Temporary Ability X allows me to qualify for Feat A, and Feat B has feat A as a pre-req. Then I can make use of both feats A and B so long as Temporary ability X is active. When Temporary ability X wears off Feat A turns off which in turn causes Feat B to turn off. Even if Feat B's only pre-requisite is Feat A.
I would have to find the example I had years back but basicly if feat A needs you have an ability such as Grab and a feat B requires Feat A but in the process grants you grab do you still need you temp qualifier that you used for feat A to keep it?
I found my original example but it seems the feat has changed since then or i miss read it back then.
A temporary bonus does not make you eligible for feats.