Come on,
does this have to be another thread where Dabbler and others show us precisely why monks suck so hard? I heared you, and I am sure others did too.
This thread should be about the most powerful monk. Stay on track, please.
I read everything in this thread and I find the posts that actually care about the topic very interesting...
|
Come on,
does this have to be another thread where Dabbler and others show us precisely why monks suck so hard? I heared you, and I am sure others did too.This thread should be about the most powerful monk. Stay on track, please.
I read everything in this thread and I find the posts that actually care about the topic very interesting...
Every thread becomes derailed eventually.. :T
|
Tetori's are good, if you want to play a monk that grapples and nothing else. As noted before, they are a one-trick pony; it's a nice trick, but it's one trick.
Actually, they grapple AND do decent damage if you have Final Embrace, which is easy to do if you have an anaconda's coil belt or a two level dip in White Haired Witch.
They can lock down two enemies at once with Snapping Turtle Style, or three if they took the witch levels.
Yes they only grapple. But they can do A LOT by grappling.
|
Tetoris can focus on the controller aspect or the damage aspect.
Level 10 Tetori:
STR: 22 (18 start, +2 Level Ups, +2 Anaconda's Coil)
DAMAGE: 1d10 + 6
FEATS: Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Rapid Grapple, Pinning KO, Final Embrace
ITEM: Anaconda's Coil
If they start already grappling a foe and grapple to damage they can do:
per Constrict 1d10+6
per Grapple 1d10+6
or 6d10+36 for the entire round.
If they are using pinning KO for non-lethal damage:
per Constrict 1d10+6
per Grapple 2d10+12
or 9d10+54 for the entire round
Of course, at this level, odds are they'll be enlarged.
If they start enlarged, already grappling a foe and grapple to damage they can do:
per Constrict 2d6+7
per Grapple 2d6+7
or 12d6+42 for the entire round.
Enlarged pinning KO:
per Constrict 2d6+7
per Grapple 4d6+14
or 18d6+63 for the entire round.
Buy potion of strongjaw, use power attack or just add on normal combat buffs to damage and the damage skyrockets...in addition to the fact your opponent is grappled.
Even if you can't use Pinning KO or constrict (immune to non-lethal or too large, etc), you can still lock down a foe and do damage. If you can't grapple a foe (and as a L10 tetori that will most likely only be incorporeal foes), as a monk you can still dodge tank and be a flank buddy for the ghost killers.
Here's the thing, you are not grappling in a vacuum, you are a grappling specialist on a team of folks. If you can lock down 1 or 2 creatures, impose the painful pinned condition penalties and serve them up to the beatsticks' full attacks, you've more than earned your keep. (In fact, I've used my tetori to run to the boss, grapple them and then run back with them to the DPS folks to shred with full attacks.)
Lol, I was looking at the text for pushing kick, which doesn't require damage, and got confused.
Using Pushing kick in tandem with Scorpion style and Tiger Stye (scorpion style not being a style feat) and slowing them and kicking them away so you can tiger-puonce and they can't move close enough to hit you in an interesting shut-down and Medusa's wrath, you get several hits at highest bonus.
|
That sounds fun. I am working on an improved overrun, Dragon style, Marid style build that focuses on abusing the speed stat. I was inspired by the 'built for speed' thread. Overrun, vicious stomp and charge through for potentially 4 aoo's split between two targets with Stunning Fists, Elemental Fist, Marid Spirit and punishing kick off of the aoo's to render one or two targets out of commission for at least a round (possibly more).
I had originally planned on Panther style but realized how bad the feat chain was and changed the build to a more damage/status effect one. At the moment, it gets to charge through allies and across all terrain, can overrun two targets a round, gets two aoo's per target and knock each prone, deals 1d6+4 cold damage and 1d10+12 (or 14 on the first hit) when overrunning without power attack, stuns at Dc 17 if that fails you're shaken.
This is at level 7. The numbers might be slightly off but only by 1 maybe two points.
At level 8-10 there is the punishing kick and fort save to avoid being entangled on any elemental fist that connects. And by 11th level mantis style is taken to make that stunning elemental attack more likely to work.
Still trying to tweak the build so it is good at most/all levels.
It is for fps play, though. Currently the plan is moms, qigong on and brawler. Seems fairly strong.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Come on,
does this have to be another thread where Dabbler and others show us precisely why monks suck so hard? I heared you, and I am sure others did too.This thread should be about the most powerful monk. Stay on track, please.
I read everything in this thread and I find the posts that actually care about the topic very interesting...
The problem is the most powerful 'Monk' character (not necessarily Monk Class) is a class of just about any other than Monk, or one that only dips into Monk.
Take a look at the Ninja, for example. Several of his Ninja Tricks can be used to emulate Monk abilities, but the real kicker is Unarmed Combat Mastery at 10th level. This lets you deal unarmed damage as a Monk equal to your level -4 and stacks with any actual Monk levels. You could dip 2 levels of Monk (MoMS for Style feats), take Monastic Legacy which adds half your Ninja level to your Monk level for unarmed strike damage. So you've got, effectively, 7 levels of unarmed damage from Monk (plus Monastic Legacy) and 6 levels of Monk from Ninja equaling a 13th level Monks unarmed damage. Think about that; the above character is a Ninja 10/MoMS 2, a 12th level character, but has unarmed damage equal to that of a 13th level Monk. Toss on a Monk's Robe and you've got 18th level damage dice.
Then, you use Sap Adept and Sap Master and deal non-lethal damage on your unarmed strikes. When it comes to unarmed strikes, this guy wrecks face.
Monastic Legacy is the problem there though. It presents the same problem if someone combines it with a Prestige Class that advances Monk damage (Brother of the Seal, Champion of Irori, others?). Ten levels in one of those classes + Monastic Legacy advances unarmed damage by 15 levels.
Tetori's are good, if you want to play a monk that grapples and nothing else. As noted before, they are a one-trick pony; it's a nice trick, but it's one trick.Actually, they grapple AND do decent damage if you have Final Embrace, which is easy to do if you have an anaconda's coil belt or a two level dip in White Haired Witch.
They can lock down two enemies at once with Snapping Turtle Style, or three if they took the witch levels.
Yes they only grapple. But they can do A LOT by grappling.
Like I said: they are one-trick ponies. It's a nice trick, but it's only one trick.
Come on,
does this have to be another thread where Dabbler and others show us precisely why monks suck so hard? I heared you, and I am sure others did too.This thread should be about the most powerful monk. Stay on track, please.
I read everything in this thread and I find the posts that actually care about the topic very interesting...
Yes, and our point is that the "most powerful monk" is basically not a monk, as Tels points out. Whatever you make a pure monk to do as a "powerful monk" you can make a better non-pure monk to do better. In fact in many cases the less monk you include above a two-level MoMS dip, usually the better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They have to make sure no one enjoys playing a monk so they can get Paizo to make them a new one.
Galeena, the Conqueror Ooze and Hikari Shining-Fist make for some really powerful unarmed strike builds.
I notice you suggest bracers of armor for Galeena, but in a pinch even wild armor will do, though you'd only get your monk stuff while wild shaped.
EDIT: wow that post was made a while ago.
|
A MoMS could make great use of a Dragon + Snake + Tiger style combo (throw a little Crane for bonus AC), but most people don't go down the full MoMS class as it's seen more as a dip than full potential.
This is a real shame IMO. People really underestimate the power of combining 3-5 styles together I feel.
panther/snake/dragon/tiger/monkey. all you need, take style master to swap out as free eventually.
there a lot of mooks? your half naked, they -should- attack you thinking its an easy kill (over 75% of the time). Go dragon/Panther/Snake if 15 add on tiger for free PAs, or crange for added defense.
BBEG? tbh, same thing until the GM decides he wants to stop attacking you. then just go tiger and drag full attack and hope for da best.
monkey is there for fun shenanigans and when you get tripped. (the MoMS can also be meshed with drunken master!)
on the other hand, and idea I Had combines 3 of the elemental styles together with dragon. efreet/marid/djinn. at 15 you get 15 energy res. to those 3, and a good bit of extra damage from elemental fist (3d6+ wis on top of unarmed damage+str and PA)
|
|
Monkey Style would be a LOT better if Monkey Shine didn't require a successful stunning fist in order to work. The +4 to hit for being in the same square as your target fixes the accuracy issues of the monk, but having to Hit, Damage, and Stun on a stunning fist without the +4 to hit from the style is not likely to happen.
|
|
They can lock down two enemies at once with Snapping Turtle Style, or three if they took the witch levels.
Yes they only grapple. But they can do A LOT by grappling.
my tetori's record was 6 NPC's at once. snapping turtle style is an amazing feat chain.
Monkey Style would be a LOT better if Monkey Shine didn't require a successful stunning fist in order to work. The +4 to hit for being in the same square as your target fixes the accuracy issues of the monk, but having to Hit, Damage, and Stun on a stunning fist without the +4 to hit from the style is not likely to happen.
i played this character for one session, it used monkey style and mantis style with enforcer and cruel AOMF. had to uber specialize my feats for intimidate to make the build function, but it was a beast when all was said and done. it had a +28 to its stunning save dc, and delt pretty good damage.
it was a druid (ape shaman) 8/monk (sensei) 8 for a one shot. strong jaw and huge sized gorilla beats.
|
|
At level 8 he'll have a +23 to overrun and roll twice each time he does it and take the best result...each time. Non-humanoid monsters of cr 11 have anywhere from a 27-34 cmd and that means that on average my monk would have over a 50% chance to knock anything we fight flat on it's rear end. Consider that I can still be enlarged for at least another +2, that I get to roll twice for each attempt and that I can do this to two targets each time, and it means that even the stronger cr appropriate enemies are going prone with consistency.
Then the humanoids, of which even most home games have their fair share of are going to loathe seeing this guy not being dead. Non full bab classes should assume that their turns begin with them being prone and full bab classes can cross their fingers and hope they aren?
Power attacking does reduce the bonus to +20 but dealing 1d10+12(14 on first atk)&1d6+4 + 6 (power attack) and another 1d10+12+6 to a spell caster or other squishy will make all squishies cringe! Now, if I could just remember, qualify and have room for that feat that allows one to ignore power attack penalties for the first attack made with one-that would be sexy.
Lastly, levels after 8 are really about expanding options. Probably more monk levels to get another style feat and grab Marid cold snap or spirit and or dragon roar or improved initiative or djinni style (deafening could help the party a ton if I go first and make some people fail saves).
And then there is thematic element of punishing kick as they go prone or punishing kick them to prone and vicious stomp as a follow through (axe kick?). I could do touch of serenity instead making the target much more useless. Ah, I can't wait to make this!
So many effects off a single hit. *rubs hands together gleefully*
*edit#2* the cmb would actually be 2-3 (possibly even 4 points higher) due to basic stuff I forgot like aomf+1 and weapon training. So cmb 25-26 overrun at lvl 8? Sounds good to me.
A MoMS could make great use of a Dragon + Snake + Tiger style combo (throw a little Crane for bonus AC), but most people don't go down the full MoMS class as it's seen more as a dip than full potential.
This is a real shame IMO. People really underestimate the power of combining 3-5 styles together I feel.
panther/snake/dragon/tiger/monkey. all you need, take style master to swap out as free eventually.
BBEG? tbh, same thing until the GM decides he wants to stop attacking you. then just go tiger and drag full attack and hope for da best.
on the other hand, and idea I Had combines 3 of the elemental styles together with dragon. efreet/marid/djinn. at 15 you get 15 energy res. to those 3, and a good bit of extra damage from elemental fist (3d6+ wis on top of unarmed damage+str and PA)
Using Tiger and dragon together...
Tiger claw gives a Full Attack option to make one attack and deal damage for both hands. If that is your first attack with Dragon Style in the round, how does the STR damage get multiplied? Is essentially 2 damage rolls with 2str each, one with .5 str bonus from Tiger claw and one with Dragon on top of the 1.5 str from Ferocity?
Or does dragon apply to both as it is the first with 2 damage rolls
I was refering to the Full attack option granted by Tiger Claw. You make one attack, get to bullrush the enemy and roll damage twice.
Further,you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Which stacks with ferocity.
While you are using the Tiger Style feat and have both hands free,you can use a full-round action to make a single unarmed strike with both hands. Use your highest base attack bonus,rolling unarmed strike damage for each hand separately...
If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack,can add half your Strength bonus to one of the damage rolls.
Since it is one attack, with two damage rolls, do you get the 1.5 from the Dragon Style feat (which stacks with the Dragon Ferocity) for both, or just one of the two rolls?
This is unrelated to the .5 bonus you get to one damage roll from Tiger Claw if you Power Attack
I'm doing a level+by level comparison and considering Feats and Features (weapon training and Focus/Spec feats for the fighter) (styles) for the monk
By taking a Level of Unarmed Fighter for WF, PA, and Tiger Style, a Monk MoMS going Tiger/Dragon/Mantis actually seems to keep up and potentially OUTPACE the Mighty TwoHandedFighter in terms of attack/damage on occasion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This Monks vs. Fighter comparison you are making, are you paying equal levels of optimization to each? Or are you biased in favor of one or the other?
4 Fighter (Weapon Master) / 16 Monk (MoMS/Drunken Master/Qigong)
The four levels of weapon master net you light armor proficiency (Brawling armor), wpn training (gloves of dueling) and wpn specialization... a total of +6 to hit beyond BAB and +7 to damage on your unarmed strieks.
With MoMS you take dragon and snake for offense and defense/offense and what ever other styles you want.
Drunken Master gets you ki points if you want to use them, but I find that conserving my immediate actions for snake is a better use of them than spending on ki abilities (beyond buffing barksin before battle.)
I made a couple mistakes while i was counting at work today: Gloves of dueling and MoMS takes effect at Lv9 (moms8) not Lv7. What level is it reasonable to expect that a Fighter will get those, as a +2 to hit and Damage is kinda HUGE
I also had a math error with adding Weapon Focus. I'm still going to toss the build up in a few, but with the +3 that i haden't added into the fighter's To Hit, the 2-handed Fighter takes a pretty strong lead. most days.
Just to be clear Overhead Chop only works on single attacks, and Backswing ony works on the iterative during a fill attack (he asks to avoid feeling even dumber later)
Just to be clear Overhead Chop only works on single attacks, and Backswing ony works on the iterative during a fill attack (he asks to avoid feeling even dumber later)
Not quite, Backswing doubles the strength bonus on all attacks after the first, this is different than iterative attacks. For instance, if you have an extra attack from Haste, and your attack bonus is something like +15/+15/+10/+5 then you get 3 attacks that have double the strength bonus. If he has Furious Focus, then the first attack takes no Strength penalty, so he'd have something like +18/+15/+10/+5 and his damage is going to be something like 2d6+20 on the first attack and 2d6+27 on the second, third and fourth attack.
Also, something I'm not 100% clear on is whether or not Over-hand Chop applies on things like Attack of Opportunities. If it does, then it's something that needs to be kept in mind. In fact, makes me think of a CAGM Barbarian might want to take a 3-level dip into Two-Handed Figther.... Hmmmm...
To be safe, I would say the Over-hand Chop doesn't apply on AoO, because it uses attack action or charge, mainly due to the Vital Strike ruling that an attack action is a standard action.
I'd say that Overhand Chop works on Attack actions and Charges (as noted in the description)[/ooc]
I didn't add Furious Focus or Gloves of Dueling. I'm not sure when you get the Gloves. FF does help the fighter a lot. It is with the attack bonus on the first attack
Lv1: Unarmed Fighter, Lv2+ Monk MoMS
Human: Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Lv1: Power Attack
Fighter: TIger Style
Lv2: monk
Monk 1: Tiger Pounce
Lv3: Dragon Style
Monk 2: Dragon Ferocity
Lv5: Tiger Claws
Lv7: Mantis Style
Monk 6: Mantis Wisdom
Lv9: Elemental Fist
MoMS 8: three styles
Lv11: Dragon Roar AoE
Monk10: Medusa's Wrath
1: WF, PA
4: WS, PS increase
5: Weap Training
8: GWF, PA increase
9: WT-2
12: GWS,
13: WT-3
The side by side while Power Attacking, ignoring the actual Str Mod. only features/Feats bonuses.
Lv1
Unarmed : +1 for 1d6+Str+2 WF, PA
2-handed: +1 for 2d6+1.5str+3 WF, PA, 2-h weapon
==Monk can use a Reach weapon and Unarmed Strike while fighter is just GreatSwording
Lv2
Monk: +2 for 1d6+str+3 (swift action half-move and) . . . PA penalty to AC!!!
2-hF: +2 for 2d6+1.5 str+3
== Monk has tiger's move, so if an enemy tries to run away monk catches up more easily
Lv3
Monk: +3 for 1d6+2str+2 charge over anything
2-hF: +3 for 2d6+2str+3
Lv4
Monk: +4 for 1d6+2str+2 - - - (1d6 drunken ki once)
*2-hF: +3 for 2d6+2str+8 PA increase, Weapon Spec
== monk's +1 to hit doesn't match the fighter's 6 damage
Lv5
Monk: +5 for 1d8+2str+4 FA w/Tiger Claw = 2d8+4str+8
2-hF: +5 for 2d6+2str+9 (weapon training) (not adding the +2/+2 gloves of dueling)
== Single attack, Fighter wins without Difficult Terrain, but on a Full Attack, Monk is more likely to deal more damage.
Not sure what level to add the gloves so leaving them out for now
Lv6
Monk: +5 for 1d8+2str+4
2-hF: +6 for 2d6+2str+9
- Full attack: +6 for 2d6+6+2str+3 and +1 for 2d6+1.5 str+9
Lv7
Monk: +6(8) for 1d8+2str+4
2-hF: +7 for 2d6+2str+9
- Backswing: +9 for 2d6+1.5 str+9 and +4 for 2d6+2str+9
Lv8
Monk: +9* for 1d8+2str*+4*
2-hF: +8 for 2d6+2str+12 GWF
Lv9
Monk: +10 for 1d10+2str+4+2d6 elemental
2-hF: +10 for 2d6+2str+13 Weap Training +2/+2
Lv10
Monk: +10 for 1d10+4+2str
2-hF: +11 for 2d6+2str+13
Lv11
Monk: +11 for 1d10+2str+6+3d6 Can get 3 hits at full BAB vs Wrath-able foes
- Roar: Standard cone of 1d10+2str+6+3d6 and shaken
2-hF: +12 for 2d6+2str+13
- Backswing: - Backswing: +12 for 2d6+1.5 str+13, +7 for 2d6+2str+13, +2 for 3rd
Lv12
Monk: +12 for 1d10+2str+8+3d6
2-hF: +12 for 2d6+2str+18 PA increase, Greater Weap Spec
Lv13
Monk: +13 for 2d6+2str+8+3d6
2-hF: +14 for 2d6+2str+19 Weap Training
The numbers above don't tell the whole story, however. A major thing to consider is MAD vs. SAD and over-all character strength/build.
For example, your Monk is taking none of the styles that adds to AC or defense, so the power attack penalty to AC is going to be a significant detractor.
Another thing to consider is the actual ability scores of your character. Your fighter is going to be strength prime, and his strength is going to be his highest score, followed by con and dex/wis for further defenses. Your Monk is going to need Str, wis/con/dex to keep everything relevant. Where a Fighter might have 22 strength, your Monk might only have an 18.
In addition to that, enhancement bonuses matter, and so too do special properties. When your Monk can afford a +1 amulet, the Fighter can afford a +2 Greatsword (or +1 with a special property). With the PA penalty to AC, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Fighter with a better AC meaning your Monk will be squishier.
As for Gloves of Dueling, you're looking in the level 10 - 12 range on average. I'd say level 8 is the absolute earliest you'd see them, but that's also ~50% of WBL. Even at 10th you're spending ~25% of your WBL on an the gloves.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having only read the first page...
I LOVE Hungry Ghost Monks. While a Scimitar is good, I love this build.
Male Human
NG
2 Barbarian (Wild Rager/Hurler)
1 Cleric (Crusader)(Shizuru)
2 Fighter (Lore Warden)
15 Monk (Hungry Ghost Monk/Qunggong Monk) (Favored Class: +7 Stunning Fists/day, +15 to resist grapple)
Progression:
2 Monk, 1 Cleric, 2 Barbarian, 5 Monk, 2 Fighter, 8 Monk
Starting stats, 20 point buy:
STR 15 +2 Racial, +5 Level, +2 Inherant
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 15 +3 Inherant
CHA 8
STR 24 +7 (30 +10)
DEX 14 +2 (20 +5)
CON 14 +2 (20 +5)
INT 8 -1
WIS 18 +4 (24 +7)
CHA 8 -1
TRAITS
- Enlightened Warrior: Can be a monk and NG or N
- Threatening Defender: 1 less penalty on attack rolls when fighting defensively
1 Crane Style
1* Racial Heritage (Half-Orc)
1* Dodge: +1 dodge AC
1* Punishing Kick: 16/day, 15 ft. push or prone, or 5 ft. push and prone, Fort DC 27 (10+1/2Character Level+WIS) to avoid prone
2* Deflect Arrows: 1/round, negate ranged attack if you have a free hand
3* Weapon Focus (Katana)
3 Crusader's Flurry (Katana)
5 Gore Fiend: regain a round of rage on a melee crit (or when self is critted), max 1/round
7 Crane Wing: 1/round, +4 dodge AC against one attack (before rolled) if you have a free hand
9* Combat Reflexes: +DEX number of AoO's a round
9 Stunning Fist: 16(+4)/day, Fort DC 27(10+1/2Character Level+WIS)
11 Crane Riposte: When attack that you designate with Crane Wing misses, provokes AoO
11*Improved Critical (Katana): Double threat range with katanas
12*Critical Focus (Katana): +4 to confirm crits
12*Combat Expertise
13 Keen Scent
15 Bleeding Critical
15*Medusa's Wrath: When full-attacking, if at least one attack is unarmed, then you get two extra unarmed attacks, hast to be against dazed/flat-footed/paralyzed/staggered/stunned/unconscious foes
17 Power Attack: -5 attack, +10 damage, melee attacks
19 Extra Rage: +6 rounds of rage/day
19*Improved Critical (Unarmed): Double threat range of unarmed attacks
SKILLS (70+4)
Perception +30: +20+3+7
Sense Motive +30: +20+3+7
Acrobatics +22: +14+3+5
Climb +14: +1+3+10
Swim +14: +1+3+10
Survival +11: +1+3+7
Ride +9: +1+3+5
Heal +15: +5+3+7
Spellcraft +3: +1+3-1
Profession (Herbalist) +13: +1+3+7+2
Stealth +9: +1+3+5
Handle Animal +3: +1+3-1
Knowledge: Nature +3: +1+3-1
Knowledge: Arcane +3: +1+3-1
Knowledge: Religion +3: +1+3-1
Craft: Alchemy +12: +3+3-1+2+5
LANGUAGES
Common
RAGE POWERS (17 rounds of rage/day)
2 Lesser Celestial Totem: +(healer's Caster Level/Class Level) points healed when healed by magic, SLA, or supernatural ability
RAGE
+4 morale STR/CON, +2 morale Will saves, -2 AC, fatigued after rage
When you reduce a creature to 0 or fewer hit points, Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian's level + CON mod) or become confused.
KI POOL (14 Ki Points (7 Class, 7 WIS))
-1 swift, extra attack when flurrying
-1 swift, +20 speed for 1 round
-1 swift, +4 dodge AC for 1 round
-1 standard, SLA Barkskin (self-only), +5 Natural Armor for 150 minutes
-2 move, Supernatural, "Dimension Door", CL 15 (1000 ft.)
-0 immediate, Ki Stand, Stand up from prone, can spend 1 Ki point to do so without provoking AoO's
QINGGONG SWAPS
- Barkskin (Slow Fall): 1 ki
- Ki Stand (High Jump): 0 ki, immediate action
- ? (Quivering Palm)
CLERIC SPELLS (CL1, Casts as Level 1)
0 3/day (Detect Magic, Spark, Guidance)
1 1+2+1D/day (Deadeye's Lore, Comprehend Languages, )
-D- Deathwatch
CHANNEL ENERGY
1d6, 2/day
CLERIC DOMAIN
Gentle Rest: 3+WIS(7)/day, melee touch attack, Standard Action, stagger living enemy for 1 round or stagger undead enemy for WIS(7) rounds or make living, staggered enemy sleep for 1 round
BA +15
HD 16d8+2d10+2d12+100 (200 HP) (272 if Retrained)
Spd. 80 ft.
AC 41 (10+5(DEX)+7(WIS)+5(Deflection)+8(Armor)+1(Dodge)+5(Class))
+4 Dodge (Fighting Defensively)
+5 Natural Armor (Barksksin)
-4 Wild Attacking
-2 Raging
Fort (+22) +9+3+3+2+5
Ref (+14) +9+0+0+0+5
Will (+18) +9+0+0+2+7
EQUIPMENT
Monk's Outfit (5 gp) 2 lbs.
Adamantine Katana
+3, Furious (+1), Holy (+2), Impervious (+3k gp), Vicious (+1),
- Dragonskin Grip (250 gp): +2 against being disarmed
- Locking Gauntlet: +10 against being disarmed
- Weapon Cord: Can retrieve dropped weapon as a move action
Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess (2k)
Darkwood Composite Longbow
- Grappling Arrows
-
Clockwork Prostheses Right Arm (6400 gp)
Lift 1.5x max load over head, +10 bonus to CMD against disarm
+1, Dueling (+14k gp)
Clockwork Prostheses Left Leg (6400 gp)
Lift 2.5x max load off ground, +4 bonus to CMD against trip and bull rush attempts
+1, Conductive (+1), Speed (+3), Lifesurge (+2)
Bracers of Armor +8
Monk's Robes
Ring of Protection +5
Ring of Ki Mastery
Ioun Torch
Spell Component Pouch (5 gp) 2 lbs.
x100 Shuriken (10 lbs.)
20 gp
Darkwood Staff (CL8, 10 Charges)
- Deadeye's Lore
- ?
- ?
-With Arcane Battery (+1 total charge, can recharge 2 charges/day instead of 1)
Handy Haversack
2k gp
[
Meditation Crystal (100 gp)
x10 Oil of Bless Weapon (CL1, Paladin) (50 gp each, 500 gp)
Compass
Surgeon's Tools
Astrolobe (1k gp)
Sextant
Small Tent
Blanket
200 ft. of Spidersilk Rope
Fishing Kit (5 sp) 3 lbs.
Holy Text (25 gp) 2 lbs.
Surgeon's Tools (20 gp) 5 lbs. (additional +1 when treating wounds/deadly wounds with healer's kit)
Healer's Kit, 10 Uses (50 gp) 1 lb. (+2 on Heal checks)
Coffee Pot (3 gp) 4 lbs.
Ground Coffee Beans (4 sp) 5 lbs.
x6 Weapon Blanch, Silver (30 gp) 3 lbs. (Can coat 10 pieces of ammo each)
Sawback Dagger (7 gp) 1 lb.
Spyglass (1k gp)
Alchemist's Lab (): +2 circumstance bonus to Craft (alchemy)
Cauldron of Brewing (3k gp): +5 competence bonus to Craft (alchemy)
Hybridization Funnel (200 gp)
Iron Spike of Safe Passage (2k gp)
Traver's Anytool (250 gp)
]
Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath
Wand of Lesser Restoration (CL1, Paladin, 50 Charges)(750 gp)
PERMANENT SPELLS
Left Leg: Greater Fang +5 (CL20, 600 gp) (7500 gp Permanency)
NOTES
Flurry Attacks
+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
+17 Wild Attacking
+17 Ki ability
+17 Speed (Unarmed, Leg)
+17/+17 (Unarmed) Against Stunned/Staggered
Attack Modifiers
+10 STR (+12 when raging)
+3 Enhancement (+5 when raging)(Katana)
+5 Enhancement (Unarmed - Left Leg)
+1 Feat (Katana)
-0 Fighting Defensively
-2 Wild Attacking
-4 Power Attack
Damage:
Katana
1d8
+10 STR (+12 when raging)
+3 Enhancement (+5 when raging)
+8 Power Attack
+2d6 Vicious
+2d6 against evil
(Spellstoring)
Unarmed (Left Leg)
2d10
+10 STR (+12 when raging)
+5 Enhancement
+8 Power Attack
Options:
(Conductive) Gentle Rest (2 uses): Staggers opponent
Stunning Fist: Stuns opponent (Fort DC negates)
Punishing Kick: Pushes the opponent back 15 ft, or makes them prone (Fort DC to negate), or pushes them back 5 ft. and makes them save against falling prone
Crit:
Katana 15-20/x2
Unarmed 19-20/x2
additional effects When Crit:
Deal 2d6 stacking bleed damage
heals 15 hp
regain a point of ki
- When raging: additional 15 points healed, regain a round of rage
- with left leg, against undead: additional 1d8, or heal half of 1d8
additional effects when kill an enemy or drops an enemy to < 1 hp:
heals 15 hp
regain a point of ki
- When raging: additional 15 points healed
I was incredibly tempted to play this build at this campaign my buddies and I just started, but went with an oracle instead. :(
Edited to Add: The math may not be a hundred percent in that copy/paste from a document on my comp. From what I remember, I was in the middle of tweaking the monk when I decided to go with my oracle.
They have to make sure no one enjoys playing a monk so they can get Paizo to make them a new one.
And how will we stop people enjoying the monk, Durngrun? It is what it is, and people will like it or they won't. Our arguments are based purely on the mechanics, which are hardly subjective. Enjoyment of a character is 100% subjective; the only time they meet is when enjoyment of the character hinges on mechanical effectiveness. Our complaints won't change this, but they might forewarn someone thinking of playing a monk of the classes weaknesses and strengths, and that's not a bad thing.
Yes, I want Paizo to fix the monk, which they themselves have admitted is sub-par mechanically, and that's because a lot of peoples' enjoyment of a class does require it be somewhat mechanically effective compared to other classes. Those that are not bothered by that are not effected either way. Those that are get a better monk if Paizo fix it. It's a win-win.
I'm doing a level+by level comparison and considering Feats and Features (weapon training and Focus/Spec feats for the fighter) (styles) for the monk
By taking a Level of Unarmed Fighter for WF, PA, and Tiger Style, a Monk MoMS going Tiger/Dragon/Mantis actually seems to keep up and potentially OUTPACE the Mighty TwoHandedFighter in terms of attack/damage on occasion.
Depends on your base assumptions. There was one comparison in another thread where a 20th level monk and fighter were compared in odds against a Balor. If you assumed they just traded blows, the fighter won in 1-2 rounds, the monk in 4, with roughly equal chances of winning. If you assumed they had to move to enter combat, the fighter won in 2 rounds, the monk still won in 4, with the monks odds slightly better. But if you assumed the Balor played it smart and avoided full-attacks by keeping moving, then the fighter won in 4 rounds and the monk in eight, with the monk more likely to die from decapitation than the fighter to fail a save to domination.
It also depends on choices of equipment, AC of the target, choices of feats etc.
Yeah, today's adgenda includes 20 pt buy builds stolen from other threads (at least the fighter) comparing full stat threads and trying to deal with wealth.
Biggest thing I'm noticing is that fighter basically builds himself, while the monk takes his everything just to keep up...
I call shennanigans!
So I took a look at the 2-HF at 15 and on, and almost fell out my chair at the diner I'm waiting for breakfast at.
a 2-HF is at Lv 20 can take a standard action to attack at +22+Str+enhancement as a standard action and do 10d4+100+50+10str+5(enh).
Dexestating blow to threaten on a hit and auto confirm a threat with scythe for x5
But in PFS, the monk can kinda keep up decently...
Gotta look into high level options later at some point, but it's been a fun exercize in futility
|
|
So I took a look at the 2-HF at 15 and on, and almost fell out my chair at the diner I'm waiting for breakfast at.
a 2-HF is at Lv 20 can take a standard action to attack at +22+Str+enhancement as a standard action and do 10d4+100+50+10str+5(enh).
Dexestating blow to threaten on a hit and auto confirm a threat with scythe for x5
Eh, if that makes you upset, please don't look at what a 20th level full caster can do. Trust me.
Level 20 is not where you should be comparing classes anyway, most games never get there. 7-12 is the golden spot where Martials and Casters are roughly equal, that usually the area to look at.
It's not the least bit upsetting (fighter can have nice things). It's more my being silly than anything. I like the word and think it applies. It's up there with AM BARBARIAN but is a straight up 0 shennanigans vanilla archetype build that makes perfect sense to use.
May change tac to look at a vanilla fighter in comparison cause AC and defenses are worth considering.
Yeah, today's adgenda includes 20 pt buy builds stolen from other threads (at least the fighter) comparing full stat threads and trying to deal with wealth.
Biggest thing I'm noticing is that fighter basically builds himself, while the monk takes his everything just to keep up...
Yes, this is what we all noticed. It is possible to build a fairly strong monk...but it takes every bit of system-fu you can muster, along with cherry picked feats and gear, and you cannot afford to put one foot wrong.
I call shennanigans!
So I took a look at the 2-HF at 15 and on, and almost fell out my chair at the diner I'm waiting for breakfast at.
a 2-HF is at Lv 20 can take a standard action to attack at +22+Str+enhancement as a standard action and do 10d4+100+50+10str+5(enh).
Dexestating blow to threaten on a hit and auto confirm a threat with scythe for x5But in PFS, the monk can kinda keep up decently...
Gotta look into high level options later at some point, but it's been a fun exercize in futility
Yes, PFS's limitations make a monk an OK choice, especially if you are not sure who you will be taking on the next adventure with. But like most things, it's not a case of shining so much of not sucking as badly.
The scythe trick does let your recreate the blow at 3:04 in this video.
When I think of awesome Scythe stuff, I think of RWBY. For the 'one hit kill' thing, I think of this scene. (Spoilers for mid-season climax of season 1)
For items, I'm trying to figure out the order of how to get them.
Since this is a damage thread, I'm budgeting between a quarter to half on weapon/damage boosting, a quarter to armor/defense as a rule and a quarter to Stat boosting items, with the leeway based on how much is spent on weapon.
Also looking at when to buy the gloves for the fighter. This is a PROCESS! Sheesh.
But the formula look right?
I'd say a Brawler is one of the best Monk's mechanically, since it can do unarmed striking pretty effectively with fighter feats and full BAB.
Plus Brawler armor and AoMF and anything that benefits the Monk is going to benefit the Brawler.
|
|
It works with both. Fighter is a bit better, especially with the 3-level MoMS or even MoMS of the Sacred Mountain dip for Dragon style and toughness and Monastic Legacy.
On a bit of a tangent-is there a way to make a viable Lock-down monk? I was thinking a Dex/Wis Ki Mystic/Sensei/Monk of the Lotus with Bewildering Koan would be nice, since you can make opposed bluff checks and will save attacks in the same round to try and take down the opponent, and hitting is less of a problem and DR [at least, in my experience] is only an issue at low levels [particularly with Lemures].
@mechanical pear: DUDE. i had completely forgotten about the enlightened warrior trait. holy crap that opens so many paths up
@mechanical pear: DUDE. i had completely forgotten about the enlightened warrior trait. holy crap that opens so many paths up
It does and doesn't, because Enlightened Warrior is an Aasimar trait.