Mother of CoDZilla.
They get access to both Divine Power and Wildshape.
Lyee, you wander for spells as well. They allow you to prepare the spirit magic spells in your slots as well.
But yeah some Spirits are pretty underpowered at low levels. But thats full casters in general.
I loooove the new spell list, but they should remove Divine Power.
I agree some Spirits are pretty underpowered at low levels, but I really don’t have any problem with that.
I hope they tone down the Codzilla part of the class and remove Divine Power (and medium armor proficiency). Swap Divine Power for arcane eye and remove medium armor and we have a winner.
And... I wouldn't mind having Remove Blindness/Deafness added to her list.
Errata: Shaman gets Heal added to her (Druid) list at spell level 7, but the Druid already has Heal as a level 7 spell.
I'm glad someone else saw it too. This thing is a spell casting god at higher levels. Heck its a spell casting god at lower levels too. Lets count the number of spell casting perks.
Spirit Magic: Better Domains and they get class features. Can spontaneously choose which domain slot they use for the day.
Spell Casting: Gets all the good stuff from both the Cleric AND Druid lists. Nothing is sacred =(
Lore Domain: At high levels, if you were able to afford a 13 Int at creation, you have become unto a god of power. This is your Wandering Spirit late game.
Spell Combo at 12th: Contingency Divine Power when you become under the effects of a Beastshape 3 spell. Welcome to Huge Allosaurus swinging for +16/+16/+16 without adding in an Amulet, Magic Fang, or even a base Str Bonus. And has a 15ft Reach.
That's what the Lore spirit gives you.
If you're good aligned, the Bones spirit gives you the inability to pick up a weapon without receiving a negative level.
I really like the Shaman, but there's something about it that bugs me: you have a list of spirits to choose from, one of which can change every day, and then in each of those spirits there are five hexes, of which you will eventually get three, plus two that can change every day. That's a whole lot of options that take up a lot of space, both in the book and in my memory if I want to play one. And the end result isn't actually a whole lot of variability. Solution: make a larger list of hexes, but make it one list independent of spirits. The shaman is already linked thematically to communing with a bunch of different spirits, so there's no reason to require a thematic link. Then the decision each day about spirits is much simpler and you don't run into the "only two of these five things suit my character" problem.
Spirit Animal (Ex): At 1st level, a shaman forms a close bond with a spirit animal tied to her chosen spirit. This animal is her conduit to the spirit world, guiding her along the path to enlightenment. The animal also aids a witch by granting her skill bonuses. This spirit animal functions like a familiar using the wizard’s arcane bond class feature, except as noted in the Spirit Animal section. A shaman must commune with her spirit animal each day to prepare her spells. While the spirit animal does not store the spells like a witch’s familiar does, the animal serves as her conduit to divine power. If a shaman’s spirit animal is slain, she cannot prepare new spells or use her spirit magic class feature until the spirit animal is replaced.
C&P Typo.
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wait... so the 3.5 spirit shaman's casting mechanic was recycled for the arcanist, but we can't use it for the shaman too? it's a great system for the kind of flexibility i think a shaman should have and it's certainly better than the weird blend of prepared and spontaneous casting currently implemented.
It was also the warmage and beguiler's casting mechanic if memory serves. That's not to say it wouldn't be a great fit for the shaman, because it would, but I also think it's a great fit for the arcanist.
The only thing that captures a witch feel is that they have renamed the spirit abilities hexes instead of revelations. In practice the class feels like a druid/oracle.
I'm just not seeing what feels druidic about it. It uses the druid spell list (mostly), but that's it. And how many druids have you seen wandering around that were super spell-oriented? They're usually wild shapers and/or animal companion-focused.
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Unless they are going to rename this class "Witchdoctor" then I would like for them to rename the hex into something else.
So, I'm trying to rate the spirits best to worst as main and secondary, and decided to do some database queries on what spells could be gained from the Lore spirit's Arcane Enlightenment.
Source: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/tools/spells-db
Of the 623 spells listed with a source of Core, 339 are available to the wizard but not the druid.
Using all sources, this becomes 805 out of 1688 spells.
I just thought that might be of interest to some people. The numbers themselves aren't probably super useful, but I'm bored and having fun with a database, wee~
I see no issues with the shift to Druid Spell list. The bonus spells based on Spirit and the extra spells to the list on Page 37 more than fix any issues of selection.
Do please fix any Spirit blessing that use non-primary caster status for bonuses. Avoid MAD at all costs.
Looking nice though.
The Lore Spirit hexes are just silly-MAD.
You need INT to use the spells one hex grants you. Three have duration based on CHA. One replaces INT on skill checks with WIS, and the spirit itself gives bonus INT while all your spells still rely on WIS.
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The Lore Spirit hexes are just silly-MAD.
You need INT to use the spells one hex grants you. Three have duration based on CHA. One replaces INT on skill checks with WIS, and the spirit itself gives bonus INT while all your spells still rely on WIS.
Wow, I missed how nasty that is. Woof. ya, they need to go through all these classes looking for MAD and red lining them hard.
I'm fine with some level of MAD, but I think the Lore Spirit in particular overdoes it. In general, I can see Shamans having below-average physical stats which isn't a tragedy (at least they have 4+int skill points, so Int is fine to leave low unless you ever want to take advantage of the 805 spells Wandering Hex can grant you with the Lore Spirit.)
Battle Spirit is the only one that really encourages hitting stuff, and that has a low Cha-dependance so I'm alright with it. Of course, these low physical stats for the other Spirits mean that the level-11 weapon-enchant-bonuses can be written off almost entirely.
So, according to my players, the Shaman and the Hunter are currently the throwaway classes of this playtest, far outshined by...well, everything else.
The Shaman's complaint is largely that while it does feel a bit more like a shaman now, it just isn't that interesting. It doesn't stand up well to the witch, the druid or the oracle. Everyone passed on it. The Hunter made one of my players ask "what is this?" to which I replied "it's supposedly a hunter", to which they said "I don't get it". The most elaborate comment I got on the Shaman was "wow that looks boring".
I see no issues with the shift to Druid Spell list. The bonus spells based on Spirit and the extra spells to the list on Page 37 more than fix any issues of selection.
Do please fix any Spirit blessing that use non-primary caster stats for bonuses. Avoid MAD at all costs.
Looking nice though.
I agree. by the looks of the extra spells it doesn't seem like my play style will change from the previous shaman thankfully :)
I do think the devs should say that this is pretty much a druid/oracle hybrid now.
The hybrid spell list is good for me.
It still needs:
Undead control powers
Spirit summoning
Telepathy
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You know I haven't said it here but I may as well, but I actually really dislike the move to the druid list. I have a reason to play it as a cleric with some druid/arcane spells, but as a druid with some cleric/arcane spells I really don't. I don't think wrath of nature when I think shaman, I think about someone who's assisting by buffing themselves and others and possibly laying down some curses on the foes of his people.
That said, I think there are a lot of ways to do shaman so I don't think its really the most awful thing ever if I lose personal interest. I will say it doesn't feel like this or the last version have the spirits with them. Feels more like the spirits are cheerleaders who showed up once in the day, gave you a quick gift, and walked off. I would like it if the spirits took more of an active role in the shamans life. A familiar that holds your spells just doesn't do that much and they tend to be tucked away.
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What? There are so many druid offensive spells, I don't think touch of fatigue is the only offensive spell that you can cast from the druid spell list.
Druid spell list + extra spells + your spirit magic spells...I'm pretty sure that Shaman has the biggest spell list available.
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Ok, working on figuring out which spirits could use more love, the below is a draft and I'd like feedback on which seem out of place:
These probably need some love. New hexes, re-worked hexes, or unusable spirit abilities being fixed would be nice.
Lore - This Spirit is very confused about its Attributes. It gains INT and requires INT for its Arcane Enlightenment Hex, but it has a Hex to replace INT with WIS for skill checks. It also has three hexes relying on CHA just to rub in how many attributes it needs. If you picked this as your main hex for mechanical reasons, it would be so you can use Wandering Hex to select different spells from Arcane Enlightenment each day without picking Lore as a Wandering Spirit, which cuts that off from being a selected hex.
Proposed Changes: Remove Benefit of Wisdom and add a new hex, let the class actually use the Int it gains. Let someone who selects Arcane Enlightenment as a permanent Hex change the spells each day so it isn't "only good as wandering". Change the duration of Brain Drain, Share Knowledge, and Confusion Curse to be based off either INT, WIS, or just level, the Spirit doesn't want CHA dependency when it's already the only one with INT dependency. Replace Share Knowledge or change its duration from minutes to hours. Speaking a language or making better knowledge checks for 1-20 minutes is not enough for a hex in my opinion. The actual spirit abilities are probably fine.
Nature - Friend to Animals makes no sense with the spell list change. Speak With Animals is a joke considering that at level 20, it will still be useless compared to the first level spell version, being stuck with very specific animals. The level 8 ability is quite poor (automatically stabilize and heal 1d4 when knocked unconscious, rarely will that even wake you up). Companion Animal sounds nice, until you realize that it seems as a Wandering Spirit, someone could change the animal daily, and you're stuck with the same one. At least you get your full druid level.
Proposed Changes: Make Friend to Animals allow you to spontaneously cast the Summon Nature's Ally spells. Let Speak to Animals work on larger groups of animals ("reptiles", "fish", "birds" instead of "eagles" - ect). Probably remove or re-work Spirit of Nature. Prevent Wandering Spirit from letting you change your animal companion each time you Wander (the companion form is 'locked' until you gain a new familiar).
Wind - The first of many spirits with the 'never-used' first-level ability to make a melee touch attack as a standard action which scales by 1 damage per two shaman levels & by level 11, shamans have 6th level spells, and will almost never use the weapon enchantments. Unless I'm reading it wrong, Alter Winds is a horrible first-level spell. Vortex Spells require a critical hit with a spell, which almost never happens. Few spells can crit anyway, and those that can generally require a 20. Best case: you made 4 spell attack rolls with a spell, threaten a crit on a 19-20, confirming 75% of crits. This fully-vortex spell build has a 26.7% change to stagger per round. Wind Sight... doesn't actually give sight, only vision. Sparking Aura is utterly unimpressive beyond stopping invisibility, - adding 2, maybe 3 to allied damage rolls for a notable attribute investment which won't scale on a crit isn't very good. None of the spirit abilities stand out. I'm trying to build a wind-based sylph caster, and I just cannot convince myself this spirit does anything for me mechanically.
Proposed Changes: For all those touch attacks, if they could be used at range, or to make attacks of opportunities, or scaled 1-damage to the level, it might be something to work with. As-is, they're horrific. Each of the touch attacks could take a different one of these solutions, or something else, or be replaced entirely, but I'm not happy with their current form. Remove Vortex Spells or make it trigger on a failed saving throw for an air/electricity spell - possibly with its own saving throw if that's too powerful. Let Wind Sight provide vision &/or improve an ability to see through mist/clouds/fog. Also, we need details for Elemental Body to a Lightning Elemental.
Stone - Verging on workable, Metal Curse is okay and Lodestone verges on downright good in some cases. Stone Stability and Ward of Stone are hard to consider good, however (you're unlikely to have high enough Str to trip many opponents, but I appreciate the option). Crystal Sight is hit and miss, many situations it will be useless, especially since they need to declare they're using it, so they can't see surprises on the other side of the wall unless they explicitly expect them. As expressed in Wind, the first spirit ability isn't usable, and the rest aren't very interesting or powerful.
Proposed Changes: Touch attack, see Wind. Give Crystal Sight a (reduced) passive element in addition to the activated one. Perhaps give Stone Stability full-BAB for trip. Reduce the DR granted by Ward of Stone until later levels, but significantly increase the number of instances. As a 1-minute duration, I have to spend an in-combat standard action to use this, and blocking a maximum of 5/10/15 damage at level 1/8/16 which is overcome simply by strong enchantment bonuses isn't worth my time. Let Ward of Stone stack with Body of Earth because it's cool.
These have some stand-out problems that should be addressed, such as poor hexes, but have a redeeming feature to pick them for.
Life - I was going to put this in Poor because usually you can just wait a day Wander if you need to heal attribute damage/ect and not a single hex feels interesting or powerful and the greater spirit ability is a cantrip they already have access to. What pushed this to Workable for me was the ability to use Cure Spells and Channels as a Swift Action with the True Spirit ability, but this is a level 16 ability. If you're starting level 16 or higher and want someone to heal while still doing battlefield control, you might consider a Life Shaman. For 15 levels, this is a Cleric with the augmented druid spell list, a poor fort save and less channels. I'd almost always play an actual Cleric over this for a campaign starting before 15.
Proposed Changes: Remove or re-work Healer’s Touch. Give 2 or 3 + CHA channels, 1 is v. low. Let her end Life Link as an Immediate Action or Free Action. Let her cast Cure spells at range to creatures she is Life Linked to. Enhanced Cures should do something before 6th level, perhaps take a note from the Battle Spirit at give you the ability to Maximise Cure Spells CHA/day times. Increase the duration on Deny Succor to a minute per level. Curse of Suffering is nice not requiring a save, but let the bleed damage scale up at some level. 1hp/round isn't worth looking at twice at mid levels, especially with the limited duration of it.
Waves - Oh, oh, control hexes, control abilities, this fills a lovely mechanical niche and is one of my favourites, but has a couple issues. Crashing Waves requires Water spells that deal damage to be fully effective, and those are basically... snowball, and Flurry of Snowballs. Geyser, eventually. Beckoning Chill then expects you to use cold spells, so Geyser doesn't work unless you're getting a rod of elemental metamagic. Fluid Magic requires you to expect to need a spirit spell twice that day, and to not have it on your spell list already. Of all the touch attacks, this is the most interesting and, while weak, could remain as-is due to at least having utility in some situations (a reposition that doesn't allow a save means pushing people off cliffs!) even the weapon enchant gives a neat save bonus against fire. This is the first spirit I would consider 'truly playable' as-is on this list, but we can do better.
Proposed Changes: Add some more cold-damage Water spells to the book. Maybe add the Water descriptor to some existing spells? Let Fluid Magic allow you to do something else - maybe select any 'water' spells of an appropriate level each day as your spirit spells, instead of just the ones listed. As I said, this is one I'm actually quite happy with and would probably play. Oh, we need stats for Elemental Body into an Ice Elemental.
Battle - The rest of this class doesn't lend itself easily to hitting stuff (only proficient with simple weapons, not full BAB, quite MAD depending on if you want to use Arcane Enlightenment or any ability based off of CHA), but with low-CHA reliance, it might be possible to pull off with Battle. Battle Ward is very strong as-written, but almost certainly an error. Curse of Suffering doesn't feel like it fits. Battle Master is nice, Hampering Hex usable, Eyes of Battle doesn't seem great but ranged fighter might grab it over Hampering Hex, so it's okay. Its first spirit ability is strong and could be considered 'battle' based, but as 'the route to making a hit-things shaman', I think people would rather it contributed more to that. Every other spirit ability feels solid.
Proposed Changes: Change the level 1 spirit ability to burning prepared spells for to-hit/damage, gaining martial weapon proficiency, or something else that lets you hit stuff. Remove or re-work Curse of Suffering. Have Eyes of Battle ignore partial concealment at higher levels. Fix Battle Ward's infinite duration & number of instances. I'd be fine with it lasting forever but only working on one target at a time, or just going to the 1-minute duration of other Wards. Decent spirit, but needs touch-ups to actually make hit-things-shaman work.
Alternatively: Make it 'battle-control' and drop the facade that it enables hit-things-shaman if you don't want to take it that way. Sitting in the middle is just leaving half-achieved dreams.
These are mostly fine as-is and I feel should be what the others are balanced around.
Flame - Blasty Shaman. I'm not a fan of blasters, but for what it is this seems fine. All the hexes seem like something I might happily select. I initially thought Flame Ward was bad, but math-ing it shows it scales acceptably against things without Fire Resist. The spell list is nice (yay fireball). The touch attack has the problems mentioned in Wind and the greater spirit ability isn't inspiring, especially since I have burny things already, but it works.
Proposed Changes: Do something to the touch attack as mentioned in Wind. Remove the Will Save on Fire Nimbus, it's a Standard Action for -2 Saves against Fire Spells and no invisibility, which compared to some others doesn't feel like it warrants a save.
Bones - Necromancers are pretty strong in my experience, and the biggest problem is the social stigma. Bones shamans can actually use their touch attack to heal themselves if they take the Deathly Being hex, which is neat. Fearful Gaze seems usable, Bone Ward lasting for more than one attack makes it probably the best Ward hex. Bone Lock becomes very nice at high levels. I'd probably never get Grave Sight due to other options, but it has some cool applications, so I can't write it off either. Except perhaps her True Spirit ability, nothing stands out at me for this class, which is about the most I can complain about. I would at least consider a Bones Shaman if making a necromancer, and feel it achieves most of what it needs to, at least.
Proposed Changes: Nothing major comes to me, but anything to make it 'more interesting' would help. It feels competent but a bit dull until level 16, having only really Fearful Gaze's upgrade at level 8 keeping my interested.
Heavens - Definitely the strongest primary spirit and one I would most want to play as-is. The Spirit ability and True Spirit ability aren't too inspiring, but neither are bad either. Every hex is something I feel I could use, although I'd probably avoid Starburn simply due to being overshadowed. The spell list is neat. Even the familiar change is the most interesting of all of them. I hadn't mentioned the other familiars because they just felt... dull. It's not something I expect power from, but this one manages to do things interestingly.
Proposed changes: For Stardust, explain that only the penalties don't apply to sightless creatures, they should still shed light. Have a look at the True Spirit ability, perhaps. Otherwise, definitely the strongest spirit.
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Yeah, with Hexes Shamans actually have more options when out of spells than many clerics or druids. Really don't see why you expect damaging level 0 spells.
@ Rory, I don't like that fix. It seems more problematic than it should be. Not only that, but removing the familiar actually puts the class closer to the feared Druid/Oracle hybrid instead of the intended Witch/Oracle mix. You then have another divine caster with no real penalty for their power, like the Oracle. Clerics are balanced out by the alignment restrictions, Druids both by alignment and stringent gear limitations, and Paladins by the addition of their code of conduct. Yet the Oracle doesn't exactly have that balance factor. It has a curse that is just as likely to be weaponized as an advantage, and the limited spell list just means you don't bother taking the spells that have niche utility. The Shaman needs the familiar restriction as a balance, given that the other Divine casters with full spell list access had to have a limiting factor.
Part of my dislike of that fix is because it's based on an assumption that the Mystery Spells mechanic is the same as the Spirit Magic feature. They aren't. Spells from an Oracle Mystery are added onto the class list and can be cast so long as you have slots to cast them. Spirit Magic doesn't add the spell to your prepared list, and can only have one slot for spontaneous casting per spell level. The difference between the two is not a small thing. And by extension, that means that Spirit Magic probably should stay with the niche spell lineup for the spirits.
I think another part of my dislike for the fix is the tone. It seems muddled. You want more variety, but you want more universal stuff that will likely make it extremely generic. With Wandering Spirit, you can actually open some spell options for the Spirit Magic so those situational spells aren't always your last option. The idea of adding more universal choices sounds more like you want only maximum utilitarian options. It's confusing.
@ Rory, I don't like that fix. It seems more problematic than it should be. Not only that, but removing the familiar actually puts the class closer to the feared Druid/Oracle hybrid instead of the intended Witch/Oracle mix. You then have another divine caster with no real penalty for their power, like the Oracle. Clerics are balanced out by the alignment restrictions, Druids both by alignment and stringent gear limitations, and Paladins by the addition of their code of conduct. Yet the Oracle doesn't exactly have that balance factor. It has a curse that is just as likely to be weaponized as an advantage, and the limited spell list just means you don't bother taking the spells that have niche utility. The Shaman needs the familiar restriction as a balance, given that the other Divine casters with full spell list access had to have a limiting factor.
Quick thing, but those alignment and code restrictions aren't a balancing factor, and the curse can actually be very beneficial. They are however flavorful, and they can add to the class, but they aren't a balancing factor.
Battle: I really feel like the initial spirit ability doesn't match the rest of the spirit abilities. If this were the Life Spirit, then I'd have no qualms and it matches theme. However, Shaman doesn't have a lot of things that allow it to hit hard in battle like the Oracle of Battle does. Oracles of Battle (and Oracles of Metal) can become fairly decent front-line fighters given the right mysteries. Sure, there are things at higher levels, but a level 1 out of the gate Shaman of Battle feels like a caster and healer instead of anything involving attacking. She needs something to give her that "Go out and hit someone" feel for low levels.
Perhaps the spirit bond is so strong the spirit familiar doesn't die until its hit points get to negative 2xConstitution.
The Lore Spirit hexes are just silly-MAD.
You need INT to use the spells one hex grants you. Three have duration based on CHA. One replaces INT on skill checks with WIS, and the spirit itself gives bonus INT while all your spells still rely on WIS.
The lore spirit can cry me a big ol' bucket of tiers about how MAD it is. Getting the entire druid list, some of the best spells from the cleric list, the entire sorcerer/wizard list, and a free wish 1/day is a perfectly fair trade-off for having to dump a physical stat.
Getting arcane enlightenment as a wandering hex while keeping the wandering spirit flexible probably makes this the strongest primary spirit, especially at later levels, and certainly when it just hands you free wish spells as a capstone.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The lore spirit can cry me a big ol' bucket of tiers about how MAD it is. Getting the entire druid list, some of the best spells from the cleric list, the entire sorcerer/wizard list, and a free wish 1/day is a perfectly fair trade-off for having to dump a physical stat.
Getting arcane enlightenment as a wandering hex while keeping the wandering spirit flexible probably makes this the strongest primary spirit, especially at later levels, and certainly when it just hands you free wish spells as a capstone.
The thing is, if you're going to use Wandering Hex on gaining the spells, also losing Wandering Spirit that day isn't that big of a loss, since I consider the main draw of the spirits the Hexes anyway, it really feels like they have the same spell list as any other Shaman come 6th level.
I ignore capstones. They basically never enter actual play, and can be balanced separately for all I care.
It's pretty much a moot point, since the main difference between Lore (Heavens) and Heavens (Lore) is going to be the capstone, which I agree won't come into play that often, and there's really not much reason to ever go with anything other than those two. I'd just still tentatively go Lore (Heavens) so that I can switch out Heavens if I somehow end up in a situation where one of the other spirits is more useful. A lot of the Heavens spirit's spells are going to be dead weight if you're going up against enemies with immunity to mind-affecting spells.
I think you're really overestimating hexes and underestimating spirit abilities and spirit spells, too.
I'm sticking to my first suggestion: Get rid of the idea of "main" spirits, make all of them wandering. Let the Shaman pick new hexes each day, and gain more spirits at once as they level up. It'll be much easier to rebalance the spirits under these assumptions.
(Also, it's the closest thing we'll ever get to an official version of the Binder...)
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Not a fan of the druid list, of all shamans in the world only animists had any real connection to nature as opposed to spirits... and you could take the nature spirit for that.
I'd support it for the sake of having another full caster druidlister.... but completely ruining the flavor of a class seems a bit a high a price.
mechanically, it still plays a lot like the previous tests, and sadly most "hex's" are not at all that. I'd like more cursing, less buffing.
Also I'd like to see clarification on improved familiar and other familiar feats.
My suggestion for the spell list would be to eather A) have a shaman at level 1 pick a spell list or B) have a shaman Pick 10+Wis spells from the witch Druid AND cleric list each time they gain a new spell level and make that a set list they cannot add to except by spirits
also i would like them to have a pool of CORE hexes cherry picked from the witch hex list that ALL shamans can pick
Okay, using the term "Hex" for a class ability only affects 2 feats (Accursed Hex and Extra Hex) and one spell (Hex Ward) and even those are a bit sketchy.
There are a couple other feats, but it is questionable whether or not Shaman qualifies for them since they list a witch level as a pre-req.
Other than the use of the word "Hex" and the familiar mechanic, there isn't anything really Witchy about this class. It's always been more like a prepared Oracle with a familiar. Now, with the Druid list, it's a Druid/Oracle with a familiar.
There's a lot about this class that is really cool thematically, but forcing Witch onto it as one of its base class concepts is rather... awkward. However, the Shaman hexes feel much more like Mystery Revelations than Hexes.
Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
Of all the classes in the playtest, I feel like this one probably still needs the most work (or close to it). There is certainly not enough witch in the class as it currently stands and the spell list still does not sit right with me. There are also a fair number of problems with the spirits that need to be addressed.
Keep up the good comments folks... we are listening.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Yeah, I'm not sure how useful extra hex and accursed hex would be, as the hexes stand. Each spirit has a pretty limited hex list and at least one hex is basically non-functional. I'm on my phone, so I can't check, but would accursed hex apply to anything but confusion curse and the jester's jaunt[/i]-type Heavens hex?
I like Craft Cheese's suggestion a lot, it helps the Shaman feel more unique and really emphasizes the idea of communing with spirits. Also, in a class whose most serious mechanical problems stem from oversights, having all spirits be wandering spirits is one less variable to consider; it won't fix the balance issues on its own, but the streamlining makes them easier to solve.
I'd really rather this thread not get as hung up on the meaning of the term "Shaman" as the last thread did. Aside from the fact that its meaning is hardly universally agreed upon even within any given discourse (as the last thread should have demonstrated) the shaman isn't really going to end up less "factually accurate" than, say, the alchemist. It's fine if you don't like the druid list because that's just not how you want the class to play, but can we leave out the stuff about it not being a "real shaman" if it has or lacks some feature.
Hey there folks,
Of all the classes in the playtest, I feel like this one probably still needs the most work (or close to it). There is certainly not enough witch in the class as it currently stands and the spell list still does not sit right with me. There are also a fair number of problems with the spirits that need to be addressed.
Keep up the good comments folks... we are listening.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
What aspects of the spell list are you looking for feedback on?
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Lead Designer
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What aspects of the spell list are you looking for feedback on?
Its not really something I can crowd-source. Basing it off druid just does not feel right, despite the fact that it is a reasonable fit for the theme. I am still mulling it over, weighing options.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Fair enough. I was more thinking in terms of playtest data in the form of "If I had this <spell list or spel>, would I have been more effective and have more fun in situation <Y>?"
But I can see how revealing that sort of thing would lead to lots of people trying to crowdsource.
As we always do.
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There aren't really a whole lot of spell list focused on spirit out there. The Occult mystery introduced in the Baba Yaga AP attempted to do that and had some interesting bonus spells overall:
unseen servant (2nd), spectral hand (4th), clairaudience/clairvoyance (6th), scrying (8th), contact other plane (10th), project image (12th), vision (14th), moment of prescience (16th), astral projection (18th).
These spells are okay, not great but does feel like a certain connection to the spirits.
The Witch Spell list is a little too bare bone in my opinion but does have some very fitting spells for someone in connection with the spirits if you don't want to go with the elemental/nature kind of shaman.
You may consider changing the Heavens Spirit Manifest ability:
The all-saving-throw bonus should use the Shaman's PRIMARY stat of Wisdom. It looks like the use of Charisma is an artifact of copy/pasting the Heavens Mystery final revelation.Manifest: Upon reach 20th level, the shaman becomes
the spirit of heaven. She receives a bonus on all saving
throws equal to her Charisma modifier. She automatically
stabilizes if she is brought to below 0 hit points. She is
immune to fear effects and she automatically confirms
all critical hits that she threatens. Should she die, she is
reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures
over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).
I am hoping that was a typo also, and as a witch/oracle mashup it might needs its own spell list to give it the proper feel.
OK, having had time to go through the class in detail....I still don't feel any less disappointed.
There is very little about this class that feels like a shaman.
As other have noted...it feels like an Oracle/Druid hybrid.
As it stands, the only abilities that have anything to do with a shaman are spirit and wandering spirit.
I'm not sure that the solution is trying to make it feel more "witchy" either, as the main thing shamans and witches have in common is communing with spirits....
To that end I would much rather see them take some of the patron themes (for example fate, occult, trickery, etc)...and flesh them out as spirits rather than just copying oracle revelations which don't feel the least bit like a shaman.
Even the oracle mysteries that do feel like they fit the concept of a shaman...for example the ancestors mystery, should be re-worked so that they are completely different from the oracle mystery.
I understand that the idea here is a hybrid between two existing class's...but I had REALLY hoped that we would see the same kind of thing occur with the shaman, that we saw with the arcanist....
Namely that the two classes would act as a jumping off point for something interesting and unique.
The familiar is still a senseless eye sore in the class, that has nothing to do with a shaman.
The switch to the Druid spell list more or less cripples the shaman ....If anything they should have retained the cleric list and bolstered it with a few Druid spells.
There are no class features common to the idea of a shaman, like ability to see and detect spirits (for example the Menhir savants spirit sight)....
battle spirits (abilities like ghost touch, or abilities to by-pass defenses of undead, outsiders, fey)....
And no abilities that allow them to counter and combat witches, possession, and other "evil" magics.
I guess we will see where the class has gone next august (I'm assuming there will be no more updates)....
but right now it's gone from the concept I was the most excited about to my least.
And it fits with the theme of hybrid classes, and it gives us a "divine arcanist."
which really fits with it being a druid/oracle--wait, it's a witch/oracle? that arcane caster with actual hexes, not just renamed revelations?
huh.
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What aspects of the spell list are you looking for feedback on?Its not really something I can crowd-source. Basing it off druid just does not feel right, despite the fact that it is a reasonable fit for the theme. I am still mulling it over, weighing options.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
The spell list is actually my favorite thing about the Shaman, and I would strongly recommend against changing it.
Druid is a class that has a lot of baggage - special abilities that you have to take that aren't necessarily related to each other. Having the Druid spell list available on an additional class that doesn't have that baggage fills a very large niche in my character design options.