Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Brawler. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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Hrm. I really really really wanna like this class.
I like the fact that Knockout is moved up to a playable level.
I really like Improved Awesome Blow.
Martial Maneuvers is still neat...but still too limited in uses IMO for the benefit/duration it gives.
But there's still nothing there that really says "I want to build this guy". It doesn't really get anything unique besides those three things, and two of them come at near campaign's end or beyond.
I'm still not seeing why I should make a Brawler instead of a Fighter/Monk for the most part.
I'm with Rynjin. A lot of it to me feels like the "OH MY, MY ENDGAME WILL BE AWESOME", but the issue lies in that so few people reach endgame to truly appreciate it. I know a lot of people have issues with Quadratic Wizards, but I feel like the first time this is a Quadratic Fighter. Moreso than any other fighter based class, this guy ramps up really really hard in later levels, essentially hitting his stride around level 13. At earlier levels he has a bunch of the weaknesses of monks, but very few of the benefits of being a fighter.
I play tested a brawler yesterday. It was the old version, but the point I'm going to make is still valid.
Martial Maneuvers is too limited.
I've thought about how to address this. My first thought was simply "Extra Martial Maneuvers" feat giving 2 additional uses. But, these melee builds don't tend to have feats to throw at that kind of stuff until too late in the game. Then I thought about just a set 2 + half level, but that seemed arbitrary. Then I thought about Int + half level (INT because it's about fighting ability and tactic, but you could do WIS to retain Monk heritage. INT would also allow synergy with Combat Ex). But that would allow a character to essentially buy more uses of the ability. So in the end I think the 2+half level is the best compromise. You save a feat and it avoids abuse and is a just right number of uses.
Also, if the swashbuckler can use Cha to qualify for Combat Ex, the Brawler needs a "cheat" too, at least as much as the swash did.
Initial Thoughts:
Brawler's Flurry needs language that notes that it counts as Flurry of Blows for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats and prestige classes.
As written, you can't take Feral Combat Training as a brawler, which is unfortunate. If anyone should be able to make a Flurry of Blows with tooth and claw, its a brawler.
So far I'm not really liking the Brawler. Martial Training is a limited mechanic that isn't particularly interesting, and nothing else that the Brawler receives makes this class feel exciting (unlike, say, arcanist), but it is also the poster child for a true "hybrid;" it does a great job of actually mixing existing fighter and monk mechanics together.
It just turns out that the end result of doing so is somewhat boring.
EDIT: Including upgrades to Brawler's Flurry in the table is in poor taste. Flurry of Blows does not indicate in its table when it upgraded to Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. As written, it very much looks like you are trying to hide the lack of content for the brawler in later levels by saying, "No, look! You get something new! Really!" If those levels feel empty, design something to go there. Gods knows the monk gets a truckload of random situational abilities at high levels.
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I agree with the idea of "cheating" combat expertise, but I would go further to say that they should also get a cheat to combat maneuver feats with an Int requirement.
Tying Martial Maneuvers to an ability score would be great.
As written, you can't take Feral Combat Training as a brawler, which is unfortunate. If anyone should be able to make a Flurry of Blows with tooth and claw, its a brawler.
Brawlers still can take FCT, and I believe that natural weapons are already close weapons. I do agree that they should get the ability to use flurry as FOB for feats and PrCs though.
I like the changes, but I am still disappointed, as others have said, about the limited uses of martial maneuvers. IMO it is the defining feature of the class, and could make for a very interesting mechanic, but it needs to be able to be used.
I have to say that the Brawler was the class I was most excited about, both originally and in terms of seeing the changes in this revision. I like martial characters and I like to have options in combat, moreso than just I hit and you take X-damage. I thought this was going to provide me with a versatile style of play for a cool martial character. I just don't see myself using one as is, almost solely because of the lack of martial maneuver uses per day. Much better, and more fun, to level dip into maneuver master and just go straight fighter, honestly.
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Okay so here's a question that's been itching at me for little bit.
Why does the SWASHBUCKLER get to use a different stat to meet Int prereqs for combat maneuvers...but not the class that is semi-based around combat maneuvers?
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Okay ... So looking at the class, I'm pretty happy overall.
But the one big thing that I was looking for, I don't really see. I'm glad Knockout is usable earlier. And I'm thrilled that close weapons got added. ... And I'm okay with the other changes for the most part.
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But, I just simply do not understand the idea that a trained boxer can hit you with his bare knuckles and then put on a pair of brass knuckles and have it hurt less. I'm simply confounded by it.
I hope someone can tell me that I've simply missed it, and it's in there. Right?
Apparently you don't need magic to make your fists punch like a Greatsword, but you need divine intervention to make a Longsword or other weapon do the same.
Speaking of, does it feel like the Revised classes are stealing abilities from the proposed changes to the Brawler all over the place, or is it just me...
As it is, I like the class. The loss of Evasion still sucks, but that's what Rings of Evasion are for. But I hope Paizo comes up with at least one (hopefully more) items which can help make Unarmed Strikes as good for the Brawler (and the Monk) as using a weapon is for other classes. It's necessary to have the class keep up with the combat game after the first levels.
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But, I just simply do not understand the idea that a trained boxer can hit you with his bare knuckles and then put on a pair of brass knuckles and have it hurt less. I'm simply confounded by it.
I hope someone can tell me that I've simply missed it, and it's in there. Right?
Let me ask you this: what is it that you want?
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Let me ask you this: what is it that you want?But, I just simply do not understand the idea that a trained boxer can hit you with his bare knuckles and then put on a pair of brass knuckles and have it hurt less. I'm simply confounded by it.
I hope someone can tell me that I've simply missed it, and it's in there. Right?
Close Weapon damage scaling with his unarmed strike is what it sounds like.
Tbh, I was somewhat hoping for it as well. I'd even take a reduced scaling on the Unarmed Strike Damage for a Clustered Shots esque method of getting through DR. Preferably only during a flurry.
Let me ask you this: what is it that you want?But, I just simply do not understand the idea that a trained boxer can hit you with his bare knuckles and then put on a pair of brass knuckles and have it hurt less. I'm simply confounded by it.
I hope someone can tell me that I've simply missed it, and it's in there. Right?Close Weapon damage scaling with his unarmed strike is what it sounds like.
Tbh, I was somewhat hoping for it as well. I'd even take a reduced scaling on the Unarmed Strike Damage for a Clustered Shots esque method of getting through DR. Preferably only during a flurry.
Well, it is a thing many people wanted for the Monk for many years and now the Warpriest gets it. ^^
If the options in the book include something which finally makes Unarmed Strikes as good as weapon attacks, it may not even be necessary.
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Gotta be honest, I'm still a bit underwhelmed about Brawler Strike. Its not like its a bad ability, but you have a person who abandoned the monastic style of a monk to become a true master of getting close and punching things to death, who has supernaturally magical fists that are inherently supernaturally magical through his non-mysticism. I mean, I get the fact that you can reflavor your character, but I was hoping that it might be Ex instead of Su at least or they'd get a different ability.
That said, I love the class overall both before and after the revision. Really do.
New revision impressions!
Pros:
-Better action economy on Martial Maneuvers!
-Close weapon group added to proficiencies/flurry.
Cons:
-Brawler Strike is still a really oddly-flavoured ability. I would much rather see it cut for something more interesting as opposed to just copy-pasting the Monk's DR passing ability.
-Still needs more uses of Martial Maneuvers. 1/day for the first two levels of a Brawler's life is dull.
-There's a bunch of uninteresting levels in the higher-end of a Brawler, but I guess that's inherited from a Fighter.
Actually, to expand that last point: as other people have pointed out, the Brawler is just lacking in flavour a little. It's a fighter with some flexibility and the ability to punch things good. Although I love the Martial Maneuvers ability, it's not enough to carry a character concept, as it's mostly a mechanically awesome thing. The Brawler needs more individual flavour abilities that set it apart from a regular Fighter/Monk.
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Did I miss anything or are the only changes the later level abilities and the weapon proficiencies?
Martial Maneuvers is still way too limited in terms of uses per day.
I think the class should get Knowledge (Local) instead of Knowledge (History).
Agreed with Rynjin that it needs a way to get around Combat Expertise feat tax.
after all the lawful controlled monks fist fighting, I want mechanics for Showboating, and a sort of building rage type mechanic, like a battle fever as they get more and more into the fight lol.
but maybe that's just me ^_^
I honestly would like to see something along the lines of the Brawler getting something like their unarmed strike damage instead of the base damage of weapons in the close weapons group. I think that would help the extreme focus on a melee build such as this. From what it seems it has no support for a ranged character build and with classes like the new war-priest that can increase the base damage on any weapon this kind of ability would not be too powerful in my opinion.
Dot
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I've played a 15th Level Brawler in two long sessions of Shattered Star (last book), and I've been very underwhelmed by the class. My misgivings entirely revolve around Martial Maneuvers. Everything else has been ok to great. Keep in mind that I'm not new to this. I've been playing D&D (or its descendants) continuously over 30 years, and I've been playing Pathfinder continuously since it's Beta days.
I really, truly and honestly feel that Martial Maneuvers needs a complete re-write. As currently written, the ability is so so at low levels and useless at high levels.
I see the Brawler as the epitome of improvisation and opportunism in close combat. One moment they are tossing a guy across the room, the next they disarm some goon trying to swing a sword at their head, then go on to smack all the guys surrounding them, and so on. Sometimes they simply pound on an opponent.
I've thought long and hard about this, and I know I'm not a designer, but I think it's best I make a suggestion rather than simply complaining. If nothing else, you can see where I'm headed.
I would change Martial Maneuvers to be a much more fluid ability:
Uses per day = 1 per level + the sum of the Brawler's INT and DEX modifiers. Power level is tricky. I lean towards 2 uses per day per level, but I think 1 per level is workable. Another option is to go to 2 uses per level per day, but get rid of the extra uses from INT and DEX. I like the extra uses from INT and DEX because that gives a low level Brawler more uses in relation to their level. One concern is avoiding making the Brawler the "must-dip" class. Not sure how to address this, but maybe limit the Martial Maneuver effects to unarmed, close weapon and monk weapon groups?
Action To Use: NONE. A Brawler can activate a use at any time during their turn or even when its not their turn, and can make use of the full number of feats (1,2,3) available to him/her. It is not an action. However, a Brawler can only use Martial Maneuvers once per cycle (from the beginning of their turn to the start of their next turn, sort of like the way an AOO is treated assuming no combat reflexes). I would go as far as allowing a use of the ability in response to another person's action, but the use must be declared before the other person's action is resolved. So, for example, if someone attacked a Brawler, the Brawler could declare a use that gave Crane Wing, and if the attack hits, then use the Crane Wing (if the attack missed, then too bad). For Martial Styles, the use of the ability would include switching to the style (which normally takes a swift action). So if you decided to use Monkey Style, you are in Monkey Style immediately, and do not need to also take a swift action to switch to Monkey Style. The Brawler would still be limited to one style unless they possess the ability to have two or more styles active at the same time. Also, a Brawler can continue a maneuver from turn to turn by simply expending one use at the start of each turn.
Duration: The use lasts until the start of the Brawlers next turn. The reason I boost the number of uses per day from 1 per 2 levels is that each use would only be 1 round or less. I like this because it makes this a "Maneuver", not a special ability that gets activated and lasts for awhile.
FEATS: Same criteria as before. As to the number of feats, that's a power-level issue. 1 Feat at level 1, 2 at level 6 and 3 at level 10 seem fine, but this could be adjusted.
This would make Martial Maneuvers fluid and dynamic, and useful at level 1 while still being useful at level 10+. The Brawler would become exciting and fun to play, and be unlike any other class (unique in its own right). One concern would be slowing down play, but since this is for "Advanced" players and you can put together a cheat sheet, I think it's workable.
The rest of the Brawler, is either good, ok or I can live with it. But Martial Maneuvers as currently written makes the class (for me) irrelevant and something I can't say I'd ever run again.
I would like to add that although I've only play-tested the Brawler and Arcanist, I've casually looked over all the other new classes and generally like what I see (except for the War Priest whose deficiencies I think have been hashed over in great detail by others). The designers did a good job and the revisions are largely cleaning up the rough spots. I look forward to picking up the ACG when it comes out.
Zoom, I think that would be a great rewrite of the ability
I really like this class and have no real issues with it.
after all the lawful controlled monks fist fighting, I want mechanics for Showboating,
This. So much this. Some sort of abilities based around gladiator style taunting and performances. Trash talking and posturing.
-j
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I still see two problems with the class. One its Martial maneuvers is the meat and potatos of the class and it stops improving at level 12. I actually think its number of uses is fine <If i get a more maneuvers feat at least> and its duration isn't awful.. What i would like for it to do is continue to improve its action economy as it levels up and from the get go allow it to ignore attribute minimums on the feats that it can grab that way at least for a limited amount of time i can play an idiot who can still knock a person down or get rid of their weapon.
The other is I'm pretty sure number crunching will show unarmed combat is still a trap damage wise like it is with the monk. I dont need to keep match with the two handed fighter per se but since as written I'm not a tank I'd like to get just a bit more oomph from my bare hands.
Honestly if either one of those issues is fixed the class will be fine.
I love the Brawler, I think it is a great idea and the layout looks nice. If I had to say anything I would say this. I wish that the Brawler added his unarmed damage when using his listed proficient weapons. A way of boosting the classes damage.
Brawlers shows some good improvements here. I still think it has lots of potential. However, I still have 2 problems with it.
1- Brawler has no real access to Improved Maneuver feats, thanks to the steep prerequisites of those feats.
Solution: Allow Brawlers to take those feats without fulfilling the prerequisites, or at least allow Martial Maneuvers to ignore prerequisites for Maneuver feats.
2- At higher levels, losing a move action is really painful for any martial class. Make it so that at some point Martial Maneuvers scales into being usable with a swift action. Preferably not at a point where it's too late to matter. 7th~9th level seems like the ideal spot, IMHO.
Martial Maneuvers currently moves to a Free at 10th and a Swift at 6th already. For one Feat anyway. At 10th you can get up to three with a Free, a Swift, and a Move. I like the action economy of it at that point, it's the number of usages I have an issue with, and the duration.
I still think that if you're going to add a badass ability like that, build the whole class around it. Especially since this class is "Flavor Redundant" at best. Moving to make it the on the fly, adaptable, "Fighter Savant" class by making Martial Maneuvers the focus would go a long way towards fixing that. If they lasted longer (1 minute/level to start, 10 min/level after 10th, and hour/level at 20th?) or had more uses (at least one/level) it'd be great.
As-is it's just a tiny add-on to a pretty meh class.
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I largely like like the brawler overall. Still a couple things I'm disapoint about.
Maneuver Training: if nothing else would like the option to take weapon training in unarmed or close weapons instead of combat maneuvers.
Close Weapons scaling with unarmed damage: no offence SKR, but asking 'what is it you want' is kinda silly considering how many times it came up in the old thread.
Brawler's Flurry: I'd go the opposite of Alexander's suggestion, I think brawler's flurry should be simplified to just counting as TWF and it's path for the purpose of prereqs. It may be munchkiny, but if I were to take two weapon defense, it'd be simpler if I always had the bomus instead of only following a full round action.
Brawler's Strike: call me stubborn, I still like the idea of brawlers using fist weapons to bypass dr instead of having ki strike envy. To me it just fits their fighter heritage to have some connection to weapons. I'll say it again for the record, I suggest swapping Brawler's strike for weapon training at each level they would have gained a new type of dr bypass. The weapon training is in a single weapon they're proficcient in or their unarmed strike, and has the additional rule that weapons they're trained in scale with unarmed damage.
Ignorant Question Time:
Where do I find the REVISED Brawler?
Is it Listed Somewhere on the Paizo Site?
Thanks :)
Duration: The use lasts until the start of the Brawlers next turn. The reason I boost the number of uses per day from 1 per 2 levels is that each use would only be 1 round or less. I like this because it makes this a "Maneuver", not a special ability that gets activated and lasts for awhile.
One of the things that does bother me is using my full ability takes more uses. When an inquisitor gets a 2nd Judgement it doesn't burn throughout hem twice as fast.
I can see this being a good core mechanic for the class. Usable 2+WIS/int times per day and then 1 additional time per day each level. 2/day would be A LOT of uses by level 10+. I don't know about no action. A brawler isn't really hurting for swift/immediate actions anyway. I think immediate would be fine. Although action none, but once per round, would allow you to pick up feats that themselves use swift actions (STYLE feats, binding throw, so on). Maybe a compromise where it takes a swift action but allows you to combine the use of the feat gained as part of that?
I fear it's too late in the game for such a big change. But it would go a long way towards flavoring the brawler as the quintessential "think on their feet" combatant.
Too many of the "improved" feats have a an ability score requirement to easily fix those requirements. I'm wondering if, rather than just getting a fighter's bonus feats, it should get a monk's, with the option of instead taking a combat feat for which you qualify.
If I play a brawler, I'm wearing masterwork studded leather for a good deal of my career, aren't I?
Many of the special abilities are surprisingly weapon friendly, like Knockout and Awesome Blow. Given the cost to added damage ration of unarmed versus armed options, my dream of playing a vicious cestus-wielding brawler seems alive and well.
It's not a very sexy class, but it seems to effortlessly succeeding on a lot of levels the other hybrids aren't. But it has a low Will and no bravery, and so is a class of secret cowards.
thanks Reverendfresh :)
Martial Maneuvers currently moves to a Free at 10th and a Swift at 6th already. For one Feat anyway. At 10th you can get up to three with a Free, a Swift, and a Move. I like the action economy of it at that point, it's the number of usages I have an issue with, and the duration.
I somehow missed that... oO. I definitely need some sleep...
That said, Brawlers having an easier access to maneuver feats would be fitting, flavorful, balanced and badass. :)
I still think that if you're going to add a badass ability like that, build the whole class around it. Especially since this class is "Flavor Redundant" at best. Moving to make it the on the fly, adaptable, "Fighter Savant" class by making Martial Maneuvers the focus would go a long way towards fixing that. If they lasted longer (1 minute/level to start, 10 min/level after 10th, and hour/level at 20th?) or had more uses (at least one/level) it'd be great.
As-is it's just a tiny add-on to a pretty meh class.
1 minute per level should be good enough, IMO. It'd last a whole battle or two. That should suffice. I agree that it could use a few more uses per day, though.
I think Improved Awesome Blow needs some clarification, as it stands, it's not worded very well.
Improved Awesome Blow (Ex): At 20th level, the brawler can use her awesome blow ability as an attack, rather than as a standard action. She may use it on creatures of any size, but takes a –5 penalty for each size category the opponent is larger than her. If the maneuver is successful, the brawler can immediately attempt to confirm the maneuver by rolling another awesome blow combat maneuver with all the same modifiers as the one just rolled; if the confirmation roll is successful, the attack deals double damage, and the damage from hitting an obstacle (if any) is doubled.
When it says you can use it as an attack, does that mean it operates similar to a wolf getting a free trip attempt on bites? Or that the Brawler has to declare his attacks to be awesome blows, potentially making a 'flurry of blows'? (see what I did there?)
If it operates similar to a wolf, I can understand the 'confirm the maneuver' as it's essentially a free maneuver on every attack. If, instead, the brawler can substitute Awesome Blow maneuvers for attack rolls (like with trip, disarm or sunder) then I'm not sure why he has to roll twice to succeed. It makes things like natural 20's on Awesome almost meaningless, because he has to roll twice to actually confirm the maneuver.
What I'd like to see, is the Brawler able to make a 'flurry of blows' which allows him to make a series of maneuvers, and add them all together before determining the distance and damage dealt.
For instance, the Brawler makes 5 attacks at 20th level, and hits with 3 of them. The enemy takes 3x weapon or unarmed strike damage, flies back 30 ft. in the direction of the brawler's choice, and if he hits something before flying the full distance, he takes 1d6 points of damage for every 10 ft. the enemy didn't travel. For example, he flies 10 ft. and hits a wall, and takes 2d6 points of damage, if he flies back 25 ft. and hits something, he takes 1d6 points of damage, and if he flies back 5 ft. and hits something, he takes the full 3d6 points of damage.
This would allow Brawlers to rapidly send a group of mooks flying, clearing the path for someone else to charge, or, make a series of attacks against a powerful enemy, that slams them into a wall.
I also have to second the notion that Martial Maneuvers needs to, inherently, have more uses per day.
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I really do not understand why Martial Maneuvers needs to be an action greater than Swift. It doesn't feel like the Brawler is adaptable when he has to spend an action sitting there and thinking and really screws with the flow of the character. I understand that this might potentially have power level concerns...but it feels like, in their current state, Martial Maneuvers is wasted potential.
Alternatively, have the Brawler have a list of "pre-set" feats that they can shift to as a swift action and have a switch to feats outside of that list as a greater action.
Considering it normally takes a week to retrain a feat, I think a move action is a pretty sweet deal.
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Anyone who comes to the game with a brawler without a pre-set list of feats written out for quick access is doing it wrong. If someone could not provide the rules text within a reasonable period of time I will simply have them delay until they know what they want to do.
The same, incidentally, applies for ANYONE. If a summoner or conjurer came to the table without stats for their monsters and expected me to wait while they calculated the stats for their augmented fiendish giant dire platypus, they'd get a couple of minutes before I'd skip to the next person. If a druid is digging through four bestiaries looking for the perfect animal to wildshape into, I'd skip to the next person.
I expect players playing complicated classes (i.e., basically all spellcasters) to have a pretty decent grasp of what their class abilities do, and to take the initiative in having things prepared for odd situations.
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Considering it normally takes a week to retrain a feat, I think a move action is a pretty sweet deal.Not really, if you're attempting in-combat switching. It's the difference between impossible at a week to impractical at a move action.
Impractical is still a stretch. You honestly mean to tell me you think reducing yourself to a standard action for one turn is too much of a price to pay for magically swapping a feat? No offense man, but that kind of mentality is the reason game designers think players are unpleasable.
Impractical is still a stretch. You honestly mean to tell me you think reducing yourself to a standard action for one turn is too much of a price to pay for magically swapping a feat? No offense man, but that kind of mentality is the reason game designers think players are unpleasable.Considering it normally takes a week to retrain a feat, I think a move action is a pretty sweet deal.Not really, if you're attempting in-combat switching. It's the difference between impossible at a week to impractical at a move action.
At high levels its somewhat of a problem. The high paced nature of that area tends to make any kind of power up time look really bad.
My problem is if I use it at high levels, I'll only get one or two feats at a time making the 3 feat option rather redundant unless I can set it immediately prior to a combat.
Also, Where meh fuse styles at? I hope theres an archetype for it =P