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Me suggest three things.
Many arcanists are seen as reckless, more concerned with the power of magic than the ramifications of that unleashing such power.
One. Where this reckless? Need more reckless.
Maybe opt use Consume Spells get extra pool points but entire pool now unstable for one hour. Reckless arcanist be lucky or when use pool see wonky fun!
Maybe some Exploits tap primal wild random magic of haphazard good times.
Maybe class ability Don't Tell Me The Odds allows Wisdom -1 (until rested next morning) for Charisma +1 (last 1 min, no stack).
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned.
Two. Where retraining? More fun if PC evolves not just adds.
Need some Exploits fun at low level but outgrow at high level.
Each time the gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level does not restore grit.
Three. All those touch attacks. Where critical do something?
Maybe critcal add extra one pool point but entire pool now unstable. Heh heh.
Maybe critical grant random one-use Exploit from special list but must try it see what does. Heh heh.
Maybe critical cast appropriate level Summon Monster spell but uncontrolled. Heh heh.
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More to the point here is neither the time nor place for it.
Really the time was when a young Monte Cook was sitting down with a type writer and building a successor to AD&D....
That really would've been a great time. Instead Cook got fired nearly a decade too late, sadly. Shame someone wasn't running better damage control.
Frankly, though? A playtest is the perfect time to be talking design and balance. What other time is it appropriate? After shipping? Little late then, I'd think.
You're not playtesting. You're letting loose a tirade about assumptions built into a game that are old enough to legally drive a car.
You want to let loose about how you hated 3.0 caster design? Wait for them to fundamentally change the system where they aren't shackled by a heavy handed call for backwards compatibility. A book where they are looking to expand available options is not the time to repeat the same angry rant I see literally everyday in general discussion.
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When the question is which to use as a balance point for full arcane casters you bet your little red wagon it's the time and place for it. You can't discuss the balance of a new class if you can't agree on what par is.More to the point here is neither the time nor place for it.
Really the time was when a young Monte Cook was sitting down with a type writer and building a successor to AD&D....
The trouble is no one can agree on what par is.
See; every caster/martial disparity thread ever.
3.5 had examples of doing casters right - Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage. Pathfinder could be learning from those examples and Arcanist is an opportunity to do so - as are the other proposed spellcasters in this playtest. No, this isn't the chance for them to change Wiz/Clr/Drd. Yes, this is a chance to Get It Right this time around and create a balanced, interesting, thematic concept. I'll let loose with whatever I like, thank'ee kindly.
Bloodlines are so bad for casters that eldritch heritage is more popular with fighters and barbarians than witches and wizards.
hate to pick apart the whol epost for one line, but dude, there's bloodlines for everybody.
-arcane is great for folks who like metamagics and more spells (also good for "theurge-like" oracles (arcane loremaster AT, lore mytery, etc.)),-the elementals are good for adding some oomph to blasting,
-draconic is great to shore up your defenses, as well as some utility powers (claws, flight, etc.),
-shadow is great if you plan on scouting/having to sneak around a lot,
-fey is helpful for some boosts to enchantments and such, etc.
i mean, i know some folks like abyssal and orc for the strenght boosts (and other things), but they arent the sum of the bloodlines.
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Frankly, though? A playtest is the perfect time to be talking design and balance. What other time is it appropriate? After shipping? Little late then, I'd think.
It's really not. You're basically arguing that the A-bomb shouldn't look pretty. The bomb is built and there's nothing we can do about it now. Why not at least make it aesthetically pleasing if we're going to get killed by it either way?
Pathfinder (because it is based in 3rd edition D&D) is deeply flawed, especially in the caster/martial balance department. It is. Now what? Here are your choices, the same ones I am faced with:
1) Play another game instead
2) Play this one despite it's problems and try to make the best of it
3) Make a weird stand on the issue half a decade too late
You're choosing #3 for some reason and I don't know why. I do #1 when I can, and #2 when I can't. You're fighting against a basic principle the game is built upon to complain about the 30 somethingth class to see print? What's the point now? Nobody at Paizo is going to be like, "Oh, man, our game made lots of money for like 6 or 7 years, but this one guy pointed out how unfair the system is when we were playtesting the Arcanist--we should reinvent everything now!"
Trust me, I wish they would, but, I mean, come on, that won't happen.
Arcanist is actually interesting and cool. It's unfair, just like all full casters, but, Full Casters already exist, so adding one that's interesting and cool won't hurt the overall game balance in any way, but it will help make it more palatable to play full casters for those who are otherwise not inclined to enjoy them (and, once again, they shut down other casters, which actually does reduce the power of magic in the world). Seems like a win-win.
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Warmage? Warmage got it right? 0.o
<head asplode>
3.5 had examples of doing casters right - Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage.
They were only right if you only had those classes. The problem here is that if Paizo released all three of those, there would still be Druids, Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, etc.
So, you'd have this problem where the people who know what they're doing, the one's who make magical disparity problematic in the first place, will avoid the obviously weaker classes and play Wizard/Sorcerer/etc., while those who don't care about power or who don't know what makes something powerful (who will never see why magic is so unfair) end up playing the cool, flavorful things like Beguiler, and they are penalized again because they not only don't know what they're doing but also got suckered into playing a weaker class to begin with.
Those classes help nobody unless you remove or ban the original 9 level casters, and if you are wiling to houserule like that, then, uh, duh--just houserule in those three classes since the main problem with Pathfinder is that it had to remain backwards compatible to 3.5!
Those classes help nobody unless you remove or ban the original 9 level casters, and if you are wiling to houserule like that, then, uh, duh--just houserule in those three classes since the main problem with Pathfinder is that it had to remain backwards compatible to 3.5!
Your results may vary.
Warmage? Warmage got it right? 0.o
<head asplode>
Now I've gotta know why this got said. PM box is open, my friend, would love to hear why this was your reaction.
Now I've gotta know why this got said. PM box is open, my friend, would love to hear why this was your reaction.Warmage? Warmage got it right? 0.o
<head asplode>
Takes a bit of system mastery to use the darn thing. It opens up by saying its great at making things explode. Handbook says that its great at dipping and using utility. Might be a bit of a disconnect.
Now I've gotta know why this got said. PM box is open, my friend, would love to hear why this was your reaction.Warmage? Warmage got it right? 0.o
<head asplode>
Just a couple pages back you were talking about batman wizards and such, and how inefficient doing hit point damage is, then you turn around and say that the blastiest caster in 3.5 was one of the casting classes that got it right.
It boggles the mind.
After running through some encounters with a third level and an 11th level arcanist (both focused on evocation and necromancy), here's some preliminary findings from me-
Low level, this guy needs something for it. The blast exploits, excluding the fire one, are actively worse than -ray of frost- a large amount of the time. Even putting the saving throw only on the effect instead of damage doesn't help; however, adding caster level to damage does seem too.
Middlish levels, this guy is fantastic fun. I carried a wand of cure moderate wounds around for self healing/consumption and focused on using Reach Vampiric Touch and Intensified (Potent Magic boosted) Fireballs. He made a solid blaster and while I felt like I had to be careful and rely on my low level spells a fair bit more than as a different casting class, I never had one of those 'crap, they made their saving throw' moments when I really needed a spell to land.
Overall, if the blast exploits are changed slightly to facilitate their use at low levels, I think this class is quite well set up- excluding, of course, the rules foibles that need to be closed up, some work on the exploits, and the current slapdash nature of the write up. (Which I'll more than forgive Jason for, he did rush it out for us before the american holiday! ;3)
Now I've gotta know why this got said. PM box is open, my friend, would love to hear why this was your reaction.Warmage? Warmage got it right? 0.o
<head asplode>
Just a couple pages back you were talking about batman wizards and such, and how inefficient doing hit point damage is, then you turn around and say that the blastiest caster in 3.5 was one of the casting classes that got it right.
It boggles the mind.
Ah. Allow me to explain:
- I consider Batman Wizards to be a problem, not an ideal.
- This does not change the bit where Batman is the most versatile and game-changing way to run a caster, while Less QQ More Pew-Pew is a direct downstep in power and efficiency.
- My goal is to have both casters and mundanes participate in heroic stories where they overcome deadly odds through cooperation, competence, and wit.
- As a result, I consider Warmage to be a well-designed class because it fits neatly into that goal without needing any tailoring. Warmage is a drop-and-go class that lets you participate in the party and feel cool/awesome without automatically overshadowing the other participants. It makes it easier to maintain a common optimization level and restrain caster exploits.
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Sidenote: Guys, not everything is about 'is this class balanced'.
Yes, that's part of it, but I'll take ten FUN classes with a couple weird somewhat-situational superpowers over ten BORING classes that are perfectly balanced.
Not that we shouldn't try for balance, but it's not the end-all of perfection. This is a GAME, after all. >:3
Yes, but war mages, unlike wizards or sorcerers, did not suffer the early handicap in relation to martials. A well built war mage could effectively solo encounters from day one, instead of waiting for later levels where they pass the others.
By mid-level, they are casting in armor, and blasting with divine spells as well.
If you mean they are balanced in the sense that they were consistently powerful throughout their career, then I agree.
I played one to 10th, and stopped because my character did not need the rest of the party to succeed. Anecdotal, to be sure, but it is what it is.
Truth be told, it was one of my favorite classes in 3.5.
Sidenote: Guys, not everything is about 'is this class balanced'.
Yes, that's part of it, but I'll take ten FUN classes with a couple weird somewhat-situational superpowers over ten BORING classes that are perfectly balanced.
Not that we shouldn't try for balance, but it's not the end-all of perfection. This is a GAME, after all. >:3
And this is why I like the Bloodrager mechanically.
It looks fun!
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Now I've gotta know why this got said. PM box is open, my friend, would love to hear why this was your reaction.Warmage? Warmage got it right? 0.o
<head asplode>
Just a couple pages back you were talking about batman wizards and such, and how inefficient doing hit point damage is, then you turn around and say that the blastiest caster in 3.5 was one of the casting classes that got it right.
It boggles the mind.Ah. Allow me to explain:
- I consider Batman Wizards to be a problem, not an ideal.
- This does not change the bit where Batman is the most versatile and game-changing way to run a caster, while Less QQ More Pew-Pew is a direct downstep in power and efficiency.
- My goal is to have both casters and mundanes participate in heroic stories where they overcome deadly odds through cooperation, competence, and wit.
- As a result, I consider Warmage to be a well-designed class because it fits neatly into that goal without needing any tailoring. Warmage is a drop-and-go class that lets you participate in the party and feel cool/awesome without automatically overshadowing the other participants. It makes it easier to maintain a common optimization level and restrain caster exploits.
in order:
-"Batman Wizards" are generally nonexistant outside of high level play (8th-9th level spells, lots of spells per day for everything else)--you need lot of gold and a cooperative GM to have access to every spell needed to become Schrodinger's Wizard.
-true.
-already happens with shocking regularity: those are called adventures. you know, those things folks play when not building characters. it's not as if the casty is the only character in the party.
-that's great, and i did enjoy the warmage back in my 3.5 days--not every wizard need be a god wizard.
of note: a properly played "god wizard" doesn't take the spotlight form the party, they simply act as an enabler to allow the other players to shine with their abilities--guiding the enemies to the fighter with walls and pits, locking enemies down with debuffs for the rogue/ranger/etc to pick off, and so forth. the only real time to resort to the nastiness (save-or-dies and other instant-win devices) is if you're in immediate danger that can't be deflected to another party member to step in and handle.
also, a lot of the "best" or highly-touted spells early on (black tentacles and stinking cloud spring to mind), arent actually deadly or instant-win conditions without the assistance of the party. with the higher end ones that DO lay waste to everything, well, you're high enough level that you shouldnt be fighting mere mortals.
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Some folks seem to think the Arcanist is replacing the wizard with the flavor of understanding the underlying principles of magic.
But they're not.
Wizards are mortal men and women, who have dedicated their lives to learning and understanding magic. They study and study and study. Eventually it pays off for them, and they have knowledge of magic. They can memorize spells and unleash them. Eventually even research new and unique magics, or rediscover lost magical techniques. Theirs is all about 'knowledge'. The wizard, over the years of study, develop mental discipline and routine. Through sheer dedication, they begin to understand the principles of magic.
The Arcanist is similar, but he has something the Wizard doesn't have. He has natural ability. No no, not enough to be a Sorcerer, but it is there. Begging to be developed. So once someone with some degree of inborn talent starts down the road of learning and studying magic, he finds he can manipulate it a little easier than his fellow students, he has a 'knack' for it. He has hunches, he has a more intuitive grasp of what is going on. He still has to study, but he'd never feel compelled to study as diligently as a real wizard, he doesn't need to. He is less disciplined, more off the cuff. His talents lying somewhere between a sorcerer and a wizard.
Just a bit too little inborn talent to be a Sorcerer, just a bit too much to be a Wizard.
So, can I take Arcane Discoveries (UM) after level 5 Arcanist as one of my normal feats?
far as i know, arcane discoveries only replace the wizard bonus feats. if you dont get those, i dont think you qualify.
Some folks seem to think the Arcanist is replacing the wizard with the flavor of understanding the underlying principles of magic.
But they're not.
Wizards are mortal men and women, who have dedicated their lives to learning and understanding magic. They study and study and study. Eventually it pays off for them, and they have knowledge of magic. They can memorize spells and unleash them. Eventually even research new and unique magics, or rediscover lost magical techniques. Theirs is all about 'knowledge'. The wizard, over the years of study, develop mental discipline and routine. Through sheer dedication, they begin to understand the principles of magic.
The Arcanist is similar, but he has something the Wizard doesn't have. He has natural ability. No no, not enough to be a Sorcerer, but it is there. Begging to be developed. So once someone with some degree of inborn talent starts down the road of learning and studying magic, he finds he can manipulate it a little easier than his fellow students, he has a 'knack' for it. He has hunches, he has a more intuitive grasp of what is going on. He still has to study, but he'd never feel compelled to study as diligently as a real wizard, he doesn't need to. He is less disciplined, more off the cuff. His talents lying somewhere between a sorcerer and a wizard.
Just a bit too little inborn talent to be a Sorcerer, just a bit too much to be a Wizard.
That half sorcerer stuff was the old Arcanist. It dosent seem to part of the new.
That half sorcerer stuff was the old Arcanist. It dosent seem to part of the new.Some folks seem to think the Arcanist is replacing the wizard with the flavor of understanding the underlying principles of magic.
But they're not.
Wizards are mortal men and women, who have dedicated their lives to learning and understanding magic. They study and study and study. Eventually it pays off for them, and they have knowledge of magic. They can memorize spells and unleash them. Eventually even research new and unique magics, or rediscover lost magical techniques. Theirs is all about 'knowledge'. The wizard, over the years of study, develop mental discipline and routine. Through sheer dedication, they begin to understand the principles of magic.
The Arcanist is similar, but he has something the Wizard doesn't have. He has natural ability. No no, not enough to be a Sorcerer, but it is there. Begging to be developed. So once someone with some degree of inborn talent starts down the road of learning and studying magic, he finds he can manipulate it a little easier than his fellow students, he has a 'knack' for it. He has hunches, he has a more intuitive grasp of what is going on. He still has to study, but he'd never feel compelled to study as diligently as a real wizard, he doesn't need to. He is less disciplined, more off the cuff. His talents lying somewhere between a sorcerer and a wizard.
Just a bit too little inborn talent to be a Sorcerer, just a bit too much to be a Wizard.
Seems like it to me. The old was just weird.
This new versions screams someone who has just a hint of natural inborn talent, combined with just enough of arcane study to make it work.
And mechanically, it even follows. They have roughly sorcerer spells known as the limit to their prepared spells, and less per day than either wizard or sorcerer. They’re not as good at preparing spells as the wizard, having less dedication, and are less of a magic battery than a sorcerer, having less inborn talent.
Not quite enough to manifest as a sorc, but enough to make learning the hard way a whole lot easier and natural for them. And because they have a little of both, they can get into some really fun stuff that the Wiz and Sorc can’t.
They know enough from their study to know how the magic works, and enough raw ability to tweak it.
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I must say that I love this new direction the arcanist is taking (much much potential for previously unseen or awkwardly-built concepts).
Also it fires my creativity, which is always a good sign in my book. I like the necessary INT and CHA very much.
However, I do not like the elemental exploits at all. They look/feel too much like existing powers with complications added that look like a lot of things for the GM to take into account. And they make it a bit too easy IMO to become an elementalist blaster, always choosing the proper energy for the greatest effect. This concept is great by itself, but putting it in the base class on top of all the rest is too much IMO. I would much rather see it as an archetype.
Also I miss the link with wizard schools and sorcerer bloodlines that appeared before.
I would propose that the elemental exploits be replaced by the following exploits :
- Wizardly focus : Choose a wizard school or sub-school. You get the first level power of this school (the per day one, not the always on)
- Bloodline focus : Choose a sorcerer bloodline (normal or mutated). You get the first level power of this bloodline.
I think that this opens more possibilities while reducing the elementalist blaster effect.
Keeping these proposed exploits in mind, I then thought of two archetypes, based on the idea that the arcanist, being the hacker of magic, can become close to any of the existing caster classes :
- The Arcane Chameleon, with exploits giving access to Wizard Schools' always-on powers and higher level powers (as a chain for each school/sub-school), to Bloodlines' arcana, higher level powers and feats (as a chain for each bloodline) and to hexes, at the cost of one use of reservoir for each casting of a hex.
- The Divinist, with exploits giving access to Domain/Inquisition powers (as a chain for each domain/inquisition) and adding a few divine spells to his spellbook at some points in the level progression.
And of course, the aforementioned Elementalist archetype, blasting with always the proper energy for the job and with additional exploits adding the funny aftereffects of the current elemental exploits.
That half sorcerer stuff was the old Arcanist. It dosent seem to part of the new.Some folks seem to think the Arcanist is replacing the wizard with the flavor of understanding the underlying principles of magic.
But they're not.
Wizards are mortal men and women, who have dedicated their lives to learning and understanding magic. They study and study and study. Eventually it pays off for them, and they have knowledge of magic. They can memorize spells and unleash them. Eventually even research new and unique magics, or rediscover lost magical techniques. Theirs is all about 'knowledge'. The wizard, over the years of study, develop mental discipline and routine. Through sheer dedication, they begin to understand the principles of magic.
The Arcanist is similar, but he has something the Wizard doesn't have. He has natural ability. No no, not enough to be a Sorcerer, but it is there. Begging to be developed. So once someone with some degree of inborn talent starts down the road of learning and studying magic, he finds he can manipulate it a little easier than his fellow students, he has a 'knack' for it. He has hunches, he has a more intuitive grasp of what is going on. He still has to study, but he'd never feel compelled to study as diligently as a real wizard, he doesn't need to. He is less disciplined, more off the cuff. His talents lying somewhere between a sorcerer and a wizard.
Just a bit too little inborn talent to be a Sorcerer, just a bit too much to be a Wizard.
Seems like it to me. The old was just weird.
This new versions screams someone who has just a hint of natural inborn talent, combined with just enough of arcane study to make it work.
And mechanically, it even follows. They have roughly sorcerer spells known as the limit to their prepared spells, and less per day than either wizard or sorcerer. They’re not as good at preparing spells as the wizard, having less dedication, and are less of a magic battery than...
No the sorcerer wizard thing is gone the new arcanist issomeone that study magic and use it to do powerfull stuff both wonderous and deadly. presumably opposed to the wizard that study magic to do powerfull stuff both mundane and deadly. Or somthing...
Edit: i spell like a sorcerer.
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Jesus man, even if your opinion was right somehow (and you're in the minority), who cares?
What do you propose be done so the Arcanist's flavor matches your desires? You've yet to give an alternative.
The old Arcanist was boring as stale bread, both flavor-wise and mechanically.
Now it is interesting in both respects, to everyone who's posted so far except you and one other person.
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My group and I were going over the various classes and started on this one. Each person in my group has a specialty you could say. Each of us understands certain types of classes well enough that we can easily make them very powerful classes. Which has been making things far more interesting with this as these are making us all break from our normal as we find classes we enjoy and want to play. The new one for me was the Warpriest, but divine casters and classes are not my specialty usually.
Now I am building an Arcanist as arcane spell casters are pretty much my domain in the game. I specialize in them and pretty much run them constantly with only a few changes in them. I will say that I am unlikely to use metamagic with this class, but I don't really ever use metamagic with my mages. I would rather buy a metamagic wand rather than spend a feat on them.
With that said this looks like it will give me some fun options and I am liking the look of the exploits. I am very eager to play this class. It lets me hit somethings I have always wanted. I do hope some of the other exploits that will be released will help hit more flavors in other schools. I would love to see some intriguing necromancy exploits, illusion, conjuration, and divination exploits.
I definitely want see more options, but then I am a huge fan of options. I like having lots of fiddly bits on a class to play with. So far it does not look overpowered, but I have to coax someone to GM so I can give it an honest try out.
I have to say on all of these classes almost all of them have us saying we want to try a new class. The only one who is not outside his comfort zone is the guy playing a swashbuckler. He is simply finally in his element with a class that is hitting his play style. There is some interest in the Arcanist from our resident divine class player finally in an arcane class. He usually rejects them, so I would count that as a win for Paizo.
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Jesus man, even if your opinion was right somehow (and you're in the minority), who cares?
What do you propose be done so the Arcanist's flavor matches your desires? You've yet to give an alternative.
The old Arcanist was boring as stale bread, both flavor-wise and mechanically.
Now it is interesting in both respects, to everyone who's posted so far except you and one other person.
If i am in minority, and it seems that i may be, that dosent automatically invalidate my point.
And my point is. That the new classes need to fill some sort of concept void in the game.With me so far?
Until last week the wizard was the foremost student of magic in pathfinder.
Now she is just somebody that memorise stuff but the true scientist is the arcanist.
And if you tell me the old( new) story about the wizard being the theory guy and the arcanist being the practical guy then you have just put to rest every adventureing wizard.
Back in the days when the game was inspired by fiction and myths, and not by a mechanical nuance in the rules. Some one being reckless with magic would be someone dealing with the devil or that kind of thing.
But today it is some one that study even harder!
I look forward to getting yet another kind of wizard in my game but atm that is what the arcanist is.
No the sorcerer wizard thing is gone the new arcanist issomeone that study magic and use it to do powerfull stuff both wonderous and deadly. presumably opposed to the wizard that study magic to do powerfull stuff both mundane and deadly. Or somthing...
Edit: i spell like a sorcerer.
I'm not sure I follow your point.
I don’t see how the description of the Revised Arcanist in any way suggests that they don’t work in a different manner than the Wizard.
Thematically, fluff, backstory, whathaveyou… I can still see a number of possible explanations for an Arcanist’s particular brand of magic style. And the sorcerer/wizard mix is still one of them. Among others.
Example:
The young man descended from a long line of sorcerers, yet he never manifested any spell ability. So as to try to continue in his family’s legacy, he managed to apprentice himself to a nearby wizard. Despite the late start, he took to understanding and using the arcane arts rapidly and even came to find he could store some of the arcane energy he wielded for other uses besides spells. Lacking the dedication built from years of study, he struck off on his own after growing tired by the methodical lessons of his master. Armed with enough training and education to be dangerous, and enough inborn talent to fuel his power, his mastery of magic is both learned and intuitive. He is able to pull apart magic, deconstructing the bonds that hold it together and forcing it to obey his will. It is not an easy task, but this talent allows him to wield magic like no others. He can consume the raw essence of magic to forge powerful effects, both wondrous and deadly.
No? Seems to fit to me.
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If i am in minority, and it seems that i may be, that dosent automatically invalidate my point.
And my point is. That the new classes need to fill some sort of concept void in the game.
With me so far?
And I'm saying the Arcanist does. With me so far?
Until last week the wizard was the foremost student of magic in pathfinder.
Now she is just somebody that memorise stuff but the true scientist is the arcanist.
Wrong. The Wizard is a student of magic, and a learner of spells. The Wizard studies spells, words and gestures of magic that perform effects, and on occasion comes up with a new permutation of the old, dusty ideas that have worked for millenia. The Wizard is the guy who has tenure at a college, a theoretical physicist or something. Of course he has the added benefit of living in a world where, when magic is involved, Theory = Practice, at least a good deal of the time.
The Arcanist is more of a "roll up your sleeves and get in it" kind of guy. He studies magic, in so far as he learns spells. But what he really cares about is the magic itself, not the spells. That's what the counterspelling and spell devouring really speaks of to me, he doesn't care about the spells beyond what they can do for him. He doesn't care about the theory, or the study of magic. He just cares what he can DO with it. He tears apart the very fabric of spells themselves just to get at the juicy power inside. He wants to know what make sit tick...but only so far as he can make it work for him.
THAT is the conceptual difference here.
And if you tell me the old( new) story about the wizard being the theory guy and the arcanist being the practical guy then you have just put to rest every adventureing wizard.
How so? This no more puts to rest the concept of the adventuring Wizard than the Sorcerer does.
The Wizard studies theory, yes. That doesn't mean he doesn't care whether it works or not. Of course he cares! And you need to test that.
As well, adventuring is more about a sense of duty to the world, or at least a mercenary spirit in many cases. Besides, what better place to learn new magics than dusty tombs and crumbling ruins from a thousand years ago?
Back in the days when the game was inspired by fiction and myths, and not by a mechanical nuance in the rules.
:rolleyes:
Look, I can understand if you're not a fan of the flavor. I can understand if you're not creative enough to see potential not clearly spelled out for you in black and white. I CAN'T understand why this put a bee in your bonnet so bad, and how you can say "there is no difference between them". I really just don't see it.
No the sorcerer wizard thing is gone the new arcanist issomeone that study magic and use it to do powerfull stuff both wonderous and deadly. presumably opposed to the wizard that study magic to do powerfull stuff both mundane and deadly. Or somthing...
Edit: i spell like a sorcerer.
I'm not sure I follow your point.
I don’t see how the description of the Revised Arcanist in any way suggests that they don’t work in a different manner than the Wizard.
Thematically, fluff, backstory, whathaveyou… I can still see a number of possible explanations for an Arcanist’s particular brand of magic style. And the sorcerer/wizard mix is still one of them. Among others.
Example:
The young man descended from a long line of sorcerers, yet he never manifested any spell ability. So as to try to continue in his family’s legacy, he managed to apprentice himself to a nearby wizard. Despite the late start, he took to understanding and using the arcane arts rapidly and even came to find he could store some of the arcane energy he wielded for other uses besides spells. Lacking the dedication built from years of study, he struck off on his own after growing tired by the methodical lessons of his master. Armed with enough training and education to be dangerous, and enough inborn talent to fuel his power, his mastery of magic is both learned and intuitive. He is able to pull apart magic, deconstructing the bonds that hold it together and forcing it to obey his will. It is not an easy task, but this talent allows him to wield magic like no others. He can consume the raw essence of magic to forge powerful effects, both wondrous and deadly.No? Seems to fit to me.
I see your point.
But the fact that the class is new is not gonna last. Your Young Mans story kind of need him to be the only arcanist in the World and that is what it is about he could have been a magus or a void element specialist and you wouldent need to change a thing. Exept the copy paste from Jason.I think a greater focus on magic consumation and the possibility to affect spells and magic of others in similar ways as the old ( and fluffwise stillborn) incantatrix of Farun combined with 6 levels of spells would be cool.
Pehaps casting like a magus with a pool but with many many more options.
Some o e that can maximise the clerics healing spells, or extend the wizards displacement. Some one that can steal his way in to the BBEG time stop and control his crushing hand. Some one that can teleport out of dimensional anchor and undress the synthesist.
But the fact that the class is new is not gonna last. Your Young Mans story kind of need him to be the only arcanist in the World and that is what it is about he could have been a magus or a void element specialist and you wouldent need to change a thing. Exept the copy paste from Jason.
I think a greater focus on magic consumation and the possibility to affect spells and magic of others in similar ways as the old ( and fluffwise stillborn) incantatrix of Farun combined with 6 levels of spells would be cool.
Pehaps casting like a magus with a pool but with many many more options.
Some o e that can maximise the clerics healing spells, or extend the wizards displacement. Some one that can steal his way in to the BBEG time stop and control his crushing hand. Some one that can teleport out of dimensional anchor and undress the synthesist.
Well, it could apply to any young wizard to be who had some hidden potential. But yes, it would necessitate that Arcanists be rare.
I like where you are going with the references to the incantatrix... and spell hijacking and modifying stuff. Those elements would seem to compliment this new incarnation of the arcanist quite a lot.
I tossed a few ideas out in the old arcanist thread along those lines, before we knew what 'exploits' were going to be announced. My favorite was:
Spell Gap - As an immediate action, use a point when an area effect spell is cast that you have successfully identified, you may select one 5ft square in its area of effect, that square is not affected by the spell.
But yes, I agree there should be more spell hijacking options in the exploits the arcanist has access to. Having the bulk of them be minor blasts doesn't feel quite right at all.
Wait, what? Why would you say that, there's nothing in that story that requires that character to be the only person like that. Unless you're taking the line "It is not an easy task, but this talent allows him to wield magic like no others." a little too literally. There's no reason why there can't be a lot more people out there who have come to this style of magic, by similar or even wildly different methods.
An old character of mine, for example, was a Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus from the old Complete Mage book. He started out as a Sorcerer of a potent bloodline, but was unable to properly control his magic... he almost burned the entire village down in the process. A few local mystics tried to seal his power away to prevent further mishaps, but they failed (and got pretty badly hurt in the process). So, eventually, he was apprenticed to a Wizard in the hopes that the discipline and training of such a teacher would allow him to better control his untamed magic... and it worked! With the combination of raw magical talent and study and hard work, he was able to adventure with the rest of the party without blowing up the world.
The Arcanist is the perfect chance for me to revisit that character (in fact, I have plans to switch out my character in a friend's current Eberron Pathfinder game for this). The natural talent who uses training and study to help control the dangerous power he doesn't quite have command over yet. Your lack of imagination doesn't mean the class doesn't have conceptual space. It just means you can't see the myriad conceptual options for such a character.
No need to be rude. My lack of imagination as you so cordially cal it is, i think a wish for the game to be a bit more than the rules combination your old character seem to be. I cannot be sure but i suspect that your character was imagined by you looking in the books, seeing the Ultimate Magus, and imagineing up a story that would become the one you soon will play again?
There is nothing wrong with that, if that happends to be tha case. But i, and others like me, Dream up a character without looking at the rules and then afterwards try to fit it in.There is no rigth way but your old character could just as well have been a normal wizard with an unusual background(or rather Common) the talent for magic is a trope in almost every fantasy World that include magic, after all.
I thi
I still find the cooking analogy fits the three arcane peeps well:
wizard - cooks according to the recipes in his big book, and clamors to collect more.
sorcerer - comes from a family of cooks, sticks to what he knows and likes, and can make it from scratch without any recipes.
arcanist - knows the recipes, but tends to eyeball it on the measurements, or try new ingredients to experiment with the flavor a bit.
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... the arcanist DOES have a niche.
Wizards get power though sheer effort, study and hard work.
Sorcs get power from their blood, they're born with it and it comes to them when they call (Not always as they want it... but it comes)
An arcanist is what happens when a sorcerer... studies up.
Someone with innate power that also puts in serious effort to learn how magic works.
Its a niche, its a good one. Why are we arguing about this?
MECHANICS PEOPLE... That's what we're here for. Not "Should this be done" or "This is op and I'm not going to shut up till everyone agrees with me!"
I swear I don't know how paizo does it... other than ignore the thread for three days then make an intern read it...
Its like herding cats around here
I think you. Illustrate my point quite well.
Last week folks like Rastlin, and Harry Potter and every other character of fiction with a talent for magic and a Education to match, was wizards. But now it seems they was Arcanists all along.And on a different note. Calm down we dont want you to bust a vessel.;)
... the arcanist DOES have a niche.
Wizards get power though sheer effort, study and hard work.
Sorcs get power from their blood, they're born with it and it comes to them when they call (Not always as they want it... but it comes)
An arcanist is what happens when a sorcerer... studies up.
Someone with innate power that also puts in serious effort to learn how magic works.
Its a niche, its a good one. Why are we arguing about this?
MECHANICS PEOPLE... That's what we're here for. Not "Should this be done" or "This is op and I'm not going to shut up till everyone agrees with me!"
I swear I don't know how paizo does it... other than ignore the thread for three days then make an intern read it...
Its like herding cats around here
I think you. Illustrate my point quite well.
Last week folks like Rastlin, and Harry Potter and every other character of fiction with a talent for magic and a Education to match, was wizards. But now it seems they was Arcanists all along.
And on a different note. Calm down we dont want you to bust a vessel.;)
Ah I see. When I or someone else uses the term or similar reference to 'inborn talent' I think we mean it to mean 'latent power in the blood'. 'Talent' comes in lots of shapes and sizes.
A wizard could be a prodigy and have tons and tons of magical talent. He is smarter, more thorough, has a keener recollection or is simply better suited to long hours of study, or simply posses a hunger or drive, a thirst for arcane knowledge that is unquenchable. That would certainly be a talented wizard!
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GM can either:
a) give in and top up Sid's gold, to replace all consumables, which means he effectively operates constantly at higher than actual character level, for free, or
b) refuse to replace wasteful, reckless spending, and Sid goes on the messageboards, trashtalking his GM and getting lots of sympathy from people who consider Sid's GM to be an a%@@@+%, for not giving Sid more loot than Colin.
How is this anybody's problem but Sid's and the GM's? If a GM decides to ignore wealth by level to give extra money to someone who can't spend their money wisely, that is not a reason to change the game to accommodate them. That's like saying "I give my players 10,000 gold at level one and they bought a ton of magic items. Now they're super-powerful! Therefore, because of my mistakes, Paizo should nerf magic items."
It's a problem, not when the GM ignores WBL, but when he abides by it.
A GM who says "This is the loot that has been given out. Spend it how you like, but that is all there is." will find the players save and purchase more permanent items. They will also consider "Do we need this buff for this encounter?
A GM who tells the players "I will always top up your wealth, to match the figures in that table" will find the players blow their gold on higher-effect, short term consumables, they will use them whether necessary or not, then come back with the begging bowl, 'because WBL says you have to compensate us'.
A class that can replenish its daily pools, by draining charges from items, is not a problem if the GM ignores WBL, since the player will ration its use.
In a game where WBL is adhered to, the player has no reason to ration themselves, because they know whatever they spend will be replaced with extra loot drops, thereby the extra power is gained for free.
I just want to Gush for a minute here. I love how you can have your cake and eat it too when it comes to being a god and blockbuster wizard. You can fill your spells with battlefield control and invest in blasting exploits with different elements and effects. Im really looking forward to play testing and just playing this class in general.
and also
OMIGOSH THIS CLASS IS SO COOL @Q@ <3<3<3<3<3<3
P.S. I personally don't consider using the consuming magic items trick. I'd rather just use spell slots or just work with what I got.
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"Your lack of imagination doesn't mean the class doesn't have conceptual space. It just means you can't see the myriad conceptual options for such a character."
Wow that's about the third time you lashed out at someone... Maybe you might want to take a step back from this thread.
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I do think the Arcanist should have something like a Warlock's Eldritch Blast. But call it something like Arcane Power, and have it equal to their Caster Level divided by 2 (rounded up) -- or it starts at 1 and increases every odd level.
Sort of steals a page...
Oh please no...
The warlock was nothing more than a broken vehicle to that other game 4.0 dumbed down to the point absurdity. No class should ever have an ability to do direct damage infinitely. Doesn't matter if its 1d4 or 10d6. The with the mechanics that pathfinder uses, someone would stack bonuses with it and twist it, augment with a feat, bloodline, tattoo...
Just a really bad idea.
Not to be too negative but I had really bad experiences with the warlock in 3.5.. ad nauseum.
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Hi all,
I think this is not an hybrid class like the others or not an hybrid clas of wizard and sorcerer. It can be an hybrid class of wizard and magus, and probably is a new class not an hybrid class. The arcanist needs more sorcerer presence an some wizards features but not an arcane pool like the magus to make things like rogue/ninja talents.
I propose revise the class newly and think about two things in an hybrid class form sorcerer and wizard: a specialist wizard without prepare spells and less spells than a wizard but more than a sorcerer or a sorcerer with more known spells, and bloodlines for metamagics or magic knowledge or change spell effects like elemental bloodline.
Maybe change color of the spells, energy type, two energy types, scream effects, the effects of the new damaging arcane exploits in his spells but not with a pool. No wizard or sorcerer has this feature...
Thanks for all!!
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And my point is. That the new classes need to fill some sort of concept void in the game.
With me so far?
Until last week the wizard was the foremost student of magic in pathfinder.
The wizard is the guy who does well in school because he is reasonably smart, studies a lot, and works hard. The wizard graduates pretty high in his class and gets a great job because being a hard worker is actually more important than most other considerations in the work world. He can prepare a good number of spells and has mastered his school's ability.
The Sorcerer didn't go to school, or possibly dropped out. But, he's got a knack for a specific thing that just seems to run in his family. Magic is more art than science for him anyway. He gets a good job because he's phenomenally good at a very small subset of things, probably in an artistic magical field, and has the charm and personal magnetism to schmooze the boss to overlook that other stuff he can't really do, because who you know and how well you can fit into a boss's social strata is actually more important than most other considerations in the work world. He can cast a lot of a very small subset of spells and has crazy innate abilities.
The Arcanist graduated at the top of his class, but never studied at all and has no idea how to work hard. He can barely get any job because he's too busy messing around with the fundamental building blocks of the universe to actually do anything useful that people want. He's undisciplined, so he can't prepare as much as the wizard, but he's supremely talented and understands what is behind magic, not just what you study in magic school, so he can cast anything he's prepared, and he can muck with magic and change stuff on the fly to exploit that knowledge.
The Wizard is a professional programmer who works at Google. The Sorcerer is Zuckerberg. The Arcanist is a hacker that works at 7-11.