|
Another modification I would make is rather than have the blessing be a swift action, have it be an effect of it being wielded or used by the warpriest.
As in if I pick up and use my gods favored weapon, it automatically is made a sacred weapon when I use it.
Using the dagger example, such a change would make that dagger thrower you always wanted but couldn't afford due to having to have so many enchanted daggers a completely viable concept.
The problem is they want to choose where they put their free weapon focus, rather than be forced to have it on useless weapon because of their deity choice.The complaint is that some favored weapons are not very war-like, and less effective than others.I'm still a little confused. They can choose from any martial weapon to be proficient in. Is the problem that they can't choose any exotic also?The problem really is the narrowmindedness of many of the posters. On the other hand, someone else showed a very clever build with Pharasma's choice of dagger.
If you really must have a big honking weapon for your warpriest... choose a more warlike diety. Or if you want a dainty diety with a big weapon, go with Shelyn and her glaive.
And just accept the fact that if you want to be a Warpriest of Irori then you have to totally forfeit your Sacred Weapon ability, since Unarmed Strikes can't be enchanted like that...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And just accept the fact that if you want to be a Warpriest of Irori then you have to totally forfeit your Sacred Weapon ability, since Unarmed Strikes can't be enchanted like that...
Unless they can. This is a playtest.
In which case suddenly you have a class that has magically enhanced fists.
And that would be awesome.
Another modification I would make is rather than have the blessing be a swift action, have it be an effect of it being wielded or used by the warpriest.
As in if I pick up and use my gods favored weapon, it automatically is made a sacred weapon when I use it.
Using the dagger example, such a change would make that dagger thrower you always wanted but couldn't afford due to having to have so many enchanted daggers a completely viable concept.
After playtesting the class, I would like to see the blessings be a swift action when feasible. That would make the class ability much more usable.
|
And just accept the fact that if you want to be a Warpriest of Irori then you have to totally forfeit your Sacred Weapon ability, since Unarmed Strikes can't be enchanted like that...Unless they can. This is a playtest.
In which case suddenly you have a class that has magically enhanced fists.
And that would be awesome.
Although it would make the class even more front-loaded, which is already being seen as a problem.
|
|
And just accept the fact that if you want to be a Warpriest of Irori then you have to totally forfeit your Sacred Weapon ability, since Unarmed Strikes can't be enchanted like that...Unless they can. This is a playtest.
In which case suddenly you have a class that has magically enhanced fists.
And that would be awesome.
Although it would make the class even more front-loaded, which is already being seen as a problem.
Weapon focus unarmed fist and then it is magically enchanted at 4th level...nah.
You already get proficiency unarmed for cleric of Irori, the only gains come if you stay in the class.
This is what I like about the concept. If you stay war priest, your Gods favored weapon would become awesome due to the fact you are a warpriest.
If you dip, you only get the weapon being awesome up to the point you bailed out of the class.
You're doing that thing where you assume "unarmed strike = always fists."
But we know from plenty of posts on the topic that this is not the case.
If I Brilliant Energy my unarmed strike, am I effectively immune to attacks from manufactured weapons now?
Yeah, no way this works for Irori.
|
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
You're doing that thing where you assume "unarmed strike = always fists."
But we know from plenty of posts on the topic that this is not the case.If I Brilliant Energy my unarmed strike, am I effectively immune to attacks from manufactured weapons now?
Yeah, no way this works for Irori.
"What... What are you doing?"
"I AM NOW A LIGHTSABER ELEMENTAL."
|
If the focus is going to be put on the deities favored weapon then how about allowing them to spend channels As a swift action to make an additional attack at their highest base attack bonus, so long as they are wielding their deities favored weapon?
Barring that I'd say add a constant effect to each blessing that ties in to the favored weapon. Something like, "warpriests with this blessing are treated as having the channel smite feat as long as they are wielding their deities favored weapon." Other feat options could include power attack or two weapon fighting. These feats would count towards prerequisites but again only while wielding the weapon. Effectively giving them a leg up in combat.
Of course we could also tie the weapon to an advancement track similar to the bladebound magus archetype. Treating any favored weapon as somewhat magical (perhaps with an enhancement bonus just a little lower than what it would normally be at their level) and adding an interesting ability to it that functions differently based on the type of weapon. An example could be, "warpriests whose favored weapon is a light one handed Melee weapon may, upon reaching X level, use it to parry incoming attacks, as the duelist ability."
Just brainstorming, I really want this class to be a viable option when play testing is over.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some feedback on the creation of a PC warpriest (9th level). The player's expectations coming in were as follows: Has seen clerics played before that did the self-buffing, best-fighter-in-the-party routine, typically using some combination of Divine Power, Righteous Might, and some other long-duration defensive enhancements. Player expected to do this with a Warpriest - as a hybrid Fighter/Cleric character:
So 1 frustrated character does not a playtest make... but there are a few other observations I have from this experience:
1.) The Protection Blessing offers non-stacking bonuses of the most common bonus types, at roughly the same bonus number as the PCs will already have on their gear for that level. If this were a sacred bonus that applied to a number of different defenses, that'd be enticing, but as written this ability seems to make itself obsolete quickly.
2.) I think that "aligning" certain weapon properties like Ghost Touch and Mighty Cleaving is adding too much weight to your chosen alignment rather than your chosen concept.
3.) It feels like the basic cleric class is already so versatile, that it can show up the warpriest early, often, and at just about everything it tries to do. The concept desired by this player can be achieved by a cleric at the level I was running (9th). The extra feats granted by the WP are certainly a benefit, but a War cleric can gain the right feat for the job several times per day. Enhancing your weapon or armor? There's cleric spells and alignment-domains for that.
4.) I tried building out a couple of NPC warpriests and had similar difficulties fitting concept to available rules. Random comments:
Thanks, hope some of this is helpful.
-Eric
Dose Warpriest (and all other fighter based hybrids.) gain access to improved weapon focus and other fighter only feats?
Would it be wrong to suggest to look at the divine champion PrC from 3.5 for ideas?
It looked like the warpriest was trying to go in that direction...
Ciretose, I think a bloodrager could work for Thor, too.
Rage+lightning spells...
|
|
This was a decent class, but I felt that the sacred weapon and sacred armor abilities were too similar to paladin sacred bond (and one of the paladin archetypes that did the same thing for armor.) For a class that's a mix of cleric and fighter, it feels out of place, especially when paladin already is a type of mix of cleric and fighter. I'd replace those with the fighter's weapon and armor training, which would go a long way to making this a more martial character who has decent divine spellcasting as well.
Has no one brought up the fact that the Sacred Armor and Sacred Weapon are better BY FAR than the Paladins Divine Bond. (Also the fact that they get Weapon Focus for free when a paladin doesn't and the paladin also doesn't get armor unless he takes a Archetype).
The ability to spread the minutes over a day is functionally multitudes times better than minutes a few times per day.
(If the paladin misfires on the standard action to activate the Bond in a possible encounter the ability is wasted. I can not begin to describe the number of times this happens in play.)
This ability effectively nerfs the effectiveness of playing a paladin over playing a warpriest (or a magus or whatever other archetype or class spread minutes over a day on blessing a weapon).
The minutes divided over time is clearly a standard for design on all classes after paladin and I've asked some judges to rule that that's how the power works for paladins which have been mostly fair in home games. The danger is organized play where it's RAW or you are cheating.
This emerges from the biggest problem I have with Pathfinder splat books. While they did make the base classes better than 3.5 everything new that they come out with makes the base classes weep in envy.
More PF creep/ridiculousness only brings out my rage over the game more.
-it all started when the Gunslinger killed the dragon. . . nope Zen Archer . . . that was it and that was apg
|
|
You're doing that thing where you assume "unarmed strike = always fists."
But we know from plenty of posts on the topic that this is not the case.If I Brilliant Energy my unarmed strike, am I effectively immune to attacks from manufactured weapons now?
Yeah, no way this works for Irori.
I disagree. Anything you can add to a weapon you can add to AoMF, so I don't see this being an issue.
|
|
Ciretose, I think a bloodrager could work for Thor, too.
Rage+lightning spells...
Oh I love the bloodrager. I've been calling for a full bab 4 level caster class for a long time.
But I'm loving the idea of a god giving someone who wields the favored weapon ridiculous power wielding said weapon, as the class feature of a 3/4 caster class.
I can imagine the dagger throwers of death, the starknife throwers of Desna, the Greatsword of Gorum, the Rapier of Cayden, etc...
That is a class I could get excited about.
|
|
You're doing that thing where you assume "unarmed strike = always fists."
But we know from plenty of posts on the topic that this is not the case.If I Brilliant Energy my unarmed strike, am I effectively immune to attacks from manufactured weapons now?
Yeah, no way this works for Irori.
"What... What are you doing?"
"I AM NOW A LIGHTSABER ELEMENTAL."
If you read the ridiculous into things for effect rather than logic, sure...
Here's another thought. Some favored weapons are double weapons, such as a quarterstaff. When the staff is enhanced by sacred weapon, does it affect only one end, or both? Wouldn't that give those warpriests a significant advantage, in that they are getting twice the bonuses effectively for free?
|
|
Here's another thought. Some favored weapons are double weapons, such as a quarterstaff. When the staff is enhanced by sacred weapon, does it affect only one end, or both? Wouldn't that give those warpriests a significant advantage, in that they are getting twice the bonuses effectively for free?
The last sentence of this ability covers double weapons. It only affects one end.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I saw this higher up and thought it was a great idea and wanted to reiterate it.
What if Sacred Weapon/armor and blessings keyed off of Channeling? fewer pools to track and could allow for a ton of versatility. (sort of a domain smite flavor if they choose variant channeling.)
In the same vein it's also possible to key the weapon focus giving the Warpriest the flavor of imbuing his gods might into any weapon/armor he wishes.
Would also be easier to give clerics and paladins access to blessings.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
May I say that people who feel "rage" or "hate" over a playtest class may have some unresolved issues which have nothing to do with the game? :-/
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're doing that thing where you assume "unarmed strike = always fists."
But we know from plenty of posts on the topic that this is not the case.If I Brilliant Energy my unarmed strike, am I effectively immune to attacks from manufactured weapons now?
Yeah, no way this works for Irori.
"What... What are you doing?"
"I AM NOW A LIGHTSABER ELEMENTAL."
I am now attracting a tremendous amount of unwelcome attention from people wondering why I have burst out laughing at work.
THANKS MAN. >_>
This is what I like about the concept. If you stay war priest, your Gods favored weapon would become awesome due to the fact you are a warpriest.
It's one of the things I like, too. If some of those weapon options seem less than maximized to some players, so be it. Select another deity, or perhaps the warpriest isn't the concept for you. From a game world perspective, not all Gods are going to have warpriests (just as not all have paladins).
Would it be wrong to suggest to look at the divine champion PrC from 3.5 for ideas?
It looked like the warpriest was trying to go in that direction...
err, which book was this in? I checked complete divine and the srd, neither had it.
|
Don't know if this was suggested, but just in case it wasn't;
When Channeling, why not allow the Warpriest to, instead of healing, add a Sacred bonus to all allies within 30 feet for Saves, Attacks (hit and damage), Skill bonus, or AC (each Ally selects upon time of casting) lasting a number of rounds equal to the Warpriests level. In this way, the Warpriest can actually do Blessings which would hold for a good time, fill in a role as a buffer, and have a unique ability which designates it quite well I would think.
Since the channel builds slowly it wouldn't be overly powerful, but enough to be useful for each time the Channel ability increases. This also forces the Warpriest to have to pick between healing bursts and Buff bursts so it doesn't pull entirely away from other channeling classes and there would be a reason o have both in a party.
Call it Blessing of Fervor or something akin.
|
This was a decent class, but I felt that the sacred weapon and sacred armor abilities were too similar to paladin sacred bond (and one of the paladin archetypes that did the same thing for armor.) For a class that's a mix of cleric and fighter, it feels out of place, especially when paladin already is a type of mix of cleric and fighter. I'd replace those with the fighter's weapon and armor training, which would go a long way to making this a more martial character who has decent divine spellcasting as well.Has no one brought up the fact that the Sacred Armor and Sacred Weapon are better BY FAR than the Paladins Divine Bond. (Also the fact that they get Weapon Focus for free when a paladin doesn't and the paladin also doesn't get armor unless he takes a Archetype).
The ability to spread the minutes over a day is functionally multitudes times better than minutes a few times per day.
No, no one has, mainly because it isn't. Sacred Weapon is rounds per day. Even if the paladin misfires, he stands a decent chance of getting into an encounter before the end of the effect, and if he doesn't the ability will last longer in one use than the warpriest's will over every use all day. The paladin can also change what the weapon bond does every time he calls it, unlike the warpriest who is stuck with his initial choice all day. (Also the fact that the paladin doesn't need Weapon Focus for free, since he's full BAB, which outstrips the +1 from the feat starting at 5th level and is even with it for all the time before that.)
(If the paladin misfires on the standard action to activate the Bond in a possible encounter the ability is wasted. I can not begin to describe the number of times this happens in play.)
Perhaps you/your players should be less trigger happy. Do you also see smite evil wasted a bunch of times because it was blown on something the party could easily kill without it and in fact does before the paladin does much attacking? That's a resource management problem, not a problem with the resource.
I am still stuck on some sort of spell combat.
This is a caster/fighter
So it needs some way to cast while fighting or fight while casting.
Limiting the spell selection that can be used here to only be spells that target the Warpriest (even if they are mass buffs like prayer) distinctly differentiates the Warpriest from the Magus in terms of focus.
The Warpriests spell combat also MUST be tempered by the fact that many warpriests will be using two-handed weapons and should not be locked out of using spellcombat simply because their deity's favored weapon is a greatsword. So the "free hand" requirement must go. (though this can be fairly well covered by free action release grip and re-grip)
Spell combat could also be limited to only when using the Deity's favored weapon.
In any case, when you are a caster/fighter you must have some way of blending the two abilities. If this happens, then the Warpriest becomes a first class buffer that also wades into combat.
They do NOT need channel energy on any level if they get this. They can swift-cast cures on themselves or mass cures for the group. This is more resource heavy, but that is a reasonalb eproce to pay. The Warpriest is ultimately a more offensive oriented divine caster anyway.
The sacred arms and armor are neat, and I would keep them.
As to the fighter feats, I have to agree. They should count as fighter level -4 at level 8.
Another way to handle the spell-combat limitations listed above is to generate a simple list of shared spells that all warpriests can use during spell-combat:
Divine Favor
Divine Power
Righteous Might
Prayer
Deadly Juggernaut
etc. etc.
Then for Good Warpriests, add Cure spells
For evil clerics, add inflict spells
Then whatever spells the Warpriest gets from his or her specific domain/blessing
The positive here is that you could also lower the level at which the Warpriest can cast these iconic battle-cleric spells, or increase their duration, or increase his CL when casting them or any number of other things.
I would like to see a lot more done with the deities favored weapon.
I don't. It will only make people pick the deity with the "best" weapon.
Does the rules force the Paladin, Cleric or Inquisitor to pick on specific deity just because the deity got a cool weapon? No.Does the Paladin, Cleric or Inquisitor even have to worry about the deities favored weapon if the character pick one level fighter? No.
Pick two of the most skill starved classes in the game and make it skill starved?
Pick two of the most generic classes in the game and make it generic?
A d6 1/2 BAB robed cleric with a prayer book, scribe scroll, lay hands/mercy and hell even blessings.I gotta say, while combat options for divine casters are plenty, there is a long unfulfilled gap here. A scholarly mystical cleric who is more into the mysteries etc than the smiting and so on.
The D6 hp, 1/2 BAB cleric with a large dose of extra "holy" is something that would have been a better addition to the game than yet another warrior type.
Actually, I kind of agree.
I think that taking some of the great buffing from the Bard, reflavoring it as sermonic performance or prayer or just a really string aura and adding that to a 9 level divine caster would be really cool.
This priest would have 1/2 BAB, strong fort and will, no armor proficiencies, simple weapons, same domains as a cleric, 1d6 HD, and perhaps even some mercies to add to his/her channel energy.
I would play that jam.
But anyway, we are talking about a warpriest...
Cloistered cleric isn't far off from that. They get scribe scroll and are very scholarly.
Comparing the BattleRager to the Fighter and the Cleric is really a good way to miss what this class about.
What you should be comparing this AND the other classes in the playtest are the multi-class afficionados where this is aimed at.
A level 10 BattleRager vs a 5/5 Fighter/Cleric for example.
Well, the warpriest comes out behind in base attack bonus and damage (no weapon training/no weapon specialization) and comes out ahead in spells and spell level, I suppose.
It can be argued that both are probably inferior to a pure cleric in being a holy warrior, though. That is the real arguement I have against the warpriest. The cleric and the warpriest both have the same action economy problems. The war priest's gear is a little more magical but those raw bonuses are going to cap at around 5 anyways so I might as well have a full powered summoned monster fighting with me rather than the penalized one I get out of my blessing. Or does the warpriest not get that until 11? I dunno. I am at work. The full powered battle buddy along with all my extra cool spells are going to make the pure cleric the more effective holy warrior even though she doesn't have the extra feats (the normal ones from character advancement are enough for most combat builds, considering in particular that the state spread will probably stop the warpriest from combat expertise).
It should also be noted that a full cleric could quicken divine power and bless by this point and still make a charge or full attack. And the war priest still does not have his 4 or 5 slots by this point, right?
In my opinion, adjustments to the Warpriest's action economy are necessary to compete with the Cleric as a holy man that hits stuff with a sword when he wants to. 5 Cleric/5 Fighter can't compete either, but that was the point of making a new class, right?
For anyone not following the Brawler thread, it was ruled that Brawler level counted as both Fighter levels and Monk levels for feat prerequisites.
I don't know if that is applicable to all of the hybrid classes or specific to Brawlers. If it is across the board though, it means the Warpriest qualifies for Weapon Specialization, and the Greater feats, which is huge for distinguishing from Cleric and Paladin, in my mind. It also opens up access to things like Disruptive and Spellbreaker.
Again, not sure if it applies, but if so I'm much more interested in this class.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry Ciretose, been busy. Not sure if anyone's made builds yet, I've skimmed this thread at best.
Quick level 10 Fighter build here, two-handed weapons, nothing too fancy, to compare to a Warpriest.
Male Human Fighter 10
Str: 20
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
AC: 25
Initiative: +4
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +9 (12 vs Fear)
CMB: +15
CMD: 27
Attack routine:
+3 Greatsword +24/+19 (2d6+16, 17-20/x2)
OR POWER ATTACK
+3 Greatsword +21/+16 (2d6+25, 17-20/x2)
Traits: Reactionary, Eyes and Ears of the City
Feats:
1.) Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Human Bonus: Power Attack (-3, +6)
1.) Blind Fight
2.) Furious Focus
3.) Iron Will
4.) Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
5.) Intimidating Prowess
6.) Cornugon Smash
7.) Lunge
8.) Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword
9.) Improved Critical: Greatsword
10.) Improved Blind Fight
Skills (ACP -1, not factored into bonuses):
Acrobatics +12 (10 ranks)
Perception +11 (10 ranks)
Intimidate +16 (10 ranks)
Kn. Dungeoneering +14 (10 ranks)
Class abilities: Bravery, Weapon Training 2, Armor Training 2
Gear: +3 Greatsword (18k), Gloves of Dueling (15k), Belt of Giant's Strength +2 (4k) +2 Cloak of Resistance (4k), +3 Mithral Full Plate (18k), Ring of Protection +1, 1k gp
Anybody have a standard Warpriest to compare it to or should I make one of those as well? Warpriest of Gorum would probably be the best match-up.
|
|
In regards to BAB wouldn't it be better to just give the Warpriest a +1 BAB at first level instead of 2nd? Keep the 3/4 progression, just having the +1 at level 1 at least allows you to meet the prereqs for a large portion of the feats. Or move the bonus feat to level 2 and every 3 levels after 2nd.
The only other suggestion would be to allow the Warpriest to count as a fighter for prereqs on feats such as specialization, etc.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
In regards to BAB wouldn't it be better to just give the Warpriest a +1 BAB at first level instead of 2nd? Keep the 3/4 progression, just having the +1 at level 1 at least allows you to meet the prereqs for a large portion of the feats. Or move the bonus feat to level 2 and every 3 levels after 2nd.
The only other suggestion would be to allow the Warpriest to count as a fighter for prereqs on feats such as specialization, etc.
I really doubt Paizo would be up for making that type of customization to the BAB progression for any reason. More likely, they could make an ability that said that they qualify for feats with +1 BAB even before they have it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Jason, thank you for dropping by with your thoughts. I'd like to offer a few more opinions, if it's okay:
- Don't be afraid to seriously rework the whole of this class. This is one case where very bold steps will be justified and likely to be well received! The class in its current state just struggles to be relevant when Fighter/Cleric multiclassing exists, plus several other d8, 3/4 BAB divine caster types are available.
- In brief, what I want to see the Warpriest be is an all alignments replacement to the Paladin. I want the Paladin's general play mechanics (d10 HD, 4 levels of spellcasting, full BAB, similar Smite/Lay on Hands/etc. behavior) minus the Code of Conduct; many GMs and fellow players are so hard on Paladins that they have to be played as better than actual Celestial Outsiders. It's deeply frustrating; I love the class' play mechanics, but their fluff causes so many problems at the table that I just can't bring myself to run a Paladin. The Warpriest seems like a fine chance to not only rectify this, but also expand the Paladin's style of play mechanics to all the alignments rather than just LG.
- Designing the class around the deity's favored weapon is, in its current form, a mistake. Some deities just have really unappealing weapons (Dagger, staff, morningstar to a much lesser extent, starknife, etc.). Either there needs to be some way to get around this, or the mechanics need to be revised to not focus on one weapon so much. I don't mind if a Warpriest looks at their deity's tenets and says: "You know what? You prefer a weapon that simply doesn't suit my needs. I'm using THIS thing instead" and is all the more effective for it.
- This is too front-loaded. You've acknowledged that, so I'm only briefly repeating it; Warpriest 1 is an amazing dip that, as written, a lot of my builds would consider taking. Even just moving some of this stuff to Warpriest 2 would do a lot to curtail the dipping temptation.
|
|
Now. These are just impressions I have currently. This is doing my first impressions and then what I got while building. Please not this is using rules for my group. We roll stats in my group and so this is from the perspective of using rolled stats and not point buy. Basically we wanted to know how the classes would interact with our house rules.
The character turned out fairly well, as she got a good strength and decent stats elsewhere. She came together fairly quickly though I disliked the lack of skill points I can live with it. The free Weapon Focus along with the bonus feat might be a bit much. I will know tomorrow.
I took Improved Initiative and Toughness as my first level feats. The deity weapon is a khopesh. I have her wearing a chain shirt though I could move it up, but I wanted to keep the mobility for now. I also bought a heavy steel shield. So I am sitting at a 19 AC and with Shield of Faith I can move that up to a 21. Divine Favor will buff up my to hit and damage rolls a bit more.
As she sits she looks decent, but it might be due to her having rolled stats. I might be wincing with point buy. I will see shortly how this plays out as we want to run them through encounters from already played adventures as we already know how the base classes work in the same encounters.