I'm not in favor of giving them favored enemies. I think that applying the bonuses they currently get to whatever weapons they are using is just fine. If someone wants to play a character that focuses on the deity's favored weapon, they have plenty of ways of doing that. We don't require them to only choose spells that are part of the deity's portfolio, I see no need to restrict their weapons either.
The primary class feature is not the weapon. They have a few class features, one of which is enhancing the weapon. There are zero reasons to restrict a warpriest to one weapon when we don't do that with other divine casters. If anything, the warpriest should be open to more weapons than the cleric. If we don't restrict the cleric to the deity's favored weapon then we shouldn't do that with the warpriest.
If someone decides that they want to emulate their god as closely as possible, then that's awesome. They can choose feats to help with that. They can choose to use their god's favored weapon and enhance that. I have seen effective dagger fighters, staff fighters, sling users, and even crossbow wielders.
I also want to point out that just because a deity favors a weapon doesn't also mean that they disdain other weapons. A fighter that specialized in longsword favors that weapon but he doesn't dismiss the value of the club in the right circumstances. I don't think a god would take issue with it either. It's flavor. If the player or GM want to focus on that, more power to them. It's entirely possible. It should not be required.
|
Given a bonus to one is not disdaining something else Bob.
Giving a bonus is showing favor.
It isn't emulation, it is a part of the worship of the class. No one (or at least I'm not) is saying taking another weapon should not be an available option.
What we are saying is that if your Deity favors a weapon, and they decide to grant bonuses to those who use that weapon, because that is their favored weapon, that isn't punishment.
That is a bonus.
Just like if a ranger has favored enemy undead, it isn't punishment every time he fights "Not undead"
This whole "punishment" mentality on the boards has gone way off the rails.
|
Since no other class is required to use the deity's favored weapon, then there is no reason to restrict this class either.1. Not required. Given a bonus. Would make this argument for weapon training or weapon specialization? How about favored enemies?
2. It is the primary class feature of the class. That is like saying since no other class is required to be restricted by armor, Wizards should be either.
1. THe fighter choose his weapon training, the ranger choose his favored enemy. The warpreist is forced, unless he choose his good solely by their favored weaon, in that case teh flavor of the campaing have gone out of te window.
2. It is his priary class feature, and it is bad and it shoudl not be in the final product.
1. The Warpriest chooses which deity he worships. Same principle. If you were to argue that those other classes also get SECONDARY means of getting other bonuses to make them more broadly useful, that'd be a start.
2. That's an opinion. I happen to quite like Sacred Weapon.
While we're waiting on the new sacred weapon data, i think ill go ahead and playtest a warpreist of gorum (since hes one few the few gods with a good weapon :P). Hell be using a polearm at first as he cast self-buffing spells and AOO's targets before he drops the polearm, activates his sacred weapon, and goes to town on everybody.
Given a bonus to one is not disdaining something else Bob.
Giving a bonus is showing favor.
It isn't emulation, it is a part of the worship of the class. No one (or at least I'm not) is saying taking another weapon should not be an available option.
What we are saying is that if your Deity favors a weapon, and they decide to grant bonuses to those who use that weapon, because that is their favored weapon, that isn't punishment.
That is a bonus.
Just like if a ranger has favored enemy undead, it isn't punishment every time he fights "Not undead"
This whole "punishment" mentality on the boards has gone way off the rails.
Why make it so complicated? Simplicity is generally better. I don't really see a need to even care about the favored weapon except for flavor. We don't require it for any other divine class. Putting this on the warpriest seems to take away from, not add to the class.
So... Please tell me warpriest is getting the cleric's aura class feature (You know, since they get their powers and spells from a deity and all) and the alignment restrictions on deities and spells. That's one thing that needs to be preserved, in my opinion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's the problem with focusing on favored weapon: it's unnecessarily overly complicated. These classes are meant to be played outside of Golarion. For every option someone comes up with that deals with the Golarion gods, there is a GM out there who doesn't care in the slightest because those gods don't exist. There are also times when new gods might be added. It's just too much extra work.
I think sacred weapon should be a constant effect for their deities favored weapon, and an activated temporary effect for other weapons.
So... Please tell me warpriest is getting the cleric's aura class feature (You know, since they get their powers and spells from a deity and all) and the alignment restrictions on deities and spells. That's one thing that needs to be preserved, in my opinion.
Those casting restrictions are addressed in their 'spells' section, so no worries. As far as the aura goes... yeah you would imagine that this should be a part of the class.
Played it now. at 6th 10th 16th. like the concept, hate the mechanics
Still feels like a worse cleric.
Seconded.
1. Keep the Channel dice as is but give them multiple uses with different function. Make Channel Based on Wisdom. Call it SACRED FIRE!
Functions: Self Lay On Hands!! as a swift action. Takes care of Tankiness.
Grant them, Favored Smite as a swift action, basically channel smite for free but lasts the whole round and works on anyone who is evil (if you are good)-There's the bonus damage every body wants. Damage is considered holy or unholy and does not stack with that weapon property.
Sacred Boon: Burn a use of smite to grant an ally within 30ft a bonus to a skill check, save or attack equal to your channel dice. Swift action.
That actually makes the Channel useful.
Love the sacred fire name. However, this feels a bit too much, to me, like turning the warpriest into a paladin. Instead of a Lay on Hands function (self or no), I'd go with the opposite effect; the ability to harm with a touch, able to be channeled through their weapon. This would also replace the Favoured Smite function. Make the damage work against the opposing alignment (vs. evil if you're good, vs. good if you're evil, choose if you're neutral). The sacred boon works for me.
2.Also the Sacred weapon/Armor abilities need to last 1 min and be a swift action.
I'd advocate for leaving them alone.
3.Give them Sacred Weapon Training: This is weapon Training with the fighter weapon GROUP that the deities weapon belongs to.
EG if You are a worshipper of Pharasma you get weapon training for the CLOSE weapon group. They get it at 6th, 12th and 18th level.
This is a viable solution to the weapon focus/sacred weapon problem.
4. Dump Blessings and give them domains. (Including Domain spells up to level 6) Ensures future support. And frankly domains are better.
I would much rather see a rewrite of the Blessings to enhance them, rather than dumping them in favour of domains. The Blessings are just another name for Domain powers and aren't unique or all that impressive. I like the concept of the Blessings, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired.
5. Give them the inquisitor spell list (which has some healing but is more combat oriented.)
Perhaps a modified Inquisitor spell list. There are a few other spells that I'd include that Inquisitors don't get. Things like Abundant Ammunition, Holy Ice, Summon Monster and Wind Wall come to mind as useful and thematically appropriate for a warpriest.
6. Move the 1st bonus feat to level 2.
Ambivalent about this.
4. At least 4 skill Points per level.
Agreed. Clerics may get 2, Fighters may get 2... Even paladins may get 2, but Inquisitors get 6, and this would be a relatively happy medium and a better balance for the warpriest.
Done. Now play that! That's a WARPRIEST.
Better use of channel.
Action Economy.
Can pile on the damage in limited fashion.
Gets a Reduced Weapon Training. (Fighter-y feeling)
I'm completely with you that the warpriest needs this.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I second the idea about giving the class aura and alignment restriction, along with a clause about being loyal to your god. Because I can see this trying to happen in game.
Jim:Ok, I'm down with tha.. wait a sec, WHAT! I can't kill skeletons with daggers!
Jim:A better weapon. I'm gonna go join an undead worshipping cult now.
Jim:So, you aren't mad enough to take my cool stuff from this class away?
Jim:Okaaaay...I'm gonna go now and start summoning hordes of undead.
Just in case it did go unnoticed because of my rant I quote myself here:
The warpriest doesn't have spontanous casting on his table but in the text. Should be added to the table (if this has been noticed already please ignore)
|
I got bored and made a Half-Orc Priest.
Lawful Good
Half-Orc Warpriest of Iomedae, Level 1
STR: 14, DEX: 14, CON: 12, INT: 10, WIS: 14, CHA: 14
Traits: Jaded (+2 vs Fear), Chosen of Iomedae (Free Mwk Longsword, If the light spell is cast on the sword, the duration and radius of the light spell is doubled)
Blessings: Glory (Glorious Presence) and Good (Holy Strike)
Orisons: Create Water, Purify Food & Drink, Stabilize
1st Level Spell: Bless
1/Day: Light
Starting Gear: Masterwork Longsword (From Iomedae), Chainmail
AC: 18
Initiative: +2
FORT: +4
REF: +2
WILL: +4 (+4 on Will Saves Vs Fear)
Feats
Regular: Focused Discipline (+2 Vs Fear, +2 to attack, weapon damage, and CMB rolls if you succeed your will save vs fear for 1 round)
Racial: Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice)
Bonus Feat: Diehard
Weapon Focus: Longsword (Iomedae)
Feats At Level 3: Power Attack, Furious Focus
Feat At Level 5: Cleave
Attribute Point at 4th: +1 Strength
Bless Weapon Options: Good, Merciful, Axiomatic, Ghost Touch, Brilliant Energy, Defending, Disruption, Flaming, Frost, Keen, Shock.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with many of the issues mentioned here about diety favored weapons. I guess Im less opposed to it because we so often play campaigns in Faerun where the huge variety of dieties seem to favor pretty effective weapons. Perhaps a bit too many longswords.
How is this still being talked about?
There was a blog post. It said that favored weapons would be in, but also that they were going to make all favored weapons effective regardless of their type.
So, expect to see varying bonuses and abilities for different weapons. They know that "dagger < longsword" is an issue inherent to favored weapons, and they are addressing it. At least lets see what they have cooked up before we discount it.
I feel the class is too front loaded & later too weak.
Paladin 1st: 1BAB 2WILL ; Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day, code
Fighter 1st: 1BAB ; Bonus feat, tower shield prof
War Priest 1st: 0BAB 2WILL ; Blessings (minor), bonus feat, focus weapon, orisons, spells, god's favoured weapon prof
All get of course also 2FORT & martial weapons & heavy armor.
Compared to Paladin 1st level: Aura of good & code are neutral at the best. Detect evil is clearly worse than spells. Focus weapon is +1 to hit which takes out Paladins 1BAB (but yeah is worse in that one can't take power attack for example). Deity's favoured weapon can be exotic, but I won't count anything for that, since 1BAB was slightly better than weapon focus at this level. Smite evil is stronger & quicker than Good domain blessing, but Good domain blessing can be used 3 times per day & in mass battles (which many should be) & also used in allys weapon, is needed. In top of that War Priest has 2nd blessing as alternate, so won't be gimped, if enemy is not good. Also there is of course no reason to think that good domain is absolutely the best. So I give that round to War Priest. Now War Priest is still left with Bonus Feat (!) unchecked by the paladin.
Compared to Fighter 1st level: Focus Weapon & God's Favoured Weapon against 1BAB again. Bonus feats cancel each other out. Now fighter is left with minor quirk (tower shield) against 2WILL, Blessings & Spells.
Compared to Inquisitor 1st level: Both have same base stats. Inquisitor has own spell list which is maybe slightly better for gishs. Blessings & domain are near each other (domain has less flexibility, but more uses). But then War Priests start combat abilities start to show: Focus weapon is better than judgement which is 1/day. Then Warpriest has also heavy armor & bonus feat. Inquisitor has more skills by large margin at this point, but combat wise is clearly weaker.
Then War Priest starts to lag... Channel energy 1d6... channel energy is a good ability, if it goes up full speed & you get Selected Channel & Quick Channel. Slow building channel seems to me as minor quirk. OK its good later for Grayflame enchantment. In the mean time:
Paladin 2nd: Divine grace, lay on hands. Divine Grace is godly & lay on hands is very good also, since its swift.
Fighter 2nd: Bonus Feat. Good also, but since War priest gets 1WILL & 1 more spell in the background, fighter is still behind.
Inquisitor 2nd: Cunning initiative, detect alignment, track. Cunning initiative is later worth a feat, at the start about trait. Detect alignment, track are icing, but much more useful than channel I think.
Levels 3 & 4 do ok for War priest, but level 5 is death. At level 5 old classes get something extra special, since its the "no base advances level". Warpriest gets only d6 to his minor ability.
Now all those 3 classes have surpessed War Priest in combat ability.
War priest has 3 BAB + Weapon Focus (1) + Sacred Weapon (1+1) = 5 attack + 1 damage. With Bulls strength (= i round prep) 7 attack + 4 damage
Fighter has 5 BAB + Weapon Focus (1) + Weapon spec (0+2) + Weapon training (1+1) = 7 attack + 3 damage
Inquisitor has 3 BAB + Judgement = 5 attack + 1 damage.. With Bulls strength & Bane (=1 round prep) 9 attack + 2d6+5 damage
So now War Priest can barely match Fighter with buffing & can't match Inquisitors nova ability anymore.
This only gets worse through levels. At level 10 classes should get about 16 to hit from class only (so not from stats & weapons etc party buffs).
Ranger 10: 10 BAB + Favoured enemy +6 & Instant enemy = 16 hit +6 dmg
Fighter 10: 10 BAB, Weapon foc & greater, weapon spec, Weapon training 2, = 14 hit +4dmg constant. On the top of that I usually count dueling gloves to fighter, since its so fighter only item to get it 16 hit +6 dmg.
Barbarian 10: 10 BAB, Greater Rage, Reckless Abandon = 16 hit +5 dmg
Inquisitor 10: 7 BAB, Judgement, Bane, Divine Favor = 15 hit + 2d6+5 dmg (or 2d6+9, if also destruction on, nut for later use lets forget it). Now Inquisitor needed 1 round to buff, but gets well on the game after that.
War Priest 10: 7 BAB, Sacred Weapon, Divine Favor = 12 hit + 3 dmg. Clearly has difficulties being major combatant even after one round buffing. Major blessing don't help much here, they are ally buffs or etc support.
So I feel the major problems roll play balance wise are: 1st & 2nd level should divide the abilities (not almost all got in 1st level...), 5th level ís far too weak.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Guys.... Cast Greater Magic Weapon on your alternate weapon and use Sacred Weapon with your deities favored weapon...
Heck - Based on the current casting progression (which I don't agree with... why should Greater Magic Weapon be a 4th level spell slot for the Warpriest but a 3rd level spell for Inquisitors... I digress), The Sacred weapon is at +2 when you get access to Greater Magic Weapon... Or maybe just use Magic Weapon on your alternative weapons? Nearly the same bonus and lasts a heck of a lot longer then Sacred Weapons does.
You still even have divine favor and divine power to boost up your combat with your Longbows that aren't favored weapons. So you have plenty of options to boost up NONE-FAVORED weapons.
You know what... I want Warpriests of War Gods, Gods with awesome weapons...
Heck as far as I care, the Gods with War, Strength, Protection, and/or Glory domains should be the ones with the MOST warpriests... Maybe Destruction too but then we also get Nethys...
So as far as I care, I HOPE Pharasmans are stuck with their class features applying only to Daggers. Ciretose's suggestion about letting a feat be taken to let your class features apply to none-favored weapons is reasonable... TOO reasonable. Screw that! If you want to play a Pharasman divine character, play a Cleric or an Inquisitor or just accept the fact that your Warpriest is going to get the best uses of his class features with a measly little Dagger...
|
|
Since no other class is required to use the deity's favored weapon, then there is no reason to restrict this class either.1. Not required. Given a bonus. Would make this argument for weapon training or weapon specialization? How about favored enemies?
2. It is the primary class feature of the class. That is like saying since no other class is required to be restricted by armor, Wizards should be either.
1. THe fighter choose his weapon training, the ranger choose his favored enemy. The warpreist is forced, unless he choose his good solely by their favored weaon, in that case teh flavor of the campaing have gone out of te window.
2. It is his primary class feature, and it is bad and it shoudl not be in the final product.
And the Warpriest chooses a deity.
Monks get bonus to unarmed strike and stunning fist. Magus only works with one handed melee weapons. Arcane casters get penalized in armor, druids can't wear metal, Rangers have to choose a weapon style, etc, etc, etc...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Given a bonus to one is not disdaining something else Bob.
Giving a bonus is showing favor.
Yes, and free proficiency/Weapon Focus is such a bonus. The trouble is that the class's primary means of keeping up in to-hit and damage with the martial classes it's supposed to run with is also tied to the favored weapon.
The thing you don't seem to grasp is that without Sacred Weapon available, the warpriest hits like a rogue, that is to say, not well, and unlike the rogue he doesn't even have situational bonus damage to make him hit harder when he manages it. Yeah, he's got cleric buffs, but he gets them late and they have the same problem the baseline cleric does; buffing up costs valuable actions. This is supposed to be a warpriest; he should be good at hitting things.
You keep choosing the example of the ranger's favored enemy and the fighter's weapon training. Not only are both of those things more versatile (weapon training applies to an entire weapon group and favored enemy both applies to multiple types of enemy eventually but also no matter what weapon the ranger wields), but they're on classes with full base attack bonus, meaning they don't actually need them to be decent at hitting things.
Bluntly, I'd prefer a swift action buff economy, even at the expense of scrapping Sacred Weapon/Armor if necessary; the cleric spell list can make up for those things really easily and we don't have to fiddle with conditionals and having multiple competing swift action options.
It's saddening that there are so many arguing against this class being good. Very saddening.
|
|
The thing you don't seem to grasp is that without Sacred Weapon available, the warpriest hits like a rogue, that is to say, not well, and unlike the rogue he doesn't even have situational bonus damage to make him hit harder when he manages it.
Good thing it isn't unavailable.
Clerics only get simple and favored. Want to play a cleric with a martial weapon that isn't your deities. You need to take a feat.
In some cases, that makes sense, glaives and Shelyn being a good example. But Pharasma? Can you honestly claim with a straight face that the text you quoted suggests that Pharasma would favor her Warpriests fighting with daggers?
What part of the word "favored" is unclear?
The part about what it's favored for. The text you quoted is extremely explicit that the reasons for Pharasma favoring the dagger have nothing to do with combat. It even specifies that many priests refuse to fight with it and use a different weapon.
And for some reason you still think "favored" means "Fight with this weapon and I will imbue your strikes with my holy power. Fight with anything else, and I will not".
I'm not invested in this argument enough to fight it any further, and I'm pretty sure I've made my point thoroughly enough that the devs will understand where I'm coming from, even if they don't agree. I'm going to stop posting in this thread until I have some playtest information and can contribute beyond the weapon debate.
I am quoting this to make sure that people who have not read previous pages of this discussion can see this. This also seems Important:
Nothing about favoriting it in combat though.Abadar
"As meters of justice, each priest traditionally carries a single golden-headed crossbow bolt for when a criminal must be executed. This bolt goes to the dead criminal’s family as compensation for the loss and a means to make an honest living."
Needed to type that one. Need to find the Erastil book next.
They just favor it for hanging out at bars.
Are you honestly going to argue that the favored weapon is not actually favored?
Really?
The Lawgiver is the herald of Abadar, a massive living construct of gold and steel. Restricting any communication to quotes from the holy texts of its master, much about this being and its existence remain unknown
Appearance
Standing fully 25 feet tall, the Lawgiver appears as an imposing humanoid knight in ornate armor. The herald of Abadar is flawless in physical design, and appears as a statue as long as it remains unmoving. It carries with it an equally ornate hammer, the Gavel of Abadar, which appears too massive to be held
Except not just the Lawgiver wields a different weapon from his god's favored weapon. The First Blade, who is Gorum's herald, also wields a hammer.
Sacred Weapon (Su): At 4th level, the warpriest gains
the ability to imbue his focus weapon with divine power.
As a swift action, the warpriest can enhance a weapon
of the same type as the weapon selected for the focus
weapon class feature. This power grants the weapon a
+1 enhancement bonus. For every four levels beyond 4th,
this bonus increases by +1 to a maximum of +5 at 20th
level.
Oh boy I can't wait to go to war with my dagger or light crossbow!
It's not like favored weapons are for the most part totally arbitrary or oftentimes for ceremonial purposes as opposed to combat purposes.
It's not like multiple heralds don't use the favored weapon of their deity.
It's not like Sacred Weapon sucks already because it's limited to rounds per level, with the superior Holy Warrior class (Inquisitor) getting BANE on rounds per level, a far better enchantment.
Flavor be damned anyway because if this class sucks few, if any, will play it as you can get a Holy Warrior out of Cleric, Inquisitor, and Paladin without being a wimp.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think sacred weapon should be a constant effect for their deities favored weapon, and an activated temporary effect for other weapons.I think they kind of do with the Cleric spell list.
clerics already do this with the cleric spell list, how about WARpriests being better at that sort of thing.
|
|
The thing you don't seem to grasp is that without Sacred Weapon available, the warpriest hits like a rogue, that is to say, not well, and unlike the rogue he doesn't even have situational bonus damage to make him hit harder when he manages it.Good thing it isn't unavailable.
Clerics only get simple and favored. Want to play a cleric with a martial weapon that isn't your deities. You need to take a feat.
Or a level in fighter. The thing is that cleric is not designed to be a front-line, primary combatant. No, the unbuffed cleric doesn't hit like a fighter, but she shouldn't. The warpriest is a different animal entirely. And so is the rogue, but the rogue isn't designed to be a front-line combatant either. The warpriest needs to be able to reliably hit at least as well as a non-smiting paladin or ranger fighting a not-favored enemy. Which he can't do, except with his deity's favored weapon, which is quite likely to be completely impractical for the situation at hand.
And what's worse is that this doesn't accomplish enforcing flavor on the class; a warpriest of Gorum is locked into a greatsword just as surely as a warpriest of Pharasma is locked into a dagger, even though Gorum's faithful honor all iron weapons and the greatsword was just picked at random to be a good one on the chart since they could have picked anything. Sure, greatsword is a good weapon in most cases, but a warpriest of the god of battle should not be limited in that way, since Gorum has no real reason to refuse to bless just about any weapon he picks up. The complaint has nothing to do with min-maxing and everything to do with flavor, which you have so far adamantly refused to recognize, opting instead to claim everyone who disagrees with you is a powergamer who only wants to min-max the class.
|
|
clerics already do this with the cleric spell list, how about WARpriests being better at that sort of thing.I think sacred weapon should be a constant effect for their deities favored weapon, and an activated temporary effect for other weapons.I think they kind of do with the Cleric spell list.
They are. With their favored weapons.
And martial weapons too, actually, since clerics don't get martial weapon proficiency.
If an Inquistor of Abadar wanted to use a warhammer, would they need to take a feat?
TL;DR
No, seriously 30+ pages to read and fish out if someone already suggested anything similar... Better just give it a new shot :D
Yeah, someone already pointed out that instead of Blessings (which are by far quite weak, most being standard actions and lasting only 1 minute tops!) Warpriests should perhaps follow in Bloodrager's steps.
What I got in mind for that is ofcourse only a suggestion to pick up more ideas.
Maybe have Warpriest get something much like bloodrage, perhaps a quick prayer to their god which leaves them into a stance that lasts several rounds per day, and much like bloodrage, would only grant bonus abilities while the stance is active. The idea of this is to have only one such a stance, not separate two domains or blessings, but have domain powers and/or blessings tied to it by default. Maybe even take ideas from the Style Feats?
Not going to get into too much detail on what powers/blessings/bonuses one would get since I don't consider myself a qualified designer, I trust Design&Development Team can do that much better!
clerics already do this with the cleric spell list, how about WARpriests being better at that sort of thing.I think sacred weapon should be a constant effect for their deities favored weapon, and an activated temporary effect for other weapons.I think they kind of do with the Cleric spell list.They are. With their favored weapons.
And martial weapons too, actually, since clerics don't get martial weapon proficiency.
If an Inquistor of Abadar wanted to use a warhammer, would they need to take a feat?
If a Warpriest of Pharasma wanted to use a dagger, would they need to take a feat? Remember: "The text you quoted is extremely explicit that the reasons for Pharasma favoring the dagger have nothing to do with combat. It even specifies that many priests refuse to fight with it and use a different weapon." From a post just a few inches above yours?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So a losing a level spells to get a level of fighter = ok.
Taking a feat = Not ok?
What feat? You keep saying that, but no feat exists to spread favored weapon to another weapon. None.
Ciretose, what you argue for is actually counterproductive to the lore and to the power level of the class.
I want Warpriest to succeed thematically and on paper. You want to sacrifice the Warpriest's power to make it thematically fit your very limited views.
These quotes are great and you should reread them.
And what's worse is that this doesn't accomplish enforcing flavor on the class; a warpriest of Gorum is locked into a greatsword just as surely as a warpriest of Pharasma is locked into a dagger, even though Gorum's faithful honor all iron weapons and the greatsword was just picked at random to be a good one on the chart since they could have picked anything. Sure, greatsword is a good weapon in most cases, but a warpriest of the god of battle should not be limited in that way, since Gorum has no real reason to refuse to bless just about any weapon he picks up. The complaint has nothing to do with min-maxing and everything to do with flavor, which you have so far adamantly refused to recognize, opting instead to claim everyone who disagrees with you is a powergamer who only wants to min-max the class.
The Lawgiver is the herald of Abadar, a massive living construct of gold and steel. Restricting any communication to quotes from the holy texts of its master, much about this being and its existence remain unknown
Appearance
Standing fully 25 feet tall, the Lawgiver appears as an imposing humanoid knight in ornate armor. The herald of Abadar is flawless in physical design, and appears as a statue as long as it remains unmoving. It carries with it an equally ornate hammer, the Gavel of Abadar, which appears too massive to be held
You keep choosing the example of the ranger's favored enemy and the fighter's weapon training. Not only are both of those things more versatile (weapon training applies to an entire weapon group and favored enemy both applies to multiple types of enemy eventually but also no matter what weapon the ranger wields), but they're on classes with full base attack bonus, meaning they don't actually need them to be decent at hitting things.
3.Give them Sacred Weapon Training: This is weapon Training with the fighter weapon GROUP that the deities weapon belongs to.
EG if You are a worshipper of Pharasma you get weapon training for the CLOSE weapon group. They get it at 6th, 12th and 18th level.
I really like this one because it gives the Warpriest access to Gloves of Dueling.
You do realize that it's what you should be arguing for right now as opposed to keeping this favored weapon non-sense right? It's such a better idea than taking a feat, so why are you still arguing that non-sense?
Also for War Priests I would edit the text from.
Focus Weapon: At 1st level, a warpriest receives Weapon
Focus as a bonus feat, selecting the favored weapon of his
deity. If the warpriest does not have a deity, he can select
any simple weapon.
to
Focus Weapon: At 1st level, a warpriest receives Weapon
Focus as a bonus feat, selecting the favored weapon of his
deity or any simple weapon. If the warpriest does not have a deity, he can select
any simple weapon.and under sacred weapon
As a swift action, the warpriest can enhance a weapon
of the same type as the weapon selected for the focus
weapon class feature.to
As a swift action, the warpriest can enhance any weapon the Warpriest has the weapon focus feat for.
This will provide the versatility needed.
You do realize that your warpriest of Abadar still couldn't pick a warhammer without taking a feat, correct?
couldn't help but notice this arguing about a silly issue. Have you considered that his cleric or inquisitor of Abadar could be a dwarf (racial weapon familiarity gives them proficiency with warhammer, battleaxe and heavy pick)
If not, on the otherhand, whoever started this argue. Warhammer is martial weapon and therefore only warpriest is proficient with them by default. Clerics and Inquisitors only if it was their deity's favored weapon OR they happen to be dwarves. If they're not dwarves, they must take proficiency feat first.
|
|
You do realize that your warpriest of Abadar still couldn't pick a warhammer without taking a feat, correct?couldn't help but notice this arguing about a silly issue. Have you considered that his cleric or inquisitor of Abadar could be a dwarf (racial weapon familiarity gives them proficiency with warhammer, battleaxe and heavy pick)
Do you think this helps or hurts his argument?
Because I wasn't aware that the herald of Abadar was a dwarf.
You do realize that your warpriest of Abadar still couldn't pick a warhammer without taking a feat, correct?
True, but this is far more versatile, gives the Warpriest better options than Crossbow/Dagger, and allows the Warpriest access to Sacred weapon on the Longbow.
Also, what feat are you talking about? There is no feat to spread Sacred Weapon anyway. Why do you keep mentioning a non-existant feat?
|
|
You do realize that your warpriest of Abadar still couldn't pick a warhammer without taking a feat, correct?True, but this is far more versatile, gives the Warpriest better options than Crossbow/Dagger, and allows the Warpriest access to Sacred weapon on the Longbow.
Also, what feat are you talking about? There is no feat to spread Sacred Weapon anyway. Why do you keep mentioning a non-existant feat?
You can use a longbow with my feat suggestion. At the same cost.
And I like how we are discussing your proposed changes, but discussing my changes is just crazy talk...
Applying a free weapon focus to any simple weapon grants Morningstars, Heavy mace, Short Spear, and Long spear.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So a losing a level spells to get a level of fighter = ok.
Taking a feat = Not ok?
A level in fighter gets a cleric as many bonus feats as there are martial weapons, plus two for heavy armor and tower shields, plus the floating bonus feat at first level. So really you get about thirty feats out of the level in fighter, including the one you wanted and a whole bunch extra. :P At any rate, the cleric is still better off doing this than the warpriest is just being a warpriest. He'll still get his spells faster than he would as a warpriest, will get higher level spells, his base attack bonus is now a point higher, and if he has Magical Knack as one of his traits he doesn't even lose caster levels doing it. Now isn't that a kick in the teeth?
I want warpriest to have something that makes it better at front-line combat than the cleric or even a cleric with one or two fighter levels. Right now it bluntly doesn't have that except in a few corner cases. Sacred Weapon exactly tracks the enhancement bonus provided by greater magic weapon at the same caster level (don't tell me nobody noticed that), which the cleric picks up sooner than the warpriest, not coincidentally at the same time he picks up divine power. Turning on GMW in the morning (it's hour/level duration, so why not?) and then spending an action at the start of the encounter to cast divine power puts the cleric at level 7 miles ahead of the warpriest in damage, who at the same point can activate Sacred Weapon and cast divine favor (which has the same bonuses to attack and damage at that level, but doesn't permit the extra attack or grant temporary hit points). Same action economy, inferior result.
By the time the warpriest gets GMW himself and starts to gain a bit of an edge (stacking Sacred Weapon with the spell, presuming he cast it on his focus weapon), the cleric is rocking righteous might. And so it goes. Warpriest needs a way to get ahead of the cleric in the Hitting Things department; this can be done either by increasing the raw numbers of its attack/damage bonus ability or by using a method of improving the action economy of his buffs so that he can get a jump on hitting things while the cleric is still casting, or the cleric will simply always be better at the warpriest's job.
|
|
Considering Jason's comments that they want all favored weapon choices to be attractive, I was thinking of ways they might do this. It probably isn't practical to narrow down bonuses weapon by weapon (especially if they introduce new weapons / deities later on, like in Vuldra). It is probably best to focus on whether they are light, one-handed, or two-handed, melee or ranged. That way if they introduce a new weapon later on, it is fairly simple to determine what benefits it might get.
Here are a few ideas:
Light Melee - 1st level: You may use your Dexterity instead of Strength to determine damage.
8th level - You may apply keen (piercing or slashing weapons only) or impact (bludgeoning weapons only) for free to your favored weapon while using sacred weapon.
Light Ranged - 1st level: You may use your Dexterity instead of Strength to determine damage. You can apply your Dexterity modifier to damage, even if the weapon normally doesn't allow it (i.e. crossbows).
8th level: You may apply returning (thrown weapons only) or seeking (projectile weapons only) for free to your favored weapon while using sacred weapon.
Two-Handed Melee - 1st level: You may cast warpriest spells with somatic components while wielding a two-handed weapon as long as you can move freely. Any attacks you make this round (including attacks of opportunity) are at a -2 penalty.
8th level: The penalty for attacking when casting a spell while holding a two-handed weapon is reduced to 0.
|
|
By the time the warpriest gets GMW himself and starts to gain a bit of an edge (stacking Sacred Weapon with the spell, presuming he cast it on his focus weapon), the cleric is rocking righteous might.
Which he is using with either a simple weapon or the weapon of the deity they selected.
Unless they took a feat.
Correct?
|
|
Considering Jason's comments that they want all favored weapon choices to be attractive, I was thinking of ways they might do this. It probably isn't practical to narrow down bonuses weapon by weapon (especially if they introduce new weapons / deities later on, like in Vuldra). It is probably best to focus on whether they are light, one-handed, or two-handed, melee or ranged. That way if they introduce a new weapon later on, it is fairly simple to determine what benefits it might get.
Here are a few ideas:
Light Melee - 1st level: You may use your Dexterity instead of Strength to determine damage.
8th level - You may apply keen (piercing or slashing weapons only) or impact (bludgeoning weapons only) for free to your favored weapon while using sacred weapon.Light Ranged - 1st level: You may use your Dexterity instead of Strength to determine damage. You can apply your Dexterity modifier to damage, even if the weapon normally doesn't allow it (i.e. crossbows).
8th level: You may apply returning (thrown weapons only) or seeking (projectile weapons only) for free to your favored weapon while using sacred weapon.Two-Handed Melee - 1st level: You may cast warpriest spells with somatic components while wielding a two-handed weapon as long as you can move freely. Any attacks you make this round (including attacks of opportunity) are at a -2 penalty.
8th level: The penalty for attacking when casting a spell while holding a two-handed weapon is reduced to 0.
I suggested by fighter weapon group. Working on it over here.