Warpriest Discussion


Class Discussion

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Well I was really hoping that there would be an iteration of the Warpriest by thanksgiving because I’m doing a play test all day on Friday. I suppose it is still possible we may see some changes in the first post.
I would still like to see a more active class.

Blog post - Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Warpriest

Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game.

Honestly I would rather remove spell casting than Channel Energy. It is hard to be one of the best at healing when you don't even get the heal spell till 16th level. The same level life oracles and shamans get mass heal as an 8th level slot. Taking away channel energy reduces the chance even further that this class could act as a healer at high level.

Now if there was some other way it could do its role without channel energy that is fine or potentially even awesome.

I would love to see the blessings more like stances, or bloodrager bloodlines or Shaman Spirits. Such as each lesser blessing having an active (attack like) blessing, Buff Blessing and Spell Enhancing blessing. Then the warpriest gets a Blessing ability at 1 3 6 then greater at 9ish. You have access to all of your Gods domain blessings but when you prepare spells you can select two of them maybe more later on. The order (attack, buff, spell enhancement) could be different for each Domain/Blessing.

Healing Blessing Example

:

So Healing domain blessing for Attack, as a standard action when you successfully damage an enemy with a weapon you may heal an ally an amount equal to the damage. You may do this x times per day. Or as a standard action when you successfully damage an enemy with a weapon you deny them the blessings of healing and they can no longer regain hit points from magical healing or regeneration for minutes equal to your class level.

Spell Enhancing is - like the current blessing of casting healing as a swift action on yourself.

Buff Blessing is +1 per 3 levels channel energy healing or something like the current greater blessing which isn’t so great.

Then have the greater blessings be actually greater.
Greater healing Blessing Cast Mass Cure light wounds, at 13 mass serious, 16 Mass heal. or something that is great

Spell Enhancer blessing at first level, Buff Blessing at 3rd level attack blessing at 6th level.


Destruction Blessing example
:

Spell Blessing: Spells that do hit point damage are effected by empower or gain +1 damage per die.

Buff Blessing: Current blessing standard action to touch an ally to grant bonuses to damage for a minute.

Attack Blessing: as a free action you may designate a target as an enemy of your God the next time you strike the target with a melee or ranged weapon it is an automatic critical threat, you must roll to confirm. If the actual roll was a threat, then you automatically confirm the critical. Creatures immune to critical strikes are immune to this ability. Once struck a creature can not be the target of this ability again for 1 hour.

Buff blessing at 1st level, attack blessing at 3rd level, spell blessing at 6th level..

Shadow Lodge

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Honestly this class not being able to act as a healer is a good thing in my opinion.


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Zark wrote:

I like that Channel is heading out the door. One of the problem in playing a cleric is that everyone expects you to heal the, in battle and after battle, whenever and wherever.

I really like what is going on with the Warpriest.

I do wish they'd move outside the box of Cleric = Healing.

Dark Archive

Craft Cheese wrote:
Zark wrote:

I like that Channel is heading out the door. One of the problem in playing a cleric is that everyone expects you to heal the, in battle and after battle, whenever and wherever.

I really like what is going on with the Warpriest.

I do wish they'd move outside the box of Cleric = Healing.

There are a handful of cleric builds that make them into a one man army, so I second that. Personally, I pretty much refuse to play a cleric that utilizes positive energy to channel. If I make one it is A.) a bad touch cleric and B.) suddenly returns to being ye olde clericzilla if it even has a single round to buff.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DM Beckett wrote:
Honestly this class not being able to act as a healer is a good thing in my opinion.

Huh? The only prerequisite for being an effective healer in the game is having CLW on your spell list so you can operate happysticks. So pretty much there's zero difference between Warpriest and everybody else in this regard.

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Honestly this class not being able to act as a healer is a good thing in my opinion.
Huh? The only prerequisite for being an effective healer in the game is having CLW on your spell list so you can operate happysticks. So pretty much there's zero difference between Warpriest and everybody else in this regard.

I was responding to this:

Golo wrote:
Honestly I would rather remove spell casting than Channel Energy. It is hard to be one of the best at healing when you don't even get the heal spell till 16th level.


Gorbacz wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Honestly this class not being able to act as a healer is a good thing in my opinion.
Huh? The only prerequisite for being an effective healer in the game is having CLW on your spell list so you can operate happysticks. So pretty much there's zero difference between Warpriest and everybody else in this regard.

Oh no, the Bag bit before it had digested the post responded to.

That should teach you not to hit the snark button to soon ;)

BTW, I agree completely with you (and with DM Beckett) :P


Its looking like the dream of Full BAB has died. Maybe it was naive from the start. The unquenchable thirst for infinitesimally varied buff spells conquers all.


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Frederic wrote:
Its looking like the dream of Full BAB has died. Maybe it was naive from the start. The unquenchable thirst for infinitesimally varied buff spells conquers all.

Never has anything been more true.

My heart soars with anticipation, the shadow of my glory passing over your shattered dreams.

"No," I whisper to the wreckage below, "play Paladin."


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Excaliburproxy wrote:
"No," I whisper, "play Paladin."

"Yes...." the evil gm says as his fingers gently touch eachother, He pats the tips of his fingers together a few times and says, "Play the paladin." He smiles and shows his canines. "And remember that code!"

The paladin is awesome, except that code thing isn't always part of your character concept. Nor is being LG. You might also want a deity that doesn't quiet fit well with paladins. We also have 3 3/4 BAB classes with deity based divine casting now, and only one with full BAB. Starting to look a little hard not to step on toes I'd imagine.

Silver Crusade

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I believe it would be best if we Disassociate the Paladin from this class. A Paladin is a LG (and therefore only certain gods and religions, if they even choose to follow one) Divinely empowered character that has a very specific concept as well as a code of conduct.

Whereas Clerics are the casters of a Deity and its Religion.

Inquisitors are the investigators and specialists of a Deity and its Religion.

And now we have the Warpriest, which are the fighters and defenders of their Deities and Religion.


I think this class is going to be awesome. Perhaps my new favorite class. I really hope the move the bonus feat to level 2.

Silver Crusade

MrSin wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
"No," I whisper, "play Paladin."

"Yes...." the evil gm says as his fingers gently touch eachother, He pats the tips of his fingers together a few times and says, "Play the paladin." He smiles and shows his canines. "And remember that code!"

The paladin is awesome, except that code thing isn't always part of your character concept. Nor is being LG. You might also want a deity that doesn't quiet fit well with paladins. We also have 3 3/4 BAB classes with deity based divine casting now, and only one with full BAB. Starting to look a little hard not to step on toes I'd imagine.

And a full BAB/d10 divine class that's not paladin could easily fit in the game. It just needs its abilities to not be direct copypaste/ports from the paladin and needs to not be called "paladin." But that is, evidently, not this class.

I'd also be good with antipaladins being "any evil," as opposed to just chaotic evil (and possessed of a code that actually requires him to kick puppies), but we really need to think about what we're doing before we do "paladin for any alignment." Thematically, does it really make sense for, say, Chaotic Good to empower an order of code-bound knights to serve it's cause? I say no, not really. There could easily be a chaotic good champion class in a similar (but not identical) vein, but it's seriously out of character to apply a strict code to it, and the class ability set shouldn't be a port either, both for variety purposes and because something better fitting Chaotic Good's (or any other alignment's) ethos could surely be devised. I question whether the neutral (on any axis) alignments should have militant champions at all; given it's druthers I'd see Neutral Good as an ethos whose adherents would rather spend their time doing charity work than smiting people and enforcing law, true neutral doesn't care enough, neutral evil might just for the whole laying waste to all that's good and holy thing (see antipaladin being suitable for "any evil), chaotic neutral would rather be left alone... Of all the neutral alignments, only lawful neutral strikes me as likely to be militant about it.

Scarab Sages

Rysky wrote:
And now we have the Warpriest, which are the fighters and defenders of their Deities and Religion.

Its odd that they fight so much worse than an Inquistor though eh?


In regards to the Warpriest having an armor edge on all the other Divine+Martial classes, I disagree.

A Battle/Metal Oracle who takes the Skill at Arms revelation at 1st level is right up there with Warpriest, except with superior stat distribution (no need for Wis) and better spells.


Matthew Trent wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And now we have the Warpriest, which are the fighters and defenders of their Deities and Religion.
Its odd that they fight so much worse than an Inquistor though eh?

We don't know that yet. Also if they can Swift heal and Swift buff we may have another class all together.

Swift Divine Power and then arrrrrrrrgggggg.


There should really be a generic rule that allows you to use slower action types for fast-action abilities.

You can already turn a Standard Action into a Move Action. What about using a Move action to activate a Swift-action ability.

Sovereign Court

Why take warpriest instead of multi-classing one level of fighter and the rest cleric? This class just isn't different enough as written to warrant being a new base class.

Silver Crusade

Thebethia wrote:
Why take warpriest instead of multi-classing one level of fighter and the rest cleric? This class just isn't different enough as written to warrant being a new base class.

You do realize this thread's been going on for 22 pages and counting, and you are far from the first person to say this, right? :p

Sovereign Court

Renegade Paladin wrote:


Thebethia wrote:


Why take warpriest instead of multi-classing one level of fighter and the rest cleric? This class just isn't different enough as written to warrant being a new base class.

You do realize this thread's been going on for 22 pages and counting, and you are far from the first person to say this, right? :p

Of course, but if only one person says it then paizo will likely ignore them, if 200 people say it they will be more likely to take it to heart and make some changes.

Liberty's Edge

Jason posted this in the Paizo Blog: "Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game."

I like that Jason is looking at reducing the MAD components of the class (ie channel energy being based on charisma). I am hoping that he sees the role of a WARpriest as being an offensively minded character. We already have the one note defensive hybrid.

Silver Crusade

Maybe giving them a Religion or Organization bane ability or bonuses?


Never has anything been more true.

My heart soars with anticipation, the shadow of my glory passing over your shattered dreams.

"No," I whisper to the wreckage below, "play Paladin."

I laughed when I read this. I had fun on this thread even if things turned out other than I'd hoped. Thanks everybody. I love Pathfinder. Going to go make a Paladin now.. Goodnight

Silver Crusade

OK - to summarize the major themes running through this thread so far (in no particular order):

1. Some people wonder why this class exists, since warpriest role is already filled quite well by the paladin, inquisitor, several varieties of oracle, and this little known class called the cleric.
2. Some people are looking for this class to be full BAB to increase it's martial ability.
3. Some people want a 1/2 BAB, armorless full caster.
4. This class appears dependent on nearly every ability score to function (it's Multiple Ability Dependent; aka MAD). Looks like this is being addressed.
5. A few people have noted some imbalances in the Blessings, and that the mechanic as a whole could use a boost.
6. Several people don't like the class being tied to the deity's favored weapon, feeling it may limit deity to a few choices deities with "good" weapons.
7. Some people feel this class has too many abilities requiring tracking - spells, sacred weapon uses, sacred armor uses, blessings, etc.
8. Several people see the class as is as a great 1 level dip class. It's very frontloaded - it's gets a ton of stuff at 1st level.
9. There's is confusion over whether the class counts as a fighter and/or cleric for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
10. And the usual complaint about not enough skill points. :-)

I'm sure I missed a few, but that should catch any late arrivals up a bit. Most of these topics have been discussed thoroughly (50+ posts).

Keep the topics coming!


Spellcombat repost #34,571.


Alceste008 wrote:

Jason posted this in the Paizo Blog: "Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game."

I like that Jason is looking at reducing the MAD components of the class (ie channel energy being based on charisma). I am hoping that he sees the role of a WARpriest as being an offensively minded character. We already have the one note defensive hybrid.

The only issue that I can see is if you want to take Guided Hand, you need Channel smite. Maybe have an ability that keys off wisdom that counts as channel energy for feat prerequisites, or allow a warpriest to take guided hand as a bonus feat even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites?

Dark Archive

They shouldn't need guided hand once this is all said and done. It's being altered so as to only rely on STR and WIS from the looks of things, meaning that you ought to have ample stat points available.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Spellcombat repost #34,571.

Or maybe spellstrike and instead of delivering the a spell trhough the blade the warpriest buff himslef and attack at the same time.


sowhereaminow wrote:

OK - to summarize the major themes running through this thread so far (in no particular order):

1. Some people wonder why this class exists, since warpriest role is already filled quite well by the paladin, inquisitor, several varieties of oracle, and this little known class called the cleric.
2. Some people are looking for this class to be full BAB to increase it's martial ability.
3. Some people want a 1/2 BAB, armorless full caster.
4. This class appears dependent on nearly every ability score to function (it's Multiple Ability Dependent; aka MAD). Looks like this is being addressed.
5. A few people have noted some imbalances in the Blessings, and that the mechanic as a whole could use a boost.
6. Several people don't like the class being tied to the deity's favored weapon, feeling it may limit deity to a few choices deities with "good" weapons.
7. Some people feel this class has too many abilities requiring tracking - spells, sacred weapon uses, sacred armor uses, blessings, etc.
8. Several people see the class as is as a great 1 level dip class. It's very frontloaded - it's gets a ton of stuff at 1st level.
9. There's is confusion over whether the class counts as a fighter and/or cleric for the purpose of qualifying for feats.
10. And the usual complaint about not enough skill points. :-)

I'm sure I missed a few, but that should catch any late arrivals up a bit. Most of these topics have been discussed thoroughly (50+ posts).

Keep the topics coming!

I'd say your third item is a little unfair, considering vastly more people seem to want full BAB melee/ranged powerhouse than they do 1/2 BAB full caster. Other than that, I'd add:

11. Lots of back and forth about Spell Combat; should this character be a divine gish?
12. Some talk of spontaneous casting.
13. Does the class really need Channel Energy or sixth level spells if it comes at the cost of full BAB?
14. Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armor are a little ho-hum and more or less identical to the paladin's Divine Bond sans penalty upon destruction.
15. The capstone is kind of boring.

Great post, by the way!

Shadow Lodge

Spent the evening playtesting and theorycrafting.

Warpriest, Bloodrager, Shaman, with Sorcerer. We ran a scenario at 1 and then another at 4. Each of these have a very dangerous BBEG encounter and both were made trivial.

The first one the Warpriest never managed to hit anything, BUT he had enough armor to not get hit, either. Without anything else to focus on, the player really drove the AC up, having a 22 at level 1.

At level 4, he swung once and the combat ended shortly after, having spent 2 rounds moving and buffing. It was simply too slow and he kept trying to activate abilities and saying some pretty nasty things when he found out they were not.

Ultimately, lots of buffs, but because of the poor action economy, he was always way, way behind.

Scarab Sages

Should've spent less time buffing, more time attacking :P


It's a 3/4 BAB class that gets it's only buffs to hit from spells, spells that it gets late. (By level 5 you'll have a +1 weapon, so the only help Sacred Weapon gives is damage.)

Without the buffing, it'll have trouble hitting. With the buffing, it joins the fight too late to matter.


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I, for one, do not want full BAB. 6 levels of casting are way too many for a full BAB class to have... and dropping down to 4 makes this too much like a paladin.

If anything, they could just make a set of variant Paladins that follow different deities with different sets of auras etc.

Frankly, any class that attempts to blend spellcasting with martial combat NEEDS a way to either largely ignore casting in combat (swift judgements/bane from inquisitor) or combine the two into a single action (magus spellcombat).

No other method really works that well... and it doesn't make a bad character (See cleric or battle oracle), but it does make a character that casts OR fights, not a character that casts AND fights.... and I think the Warpriest should be the latter.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd like to see a warpriest be able to deliver extra damage (inflict light wounds, perhaps?) on a successful attack with the deity's favoured weapon.


Lord_Malkov wrote:
No other method really works that well... and it doesn't make a bad character (See cleric or battle oracle), but it does make a character that casts OR fights, not a character that casts AND fights.... and I think the Warpriest should be the latter.

Agreed, but I'm not sure how it will get there sans full BAB. Surely, there is a way to have a martial divine character with full BAB and fourth level spells that is not a paladin; perhaps the blessings, bonus feats, better channeling and lack of smite evil, lay on hands, etc. will help? Still, that is only a start.

I think a few things ought to happen going forward:

  • Make the bonus feats combat feats only, like the fighter. If we need to make sacrifices and emphasize martial ability, this is a good place to do it.
  • The action economy has to absolutely be improved. The warpriest is hobbled by its reliance on buffs to do much of anything, let alone accomplish its melee/ranged goals.
  • Make the blessings more exciting, and improve Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armor to move them away from the paladin's Divine Bond.

Those changes would be a decent start toward making a much more fighter-flavored character, without it being too close to paladin. But honestly, if the only difference between the warpriest and the paladin is 3/4 BAB and two levels of spells, and changing that makes it too similar, maybe that's the biggest problem with the class: All that differentiates it is its BAB and sixth level spells.

Dark Archive

The thing to remember is that paladins get a lot more class features, at present, than warpriests do (and better ones at that). It MIGHT not be game breaking to give them full BAB progression in addition to their 6th level spells if one takes that into account. People would need to do some testing and number crunching to say for sure.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The idea of warpriest as buffer is a good one. Making it excel at healing... not so much. There should definitely be an archetype for healers, but not for the standard class. That would move it too far away from it's stated role as "divine soldier."

Also, there is room for another full BAB 4 divine spell level class. We have the paladin and the ranger, both of which fill that criteria and are yet mechanically diverse. Paladins and rangers have a number of relatively minor features that are always active: saving throw bonuses, bonus feats, and so on. One way to separate a full BAB warpriest from them would be to give them stronger features that have a daily limit.


Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

I say give them the choice at first level to cast Cure/Inflict spells as SLA 3+wis mod x a day this choice cant be changed once taken. At every odd level it goes up as to replace Channel energy.


Neo2151 wrote:

There should really be a generic rule that allows you to use slower action types for fast-action abilities.

You can already turn a Standard Action into a Move Action. What about using a Move action to activate a Swift-action ability.

While this is tempting, Swift actions are specifically balanced around only being able to use one swift action per round. Allowing move actions to be "traded down" to swift actions would have fairly significant effects on numerous class features - quickened spells and judgement-twisting springs to mind.

Dark Archive

JohnF wrote:


I'd like to see a warpriest be able to deliver extra damage (inflict light wounds, perhaps?) on a successful attack with the deity's favoured weapon.

Free channel smite sort of deal, only with the favored weapon? That could be funky.

I'd definitely hope that the warpriests stuck with daggers and quarterstaves as their favored weapons (followers of Pharasma, Nethys, etc.) get something to make them competitive with those who get fun weapons like longbows (Erastil) or whatever.

Shadow Lodge

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The blog post yesterday specifically stated they would receive bonuses for using their favored weapon and it would depend on the quality of said weapon as to what they would get. They are going to stick to requiring favored weapon, but giving a reasonable buff to it.

I think 3/4 bab and 6 spell levels is perfectly fine IF the character has a better action economy. I'm still firmly of the opinion that self-buffs that are either prepared buffs or blessings (prevents spontaneous heals from being unbalanced since this would be a negative for evil warpriests) should be able to be cast as part of a full round action a la spell combat.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Frankly Furthermore's rebuild look a lot better. The biggest issues for me was without a full BAB a lot of the 'fightery' options seemed to be constrained. I understand why they don't want to step on the Paladin's toes too much, but honestly unless the Blessings and Favored Weapon bonuses for a Warpriest are being used...what's the point?

I'd like there to be some serious consideration as to what the Warpriest's role is in the church at large. Paladin's are rare being, one off exemplars of godly ideas. Most Clerics are 'okay' fighters, but flexible casters. Warpriests need to fill that middle ground more. The front line fighter, field medics, support guys etc.

I'd like a lot of the Blessing/Channel abilitites to be tied to combat support and control mechanics. These guys need a lot more well Cavalier or "Marshal" in them.

And yes, please fix the action economy. Too many move/swith action requirements to turn things are turn them into Clerics again.

Liberty's Edge

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I find the healing aspect just fine in this class. To be honest there are not enough players who want to play healer. Alot want to just go in and bash or shoot bolts of energy. I think the minor healing this class has been given is enough. The healing blessing makes them more tanky rather than healer.

Warpriest is good for a person who wants to play fighter but the party lacks a core healer. Its a great second option, however Some my say it lacks personlity of its own.


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I was helping one of my players to build their character for our playtest and found a glaring lack of ranged options. I think the class should be able to support archer priests of Erastil, for example, just as melee guys. Such a character has no good Blessing options that aid his ranged attacks.

Scarab Sages

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Neo2151 wrote:

It's a 3/4 BAB class that gets it's only buffs to hit from spells, spells that it gets late. (By level 5 you'll have a +1 weapon, so the only help Sacred Weapon gives is damage.)

Without the buffing, it'll have trouble hitting. With the buffing, it joins the fight too late to matter.

Why does everyone keep saying this when Sacred Weapon EXPLICITLY states that it stacks with any existing bonuses?

I don't say that to sound frustrated with you, but because I feel like I've made that correction about 10 times in the last two days, some of which are in this same thread >_>


Just a thought to make the class a little less mad. How about tying into sacred armor or a feat or ability at some point along the way that allows the warpriest to use their wisdom mod as their dex mod to AC, still having it restricted by armor?
I haven't had a chance to playtest any of the classes yet so not sure if it would work or be helpful really.


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So here is a suggestion.

Warpriest

Alignment: Change to "A Warpriest's alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis

Hit Die: Change from D8 to D10

Keep Skills/BAB/Saves and Spells the way they are.

Otherwise Class Features

Add Aura
[A Warpriest of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment]

Change Focus Weapon
[Add that a Warpriest using the favored weapon of his god can use it as a divine focus. In additon to the Weapon Focus Feat]

Move Bonus Feats to 2nd level and every three levels after[2,5,8 etc]

Remove Channel Energy

Change Blessings
[Add a pool of "Faith" points equal to 1/2 Warpriest level plus Wis modifier; make Blessings more like talents chosen at the levels having access to Minor and Major powers associted with gods domains. Let them mix and match rather than only have 2]

At 2nd Level Add "War Casting"
[When a Warpriest either hits a foe or is damaged by a foe they can as an immediate action spend 1 Faith point to cast a spell; i'd either limit it by 1 Faith Point per level of spell or have it increase as you level.]

I'd also add a type of skill that allows the Warpriest to count his level -3 for fighter feats.

Shadow Lodge

I actually would prefer a Full BAB d8 class to a 3/4 BAB d10 class, because Warpriest has enough for defense, and really just needs some more offense.


I really don't think the Warpriest will be Full BAB due to the 6th Casting progression.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
I really don't think the Warpriest will be Full BAB due to the 6th Casting progression.

I would be ok with a 4th level casting progression if it meant a Full BAB class.

I want a 'Paladin' of non lawful good.

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