Warpriest: It's too danged multiple attribute dependent. This should be corrected.
I could go for simplifying the MAD too. Five attributes is hard to handle while your up in the frontlines imo. Not a fan of it on cleric or shaman either really, but for a guy who really wants to be up front it looks especially painful imo.
Still on favored weapon I see. Whelp, time for me to go against the grain!
Warpriest: It's too danged multiple attribute dependent. This should be corrected.
Reiteration of an earlier statement is go.
You know: I don't know if that is true? Wisdom does not necessarily need to be that high if the class is not relying on save effects. And if they get swift action heals or something eventually, it is conceivable that they could drop con a bit.
My guess is that everyone is gonna drop charisma too because the channel progression is so lackluster.
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Ciretose, can you link your ability?
Or scroll up, it's on this page :).
EDIT: Well...it was :)
More complicated than a simple ability but, here is my suggestion.
1. Static bonus to a single weapon, either favored or with a feat something else.
2. You take a domain weapon feature bonus, which you can use either times per day based on level or rounds per day based on level (examples above) and this is where bonus spells come in.
3. Weapon groups list feats you can choose in a manner similar to Ranger Combat Mastery and in place domain (blessing) powers you get abilities tied to those types of weapons, X times a day. (examples) above.
So a Warpriest of Pharasma has daggers as favored/sacred weapon. She gets a a static bonus when using daggers. In addition, if she chooses the death domain she can add Bane:Undead to the dagger X times based on level. Finally, if she selects the thrown weapon group, she can make them returning X times based on level.
What order you get these in and how they progress we work out in the details, but the framework allows lots of variation, while still keeping themes front and center.
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I have said it a few times, it's been implied by others, but honestly, I want to see this class get somewhere, not a back and forth about the weapons it is using.
Until we hear from the devs about the weapon, can we please table this part of the discussion? I would like to see people suggest ways to improve the class.
Actually, at this point, I think there have been a lot of GREAT ideas and no comments made by the devs to give us a clue if we are having any weight here or if we aren't in the right realm. Even if it is simply to say: "We know this class needs love, these are the things we are looking at...."
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So to sum up, column one is just the bonus.
According to the SRD, there are currently 41 separate +1 item bonuses.
More than enough to cover a wide range of "domains" or "blessings" or whatever you want to call them. That is column 2.
Column 3 there are 15 Weapon types.
This would replace the Sacred Weapon, Domains and Bonus Feats (as the bonus feats would come from column 3)
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I have said it a few times, it's been implied by others, but honestly, I want to see this class get somewhere, not a back and forth about the weapons it is using.
Until we hear from the devs about the weapon, can we please table this part of the discussion? I would like to see people suggest ways to improve the class.
Actually, at this point, I think there have been a lot of GREAT ideas and no comments made by the devs to give us a clue if we are having any weight here or if we aren't in the right realm. Even if it is simply to say: "We know this class needs love, these are the things we are looking at...."
What else is there to discuss?
Still on favored weapon I see. Whelp, time for me to go against the grain!
Warpriest: It's too danged multiple attribute dependent. This should be corrected.
Reiteration of an earlier statement is go.
You know: I don't know if that is true? Wisdom does not necessarily need to be that high if the class is not relying on save effects. And if they get swift action heals or something eventually, it is conceivable that they could drop con a bit.
My guess is that everyone is gonna drop charisma too because the channel progression is so lackluster.
Well, wisdom isn't a dump for anyone really, and charisma is optional. You still want least spell level in wisdom, and you would like to not totally dump charisma probably(though this class isn't big on channeling imo...) So its not the worst thing in the world, still not the most amazing either.
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What else is there to discuss?I have said it a few times, it's been implied by others, but honestly, I want to see this class get somewhere, not a back and forth about the weapons it is using.
Until we hear from the devs about the weapon, can we please table this part of the discussion? I would like to see people suggest ways to improve the class.
Actually, at this point, I think there have been a lot of GREAT ideas and no comments made by the devs to give us a clue if we are having any weight here or if we aren't in the right realm. Even if it is simply to say: "We know this class needs love, these are the things we are looking at...."
Its problem with being so MAD, the fact that the blessings are standard actions when they'd be more appropriate on a front liner as swift, or even simply suggesting new and/or revised class mechanics other than the issue with favored weapons. There are all kinds of possibilities, and you never know; it could be one of us that provides the devs with the inspiration for that one change that makes the class awesome.
In response to MrSin: CHA is not their most important stat, I agree. That being said, it suddenly gains importance if you want something to run nengative energy instead of positive. Ultimately, I think the main reason I'd like to see it fixed is to allow the channel to be more readily applied for offensive purposes. Right now, getting the save even close to high enough is simply not viable in the build.
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Either the favored weapons are favored, or they aren't. It is like saying "I like Cayden's philosophy, except the drinking part..."
Separatist Cleric does this. Let me offer you a character concept with this... imagine someone saying: "I believe Cayden's tenets of self-reliance, 'work hard, play hard', doing what's right regardless of rules, helping others, and reducing reliance on centralized authorities are all right. I believe his goals would be accomplished even better with a clear head. Therefore I will not drink, and I hope my example will guide others of my faith to follow suit... and while this may be arrogant of me to think, perhaps one day even Cayden himself will do so!"
That's an example of a flavorful, well-storied character with a built in conflict hook (albeit a mild one, "I wish my allies would quit drinking, COMPLETELY" is not the sort of thing that comes to serious blows) going against a core part of the deity. The game even supports it with that archetype listed above.
It is entirely possible to be part of a faith, political faction, philosophy, or so on and not agree 100% with that entity's platform. Such people are usually described as 'moderate (affiliation)'.
What I don't want to see is what happened to the Magus, where everyone has the same optimal weapon and there really is no flavor or diversity.
A certain selection of people will play top tier no matter what. It's what they do. Some do it to expose flaws in the game. Others do it because their play group is weak enough tactically and/or build-wise that they have to play stronger to prevent TPKs. Others do it for less admirable reasons.
I would rather not be punished because of what some other people do.
Its problem with being so MAD, the fact that the blessings are standard actions when they'd be more appropriate on a front liner as swift, or even simply suggesting new and/or revised class mechanics other than the issue with favored weapons. There are all kinds of possibilities, and you never know; it could be one of us that provides the devs with the inspiration for that one change that makes the class awesome.What else is there to discuss?I have said it a few times, it's been implied by others, but honestly, I want to see this class get somewhere, not a back and forth about the weapons it is using.
Until we hear from the devs about the weapon, can we please table this part of the discussion? I would like to see people suggest ways to improve the class.
Actually, at this point, I think there have been a lot of GREAT ideas and no comments made by the devs to give us a clue if we are having any weight here or if we aren't in the right realm. Even if it is simply to say: "We know this class needs love, these are the things we are looking at...."
Itd be neat if the Battle Companions were Swift actions but you could only ever have one up at a time like that.
Swift Action Flank Partner with a Smiting Lion anyone?
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Okay, after doing my best to read through the previous 19 pages. I am going to agree with a lot of posters that the Warpriest is missing the WAR part.
I tend to favor favored weapons of a deity. A follower would normally want to imitate their God. Followers of Thor using hammers is one example. I just would expect to see followers of Surtur using flaming greatswords. This is just flavor I know but I like what I like. Giving the class increased ability with the weapon might help this a lot.
I also like the idea of the blessings. This helps add to the flavor and theme of the character. I like some of the blessings (ala the more combat oriented ones). There needs to be some work here, but from both a mechanical as well as a flavor point this can work.
However, right now the class is too MAD dependent and too poor at combat. How do you fix this?
1. Moving the class to a full BAB / d10/ 4 level spells or adding spell combat would add sting to the class. This is sorely missing atm.
2. Replace channeling with a non charisma based combat ability or move spell casting to charisma. The class simply needs too many stats atm and these are the only fixes that I can easily see.
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Actually I just realized that people who have been spouting Charisma casting is only for spontaneous divine casters are full of it.
The Paladin is a prepared charisma based caster.
Lets do it. Warpriest prepared Charisma based caster. This reduces the MADness.
Well, wisdom isn't a dump for anyone really, and charisma is optional. You still want least spell level in wisdom, and you would like to not totally dump charisma probably(though this class isn't big on channeling imo...) So its not the worst thing in the world, still not the most amazing either.Still on favored weapon I see. Whelp, time for me to go against the grain!
Warpriest: It's too danged multiple attribute dependent. This should be corrected.
Reiteration of an earlier statement is go.
You know: I don't know if that is true? Wisdom does not necessarily need to be that high if the class is not relying on save effects. And if they get swift action heals or something eventually, it is conceivable that they could drop con a bit.
My guess is that everyone is gonna drop charisma too because the channel progression is so lackluster.
Yeah. That is all true. I would really rather see channel replaced with something else or at a bare minimum rekeyed to wisdom. I think the current version is pretty underpowered as it stands in general, though.
Something has to be done about action economy before I would ever play it over a cleric. Armor boosts take a standard. Most blessings are standard actions (most weaker than spells). It is too hard to get things done in a turn. There are also the issues with the sacred weapon being limited, but I am done talking about that. All that needs to be said has been said.
I would like to see changes made and I think those changes need to keep the MAD problem in mind.
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ciretose: A 'penalty' I've been glad to live with on the builds that use it, because getting to pick another domain of your choice usually makes up for it quite well.
The point I'm getting at is that I don't agree with the 'absolutism' in a lot of your posts on this topic. There is room to disagree with even a deity (remember, they are explicitly not all-powerful or all-knowing) on topics of their faith... and even weapon choice.
I can easily see a Warpriest of Desna looking at a starknife and saying, "You know... I get what you're going for from a symbolism and philosophy aspect, but this thing is not a good primary weapon for my combat style*. If I'm going to be going out there I need to fight the way I'm comfortable with. I'm going to focus on glaives/greataxes/whatever."
*: Yes, this is even with the weapon group adjustments you discussed.
Edit, replying to Scavion: I would love this! It adds some flavor, does something a little unusual compared to its direct peer (the Cleric), and adds a story hook; the warpriest could have an evangelical aspect to them where they go out and try to win new followers to their faith.
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Until we hear from the devs about the weapon, can we please table this part of the discussion? I would like to see people suggest ways to improve the class.Actually, at this point, I think there have been a lot of GREAT ideas and no comments made by the devs to give us a clue if we are having any weight here or if we aren't in the right realm. Even if it is simply to say: "We know this class needs love, these are the things we are looking at...."
Unfortunately, warpriest is Jason's class and he is focused on the Arcanist rewrite, so we may have to wait for him to get past that particular hump til we get any feedback from the devs.
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Actually I just realized that people who have been spouting Charisma casting is only for spontaneous divine casters are full of it.
The Paladin is a prepared charisma based caster.
Lets do it. Warpriest prepared Charisma based caster. This reduces the MADness.
... You know, I'd actually be completely okay with that. If they did that, it would feel a lot like ye olde favored soul from 3.5e, and lemme tell you something. Those things were all kinds of mean. In fact, I'd love to see them get turned into something like favored souls, because favored souls were freaking awesome.
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"I need three good stats and 1 piddling one, and one that's at least 10. Whaaaaa, this class is too MAD, and no one will play it."
That's basically the vibe I'm getting here.
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"I need three good stats and 1 piddling one, and one that's at least 10. This class is too MAD, and no one will play it."
That's basically the vibe I'm getting here.
Most other classes have only one or two stats that are of particular importance to them. For clerics, it is both their WIS and their CHA. Paladins in Pathfinder, unlike failadins in 3.5e, don't need to run their WIS up as they once did. They're good on just STR and CHA to get the job done. The warpriest, meanwhile, needs martial stats, a good wisdom score and will need a decent CHA if you have any intention at all of making its channel work as more than a heal.
Clerics can also have this weakness if you want to build one that is more martially inclined, obviously.
Or should we move on to other ideas where players don't get mechanically screwed with awful weapons just to force them into a flavor option?
(For what it's worth, I'm now imagining the Church of Pharasma telling the low-level Warpriest to go handle the gaggle of skeletons that's been haunting the graveyard; but oh, don't forget your dagger! /facepalm. )
Making the mechanics fit the flavor is an options here, and a good one. That's the beauty of (potentially) being able to influence the design of a class BEFORE it's released, trying to steer around design pitfalls like pigeonholing classes because of flavor, instead of letting the class work with the restrictions (not against them like a Druid or Paladin).
For example, daggers and starknives suck. Mostly because they're throwing weapons in a game where throwing weapons are either expensive ("Welp. I just tossed 18k gold at a man.") or useless.
Now, what happens when the Warpriest can pick up a dagger and it suddenly becomes enchanted?
Toss the dagger, hit an enemy, it loses enchantment after it strikes (or misses), Quick Draw another dagger, it's still enchanted, and so on. And they also Return for you so you don't have to keep buying cheap-o ones either.
Suddenly, not as sucky. Still not the best option, but that is sadly how the game is designed. You can't beat archery for ranged or 2H fighting for melee in most scenarios.
But at the very least this option A.) Allows for battle priests of more gods than usual and B.) In a roundabout way makes those fighting styles more worthwhile.
You're missing the entirety of my (sarcastic) point.
Pharasma hates undead. She wants her followers to destroy undead. Pathfinder Devs decided her favorite weapon is a dagger. So you're telling me that Pharasma is happy with her Warpriest who literally cannot hurt a skeleton because he's too busy using the wrong weapon for the job, in an effort to appease her?I don't buy that.
Look, the idea of tying mechanics to flavor is fine. But the flavor has to be designed with that in mind if it's ever going to work well. Deity favored weapons were absolutely not designed with mechanical effectiveness in mind - My point about Mystra and shuriken from above still stands as an example of that.
"I need three good stats and 1 piddling one, and one that's at least 10. This class is too MAD, and no one will play it."
That's basically the vibe I'm getting here.
As with melee clerics, I want a wisdom at least equal to my spell level, maybe more. I want an okay strength, I mean I can buff it but that full plate is heavy bro, and it is part of my whacking things! I can't dump dex until way late into the game and its not smart to keep it too low either, and it scales so many things its hard not to want to keep it at least a little high up there. I really want con, that's just a no brainer. Intellect I don't want to dump but looks really dumpable right now. And... I want a not low charisma but I can't definitely go without pumping it.
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To go back to the action economy for a minute (if only as a break from all this favored weapon back and forth), what is the preferred solution for the action economy?
I suggested per-day swift action casting, but this carries the problems of heavy competition in the class for the swift action (competing with Sacred Weapon, Sacred Armor, and some of the blessings).
Soon thereafter, someone else suggested simply cribbing Spell Combat from the magus. I'd personally rather not simply copy-paste another class's class ability, especially since I'd rather not imply (or explicitly rule) that the warpriest is limited to a single-handed weapon and a free hand.
Lately the suggestion has come up to allow basically 3.5 Persistent Spell as a class feature, but frankly not only could that be a real balance problem (Clericzilla was that way for a reason), but thematically I think it's better to be calling up the deity's power and aid in battle while in battle rather than simply turning on the power of the gods like a light switch at the beginning of the day and leaving it on (which strikes me as a bit presumptuous, really).
Thoughts?
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Alceste008, I think you're right. One of the biggest problems with the class right now is that it is way past MAD, but I think it's because the warpriest tries to do way too much without really bringing anything to the table. This guy is supposed to be the ass-kicking warrior whose crusades are fully endorsed by a powerful deity. He is all about the war, whereas a paladin is (generally) more of a noble protector and champion of justice. If we narrow down what this character is about and what he does, we can narrow it down to what stats he needs.
Personally, I think the warpriest should only ever need three ability scores: Constitution, Charisma and Strength or Dexterity depending on whether his weapon. His spells should work off his CHA score (like the paladin) and he has no more need for INT than the fighter. This way he'll be no more or less MAD than most other classes.
Let's open up another can of worms: What if he were a spontaneous caster? It might be an idea worth exploring to further differentiate the class. Maybe instead of learning divine rites and prayers to cast, like the paladin and cleric, he is a font of holy energy (like the oracle) shaped into righteous destruction?
The old favored soul was also a spontaneous caster, and definitely one of the more amusing classes to play if done well. This is something I can definitely back, and it would make sense thematically as well. A person who goes to war for their deity might not have time to sit around and choose their spells. They might be mid-war and have to move on as soon as they've managed to get a good night's sleep.
That being said, I wouldn't hold my breath on it. It ceases being a mixture of fighter and cleric once we get into changing how its spells work to that agree. I'd love it if they did this, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
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I'd just like to remind everyone that Irori's favored weapon is unarmed strikes. Favored weapons are just bad for a class feature.Because fighting unarmed isn't a thing that exists...I believe the point is more that unarmed strikes can't normally be enchanted and provoke attacks of opportunity unless you have the improved unarmed strike. Making sacred weapon either unusable or an exception to the norm, and making using it dangerous without an additional feat or special ability being added to the warpriest.
Though I could be mistaken.
Just wanted to say that there is a precedent for granting Imp. Unarmed Strike to classes granted proficiency in their diety's favored weapon if said diety's favored weapon is unarmed strikes, such as Clerics, and I believe Inquisitors, of Irori.
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To go back to the action economy for a minute (if only as a break from all this favored weapon back and forth), what is the preferred solution for the action economy?
I suggested per-day swift action casting, but this carries the problems of heavy competition in the class for the swift action (competing with Sacred Weapon, Sacred Armor, and some of the blessings).
Soon thereafter, someone else suggested simply cribbing Spell Combat from the magus. I'd personally rather not simply copy-paste another class's class ability, especially since I'd rather not imply (or explicitly rule) that the warpriest is limited to a single-handed weapon and a free hand.
Lately the suggestion has come up to allow basically 3.5 Persistent Spell as a class feature, but frankly not only could that be a real balance problem (Clericzilla was that way for a reason), but thematically I think it's better to be calling up the deity's power and aid in battle while in battle rather than simply turning on the power of the gods like a light switch at the beginning of the day and leaving it on (which strikes me as a bit presumptuous, really).
Thoughts?
It would create balance issues, yes. However, the warpriest pretty much /needs/ those buffs in order to even be competitive at the thing it's supposed to do best. The fight will probably be over one way or the other by the time you're done putting all of your buffs on in the current setup. This is also a problem.
Personally, I think the warpriest should only ever need three ability scores: Constitution, Charisma and Strength or Dexterity depending on whether his weapon. His spells should work off his CHA score (like the paladin) and he has no more need for INT than the fighter. This way he'll be no more or less MAD than most other classes.
Let's open up another can of worms: What if he were a spontaneous caster? It might be an idea worth exploring to further differentiate the class. Maybe instead of learning divine rites and prayers to cast, like the paladin and cleric, he is a font of holy energy (like the oracle) shaped into righteous destruction?
Swap Charisma for Wisdom and you just described the Inquisitor. ;P
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Moving to Cha casting is something I pitched a few pages ago, but it might have gotten lost in other noise. Still like the idea; I want Cha to be used in more characters, even if it means a slight decrease in overall power level as a result. Personally, I'd be glad to allow Will Saves to be tied to Cha or Wis, but this is wandering off topic. At any rate, Cha-based heroes and villains are something I really dig.
We could even build some mechanics around this. I'm not saying my 'evangelist' idea is the definite way to go, but just to float up some examples... the Warpriest could be rewarded for attracting kindred spirits. Maybe a Warpriest of Milani gets some benefits when they bring an Azata onto the field, and a Warpriest of Asmodeus gets benefits for bringing Devils in. This specific idea probably has tons of holes, please don't bother destroying it at length as I am not seriously proposing it to begin with. It's solely an example of something mechanically distinct that could serve as further fuel for thought on what to do to make a Warpriest unusual compared to its peers.
the Warpriest could be rewarded for attracting kindred spirits. Maybe a Warpriest of Milani gets some benefits when they bring an Azata onto the field, and a Warpriest of Asmodeus gets benefits for bringing Devils in. This specific idea probably has tons of holes, please don't bother destroying it at length as I am not seriously proposing it to begin with. It's solely an example of something mechanically distinct that could serve as further fuel for thought on what to do to make a Warpriest unusual compared to its peers.
Actually there is a class that does that already kind of if you want to compare, the anti-paladin's fiendish boon.
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I think the Inquisitor is the spontaneous caster, so that ship has sailed.
I don't like the swift casting as I think that just opens up a whole other can of worms. I get what you are saying about wanting to be able to buff quickly, but I don't think you should have that come without also increasing the level of the spell.
I think if you want buffs to the class, make them added directly to the class as a feature, not though modifications of spells that already have assigned levels and powers.
It would create balance issues, yes. However, the warpriest pretty much /needs/ those buffs in order to even be competitive at the thing it's supposed to do best. The fight will probably be over one way or the other by the time you're done putting all of your buffs on in the current setup. This is also a problem.To go back to the action economy for a minute (if only as a break from all this favored weapon back and forth), what is the preferred solution for the action economy?
I suggested per-day swift action casting, but this carries the problems of heavy competition in the class for the swift action (competing with Sacred Weapon, Sacred Armor, and some of the blessings).
Soon thereafter, someone else suggested simply cribbing Spell Combat from the magus. I'd personally rather not simply copy-paste another class's class ability, especially since I'd rather not imply (or explicitly rule) that the warpriest is limited to a single-handed weapon and a free hand.
Lately the suggestion has come up to allow basically 3.5 Persistent Spell as a class feature, but frankly not only could that be a real balance problem (Clericzilla was that way for a reason), but thematically I think it's better to be calling up the deity's power and aid in battle while in battle rather than simply turning on the power of the gods like a light switch at the beginning of the day and leaving it on (which strikes me as a bit presumptuous, really).
Thoughts?
That exactly. Which buff solution do you really think is better though?
I am still leaning towards spell combat (for just harmless spells that target you) as a better choice than the permanency solution simply due to the cleric-zilla problem. The spell combat idea still would make the Warpriest take a few rounds to build up to full power rather than just always be "on".| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To go back to the action economy for a minute (if only as a break from all this favored weapon back and forth), what is the preferred solution for the action economy?
I would like to see the Warpriest be able to, a limited number of times per day, cast a buff or a healing spell as part of a charge or full-attack action. The limiter on this could be a flat X number of times per day, or it could be tied to a 'divine pool' as some posters have suggested. I think it would be flavorful as heck (I charge at my foe screaming a battle-chant to my god, and am imbued with his power), and would allow the class its own little niche.
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That exactly. Which buff solution do you really think is better though?
I am still leaning towards spell combat (for just harmless spells that target you) as a better choice than the permanency solution simply due to the cleric-zilla problem. The spell combat idea still would make the Warpriest take a few rounds to build up to full...
I'm actually kind of undecided between the options you guys are presenting. On the one hand, the warpriest setup right now will prevent a repeat of clericzilla for the most part. Besides that, you can recreate clericzilla at almost full power with two levels of fighter followed by nothing but cleric. On the other, I do like how magi play, and it would provide a means of quick-casting buffs, heals and/or inflict spells without completely dropping them out of the fight or doing ye olde persistent spell. >_> But I think I'd enjoy the old persistent spell, mostly because---wait, I just had an idea.
Why not give them different self-buff auras that are just static, but count as an enhancement bonus to prevent buff stacking? Maybe have one offer a +2 to STR, one for dex, one for con, and one for CHA. Or drop the one for con and just do STR, DEX, CHA. That way this will not stop the player from wanting to purchase magic items, as they would trump actual buff spells or the related belts/headbands/whatever. Furthermore, these enhancements would never count as "permanent" for the purposes of qualifying for feats or most class mechanics. They also would not be able to use more than one of these at a time.
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I think a lot of the problems could be solved if blessings could be interchangeable with domains (Like inquisitions). Because growth subdomain alone can solve action economy with swift actions. But since not a lot of gods offer plant domain, its probably more of a band-aid.
I would be inclined to allow the swift action buffing, because that allows a decent buff to be added in combat. I would limit it to self buffs only (no swift blessings of fervor for the party), and limit times/day.
I am starting to come around to the idea of spell combat. I do think they should use their full level in place of BAB for feat prereqs though. that just seems more WAR-y to me.
Let me just spitball some alternate ideas:
Give the Warpriest the power to activate certain spells after a successful attack.
Give the Warpriest some access to spell-like abilities that she can access for a few rounds by spending prepared spells. Spell-like abilities for low levels (like in exchange for level 1 prepared spells):
-Enlarge person on self
-Divine favor
-Bless
-cure light wounds on self
-Extra spells based on blessings
Give the Warpriest some spells that he or she can cast in advance as a 1 minute ritual but activate when she score a weapon attack.
yeah I really don't see the MAD issues being too big of a concern.
20pt buy before racials
Str - 16
Dex - 10
Con - 14
Int - 10
Wis - 14
Cha - 10
this is a perfectly fine stat array for the warpriest, and early access to heavy armor means that they are actually a bit better off than the Magus at earlier levels. Divine Power/Favor/Righteous Might... all of these help to solidify their combat abilities and make up for the low BAB and Wisdom requirement.
You really do not need to start with a high wisdom. You can focus on buffs, cures, restorations, etc. without losing much.
If you end up with a 16 wis, then that is just fine.
Nobody seemed to notice my earlier post.
Currently, rules as written, the Warpriest suffers no ill effects for violating their god's rules. Dip for a level, get weapon focus, "Peace out Lamashtu, I'm going to join team Good as a Paladin. Thanks for the feats!" Continue in whatever your multiclass. Somehow I think Lamashtu might have some beef with that.
Which elements vanish upon turning your back on the faith? Just channeling, spells, and blessings or do the bonus feats and magic blades vanish too?
Or should we move on to other ideas where players don't get mechanically screwed with awful weapons just to force them into a flavor option?
(For what it's worth, I'm now imagining the Church of Pharasma telling the low-level Warpriest to go handle the gaggle of skeletons that's been haunting the graveyard; but oh, don't forget your dagger! /facepalm. )
Making the mechanics fit the flavor is an options here, and a good one. That's the beauty of (potentially) being able to influence the design of a class BEFORE it's released, trying to steer around design pitfalls like pigeonholing classes because of flavor, instead of letting the class work with the restrictions (not against them like a Druid or Paladin).
For example, daggers and starknives suck. Mostly because they're throwing weapons in a game where throwing weapons are either expensive ("Welp. I just tossed 18k gold at a man.") or useless.
Now, what happens when the Warpriest can pick up a dagger and it suddenly becomes enchanted?
Toss the dagger, hit an enemy, it loses enchantment after it strikes (or misses), Quick Draw another dagger, it's still enchanted, and so on. And they also Return for you so you don't have to keep buying cheap-o ones either.
Suddenly, not as sucky. Still not the best option, but that is sadly how the game is designed. You can't beat archery for ranged or 2H fighting for melee in most scenarios.
But at the very least this option A.) Allows for battle priests of more gods than usual and B.) In a roundabout way makes those fighting styles more worthwhile.
You're missing the entirety of my (sarcastic) point.
Pharasma hates undead. She wants her followers to destroy undead. Pathfinder Devs decided her favorite weapon is a dagger. So you're telling me that Pharasma is happy with her Warpriest who literally cannot hurt a skeleton because he's too busy using the wrong weapon for the job, in an effort to appease her?I don't buy that.
Look, the idea of tying...
I don't see the problem. Just as not all churches have paladins, not all of them will have war priests. Clerics, Oracles and Inquisitors are still very capable of filling the isles, you know?
That exactly. Which buff solution do you really think is better though?
I am still leaning towards spell combat (for just harmless spells that target you) as a better choice than the permanency solution simply due to the cleric-zilla problem. The spell combat idea still would make the Warpriest take a few rounds to build up to full...I'm actually kind of undecided between the options you guys are presenting. On the one hand, the warpriest setup right now will prevent a repeat of clericzilla for the most part. Besides that, you can recreate clericzilla at almost full power with two levels of fighter followed by nothing but cleric. On the other, I do like how magi play, and it would provide a means of quick-casting buffs, heals and/or inflict spells without completely dropping them out of the fight or doing ye olde persistent spell. >_> But I think I'd enjoy the old persistent spell, mostly because---wait, I just had an idea.
Why not give them different self-buff auras that are just static, but count as an enhancement bonus to prevent buff stacking? Maybe have one offer a +2 to STR, one for dex, one for con, and one for CHA. Or drop the one for con and just do STR, DEX, CHA. That way this will not stop the player from wanting to purchase magic items, as they would trump actual buff spells or the related belts/headbands/whatever. Furthermore, these enhancements would never count as "permanent" for the purposes of qualifying for feats or most class mechanics. They also would not be able to use more than one of these at a time.
I still think they would fall a bit behind there. I do like magic auras, but maybe not attribute buffs? How about the spell-like ability idea, I just threw out?
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yeah I really don't see the MAD issues being too big of a concern.
20pt buy before racials
Str - 16
Dex - 10
Con - 14
Int - 10
Wis - 14
Cha - 10this is a perfectly fine stat array for the warpriest, and early access to heavy armor means that they are actually a bit better off than the Magus at earlier levels. Divine Power/Favor/Righteous Might... all of these help to solidify their combat abilities and make up for the low BAB and Wisdom requirement.
You really do not need to start with a high wisdom. You can focus on buffs, cures, restorations, etc. without losing much.
If you end up with a 16 wis, then that is just fine.
Not everyone wants to be locked into playing them as a healer. Some of us want to apply their abilities offensively, and as such would be taking a negative energy route as opposed to the healing route. This decision takes the class, that as a healer is already somewhat MAD, and makes it explode into MADness.
To excaliburproxy: The spell-like abilities would be nice, actually.
Okay, I feel the need to weigh in on this Favored Weapon thing... I have been avoiding it, because I don't have strong feelings about it one way or another.
But here it is... I prefer using the Deity's Favored Weapon for flavor.
I get why that might suck for some deities.
Still, flavor > mechanics IMO.
As a separate argument, if a warpriest could pick any weapon, then they could still get a benefit with their deity's favored weapon by using this feat:
GUIDED HAND
Prerequisite: Channel energy class feature, Channel Smite, proficiency with your deity’s favored weapon.
Benefit: With your deity’s favored weapon, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier on attack rolls.
Not a guarantee that this is a good way to go... but at leastt it is something.
Okay, I feel the need to weigh in on this Favored Weapon thing... I have been avoiding it, because I don't have strong feelings about it one way or another.
But here it is... I prefer using the Deity's Favored Weapon for flavor.
I get why that might suck for some deities.
Still, flavor > mechanics IMO.As a separate argument, if a warpriest could pick any weapon, then they could still get a benefit with their deity's favored weapon by using this feat:
GUIDED HAND
Prerequisite: Channel energy class feature, Channel Smite, proficiency with your deity’s favored weapon.
Benefit: With your deity’s favored weapon, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier on attack rolls.
Not a guarantee that this is a good way to go... but at leastt it is something.
That is actually super interesting. It would benefit deities with range weapons most though. Then you could build strength/wisdom fight in melee as usual and fight at range without worrying about dex ever. There would also be dipping problems. Still: maybe some feats exclusively for favored weapons with warpreist level prerequisites could make the whole world smile.