|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why exactly would one think that? Does the clerics of Desna regularly use starblades in your campaign? Do the Paladins of Iomedae all use longswords?
It's only a construct of this speciffic class, and I regard it as a bad one, as it limits player choice, in both deity and weapon.
No they don't, specifically because of the problems you noted.
Which is why I would like a class that encourages them to do so.
I don't want to play GURPS. I like when clerics to actually worship the gods that are giving them spells and are encouraged to use the favored weapon of the god they worship.
Crazy I know...
|
|
edit: Ninja'd by Arae Garven
And my response to you is the same.
I think it is bad design to have the same weapons used over and over and to not flavor.
I think it is pathetic how many Scimitar Magus there are, and I view that as poor design.
Creating a class where the construction will vary greatly depending on which god you select, on the other hand, is great class design IMHO.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why exactly would one think that? Does the clerics of Desna regularly use starblades in your campaign? Do the Paladins of Iomedae all use longswords?
It's only a construct of this speciffic class, and I regard it as a bad one, as it limits player choice, in both deity and weapon.
No they don't, specifically because of the problems you noted.
Which is why I would like a class that encourages them to do so.
Force them. Make them. Don't give them choices. They don't deserve it! When they want their warpriest of Erastil to use a sword tell them they chose the wrong class or deity!
Not a healthy way of thinking if you ask me. Options can be pretty healthy. Atm its not so much of a reason to use as forcing someone to use something.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why exactly would one think that? Does the clerics of Desna regularly use starblades in your campaign? Do the Paladins of Iomedae all use longswords?
It's only a construct of this speciffic class, and I regard it as a bad one, as it limits player choice, in both deity and weapon.
No they don't, specifically because of the problems you noted.
Which is why I would like a class that encourages them to do so.
I don't want to play GURPS. I like when clerics to actually worship the gods that are giving them spells and are encouraged to use the favored weapon of the god they worship.
Crazy I know...
I understand where you are coming from. I'm saying that right now, it's mechanically unfeasible to play a warpriest of Desna, and I think it should be mechanically feasible.
I think doing it your way would mean them writing too much material: A blob for every god to make their weapon viable.
Which is why I say that instead of doing that, as it seems there's issues with the amount of space in the books anyway, we let them use whatever weapon they want to with Sacred weapon, and cut away the Focus Weapon feature. The class is already too front-loaded regardless.
Edit; Expanding upon your reply Zark, I kind of agree with MrSin here.
I think forcing some warpriests to be worse than others simply to make sure sub-par weapons "gets used" is just as bad design as having some weapons go un-used.
People keep throwing around the word "Viable" without any context. "Viable" does not mean necessary, and it doesn't mean ideal: It means being able to get the job done.
Are you in a party? Do the need some support and some combat prowess? Don't wanna be sneaky, or hide in the shadows? Wanna have a cool signature weapon? Don't wanna deal with finnicky codes of conduct? Warpriest is there for you.
Viable means "If paired with a party of 2-3 other members, can you overcome a challenge of a difficulty level roughly similar to the party's?" No more, no less, and Warpriest is DEFINITELY viable.
Yes, but you can sub "Inquisitor" for "Warpriest" and will have a better character which fills all those roles you mentioned. AND can be sneaky and hide in shadows. And have way more skills, too. Also, a better spell list.
|
The real problem is Sacred Weapon (which is the ability that helps your attack and damage numbers keep up with other combatant-types) only works with your focus weapon which, if you worship a deity, must be your deity's favored weapon.
Anyway here's my proposal for an action economy ability: Starting at 2nd level, a Warpriest gets the ability to cast 1 spell per day with a duration of 1 hour/level as a Favored Blessing. The effect of a favored blessing lasts 24 hours, and if dispelled is only suppressed for a few rounds (just like a magic item).
At 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, a Warpriest can cast one more favored blessing per day.
At 7th level, the ability also works for spells with a duration of 10 minutes/level. At 12th level, it works for spells that last 1 minute/level. And at 17th level, it works for spells that last 1 round/level.
I like this idea a lot. I would add the following:
1) It should only apply to personal or touch-range spells.
2) It should only apply to spells the Warpriest casts on himself.
3) If the enemy succeeds on their dispel check by 10 or more, they should be able to strip the buff entirely instead of just suppressing it. This gives dedicated dispellers a chance to do their thing, namely to depower heavily buffed attackers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Agree. That is why I don't want a melee Warpriest be "forced" using a ranged weapon.Don't pick a god who favors a ranged weapon.
I see. I should pick a god based on its weapon. So it is pick a weapon not a god.
That is just as much roll player not role player as playing a character that worships a god, but uses a weapon other than his/her god.
This whole, "you are doing it wrong if you are not using your gods weapon" does come of as a bit hypocritical if you base your pick of god based on the weapon.
Cleric players do pick God or/and domains than are right in flavor but just as much because it is right in power. Saying anything else is simply not true.
Also, a better spell list.Because access to all the cleric spells is worse than access to some of them...
The Warpriest needs a boost, but comments like this aren't helpful.
Come now, you state that his entire comment is crap because the last sentence taken out of context is of disputable value?
|
|
I would think picking a God would be more central for a divine worshiper than picking a weapon...
And here the flavor vs mechanics world collide and countdown someone screams "STORMWIND!!!"
*sigh*
Why is it remotely controversial to encourage a class with the flavor of being the warrior for a given god to use the favored weapon of that god.
But yes, the god of optimization trumps flavor...
Just out of curiosity, what do you think about giving warpriests a kind of extend metamagic feature for buff spells that are applied to them ciretose?
I dont mean to be off putting to anyone in this thread, but I don't think your going to find consensus on the weapon issue, so perhaps it would be best to let sleeping dogs lie so to speak.
|
|
Come now, you state that his entire comment is crap because the last sentence taken out of context is of disputable value?Also, a better spell list.Because access to all the cleric spells is worse than access to some of them...
The Warpriest needs a boost, but comments like this aren't helpful.
It was unhelpful because it didn't add anything helpful.
The part I included was, in addition to being unhelpful, wrong.
You and I disagree. That comment was disagreeable.
Disagreement is toward a common goal of improvement.
Disagreeable is just unhelpful.
|
|
That weapon buff schtick would be so great. You don't need to stand still and spend four rounds buffing just to still fall short of both clerics and fighters if their buffs are already on. Then they can spend a single extra round casting righteous might so they can to still fail to keep up with their original classes.
Hm, that came out a lot more cynical than I anticipated. I do think the buff boosts would be a wonderful idea, but it's only a single piece of the puzzle. A GREAT first step though.
|
|
Just out of curiosity, what do you think about giving warpriests a kind of extend metamagic feature for buff spells that are applied to them ciretose?
I dont mean to be off putting to anyone in this thread, but I don't think your going to find consensus on the weapon issue, so perhaps it would be best to let sleeping dogs lie so to speak.
I think it focuses on the wrong issue.
It is a 6 level caster. It will not cast as well as a full caster, nor should it.
Now in trade, it should be able to fight...hence "War" priest.
I think that is where any change should occur.
Come now, you state that his entire comment is crap because the last sentence taken out of context is of disputable value?Also, a better spell list.Because access to all the cleric spells is worse than access to some of them...
The Warpriest needs a boost, but comments like this aren't helpful.
Well, aside from two spells (Blessing of Fervor and Air Walk), the Inquisitor drinks the Clerics milkshake right up. Vital spells like Expeditious Retreat, See Invisibility, Invisibility, Heroism, Greater Invisibility and Stoneskin simply aren't available to most Clerics.
Why is it remotely controversial to encourage a class with the flavor of being the warrior for a given god to use the favored weapon of that god.
Encouragement is different than forcing. Encouraging is "Here, get a cool thing!" but forcing is "your class features require you to use this!"
There also isn't a huge reason not to give people choice. If they want the deity's favored weapon, they can go for it! if not, hey, don't have to. There are numerous reasons they might not want to use that weapon too.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think about giving warpriests a kind of extend metamagic feature for buff spells that are applied to them ciretose?
I dont mean to be off putting to anyone in this thread, but I don't think your going to find consensus on the weapon issue, so perhaps it would be best to let sleeping dogs lie so to speak.
I think it focuses on the wrong issue.
It is a 6 level caster. It will not cast as well as a full caster, nor should it.
Now in trade, it should be able to fight...hence "War" priest.
I think that is where any change should occur.
How does the warpriest ever become better than a cleric at casting? extend metamagic for buff spells seems to be very consistent with a combat focused warrior priest theme.
I would think picking a God would be more central for a divine worshiper than picking a weapon...
And here the flavor vs mechanics world collide and countdown someone screams "STORMWIND!!!"
*sigh*
Why is it remotely controversial to encourage a class with the flavor of being the warrior for a given god to use the favored weapon of that god.
But yes, the god of optimization trumps flavor...
out of curiosity what is stormwind? i've seen the term tossed around a few times bit i haven't been able to figure it out.
Why is it remotely controversial to encourage a class with the flavor of being the warrior for a given god to use the favored weapon of that god.Encouragement is different than forcing. Encouraging is "Here, get a cool thing!" but forcing is "your class features require you to use this!"
There also isn't a huge reason not to give people choice. If they want the deity's favored weapon, they can go for it! if not, hey, don't have to. There are numerous reasons they might not want to use that weapon too.
i think the problem is, as is a lot of gods have sub optimal favored weapons, now ideally the priests of that god should use those weapons anyway but the only way to make those weapons more appealing than say, just a longsword is to offer these big exclusive bonuses.
|
|
Well, aside from two spells (Blessing of Fervor and Air Walk), the Inquisitor drinks the Clerics milkshake right up. Vital spells like Expeditious Retreat, See Invisibility, Invisibility, Heroism, Greater Invisibility and Stoneskin simply aren't available to most Clerics.
And the Warpriest can change then out every day...
Do you have anything to add or are you just here to show you are smarter than the Devs who did it wrong?
Some of us would like to actually make suggestions.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why is it remotely controversial to encourage a class with the flavor of being the warrior for a given god to use the favored weapon of that god.Encouragement is different than forcing. Encouraging is "Here, get a cool thing!" but forcing is "your class features require you to use this!"
There also isn't a huge reason not to give people choice. If they want the deity's favored weapon, they can go for it! if not, hey, don't have to. There are numerous reasons they might not want to use that weapon too.
If you don't want flavor, play GURPS.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
out of curiosity what is stormwind? i've seen the term tossed around a few times bit i haven't been able to figure it out.I would think picking a God would be more central for a divine worshiper than picking a weapon...
And here the flavor vs mechanics world collide and countdown someone screams "STORMWIND!!!"
*sigh*
Why is it remotely controversial to encourage a class with the flavor of being the warrior for a given god to use the favored weapon of that god.
But yes, the god of optimization trumps flavor...
Stormwind Fallacy. Here's the main part.
This logical fallacy is from a discussion long ago on the Wizards of the Coast Dungeons & Dragons message board by a user named Tempest Stormwind. The basic premise of the fallacy describe the differences between a Roleplayer and a Rollplayer, and how both are exclusive to each other. In layman's terms, you can both optimize your character and be a great roleplayer. You are not one or the other.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
out of curiosity what is stormwind? i've seen the term tossed around a few times bit i haven't been able to figure it out.
The Stormwind Fallacy is the idea that people who are good at optimizing their characters are automatically bad at roleplaying, and vice-versa. It's a fallacy because you can easily do both, or neither!
ciretose is invoking the fallacy when he says things like "If you don't want flavor, play GURPS." As if having a flavorful character concept and having an effectively built character are mutually exclusive. As if using your deity's favored weapon is the sole difference between a flavorful Warpriest character and an unflavorful one.
If you don't want flavor, play GURPS.Why is it remotely controversial to encourage a class with the flavor of being the warrior for a given god to use the favored weapon of that god.Encouragement is different than forcing. Encouraging is "Here, get a cool thing!" but forcing is "your class features require you to use this!"
There also isn't a huge reason not to give people choice. If they want the deity's favored weapon, they can go for it! If not, hey, don't have to. There are numerous reasons they might not want to use that weapon too.
How dare I want to choose what I do, I must be a terrible person!
Or maybe its the guy condemning me and telling me I'm playing the wrong game who has a problem, eh? Didn't even respond to the post. Just told me to play another game.
The solution to this problem is to simply make Sacred Weapon not key off your Deity's Favored Weapon. If you want to encourage folks to use their Deity's Favored Weapon, let it count as a divine focus and as a free hand for somatic gestures.
There. Incentive to use your Deity's Favored Weapon and we don't cripple folks who want to roll other weapons.
|
Adding a special ability based on Domain or Deity choice to the Warpriest would help mitigate some of the penalties of using sub-optimal weapons (not, I didn't say unviable, just sub-optimal), and make players feel more like Warriors when wielding distinctly uncharacteristically warrior weapons.
Adding the Returning weapon property as a weapon enchantment for Desna followers, or maybe increasing starknife damage or crit range would be a great start. Maybe Warpriests of Nethys gain access to a melee-range spell-like ability while wielding a staff, or perhaps a Warpriest of Pharasma can add the Undead-bane quality to her dagger, and daggers ignore damage reduction of undead.
I mean, those are all rudimentary things, but they're distinctly flavorful, and encourage using your deity favored weapon in a way beyond bashing the heads in of things (creating an environment that encourages having multiple weapons, ala Fighter).
The Warpriest could use a little more bite as a warrior beyond spells (a place I think slow-progression weapon training might help, or perhaps the ability to deal flat bonus damage based on your channel energy dice?), and should then REALLY shine while wielding his deity's favored weapon, possibly more-so than most other divine character wielding it, at least in combat-heavy situations.
|
|
out of curiosity what is stormwind? i've seen the term tossed around a few times bit i haven't been able to figure it out.The Stormwind Fallacy is the idea that people who are good at optimizing their characters are automatically bad at roleplaying, and vice-versa. It's a fallacy because you can easily do both, or neither!
ciretose is invoking the fallacy when he says things like "If you don't want flavor, play GURPS." As if having a flavorful character concept and having an effectively built character are mutually exclusive.
It is most often cited by people who think that making the optimal weapon not be optimal is cruel, and people who don't understand that "can" and "are" mean the same thing.
As in you "can" do both, but "are" you doing both or just trying to find a way to make your numbers "win"?
In this instance, having a God of a divine class show favor to the Gods favored weapon is viewed unfavorably as it prevents the player from ignoring the flavor of the class.
See how that works.
It is most often generally cited by people who think that making the optimal weapon not be optimal is cruel, and people who don't understand that "can" and "are" mean the same thing.
As in you "can" do both, but "are" you doing both or just trying to find a way to make your numbers "win"?
In this instance, having a God of a divine class show favor to the Gods favored weapon is viewed unfavorably as it prevents the player from ignoring the flavor of the class.
See how that works.
That's not it at all though. Its misrepresenting people you don't know, and misleading someone in an attempt to make other people look bad.
From a roleplaying perspective, some of us do want the chance to pick what our character uses because that represents our character. My big bad priest of war might pack a dagger, but I don't want him to be forced to use a dagger because of my choice of deity. Changing my choice of deity or his weapon is conflicting with what I envision him with and want, and you could easily allow both without killing the flavor of a warpriest.
|
|
The solution to this problem is to simply make Sacred Weapon not key off your Deity's Favored Weapon. If you want to encourage folks to use their Deity's Favored Weapon, let it count as a divine focus and as a free hand for somatic gestures.
There. Incentive to use your Deity's Favored Weapon and we don't cripple folks who want to roll other weapons.
That solves nothing and makes this class fairly pointless.
edit: Ninja'd by Arae Garven
And my response to you is the same.
I think it is bad design to have the same weapons used over and over and to not flavor.
I think it is pathetic how many Scimitar Magus there are, and I view that as poor design.
Creating a class where the construction will vary greatly depending on which god you select, on the other hand, is great class design IMHO.
I too think it is pathetic how many Scimitar Magus there are, and I too view that as poor design.
Don't you think it will be equally pathetic if 90% of all players pick the same 2 or 3 Gods because of their God's weapon? Wouldn't that also be poor design?
BTW, I never seen any Paladin use a flail. I’m pretty sure there are people out here that think it is pathetic that my Paladin uses one because the weapon is not über, and there are probably people that say it will be pathetic if I let my Paladin swap to heavy flail because it is not the favored weapon of her God.
I don't care. I have my own idea why she uses a flail and I know where I got the inspiration from. Why couldn't it be the same if you play a warpriest.
That said, I Think the favord weapon thing is actually a minor thing.
I don't mind the 3/4 BAB and 6/9 casting, but I think it needs some more work and some more love. I don't even think 2 skills per level is a major problem.
I think some of the biggest problems is that the warpriest is close to redundant to the cleric. Especially if you look at the Crusader archetype. The WP is also close to redundant to the Inquisitor.
A lot of people say it need new mechanics. I agree that would be nice, but not as an end to itself.
I hope the blessings will be changed so that you at higher levels can activate them as move actions or even swift actions. I also hope he gets a domain and domain spells. That would make it more cleric than the Inquisitor.
I think he needs more swift action abilities and more buffs.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flavor and mechanics are intertwined all over the place. They didn't have to keep the Druid "no metal" restriction and weak proficiencies from 3.5, but they did - flavor drove that decision as much as anything else, especially once you consider that Ultimate Equipment includes druid-safe armor/shields like Wood that is available at level 1.
So wanting to tie mechanical benefits to the Favored Weapon is perfectly understandable.
That solves nothing and makes this class fairly pointless.The solution to this problem is to simply make Sacred Weapon not key off your Deity's Favored Weapon. If you want to encourage folks to use their Deity's Favored Weapon, let it count as a divine focus and as a free hand for somatic gestures.
There. Incentive to use your Deity's Favored Weapon and we don't cripple folks who want to roll other weapons.
Thanks for your well thought out argument and rebuttal /tongueincheek
|
|
That's not it at all though. Its misrepresenting people you don't know, and misleading someone in an attempt to make them look bad.It is most often generally cited by people who think that making the optimal weapon not be optimal is cruel, and people who don't understand that "can" and "are" mean the same thing.
As in you "can" do both, but "are" you doing both or just trying to find a way to make your numbers "win"?
In this instance, having a God of a divine class show favor to the Gods favored weapon is viewed unfavorably as it prevents the player from ignoring the flavor of the class.
See how that works.
I'm stating my opinion. You stated yours. We disagree.
I'm not victimized by people disagreeing with me...
That's not it at all though. Its misrepresenting people you don't know, and misleading someone in an attempt to make them look bad.It is most often generally cited by people who think that making the optimal weapon not be optimal is cruel, and people who don't understand that "can" and "are" mean the same thing.
As in you "can" do both, but "are" you doing both or just trying to find a way to make your numbers "win"?
In this instance, having a God of a divine class show favor to the Gods favored weapon is viewed unfavorably as it prevents the player from ignoring the flavor of the class.
See how that works.
I'm stating my opinion. You stated yours. We disagree.
I'm not victimized by people disagreeing with me...
Except whether we disagree has nothing to do with what you just said and how you tried to present other posters. Its not exactly progressive to do that.
|
|
@Zark - I don't see that happening. Each God comes with baggage beyond the weapon. If you play in a game with any observation of the
"A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds"
Clause, that is a far heavier burden. And if the bonus are where they should be, that is making the weapons substantially better, it becomes almost a non-factor.
|
|
Thanks for your well thought out argument and rebuttal /tongueincheekThat solves nothing and makes this class fairly pointless.The solution to this problem is to simply make Sacred Weapon not key off your Deity's Favored Weapon. If you want to encourage folks to use their Deity's Favored Weapon, let it count as a divine focus and as a free hand for somatic gestures.
There. Incentive to use your Deity's Favored Weapon and we don't cripple folks who want to roll other weapons.
More specifically, doing that removes the only interesting class feature and creates something you can make currently, better as a fighter/cleric multiclass.
Frankly, the only part of this class that gives it separate flavor is the sacred weapon part.
And having your sacred weapon not be the weapon favored by your God puts mechanical metagaming ahead of logic and flavor.
Better?
out of curiosity what is stormwind? i've seen the term tossed around a few times bit i haven't been able to figure it out.The Stormwind Fallacy is the idea that people who are good at optimizing their characters are automatically bad at roleplaying, and vice-versa. It's a fallacy because you can easily do both, or neither!
ciretose is invoking the fallacy when he says things like "If you don't want flavor, play GURPS." As if having a flavorful character concept and having an effectively built character are mutually exclusive.
It is most often cited by people who think that making the optimal weapon not be optimal is cruel, and people who don't understand that "can" and "are" mean the same thing.
As in you "can" do both, but "are" you doing both or just trying to find a way to make your numbers "win"?
In this instance, having a God of a divine class show favor to the Gods favored weapon is viewed unfavorably as it prevents the player from ignoring the flavor of the class.
See how that works.
I see you committing the SWF from the other direction. "You want good numbers, thus you can't want flavor, go play GURPS."
|
|
THe class is fairly pointless at it is, if you can not properly play a melee warprist of Erastil, warpriest of abadar totally sucks and for most others fighter 2/cleric x woudl be just a better option (with the exact same flavor for those who does not want to play GURPS).That solves nothing and makes this class fairly pointless.The solution to this problem is to simply make Sacred Weapon not key off your Deity's Favored Weapon. If you want to encourage folks to use their Deity's Favored Weapon, let it count as a divine focus and as a free hand for somatic gestures.
There. Incentive to use your Deity's Favored Weapon and we don't cripple folks who want to roll other weapons.
Hence putting forward the suggestion of more bonuses/special abilities for using the sacred weapon of the god.
Perhaps a warpriest of Abadar can reload as a free action.
As to the melee war priest of Erastil, why would a god who has a favored weapon of "Bow" be the calling of a melee warpriest?
Sounds like a fighter to be.
Making all the classes and features the same bores me (And most of the people who buy the flavor books...) as much as playing with unoptimized classes seems to bore you.
And the people who buy books...we are the audience. :)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also: Fun fact. You don't NEED to build for your deity's favored weapon if you don't want to.
Yeah, you skip out on that weapon enchantment ability, but you still have channeling, you still have 3/4 bab, you still have buffing spells, and you still have full martial proficiency.
You know what you need to perform decently with ANY melee weapon in the game? Power Attack. Seriously, that's it, and as a Warpriest you get the bonus feat for it by 3rd level, assuming you want a melee alternative to your ranged build (i.e., going for a Switch-hitter approach). Divine Favor + Power Attack means I'm hitting very much like a fighter at pretty much every level of the game, minus a few bonus damage feats. I can even take channel smite and, if I've got a neutral or evil deity, get some rocking single-attack hits.
The favored weapon thing is there for flavor and uniqueness, nothing more. You don't need it, so stop acting like you're forced to take it. XD
edit: Ninja'd by Arae Garven
And my response to you is the same.
I think it is bad design to have the same weapons used over and over and to not flavor.
I think it is pathetic how many Scimitar Magus there are, and I view that as poor design.
Creating a class where the construction will vary greatly depending on which god you select, on the other hand, is great class design IMHO.
I too think it is pathetic how many Scimitar Magus there are, and I too view that as poor design.
Don't you think it will be equally pathetic if 90% of all players pick the same 2 or 3 Gods because of their God's weapon? Wouldn't that also be poor design?
BTW, I never seen any Paladin use a flail. I’m pretty sure there are people out here that think it is pathetic that my Paladin uses one because the weapon is not über, and there are probably people that say it will be pathetic if I let my Paladin swap to heavy flail because it is not the favored weapon of her God.
I don't care. I have my own idea why she uses a flail and I know where I got the inspiration from. Why couldn't it be the same if you play a warpriest.
That said, I Think the favord weapon thing is actually a minor thing.
I don't mind the 3/4 BAB and 6/9 casting, but I think it needs some more work and some more love. I don't even think 2 skills per level is a major problem.
I think some of the biggest problems is that the warpriest is close to redundant to the cleric. Especially if you look at the Crusader archetype. The WP is also close to redundant to the Inquisitor.
A lot of people say it need new mechanics. I agree that would be nice, but not as an end to itself.
I hope the blessings will be changed so that you at higher levels can activate them as move actions or even swift actions. I also hope he gets a domain and domain spells. That would make it more cleric than the Inquisitor.
I think he needs more swift action abilities and more buffs.
On the Magus front: All I am hearing is that blade dance is broken as hell and should be removed from the game.
@ ciretose
So you seem to be arguing that warpriests should be forced to fight with their diety's favored weapon AND THEN BE BAD AT IT?
Because that is what happened when they don't have the action economy to actually act as a combat class.
Also: Fun fact. You don't NEED to build for your deity's favored weapon if you don't want to.
Yeah, you skip out on that weapon enchantment ability, but you still have channeling, you still have 3/4 bab, you still have buffing spells, and you still have full martial proficiency.
You know what you need to perform decently with ANY melee weapon in the game? Power Attack. Seriously, that's it, and as a Warpriest you get the bonus feat for it by 3rd level, assuming you want a melee alternative to your ranged build (i.e., going for a Switch-hitter approach). Divine Favor + Power Attack means I'm hitting very much like a fighter at pretty much every level of the game, minus a few bonus damage feats. I can even take channel smite and, if I've got a neutral or evil deity, get some rocking single-attack hits.
The favored weapon thing is there for flavor and uniqueness, nothing more. You don't need it, so stop acting like you're forced to take it. XD
+1 to that entire statement
|
|
I see you committing the SWF from the other direction. "You want good numbers, thus you can't want flavor, go play GURPS."
I see it as showing that the people citing stormwind are using it for cover for the fact that they don't actually want to have to deal with the flavor.
Arguing that your god doesn't want you to use the favored weapon of the God so that you can use a weapon that gives you more power shows you care about role playing how exactly?
I have no issue with people who only want to play for the numbers. I do have an issue when they try to eliminate flavor for the rest of us.
There is no debate or question as to which option is more flavorful.
The only reason to exclude it is to allow a loophole to avoid the option that makes the most flavor sense.
I see it as showing that the people citing stormwind are using it for cover for the fact that they don't actually want to have to deal with the flavor.I see you committing the SWF from the other direction. "You want good numbers, thus you can't want flavor, go play GURPS."
Your attributing it to something that isn't there. "I want options" isn't the same as saying "Flavor is dumb!" It also doesn't eliminate the flavor.
Thanks for your well thought out argument and rebuttal /tongueincheekThat solves nothing and makes this class fairly pointless.The solution to this problem is to simply make Sacred Weapon not key off your Deity's Favored Weapon. If you want to encourage folks to use their Deity's Favored Weapon, let it count as a divine focus and as a free hand for somatic gestures.
There. Incentive to use your Deity's Favored Weapon and we don't cripple folks who want to roll other weapons.
More specifically, doing that removes the only interesting class feature and creates something you can make currently, better as a fighter/cleric multiclass.
Frankly, the only part of this class that gives it separate flavor is the sacred weapon part.
And having your sacred weapon not be the weapon favored by your God puts mechanical metagaming ahead of logic and flavor.
Better?
So we're going to watch this class get pushed into obscurity because flavor should trump effectiveness and class balance. I find that unacceptable. Warpriests should be effective regardless of the deity. I'm pushing that design goal. Your favored weapon shouldn't play so heavily into that. You don't see Paladins wielding Longswords so I see no reason to hamstring the Warpriest from the getgo.
My proposal gave a method for Warpriests to get a nice perk for using their Favored Weapon and didn't close OPTIONS.
Ciretose while I respect your desire to promote flavor we must remember that we are brainstorming ideas for the WARpriest. Obviously they would try to use the most effective means for that goal.
Your adherence to MUST USE FAVORED WEAPON limits choice. I've never heard of that being a good thing.