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@Mrsin - I'm sorry that is a problem in the groups and people you play with. That is unfortunate for you and your fellow players.
In the same way I'm sorry you can't give a legitimate response instead of insulting me and other people you don't know I'm sure. I really would like to see a more flexible class if only for ease and less bookkeeping.
Weapon Training doesn't cut it. Viable Two-weapon fighters are classes with static damage boni the size of smite evil, sneak attack or (maybe) favored enemy.
And those are full BaB classes without 6 levels of spell casting.
Hell Divine Favor is a first level spell...
How do you propose the Warpriest casts his spells while two-weapon fighting?
By way of still spell metamagic, perhaps?Sadly, the point remains that you need a weapon you can wield in two hands in order to make a warpriest, barring things like the archer build I'm sure you could make with Erastil, or a fringe case like dervish dance and Sarenrae.
There are far too few viable good or neutral dieties for the warpriest.
Giving the class weapon training won't fix that, because they, like clerics, need two-handed weapons to work, else they can't cast their spells.
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Ok, I think the things that everyone in the forum can agree on are threefold:
1) Warpriest is weak and needs love.
2) It lacks identity, or we lack it's identity, which is causing us all to be unsure of what it's intended to do (though after reading all of this, I think I have that one figured out...finally...as do others)
3) It doesn't have anything that makes it unique and in fact, can currently be done better by multiclassing two levels of fighter and going cleric from there.
It needs to be clear, because it has been said repeatedly, but the devs have said that other classes count as both of the parent classes for the purposes of feats. It's easy to extrapolate that that is something they intend. These classes count as you having taken the parent classes, it's a preventative measure for multi-classing, but also a boon for feats.
I for one LOVE the feel of requiring the favored weapon. It adds a unique flavor to the class and it does warn you against being a WARpriest of a diety who it doesn't necessarily fit for (except Shelyn...), but I think we have tapped into what they were seeking in our discussions: The Martial Clericzilla concept without the full bells and whistles.
I think people have touched on the ways to fix this: a form of spellcombat. I think scrap the entire rounds per day for weapons and armor, as well as their channel ability.
I think wrapping all of that into a form of Divine Power (it's been mentioned) would be the ideal concept and then put in a form of Personal Buffing in the same vein of spell combat (where the blessings are used to buff the warpriest as part of an attack action giving the Warpriest a -2 to hit) that allows the warpriest to cast spells on themselves as part of an attack action.
This will help deal with their action economy, their unique factor, give them a bit more oomph, and drive them into being playable. I do NOT believe they need Full BAB. I think that there is a good deal of potential in this class, but I think the blessings need a comb through to really make them feel like they focus on the gods and the weapons. And some of them are just flat out weak (Healing Greater Blessing anyone?). I am so excited for this class, but it does need the 3 problems addressed, and I hope this is an idea that can be looked into.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, Contributor
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How do you propose the Warpriest casts his spells while two-weapon fighting?
By way of still spell metamagic, perhaps?Sadly, the point remains that you need a weapon you can wield in two hands in order to make a warpriest, barring things like the archer build I'm sure you could make with Erastil, or a fringe case like dervish dance and Sarenrae.
There are far too few viable good or neutral dieties for the warpriest.
Giving the class weapon training won't fix that, because they, like clerics, need two-handed weapons to work, else they can't cast their spells.
Could give them the ability to use favored weapon for somatic components, like an arcane duelist bard. Let them use it for a holy symbol, too.
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And if you don't like the flavor of a given deity's chosen weapon, pick another deity. Or play another class. As Ciretose says, the favored weapon is one of the hallmarks of this particular class. They are the chosen warriors of the deity, and it only makes sense that they would primarily use the deity's favored weapon.Weapon stats DO matter. Its why folks don't use only daggers at low levels and low crit range weapons at higher levels. Being pigeonholed into using a Starknife as a Warpriest of Desna sucks. Plain and true.And flavor matters more.
A warpriest of Desna would use a starknife, because that is the favored weapon of the god they worship.
If you don't care about flavor, there are lots of other RPGS out there.
Exactly.
The Warpriest has the ability to take a cool, but suboptimal weapon and make it viable. I know that my first inclination is to start building Warpriests of deities like Calistria (whip) or Sivanah (Bladed Scarf) so I can use weapons I'm not completely bored of.
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Just a thought as to the whole deity favored weapon thing, what if the following abilities were
Channel Weapon(SU):At second level, a warpriest gains the ability to funnel power through his deity's favored weapon. He may sacrifice a spell slot as a move action to gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the spell level for a number of rounds equal to his wisdom modifier. This only works with his deities favored weapon.
Spiritual Weapon(SU):A warpriest may at 5th level expend one use of his blessing to give him the ability to apply his wisdom modifier to damage rolls for one minute.
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If scrapping channel, I would at least like to see them given something in its place of equal ability. Specifically, something that could be channeled through their weapon ala channel smite, in order that the warpriest be more than just a healer/buffbot/fighter. They could have a lot of offensive utility with wise use of negative energy.
The Warpriest has the ability to take a cool, but suboptimal weapon and make it viable. I know that my first inclination is to start building Warpriests of deities like Calistria (whip) or Sivanah (Bladed Scarf) so I can use weapons I'm not completely bored of.
Shouldn't that be an ability everyone has though?
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The problem is that that really doesn't help them with the MAD.
They are still going to need to have Str because they are wearing Medium and Heavy armor, <probably> a big weapon, and possibly a shield.
They are still going to need Dex to make the most of their armor at mid and later levels when the mithral plate (+3 max Dex), more ranged touch spells, and things like that will matter more.
They are still going to need Con because as a d8 class (or even a d10), they are still a frontline class expected to take hits.
That also frontloads the class something crazy. Every Monk in the world will take 1 level of Warpriest of Irori to get Weapon Focus and Guided Hand off the bat.
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@Mrsin - I'm sorry that is a problem in the groups and people you play with. That is unfortunate for you and your fellow players.In the same way I'm sorry you can't give a legitimate response instead of insulting me and other people you don't know I'm sure. I really would like to see a more flexible class if only for ease and less bookkeeping.
No one is insulting you.
If your group does not value flavor to the point that they wouldn't play a follower of a god who does not have the optimal weapon, that is a shame.
Having all options be optimal and equal is not flexibility.
And frankly, if you want to encourage the flavor of followers of the deity actually using the weapon favored by the deity, giving the bonus to any weapon has the opposite effect.
It is unfortunate that mechanics trump flavor for your group to the point that having anything less than the optimal option is not going to happen, according to you.
Perhaps they should try GURPS.
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It isn't taking a change. It is adding a mechanic that isn't needed.
Many of us think the Magus isn't that great because they made a simple idea complicated, and as a result we keep seeing "Spell combat" FAQs pop up and a class where it is basically a guy with a scimitar nearly every time...
Many of us like the idea of the warrior of the god actually being encouraged to use the favored weapon of the god.
Many of us don't want to go through FAQ wars for the next 6 months to a year for something "new" when what is in place actually works and won't require an FAQ.
If the Paizo community loved "new", the Paizo community wouldn't exist and we would all be playing 4E...
This is a game and community based on improving existing systems and mechanics.
New is new. Being new gives it no special quality toward "better".
Beatles and the Rolling Stones are old. Justin Bieber and One Direction are new.
Before you reinvent the wheel, how about make sure the wheel isn't better than putting your car on oval tires?
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The problem is that that really doesn't help them with the MAD.
They are still going to need to have Str because they are wearing Medium and Heavy armor, <probably> a big weapon, and possibly a shield.
They are still going to need Dex to make the most of their armor at mid and later levels when the mithral plate (+3 max Dex), more ranged touch spells, and things like that will matter more.
They are still going to need Con because as a d8 class (or even a d10), they are still a frontline class expected to take hits.
That also frontloads the class something crazy. Every Monk in the world will take 1 level of Warpriest of Irori to get Weapon Focus and Guided Hand off the bat.
Yeah, but it means that they get more out of wisdom. Monks still dip crusader all the time for guided hand, this just means that they can spend less feats. And with the brawler, I think less people will play monks anyway. The strength for carrying capacity is a good point, but they can suck a medium encumberance because it will overlap with armor check penalty anyway, and need strength to do damage at low levels. And mithral will help at later levels. Dex is less of an issue, because unless you are a dex-focused class, you don't really use it much. You will get a whole 2 more AC points in mithral full plate than if you start with a 12 Dex, but you will also save 8 points in point buy. Con is going to be an issue for every class regardless of HD, because HP is one of the most used and needed resources in the game. Letting the class hinge off of wisdom I think will make the class MADness closer to that of a paladin and further than that of a monk.
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It's probably too late to even be talking about this, but I think cavalier + cleric would have been a better batter. Challenge, tactician, clerical casting, limited channeling and domains, and the sacred weapon/armor thingies.
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I actually like that the warpriest isn't a full BAB/d10 class. I was hoping he would be a sort of divine magus, although I would have liked to see something emulating spell combat for this purpose.
Also, as someone who plays a paladin 75% of the time, I like that the warpriest is not a "paladin for any alignment." I feel making something like that would detract from the original class. I like people knowing who I am and what I stand for when I say "Paladin."
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I like that.Do you have a quote? Because I would actually be very surprised if Paizo went through all effort, and then gave us the all-alignment paladin, or a magus with cure spells.
No, that's not really okay. All those bonus combat feats are not likely to stick around because Paizo is going to offset their fix to the class's fundamental issues by removing them. They're not going to leave this class as it is. It's almost universally derided. They're going to choose to give in to one side or the other. Either the warpriest will get spell combat or move to the Paladin/Ranger chassis. In either case they'll recalculate the balance and the bonus...Indeed. It'd be such a waste of what they've done so far.
Solution to the silly favored weapon problem.
War Dedication: At 1st level a Warpriest gains Weapon Focus in any martial or simple weapon. His choice is forever considered to be his Favored Weapon and cannot be changed. A Warpriest alternatively may select his Deity's Favored Weapon and receive Weapon Focus for that weapon instead.
I dislike it.
Having your deity not have the most optimal weapon is not a problem. The vast majority of your bonuses are not coming from the base stats of the weapon, and frankly the whole "If it's not the best, it sucks" mindset shouldn't be fed into.
I think you are over simplifying it. True it does not to be best, but there is a big deferens between using a club and a scimitar. It is also a big deal if you are a melee character and your deity has the cross bow as her favorite weapon.
Let’s face it. This game is very much focused on killing stuff, even if my current Paladin is using a flail for flavor reasons, but she is also carrying a bow and a backup slashing weapon. Slashing weapon because she hates zombies and she knows she fight them best with slashing weapons.
At higher levels her main weapon will be a heavy flail. The flail thing is not because she will trip it is only because the weapon is cool and because her Gods has flail as favorite weapon, but swapping to heavy flail is because of game mechanics and because it is cool. Crit range for a flail is 20. Crit range for a heavy flail is 19-20. No, flail is not the best weapon, Great sword or Falchion are better, but flail is more sexy and it is good enough.
Point is: Choice of weapon does matter. Forcing someone stick to a weapon because he/she has this or that god feels strange. No other divine class is forced to do that.
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What about giving the class the benefits of its buffs in a more effective way? In essence the class is like a cleric, but benefits from clerical combat buffs in a way that clerics can't emulate.
At level two the warpriest gets extend metamagic as a bonus feat.
At level 3 the warpriests gains the benefits from extend metamagic for its buff spells without adjustment at something like level 3.
At level six, the warpriests extended spells change to the next time increment instead of doubling the time they last.
Major caveats being the levels I just chose are arbitrary, but low enough that the warpriest could see benefits from this inside of pfs play. I guess there would have to be some sort of language that makes hour per level spells into 24hour spells or something.
+1
I really love if the class could quicken spells and other metamagic effects without increasing the slot. Perhaps X times per day.
That would be cool.
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Desna doesn't strike me as the type to have warpriests either.
I think that we will have to accept the fact that warpriests of desna, for all intents and purposes, does not exist.
There are *plenty* of reasons for a Warpriest of Desna to exist. Here's three concepts off the top of my head:
1. A revolutionary working in Nidal, striking against the agents of the Umbral Court where ever they can.
2. A hunter who tracks down and destroys the spawn of Lamashtu and Ghlaunder.
3. An anonymous hero who searches for the doomed and the damned and gives them hope in their darkest hour.
Cool character concepts are great, and you should never, *ever* have to choose between a cool concept and mechanical viability.
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Agree. That is why I don't want a melee Warpriest be "forced" using a ranged weapon.
It's probably too late to even be talking about this, but I think cavalier + cleric would have been a better batter. Challenge, tactician, clerical casting, limited channeling and domains, and the sacred weapon/armor thingies.
agreed, that sounds like it could have lead to a much more interesting and useful whole.
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People keep throwing around the word "Viable" without any context. "Viable" does not mean necessary, and it doesn't mean ideal: It means being able to get the job done.
Are you in a party? Do the need some support and some combat prowess? Don't wanna be sneaky, or hide in the shadows? Wanna have a cool signature weapon? Don't wanna deal with finnicky codes of conduct? Warpriest is there for you.
Viable means "If paired with a party of 2-3 other members, can you overcome a challenge of a difficulty level roughly similar to the party's?" No more, no less, and Warpriest is DEFINITELY viable.
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Desna doesn't strike me as the type to have warpriests either.
I think that we will have to accept the fact that warpriests of desna, for all intents and purposes, does not exist.
There are *plenty* of reasons for a Warpriest of Desna to exist. Here's three concepts off the top of my head:
1. A revolutionary working in Nidal, striking against the agents of the Umbral Court where ever they can.
2. A hunter who tracks down and destroys the spawn of Lamashtu and Ghlaunder.
3. An anonymous hero who searches for the doomed and the damned and gives them hope in their darkest hour.
Cool character concepts are great, and you should never, *ever* have to choose between a cool concept and mechanical viability.
Am I the only one who thinks that this free weapon focus thing is so minor that it should be beneath our notice?
Like: it is one godsdamned feat. I will admit that the new rule that warpriests got proficiency with their deity's favored weapon made things worse though. Can I just propose a fix really quick so we can go back to talking about how the warpriest is underpowered otherwise?
At level 1:
-if the deity's favored weapon is a martial weapon, the Warpriest gains weapon focus with that weapon.
-if the deity's favored weapon is an exotic weapon (which are generally more powerful or have interesting functionalities), the Warpriest gains exotic weapon proficiency with that weapon but not weapon focus.
-if the deity's favored weapon is a simple weapon (which are generally less powerful), the Warpriest get weapon focus with that weapon AND their choice of weapon finesse (if it applies) OR weapon specialization with that weapon [or maybe just a base +1 to damage if people think that would make spears or some such s@&# OP].
Boom boom boom. No weapon is now completely underpowered or overpowered for all builds. Dance and celebrate.
Can we go back to talking about giving them an action economy ability or other kind of buff that will partially catch them up in spell casting or melee combat in general?
Desna doesn't strike me as the type to have warpriests either.
I think that we will have to accept the fact that warpriests of desna, for all intents and purposes, does not exist.
There are *plenty* of reasons for a Warpriest of Desna to exist. Here's three concepts off the top of my head:
1. A revolutionary working in Nidal, striking against the agents of the Umbral Court where ever they can.
2. A hunter who tracks down and destroys the spawn of Lamashtu and Ghlaunder.
3. An anonymous hero who searches for the doomed and the damned and gives them hope in their darkest hour.
Cool character concepts are great, and you should never, *ever* have to choose between a cool concept and mechanical viability.
Am I the only one who thinks that this free weapon focus thing is so minor that it should be beneath our notice?
Like: it is one godsdamned feat. I will admit that the new rule that warpriests got proficiency with their deity's favored weapon made things worse though. Can I just propose a fix really quick so we can go back to talking about how the warpriest is underpowered otherwise?
At level 1:
-if the deity's favored weapon is a martial weapon, the Warpriest gains weapon focus with that weapon.
-if the deity's favored weapon is an exotic weapon (which are generally more powerful or have interesting functionalities), the Warpriest gains exotic weapon proficiency with that weapon but not weapon focus.
-if the deity's favored weapon is a simple weapon (which are generally less powerful), the Warpriest get weapon focus with that weapon AND their choice of weapon finesse (if it applies) OR weapon specialization with that weapon [or maybe just a base +1 to damage if people think that would make spears or some such s+#$ OP].Boom boom boom. No weapon is now completely underpowered or overpowered for all builds. Dance and celebrate.
Can we go back to talking about giving them an action economy ability or other kind of...
I thought that was what I was doing with the extend metamagic proposal?
Desna doesn't strike me as the type to have warpriests either.
I think that we will have to accept the fact that warpriests of desna, for all intents and purposes, does not exist.
There are *plenty* of reasons for a Warpriest of Desna to exist. Here's three concepts off the top of my head:
1. A revolutionary working in Nidal, striking against the agents of the Umbral Court where ever they can.
2. A hunter who tracks down and destroys the spawn of Lamashtu and Ghlaunder.
3. An anonymous hero who searches for the doomed and the damned and gives them hope in their darkest hour.
Cool character concepts are great, and you should never, *ever* have to choose between a cool concept and mechanical viability.
Then there should be some way for the Warpriest to use a different weapon than the favored weapon. This is what I think should happen, in an ideal world. I'm not the designers though, and they might not agree, for a number of reasons. I'm just saying that we should be prepared to say, "well then, no warpriests sponsored by Desna.".
@Excaliburproxy
It also governs their ability to enchant their weapon. This ability seems to be intended to be a rather integral part of the reason the warpriest isn't just a nerfed cleric.
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I would disagree with exotic weapons being more powerful than martial. This is most often not the case, though there are a few notable exceptions to this statement. The exotics aren't any better than the martial weapons as a general rule of thumb. It'd be nice if they were, but yeah... they're not; usually not, at least. What essentially would wind up happening is a warpriest with a free exotic weapon proficiency on something only as good as a martial weapon and no weapon focus.
Side note: Can someone actually provide a citation stating the warpriest counts as a fighter for fighter feats? People keep saying it, but I cannot for the life of me find evidence.
I would disagree with exotic weapons being more powerful than martial. This is most often not the case, though there are a few notable exceptions to this statement. The exotics aren't any better than the martial weapons as a general rule of thumb. It'd be nice if they were, but yeah... they're not; usually not, at least.
katana's and sawtooth sabres are pretty good, but for the most part you are right about exotics.
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I would disagree with exotic weapons being more powerful than martial. This is most often not the case, though there are a few notable exceptions to this statement. The exotics aren't any better than the martial weapons as a general rule of thumb. It'd be nice if they were, but yeah... they're not; usually not, at least.katana's and sawtooth sabres are pretty good, but for the most part you are right about exotics.
I would say the falcata is another pretty good example of a high functioning exotic weapon. In fact, it's probably the king of them all. I actually kind of wish there was a deity with a falcata as its favored weapon.
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What if there was a first level cleric spell called
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Am I the only one who thinks that this free weapon focus thing is so minor that it should be beneath our notice?
Like: it is one godsdamned feat. I will admit that the new rule that warpriests got proficiency with their deity's favored weapon made things worse though. Can I just propose a fix really quick so we can go back to talking about how the warpriest is underpowered otherwise?
The real problem is Sacred Weapon (which is the ability that helps your attack and damage numbers keep up with other combatant-types) only works with your focus weapon which, if you worship a deity, must be your deity's favored weapon.
Anyway here's my proposal for an action economy ability: Starting at 2nd level, a Warpriest gets the ability to cast 1 spell per day with a duration of 1 hour/level as a Favored Blessing. The effect of a favored blessing lasts 24 hours, and if dispelled is only suppressed for a few rounds (just like a magic item).
At 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, a Warpriest can cast one more favored blessing per day.
At 7th level, the ability also works for spells with a duration of 10 minutes/level. At 12th level, it works for spells that last 1 minute/level. And at 17th level, it works for spells that last 1 round/level.
Basically it's DMM: Persist but with tighter restrictions. Persist's brokenness always depended on what spells you were persisting and how many of them there are. The problem is if you can persist one spell, you can find ways to persist more. This ability tightly ties how many spells you can persist to your level progression instead of your turn attempts. It also ties what spells you can persist to your level progression: You can't persist the really strong 1 round/level buffs until very late, and you can never pull off crap like Persistent Wraithstrike.
I would disagree with exotic weapons being more powerful than martial. This is most often not the case, though there are a few notable exceptions to this statement. The exotics aren't any better than the martial weapons as a general rule of thumb. It'd be nice if they were, but yeah... they're not; usually not, at least.
Name me one weapon where that is the case. All the ones I can think of are either strictly better than their martial weapon equivalent (spike chain to other 2-hand reach weapons, bastard swords and katanas to longswords, double weapons to standard dual wielding options) or have wacky little powers (whips, chakram, etc.).
I see people are talking about Desna here. What the hell are the stats for a star knife anyways? Is that an exotic weapon? I never run in the standard pathfinder setting.
@Trogdar
Oh yeah? I may have missed that thing about the expanded metamagic. I gotta look through this super long thread again. It seems like it grew 100 posts overnight.
@craft cheese
Oh. Then sacred weapon should be able to apply to any weapon but you still get weapon focus the way I was talking about. *shrugs*
A starblade isn't a viable weapon to base a medium BaB warrior class, that has little access to static damage increases around.
Nor are daggers, shortswords, whips, light crossbows or unarmed strikes.
Oh man, I'd love to see an unarmed strike warpriest archetype, though!
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Agree. That is why I don't want a melee Warpriest be "forced" using a ranged weapon.Don't pick a god who favors a ranged weapon.
Yes, but what if we say I want a vanguard of the peasants, a sacred warrior of Erastil that, sword in hand and divine wrath on his brow, puts down those who would disturb the peace of the rural communities?
As it stands, the answer is threefold. "tough luck." "play a paladin." "play a cleric.".
I'd like for this concept to be able to be expressed by warpriest as well. Apparently you wouldn't.
I would disagree with exotic weapons being more powerful than martial. This is most often not the case, though there are a few notable exceptions to this statement. The exotics aren't any better than the martial weapons as a general rule of thumb. It'd be nice if they were, but yeah... they're not; usually not, at least.Name me one weapon where that is the case. All the ones I can think of are either strictly better than their martial weapon equivalent (spike chain to other 2-hand reach weapons, bastard swords and katanas to longswords, double weapons to standard dual wielding options) or have wacky little powers (whips, chakram, etc.).
I see people are talking about Desna here. What the hell are the stats for a star knife anyways? Is that an exotic weapon? I never run in the standard pathfinder setting.
@Trogdar
Oh yeah? I may have missed that thing about the expanded metamagic. I gotta look through this super long thread again. It seems like it grew 100 posts overnight.@craft cheese
Oh. Then sacred weapon should be able to apply to any weapon but you still get weapon focus the way I was talking about. *shrugs*
Its tsix posts above your previous post.
Most of the monk weapons are exotic but are not really great. Siangham, sai, etc. They are on the level of simple weapons mostly.
Which deities get those? Maybe they could also get an unusually good blessing that grants something like flurry of blows a certain number of rounds per day. Or just give monk special weapons weapon focus or weapon finesse in addition to proficiency.
@trogdar
ohhhhhh. Well yeah. That was not a real design decision, yet though. All energy should be going towards clamoring for that or something like that.
Hell! maybe sacred weapon should be forsaken in pursuit of a particularly good action economy ability.
Am I the only one who thinks that this free weapon focus thing is so minor that it should be beneath our notice?
Like: it is one godsdamned feat. I will admit that the new rule that warpriests got proficiency with their deity's favored weapon made things worse though. Can I just propose a fix really quick so we can go back to talking about how the warpriest is underpowered otherwise?
The real problem is Sacred Weapon (which is the ability that helps your attack and damage numbers keep up with other combatant-types) only works with your focus weapon which, if you worship a deity, must be your deity's favored weapon.
Anyway here's my proposal for an action economy ability: Starting at 2nd level, a Warpriest gets the ability to cast 1 spell per day with a duration of 1 hour/level as a Favored Blessing. The effect of a favored blessing lasts 24 hours, and if dispelled is only suppressed for a few rounds (just like a magic item).
At 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, a Warpriest can cast one more favored blessing per day.
At 7th level, the ability also works for spells with a duration of 10 minutes/level. At 12th level, it works for spells that last 1 minute/level. And at 17th level, it works for spells that last 1 round/level.
Basically it's DMM: Persist but with tighter restrictions. Persist's brokenness always depended on what spells you were persisting and how many of them there are. The problem is if you can persist one spell, you can find ways to persist more. This ability tightly ties how many spells you can persist to your level progression instead of your turn attempts. It also ties what spells you can persist to your level progression: You can't persist the really strong 1 round/level buffs until very late, and you can never pull off crap like Persistent Wraithstrike.
This is definitely one way to go that is similar to where I was going, but I think round per level buffs shouldn't improve beyond minute per level which is why I kind of went the direction of improving a lesser metamagic.
The whip is one of two exoti weapons on the list. The other is the spiked chain.
The whip blows. The spiked chain is rather good for a battlefield control application, something the warpriest will only be able to do in a very high point-buy, and even then he will get late access to the good bits.
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Agree. That is why I don't want a melee Warpriest be "forced" using a ranged weapon.Don't pick a god who favors a ranged weapon.Yes, but what if we say I want a vanguard of the peasants, a sacred warrior of Erastil that, sword in hand and divine wrath on his brow, puts down those who would disturb the peace of the rural communities?
As it stands, the answer is threefold. "tough luck." "play a paladin." "play a cleric.".
I'd like for this concept to be able to be expressed by warpriest as well. Apparently you wouldn't.
Erastil's favored weapon is a bow. One would think the god would favor those who use his favored weapon...
Removing all flavor from he class removes what makes this class interesting.
If you want to be a guy with a sword, be a fighter.
If you want to be a holy warrior of Erastil, one would think you would at least use that Gods favored weapon.
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I could see it being really nice to bump things like bear's endurance or bull's strength lasting hours on a warpriest. This would make you less need items that buff your stats, and I will concede that some might see that as a way of skirting the economical limitations in PFS. However, you're also paying for it by burning two of your already limited spells to have those benefits, thus making you slightly less able as a caster (but slightly more able as melee). However, that sort of benefit would need to be personal only, and considering the crazy number of magic items a warpriest would need, you're probably still going to be shelling out more than most of the other classes.
Agree. That is why I don't want a melee Warpriest be "forced" using a ranged weapon.Don't pick a god who favors a ranged weapon.Yes, but what if we say I want a vanguard of the peasants, a sacred warrior of Erastil that, sword in hand and divine wrath on his brow, puts down those who would disturb the peace of the rural communities?
As it stands, the answer is threefold. "tough luck." "play a paladin." "play a cleric.".
I'd like for this concept to be able to be expressed by warpriest as well. Apparently you wouldn't.
Erastil's favored weapon is a bow. One would think the god would favor those who use his favored weapon...
Removing all flavor from he class removes what makes this class interesting.
If you want to be a guy with a sword, be a fighter.
If you want to be a holy warrior of Erastil, one would think you would at least use that Gods favored weapon.
I am pretty much with you here, I think. It seems to me that the only really problem with the way the rules stand is that some dudes are going to get strapped with a light club or a crossbow or something. And as it happens: there ARE no good builds for those weapons without some extra help. (hence I would want to throw those guys a bone and hand them weapon specialization too)
This is definitely one way to go that is similar to where I was going, but I think round per level buffs shouldn't improve beyond minute per level which is...
I don't think it's going to be a problem that late in your career. Persist Divine Power is overpowered at 7th level, but by the time your cleric buddy is tossing around Miracles it's not nearly so impressive.
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Agree. That is why I don't want a melee Warpriest be "forced" using a ranged weapon.Don't pick a god who favors a ranged weapon.Yes, but what if we say I want a vanguard of the peasants, a sacred warrior of Erastil that, sword in hand and divine wrath on his brow, puts down those who would disturb the peace of the rural communities?
As it stands, the answer is threefold. "tough luck." "play a paladin." "play a cleric.".
I'd like for this concept to be able to be expressed by warpriest as well. Apparently you wouldn't.
Erastil's favored weapon is a bow. One would think the god would favor those who use his favored weapon...
Removing all flavor from he class removes what makes this class interesting.
If you want to be a guy with a sword, be a fighter.
If you want to be a holy warrior of Erastil, one would think you would at least use that Gods favored weapon.
Why exactly would one think that? Does the clerics of Desna regularly use starblades in your campaign? Do the Paladins of Iomedae all use longswords?
It's only a construct of this speciffic class, and I regard it as a bad one, as it limits player choice, in both deity and weapon.
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Agree. That is why I don't want a melee Warpriest be "forced" using a ranged weapon.Don't pick a god who favors a ranged weapon.Yes, but what if we say I want a vanguard of the peasants, a sacred warrior of Erastil that, sword in hand and divine wrath on his brow, puts down those who would disturb the peace of the rural communities?
As it stands, the answer is threefold. "tough luck." "play a paladin." "play a cleric.".
I'd like for this concept to be able to be expressed by warpriest as well. Apparently you wouldn't.
Erastil's favored weapon is a bow. One would think the god would favor those who use his favored weapon...
Removing all flavor from he class removes what makes this class interesting.
If you want to be a guy with a sword, be a fighter.
If you want to be a holy warrior of Erastil, one would think you would at least use that Gods favored weapon.
Why? Does all Clerics use their Gods favored weapon?
Does all Paladins use their Gods favored weapon?edit: Ninja'd by Arae Garven