For feats, she has improved unarmed strike and combat expertise.
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Later, Debbie faces some skeletons. She's kinda up the creek. If she stabs, she has a 3.75% chance of a crit, which will do 2d6-7 damage. She can't even borrow a club unless she emptied all those darts out of her pockets first. Her best bet is to go total defense and let the rest of the party have at it.
"Hey Googleshng, why not punch the skeletons?"
A- When all you have is a hammer (or, piercing weapon in this case), everything looks like a nail.B- I was revising feats like crazy and forgot I left that in. What I ultimately went with for level 1 was Combat Expertise (again, I can't see ever not taking it with this class), and Butterfly's Sting (SOMEONE should be doing damage with all these crits I'm getting).
The Dawn/Debbie Debug argument is full of one major problem: Dervish Dance requires 2 ranks of Perform: Dance. You are not taking it before level 2 UNLESS you are a specific bard, so the comparison isn't exactly accurate. That said, I don't disagree with moving the pseudo-finesse to 1st level, but I think it should stay pseudo, because let's face it, it's better.
Good catch. Don't think there's any way to weasel around that until level 3, so Dawn can't fight a skeleton either. She can handle zombies though, which Debbie still can't. Piercing is a nasty type to be stuck with.
Overall, I think this class hits almost all the marks it needs to, though it is quite a stat heavy class.
I do think the panache limitation is what is keeping it in check. If it had much more than it currently does, then it would have an insane number of actions and could completely turtle. As it is, it can do a good job of that anyway.
That being said, I can NOT wait to build the Dread Pirate Westley to test this out.
Also said, I was really hoping to see them able to use their off-hand a bit better than they are able to now. I think that precise strike should not have the empty free hand requirements and I would love the class to death.
I'm actually OK with the stats I have on this test character. It presents some unique challenges, mostly keeping the gear weight down. It should be closer to what a gunslinger has to deal with, but the gunslinger has wis instead of cha, which helps with the will save, and does not especially need con, because they aren't in melee. Plus they're ignoring armor at optimal range, and hitting things out of the box.
Tweaks that I would and would not like to see so far:
- Swashbuckler finesse really needs to be moved to level 1. Debbie here can't hit the broad side of a barn, and in a typical level 1 party you are heavily relying on the full BAB member of the group to take things out while everyone else is waiting for their main class features to flesh out.
- Swashbuckler finesse does not need to become weapon finesse as a bonus feat, but only because the things for which it is a requirement are things they should be able to access in other ways. Specifically:
- As a class feature, I would like to see the option to add dex to weapon damage instead of strength at level 3 if not sooner. I don't mind being a little bit of a late bloomer, and I can't see anyone wanting to take that big of a dip to get it. And hey, honestly if you're a rogue or a monk desperate enough for base damage to want it, it's a form of multiclassing that works in my mind.
- I wouldn't mind getting agile maneuvers as a bonus feat down the line too. Maybe at 4 or 5? It's not a huge priority, but it'd be in keeping with the whole "let's not punish the dex based fighter for being a dex based fighter" angle.
- A lot of people are asking to be able to add int or cha to damage. I can see the logic, because for a class with so many stat dependencies I'm seriously considering another test build that drops con down to 7 you want to get your mileage out of everything, hurting things more because you're really charismatic is a bit too 4th edition for my taste. How do you rationalize being so charming you hit harder? That and it would kind of allow for a build where you tanked all your physical stats, then you can just take a single-level dip into synthesist or something stupid like that and... yeah.
- I don't want any more panache than I'm getting out of the box. Any more than I have here at level 1 would frankly make this too good, and gaining a single point of it is nifty enough that I'd happily spend the feat or pick up a headband down the road.
- Opportune Parry and Riposte need to be merged. It should cost 1 panache, and 1 AOO. Possibly even work off just a single attack roll even. I have a lot of experience with this sort of thing playing a mounted character with ridiculous pet AC. This is an inherently defensive class, and panache is an incredibly precious resource. If anything is getting a hit on you, their attack roll is going to be high enough that your odds of beating it are a lousy gamble. Plus you need combat reflexes to even use it as is, and I don't believe in having a basic class feature you can't use until you've taken a feat to unlock it.
- I'd like to get more benefit out of a buckler somehow.
- I'd like to be able to benefit from class features using slashing weapons. Or at least a few slashing weapons. Rapier and cutlass should be the two obvious picks for the class.
- I wouldn't mind having an extra 2 skill points. Feels greedy asking, but conceptually I can't picture a swashbuckler who isn't both fit and athletic, and a snappy conversationalist. I barely swung it here, but it would be nice if there was a point or two left over to actually take knowledge nobility or swim or escape artist or something.
That said, it's time to level Debbie here up, probably going with step up and associated feats for a bit unless someone shouts out something better for the theme I'm overlooking, and do some more testing.
Interesting. Running Fred and Sally through the DPR calculator, against the "typical" AC 24 of a CR 10 opponent, their DPR is... almost identical. 56.91 for Sally and 56.55 for Fred (assuming both are Power Attacking, and they should be). And the price for maintaining that parity is substantial losses of both AC and saves for Sally vs Fred. Adding in the expected DPR increase for "burning off" the extra panache from a confirmed crit increases Sally's DPR by 3.891 - sizable, but certainly not game-breaking, and you're paying for it with -3 AC, -4 Fort and no Will save reroll. I'm not sure there's actually a problem here.
To be fair, the Fort is balanced by the Reflex. Also, Sally spent 1000 less gold and has a slightly cheaper way to get her next 2 AC than Fred does (can swap to a better armor than non-mithral chain shirt, such as mithral kikko or such, plus she gets +1 AC next level). It really gets crazy with dervish dance being allowed (thus giving Sally 13 Str and 22 Dex with a mithral chain shirt, losing Dodge for Dervish to have the same AC as Fred and way higher Ref even than before).
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To be fair, the Fort is balanced by the Reflex.
I agree with most of the rest of your points, but I disagree with this bit. Reflex is pretty much the weakest save in the game. With few exceptions, the consequence of a failed Reflex save is lost hit points, which are pretty easy to get back in the grand scheme of things. Failed Fort saves, though, sometimes cost you hit points - and sometimes cost you ability points, or just kill you/take you entirely out of the fight. These are much worse consequences. Between the two, I'd always want a good Fort save over a good Ref save.
I think Daring-do could be awesome, but the risk/reward of the mechanic weighs more towards risk, considering that it costs one panache point.
example- if I'm in the heat of battle, and I have the option to swing from a chandelier to attack the main bad guy on the other side of the room OR to hold on to my last panache point and spend endless turns to get to him through he battle; I'd want to use my cool class ability to do an awesome cinematic move. If I roll not well on my d20, then roll a 1 on my d6, then I've not only missed grabbing the chandelier, but now I can't do half of my cool class abilities. And my chances of killing or criting on a guy are less now, so it will be harder for me to get back a panache point.
So the risk is- sacrificing a good chunk of my useful deeds (and my battlefield worth) to do something "daring" to help my allies and advance the story.
The reward is - an average roll of 3, to add to my d20 roll and skill rank? I think I'll hold on to my panache point for the deeds that could be more beneficial.
maybe make it so it multiplies your skill rank for that round by two, that way, if you roll bad, you might still be able to pull of a cool cinematic maneuver.
I strongly think the swashbuckler should be able to more non-combat stuff. I picture a swashbuckler dancing around a fight, parrying here, and thrusting there. "Daring-do" is the only class ability that attempts something like that, but IMO it just isn't worth it
Maybe increasing the skills per level to 6 + int coooould help with this?
To be fair, the Fort is balanced by the Reflex.I agree with most of the rest of your points, but I disagree with this bit. Reflex is pretty much the weakest save in the game. With few exceptions, the consequence of a failed Reflex save is lost hit points, which are pretty easy to get back in the grand scheme of things. Failed Fort saves, though, sometimes cost you hit points - and sometimes cost you ability points, or just kill you/take you entirely out of the fight. These are much worse consequences. Between the two, I'd always want a good Fort save over a good Ref save.
It depends on what spells you have from the APG and beyond, but in general I agree with you. My bad, I used my words poorly--by balanced I shouldn't have mean cancelled out. I meant it was part of the mitigating factor that you hadn't included. I do agree that I'd rather have Fort than Ref against a standard set of foes. Thanks for the good insights!
Thats a great idea.I haven't read through all 7 pages, but has anyone mentioned the Swashbuckler getting Charisma to damage or attack, similar to the Dashing Swordsman in the Order of the Stick?
I don't know about you, but that would be all sorts of awesome.
Heck I'd love to see their Charisma counting as Int for Combat Expertise ;)
I can understand the idea of adding INT to damage, because its assuming the swashbuckler; in all of her fencing training; knows exactly where to hit on a creatures anatomy (sorta like real fencing). This was used in the 3.5 class too. BUT since this class is focusing on CHA as it's mental stat, I can see having the class use this.
I would rather see CHA be used in place of swashbuckler's class for damage when using Precise strike, but have the CHA bonus get a multiplier every couple of levels to balance it out. So if your charisma modifier is 3, then it should get x2 after 4 or so levels, then x3 after the same amount of levels, until you hit 20 with x4 or x5, depending on the progression.
Why? because that's just like the duelist, and if anyone wanted to dip into duelist, then they are essentially loosing one of the more worthwhile aspects of taking that prestige class. I like the idea of a swashbuckler; who's good at fighting everyone; training with a master fencer to become apt at dueling, thus becoming a Duelist. otherwise, the swashbuckler takes away a strong reason to take that prestige class. Unless that's the point?
With regards to Sally/Fred
With two actual builds, I don't see a problem with Swashbuckler at level 10. She's within 1d6 DPR of a fighter, and she's supposed to be a front line combatant. She's far behind what a barbarian could dish out at that same level with a falchion, so again, it depends on your definition of balanced.
Anything that lands in the zone between Barbarian and Rogue on the DPR side, I consider to be balanced (from a combat perspective). I don't care if it's better than Fighter specifically, or Rogue, or even both. Just because it's a Fighter/Rogue hybrid doesn't mean it has to be somewhere between the two balance wise. Sometimes you get synergy bonuses, and this seems to be a case where the synergy of the two classes gives the stronger one a very very slight boost over the original.
For non-combat, the SB get's fewer skills than the Rogue, and requires both Dex and Charisma, with the Rogue able to get by on only Dex. So that's again somewhere between the Rogue/Bard (best skill monkeys) and Fighter/Sorcerer (Worst skill monkeys). SO again, balanced IMHO.
Unless that's the point?
That is the point. Paizo hates prestige classes.
Unless that's the point?That is the point. Paizo hates prestige classes.
Good to know. But now I'm confused as to why they have them?
Good to know. But now I'm confused as to why they have them?Unless that's the point?That is the point. Paizo hates prestige classes.
Mostly, backward compatibility with 3.5. I'm not sure why they included new ones in the APG (maybe they weren't sure the archetypes would work as well as they have). But they haven't put out any since in their core materials.
OK, I'm going to break my own thing to give my other friends from that thread a snapshot of Sally at level 10. Fred linked by Kolokotroni from the DPR Olympics is the basis for this (I think we can all agree that a DPR Olympics build will not be a "mediocre" build). I was actually shocked that Sally was only 3 AC behind Fred.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Truthfully, I'm not very familiar with the DPR Olympics rules, do they require them to be using the Heroic NPC stats of 15,14,13,12,10,8?
If not, then I would say those really are mediocre builds.
I would also expect more people to go the Dervish Dancer route rather than a strength build on the Swashbuckler. This bumps the AC by 2 at minimum (+4 if it's mithril chain) while dealing the same amount of damage (swap Dex and Str so you keep Power Attack).
With regards to Sally/Fred
With two actual builds, I don't see a problem with Swashbuckler at level 10. She's within 1d6 DPR of a fighter, and she's supposed to be a front line combatant. She's far behind what a barbarian could dish out at that same level with a falchion, so again, it depends on your definition of balanced.
Anything that lands in the zone between Barbarian and Rogue on the DPR side, I consider to be balanced (from a combat perspective). I don't care if it's better than Fighter specifically, or Rogue, or even both. Just because it's a Fighter/Rogue hybrid doesn't mean it has to be somewhere between the two balance wise. Sometimes you get synergy bonuses, and this seems to be a case where the synergy of the two classes gives the stronger one a very very slight boost over the original.
For non-combat, the SB get's fewer skills than the Rogue, and requires both Dex and Charisma, with the Rogue able to get by on only Dex. So that's again somewhere between the Rogue/Bard (best skill monkeys) and Fighter/Sorcerer (Worst skill monkeys). SO again, balanced IMHO.
Hey, as long as we agree it's higher damage than the two-handed fighter (while also still having all those deeds), I'm cool with all that. You make lots of solid points. My whole thread was just to show that one point. Also, since I played Shattered Star with a Falchion Barbarian past level 10, I figured I would include him so we can see how much he beats them both by. He was over-WBL due to being a real character, so I switched him to buy similar things to Fred. Also he usually had a prebuff keen edge up, so I had t omake him lose Ghost Rager to get Improved Critical compared to the original version.
Ability Scores:
STR: 26 (+6)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 18 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 10 (+0)
CHA: 10 (+0)
HP: 106 HP (10d12+40)
Saving Throws
Fort: +13 Ref: +7 Will: +5 (+7 MORE vs spells, spell-likes, and supernatural but can't be willing)
AC: 19 - Touch 11, Flatfooted 17 (+5 +1 chain shirt, +2 dex, +3 Beast Totem, +1 Ring of Protection, -2 Rage)
Attacks: Falchion +22/+17, 2d4+16 dmg (+3 vs many many enemies that have spell-like abilities or spells) (15-20/x2) + Bite +13, 1d4+4 damage
BAB: +10 CMB: +18 CMD: 27
Rage Powers:
Lesser Beast Totem, Superstition, Beast Totem, Witch Hunter, Greater Beast Totem
Feats:
Power Attack, Enforcer, Raging Vitality, Intimidating Prowess, Improved Critical (falchion)
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
+2 furious falchion
Belt of +4 str
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
+1 adaptive Masterwork composite longbow
Ring of Protection +1
1600 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
So he is actually slightly behind Fred against non-magical enemies due to his amazing intimidation abilities making him lose Weapon Focus. If he deleted those for Weapon Focus and Extra Rage Power (Ghost Rager), his touch AC goes way up and he is tied with Fred for non-magical enemies and ahead for most enemies. Memory's AC is as much worse than Sally as Sally is than Fred, but his saves are phenomenal.
I can tell you that Memory held his own on a team with a kitsune fey sorceress and a god wizard, so he's no slouch. He was probably the MVP, though he needed the others to buff him.
OK, I'm going to break my own thing to give my other friends from that thread a snapshot of Sally at level 10. Fred linked by Kolokotroni from the DPR Olympics is the basis for this (I think we can all agree that a DPR Olympics build will not be a "mediocre" build). I was actually shocked that Sally was only 3 AC behind Fred.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Truthfully, I'm not very familiar with the DPR Olympics rules, do they require them to be using the Heroic NPC stats of 15,14,13,12,10,8?
If not, then I would say those really are mediocre builds.
I would also expect more people to go the Dervish Dancer route rather than a strength build on the Swashbuckler. This bumps the AC by 2 at minimum (+4 if it's mithril chain) while dealing the same amount of damage (swap Dex and Str so you keep Power Attack).
Yes, but I'm trying to ignore Dervish Dance for now. You're correct that if the GM allows Dervish Dance, it looks like the swashbuckler is essentially better than the fighter in all ways (assuming having 8 better Reflex is better than having 4 better Fortitude due to the doubling, which I think it probably is) except against opponents who negate the precision damage. Even without Dervish Dance, at level 11 the swash gets another point of AC and can buy 2 points of AC for roughly the same price as the fighter can buy 1 (using that extra 1000 we saved). So in fact at level 11, Sally would only be 1 point of AC behind Fred even without Dervish. With Dervish, she's in fact going to be 2 points ahead (since she drops Dodge for Dervish, canceling one of the 4 AC she gains from 22 Dex).
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These high str, low int (and low cha) builds kind of strike me as missing the point of the class. Are you just stress testing with them to feel out abuse potential, or suggesting these as reasonable ways to throw the character together?
I suppose the fact that you can (theoretically) potentially dump charisma and make up for it with feats suggests they could stand to benefit from it in other ways (since it's thematically essential) but... low int really seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot on both the roleplaying front (no skills, no making witty comebacks), and severely limiting your feat selection (basically every swashbuckler-y feat requires 13 int). Plus if you're making strength your best stat, standard fighter seems like it would save you a headache.
Just because it's a Fighter/Rogue hybrid doesn't mean it has to be somewhere between the two balance wise. Sometimes you get synergy bonuses, and this seems to be a case where the synergy of the two classes gives the stronger one a very very slight boost over the original.
This is in no way a fighter/rogue. It's a fighter/fighter, really. Like the gunslinger it's stealing deeds from, it exists because there is a style of fighter people want to play which does not mesh with how standard fighters are put together. It really doesn't have anything else going on the side, it's still just: hit things with a weapon/don't die when they hit back/look cool doing it.
Interesting. Running Fred and Sally through the DPR calculator, against the "typical" AC 24 of a CR 10 opponent, their DPR is... almost identical. 56.91 for Sally and 56.55 for Fred (assuming both are Power Attacking, and they should be). And the price for maintaining that parity is substantial losses of both AC and saves for Sally vs Fred. Adding in the expected DPR increase for "burning off" the extra panache from a confirmed crit increases Sally's DPR by 3.891 - sizable, but certainly not game-breaking, and you're paying for it with -3 AC, -4 Fort and no Will save reroll. I'm not sure there's actually a problem here.
DPR calculator? Is there a spreadsheet or something around for that? I think I could probably improve on Fred there, would be interested in running the numbers.
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All of the Swashbuckler's class features, aside from the 4 skill points, are related to combat. This leaves this class with very little narrative power and ability to engage in the story in a meaningful fashion outside of the "kills things" scope. The class is a hammer and every problem is going to look like a nail.
That's not terribly different from the predicament that several full BAB progression classes find themselves in, especially the Fighter.
To me the Swashbuckler seems ahead of several of the full BAB classes in engaging with the story because of the 4 skill points and some very story-relevant class skills, which include all of the big 4 social interaction skills (Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motive), which means we have a full BAB class that, because of the skill points, class skills, and synergy with the Charisma stat, is probably *almost* as capable as Rogues and Bards at solving problems with mundane talking, and has a Fighter/Barbarian-grade damage output to fall back on if negotiations fail.
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Going Dervish costs her two feats, not one. As things stand currently, Weapon Finesse is not granted by the class - she has to buy it separately to take advantage of any of the feats that use it as a prereq, including DD. Crit Focus is probably the next softest feat to drop, but it's about -2 DPR...
EDIT: sidebar to the above, I forgot to include Critical Focus when I ran the DPR numbers before. Fred is at 59.25, and Sally with it is at 58.94, 56.91 without it. I also slightly screwed up the math on the panache point to double precise strike - it actually adds ~3.31 DPR. Which means that Dervish Sally has almost exactly the same DPR burning panache but losing Crit Focus that Fred does as he stands. (She does have other benefits, of course, as previous established.)
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Could anyone explain to me a mechanical reason why the Precise Strike damage does not multiply on a critical hit?
As far as I know, all non-dice bonus damage multiplies on crits, such as from Power Attack. I think even the Duelist's version of Precise Strike multiplies on crits. So why is the Swashbuckler's bonus singled-out? The part about it being "precision" damage is a little iffy for a reason, because the only precision damage we've seen before have been bonus damage dice, right?
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Could anyone explain to me a mechanical reason why the Precise Strike damage does not multiply on a critical hit?
As far as I know, all non-dice bonus damage multiplies on crits, such as from Power Attack. I think even the Duelist's version of Precise Strike multiplies on crits. So why is the Swashbuckler's bonus singled-out? The part about it being "precision" damage is a little iffy for a reason, because the only precision damage we've seen before have been bonus damage dice, right?
It's considered Precision Damage. And Precision Damage is never multiplied.
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The question for me is: "Is having the same predicament of other full bab class related to interaction with the story/narrative power a good idea?" Several of the other martial classes have been given abilities to interact with the story beyond "I hit it with my sword", so it's obviously not a mutually exclusive thing.All of the Swashbuckler's class features, aside from the 4 skill points, are related to combat. This leaves this class with very little narrative power and ability to engage in the story in a meaningful fashion outside of the "kills things" scope. The class is a hammer and every problem is going to look like a nail.That's not terribly different from the predicament that several full BAB progression classes find themselves in, especially the Fighter.
To me the Swashbuckler seems ahead of several of the full BAB classes in engaging with the story because of the 4 skill points and some very story-relevant class skills, which include the big 3 social interaction skills (Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy)
In an interaction/RP heavy campaign, I would rather be a Swashbuckler than most of the other full BAB classes, because as compared to most of the full BAB classes, the Swashbuckler wins at talking.
The Ranger gets more skill points and a lot of outdoorsy skills, but lacks the social skills as class skills and lacks CharOp/Combat reasons to max out Charisma, so the Ranger is not going to be doing much talking.
Even the Paladin, which is supposed to be a more "social" full BAB class, does not get all of the social interaction skills as class skills, and then there are also the stringent conduct requirements. I'm pretty sure just using the Bluff skill to do anything other than feint is probably a breach of a typical Paladin's vows.
Other than the Cavalier, I don't see any other full BAB classes that have the skills to let them open their mouth in *any* given social situation without ever risking placing their foot in it.
In most "Swashbuckler" media that I am aware of, the Swashbuckler types of character generally do solve all of their problems by fighting them, climbing them, jumping over them, or talking to them, and with all of the social skills, the Swashbuckler is capable of engaging socially with other creatures in every possible way.
Plus, they have Perception and Sleight of Hand as class skills, which open up a lot of doors as far as ways to use their wits and trickery to overcome problems.
It's considered Precision Damage. And Precision Damage is never multiplied.Could anyone explain to me a mechanical reason why the Precise Strike damage does not multiply on a critical hit?
As far as I know, all non-dice bonus damage multiplies on crits, such as from Power Attack. I think even the Duelist's version of Precise Strike multiplies on crits. So why is the Swashbuckler's bonus singled-out? The part about it being "precision" damage is a little iffy for a reason, because the only precision damage we've seen before have been bonus damage dice, right?
Where is that? I did a search for "Precision Damage" in the PRD and came up bubkiss.
It's one of those 'soft defined' terms. Sneak Attack is the classic example. Swashbuckler (archetype, not class) Int Bonus damage is another.
These high str, low int (and low cha) builds kind of strike me as missing the point of the class. Are you just stress testing with them to feel out abuse potential, or suggesting these as reasonable ways to throw the character together?
I suppose the fact that you can (theoretically) potentially dump charisma and make up for it with feats suggests they could stand to benefit from it in other ways (since it's thematically essential) but... low int really seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot on both the roleplaying front (no skills, no making witty comebacks), and severely limiting your feat selection (basically every swashbuckler-y feat requires 13 int). Plus if you're making strength your best stat, standard fighter seems like it would save you a headache.
The Str-based build exists due to being easier to compare to a fighter, given not using Dervish Dance or agile weapons. Basically, so I can say "Sally just does whatever Fred does". Sally is presumed, by the way, to use no swashbuckler deeds ever other than Precise Strike (doubling Precise Strike each time she crits on her next hit). The idea is from a now-closed thread to show that Swashbuckler mathematically gets just a teeny bit too much damage compared to fighter (since it can beat fighter while having abilities left over). My thoughts are that swash should take a small loss to damage and then gain back the ability to deal precision damage to undead and constructs.
Possibilities:
1) What if we forced a build like the one you suggest by requiring Weapon Finesse to get Precise Strike. If we put our fingers in our ears about agile and Dervish Dance, this is actually a pretty darn good solution, as it takes off more and more from the swashbuckler at the levels where my chart shows she is most ahead, while only causing a smaller hit at low levels (For instance, if Sally switched Strength and Dexterity, she would lose 4 damage per hit, while gaining 4 AC by buying mithral which she has extra money to do, 4 Reflex, 4 to init and skills, etc). Losing 4 damage like that makes her dip slightly lower than the falchion fighter, but she gains a lot. The problem is Dervish Dance and agile remove this as a factor, so in campaigns allowing those, my suggestion is a strict buff (since it includes allowing precision to undead and constructs).
2) Halve precise strike damage but allow it to multiply on a crit (and thus triple if you luck out and crit after having doubled it already) and apply to undead and constructs while continuing to allow Str-based builds. The advantage is that this also actually limits damage for a Dervish or agile build. Also, because the damage gets multiplied on a crit, it makes the 20th level capstone more useful for the swash, and the crit being applied means it doesn't hurt damage as much as it might seem at first.
3) Your idea here!
Going Dervish costs her two feats, not one. As things stand currently, Weapon Finesse is not granted by the class - she has to buy it separately to take advantage of any of the feats that use it as a prereq, including DD. Crit Focus is probably the next softest feat to drop, but it's about -2 DPR...
Verrrry interesting. Somehow I doubt that it won't count for a prereq in the end though. If SLAs can count for prestige classe prereqs, I think this is going to wind up counting for prereqs. But you're right that for now we need to take off a feat.
It's one of those 'soft defined' terms. Sneak Attack is the classic example. Swashbuckler (archetype, not class) Int Bonus damage is another.
Alright then. But even if this is true, what I was really asking was:
Why SHOULDN'T the precise strike damage multiply? As in, forget types of damage, what would really be the game-balance reason to disallow Precise Strike to multiply? Is the damage bonus simply too large?
The way I see it, Precise Strike makes up for not being able to two-hand a weapon for 1.5 Str and Power Attack bonus, both of which multiply on crits.
Am I just seeing it wrong?
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Let's do a recap of all the Swashbuckler's strengths and weaknesses noticed by contributors to this thread, including the suggestions, propositions and ideas to fix them.
Please excuse me in advance if I don't gratify each suggestion with its original poster's nickname :
Negative : "The class is too Dex-based."
Counterargument : Being Dex-based is the class's whole concept, the same way a Wizard is too Intelligence-based or a Barbarian too focused on damage and awesomeness.
Origin : Swashbucklers typically dump Str for points in sheer awesomeness and agility, aka the Dex/Cha combo.
Negative : "The choice of weapons is too limited."
Origin : The weapon selection is currently odd and missing iconic choices.
Suggestions :
- Grant more weapon proficiencies (especially blade/sword-like weapons)
- Create a "Dueling Weapons" group.
- Grant to the Swash the ability to finesse more weapons than usual.
Negative : "The choice of weapons is effectively pigeonholed."
Origin : The weapon selection is effectively limited by Panache recovered by critical hits AND Dervish Dancing, making Rapier and Scimitar basically the only weapons you'll ever want.
Suggestions :
- Grant the ability to change the base crit-range of x2 weapons you wield to 18-20, stacking with Improved Critical, effectively making all 19-20/20x2 weapons viable choices (at the expense of having at least 1 panache or accuracy/damage or having a bonus for the rapier to counterbalance)
- Grant the ability to recover Panache with another method.
Negative : "The class is highly limited in builds" AKA "I can't survive 1st level" AKA "I can't pick thematic feats because of the prerequisites" AKA "I can't use my class features without feat taxes"
Origin : You NEED the Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes feats to use most of your base class abilities, or be efficient. This means even a human will suffer, even more other races. 2nd level is too late for finesse if you have to survive a sucky uslessness at 1st level...
Positive : Swashbuckler's finesse allows for cool, original weapons like tridents !
Suggestions :
- Grant the ability to change the base crit-range of x2 weapons you wield to 18-20, stacking with Improved Critical, effectively making all 19-20/20x2 weapons viable choices (at the expense of having at least 1 panache or accuracy/damage or having a bonus for the rapier to counterbalance)
- Grant the ability to recover Panache with another method for such weapons (explosive dice ?)
- Give Weapon Finesse at 1st level (eventually, lose this feat if you multiclass too early in order to avoid dipping)
- Grant to the Swash the ability to ignore the "13 Int" and "Combat Expertise" prerequisites for feats so it can take thematic abilities
- Grant a list of bonus feats like a monk in which they must pick without meeting the prerequisites
Negative : "Precise Strike does not work on too many creatures to be effective in the long run."
Origin : Outdated limitations to this kind of precision damage.
Suggestions :
- Adopt the rogue's 3.P precision damage
- Don't allow this damage and Str/Dex bonuses to damage to stack ; in which case the Swift Action double damage may have half this total damage multipliable on a crit
Negative : "Precise Strike does not work when wielding a buckler or another weapon."
Origin : Self-explained.
Suggestions :
- Make the bonus damage work only for the main weapon or reduce its effectiveness if wielding another item. You should be able to wield both a rapier and a main gauche without getting neutered especially considering the feat investment for such build. Come on dudes, it's the Swashbuckler, not the Swashhandfree.
Negative : "The class doesn't receive Dex/Cha-to-damage."
Counterargument : Precise Strike already grants a more fleshy, quite potent damage boost scaling with level. Also, subjective, but this may be felt as boring and unoriginal.
Origin : Self-explanatory.
Suggestions :
- Grant the class the equivalent of the Gunslinger's damage boost, if possible early, so it also denies the need for Dervish Dance
Negative : "The Swash only has one good saving throw, and not the best to survive melee and be just as awesome and daring as he should be."
Origin : Reflexes is much less deadly than other saving throws, and since you'll likely need to go melee AND dump other mental stats, you'll have abysmal survival chances against poison/domination/charm while Dexterity will already boost Ref to stratosphere.
Suggestions :
- Cha modifier to Will saves (substitution ; maybe this ability would not work against characters you may sexually get attracted to so this sexy sorceress can charm your sorry seducer ass easily ?)
- Two good saves (Fort/Ref or Will/Ref)
- Two or all "average saves", an unique, original middle ground between good and bad saves so you get a jack-of-all-trades all-daring character
Negative : "Bravery sucks."
Counterargument : It fits the class's fluff perfectly.
Origin : We all know Bravery's only purpose is to get replaced by archetypes. A +1 bonus every hundred levels against a highly-limited in actual gameplay effect ?
Suggestions :
- Changing it for another cool option instead. Bonus Panache ? Immunity to fear effects like a paladin ? Cha to Will saves like suggested in the previous point ?
Negative : "Opportune Parry and Counterattack cost too much."
Origin : 1 point of panache + 1 AoO + 1 point of panache + 1 AoO = mandatory "Combat Reflexes + minimum 16 Cha" build just to use your class abilities once a day without being left defenseless/offenseless until 6th level.
Suggestions :
- Making the two deeds a single one, costing 1 panache and 1 AoO
Negative : "Small swashbucklers are screwed."
Origin : The cumulative -4 penalty to Opportune Parry makes it hard to do what it says on the can about small swashbucklers punishing big brutes.
Suggestions :
- Reducing/removing/rebalancing the penalty/advantages for small-sized characters, and/or writing an archetype better fit for fighting against enemies one size category larger or more.
Please add anything I may have missed to this recap list (I know higher levels have their own things to reconsider like the Targetting deed), fellow future Swashbucklers !
It's one of those 'soft defined' terms. Sneak Attack is the classic example. Swashbuckler (archetype, not class) Int Bonus damage is another.Alright then. But even if this is true, what I was really asking was:
Why SHOULDN'T the precise strike damage multiply? As in, forget types of damage, what would really be the game-balance reason to disallow Precise Strike to multiply? Is the damage bonus simply too large?
The way I see it, Precise Strike makes up for not being able to two-hand a weapon for 1.5 Str and Power Attack bonus, both of which multiply on crits.
Am I just seeing it wrong?
Because then it could be argued that, being precision damage, Sneak Attack should multiply. Same type of damage.
The Developers (all the way back to 3.0 at least) have had a firm line in the sand about precision damage, even when they didn't call it that.
I think a better qeustion would be, why should the Swashbuckler be the special snowflake who can multiply precision damage when nobody else can?
It's one of those 'soft defined' terms. Sneak Attack is the classic example. Swashbuckler (archetype, not class) Int Bonus damage is another.Alright then. But even if this is true, what I was really asking was:
Why SHOULDN'T the precise strike damage multiply? As in, forget types of damage, what would really be the game-balance reason to disallow Precise Strike to multiply? Is the damage bonus simply too large?
The way I see it, Precise Strike makes up for not being able to two-hand a weapon for 1.5 Str and Power Attack bonus, both of which multiply on crits.
Am I just seeing it wrong?
Trust me, if you allowed it to double without doing anything else, DPR would explode (remember, you can spend 1 panache to double it, which is sort of like having it double on a crit, since a crit gives you 1 panache, only it's better since other things give you 1 panache and since you can "save up" your extra damage if you get a crit on an enemy that was already at low health).
How about making the precise strike damage be in lieu of strength. This weakens the strength build because it does not stack with the strength to damage and it also shuts down dervish dance and agile as well which replace strength.
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How about making the precise strike damage be in lieu of strength. This weakens the strength build because it does not stack with the strength to damage and it also shuts down dervish dance and agile as well which replace strength.
I'm not sure if it becomes necessary to crack down on Agile. It takes quite a while to acquire using standard wealth-by-level and even assuming that magic item purchases are allowed, and requires sacrificing another +1 equivalent weapon ability or a flat +1 on attacks and damage.
Narrative power/ability to interact and affect the story doesn't have to be social or combat. It can also involve finding where to go next, travel capabilities, finding things. Generally things that change the situation.
Paladin: Spells. There's bundles of spells here that give narrative ability. Here's a fairly extensive list: Paladin Spells. Take a look at all the ones that don't involve combat, but let the paladin change the situation/have control over what direction the story takes.
Paladins also get the following class abilities: Detect Evil, Mercy which have non-combat narrative power.
Barbarians: Multiple Rage Powers can give bonuses to skill checks, change the enviornment around the barbarian, detect evil, dispel magical effects. Not as much narrative power and non-combat capabilities as a full caster, but there is some non-combat capability there that remains thematic to the class concept.
Ranger: Spells, Favoured Enemy (lots of skill bonuses), Wild Empathy, Track, Favoured Terrain, Hunter's Bond (via either the companion bond or capabilities of the animal companion), Woodland Stride, Quarry, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, Master Hunter.
I agree that those other full BAB classes have their own ways of engaging with the story non-combatively. Those characters interact with the environment from different angles than the Swashbuckler does and often in different subject areas. The archetypal Swashbuckler does not generally engage with animals, the wilderness, holy or unholy forces, or magic in general. However, I think all of those classes are inferior to the Swashbuckler in their ability to engage socially with other intelligent beings. The fact that it is possible to build a Sawshbuckler who can keep pace, in the social skill arena, with Rogues and Bards (except those specifically optimized for social interaction, who have probably given up combat abilities to do so, such as by taking the Master Spy prestige class or some of the social-boosting archetypes) while also having potentially Fighter-grade DPR and AC should not be underestimated. True, they aren't class abilities that change in scope or do anything other than get another +1 every level, but the scope of Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Bluff increases by the nature of those skills, because every few plusses you get to that skill group is another whole class of people that you can now interact with in *any* social context and come out ahead.
Especially since the descriptions of most of the social skills make it clear that if you can hit high DCs consistently, you can get away with some truly stunning social victories. At some point, you get enough bonus, to say, Bluff, that you gain the ability to tell the king a giant whopper of a lie and get away with it, or use Bluff to sell ice cubes in the frozen north, or use Diplomacy to convince the man who's brother you killed that you're not such a bad guy or gal.
How about making the precise strike damage be in lieu of strength. This weakens the strength build because it does not stack with the strength to damage and it also shuts down dervish dance and agile as well which replace strength.
Hmmmm, that has potential. If we did that, let's make it work on all foes and also double on a crit, since it replaces Strength. I am interested in math-ing that out.
It's one of those 'soft defined' terms. Sneak Attack is the classic example. Swashbuckler (archetype, not class) Int Bonus damage is another.Alright then. But even if this is true, what I was really asking was:
Why SHOULDN'T the precise strike damage multiply? As in, forget types of damage, what would really be the game-balance reason to disallow Precise Strike to multiply? Is the damage bonus simply too large?
The way I see it, Precise Strike makes up for not being able to two-hand a weapon for 1.5 Str and Power Attack bonus, both of which multiply on crits.
Am I just seeing it wrong?
Because then it could be argued that, being precision damage, Sneak Attack should multiply. Same type of damage.
The Developers (all the way back to 3.0 at least) have had a firm line in the sand about precision damage, even when they didn't call it that.
I think a better qeustion would be, why should the Swashbuckler be the special snowflake who can multiply precision damage when nobody else can?
Well okay, to bring BACK the question about types of damage:
First: "precision" damage is not a type, like you said. It is not a rules quality that you can make rulings off of. It currently exists as flavor and nothing more.
Second: Your stipulation that "if Precise Strike can multiply, then so can Sneak Attack" is fouled by the already pre-existing, hard-rules stiupulation that bonus damage in the form of bonus damage dice are never multiplied (from sneak attacks, to the flaming weapon property) while static damage bonuses, like from Power Attack, do.
Rogue Eidolon:
I'm missing something, I think. You can't decide to spent the swift action to double damage after you rolled the crit confirm, can you? Honestly I would rather get rid of the doubling for 1 panache and just let the bonus multiply on crits like every other static-number bonus to damage in the game.
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I think you are tilting at windmills if you expect the devs to allow precision damage of any type to multiply on a crit.
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I think you are tilting at windmills if you expect the devs to allow precision damage of any type to multiply on a crit.
Very serious windmills. And I should know. I'm quixotic. ;)
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How about making the precise strike damage be in lieu of strength. This weakens the strength build because it does not stack with the strength to damage and it also shuts down dervish dance and agile as well which replace strength.
I suggested just that in my second post :)
I'd like to expand on my first post.
- I like Precise Strike. Avoiding the whole "dex-to-damage" was in my opinion a clever choice, and in return you get a nifty bonus to damage. The fact this is precision damage that will not work on a good half of the bestiary is a letdown though. If you don't want the class to become a dip paradise abused by feat combos, I would even go as far as to suggest this bonus does not stack with any ability that allows you to add your Str or Dex bonus to damage, but half of this bonus damage is normal damage which can be multiplied on a crit.
Fun fact : this ability would make the Swash actually closer to the way firearms work, because its primary melee stat would only determine the likeness of hitting, not the damage inflicted !
All damage would come from hitting with precision and being experimented/leveled enough as a fencer, not pumping yet another Str or Dex modifier to damage. (And I find this pretty cool and fresh.)
Alright Temeryn, your version, as clarified by me, does 6 less damage at level 10 than Sally, but the crit potential gives 3 expected damage per hit (10 * 6/20), so she is 3 behind. Against enemies currently immune to precise strike, she is 7 points ahead of Sally, since we're eliminating the immunity. Plus of course she gets the AC and other advantages of the Dex. In fact she can put a lower stat in Strength too, which I haven't done yet, which buffs her even more. This actually seems pretty good. Mathematically, I like your idea Temeryn, and it's an elegant way to block Dervish and agile!
How about making the precise strike damage be in lieu of strength. This weakens the strength build because it does not stack with the strength to damage and it also shuts down dervish dance and agile as well which replace strength.I'm not sure if it becomes necessary to crack down on Agile. It takes quite a while to acquire using standard wealth-by-level and even assuming that magic item purchases are allowed, and requires sacrificing another +1 equivalent weapon ability or a flat +1 on attacks and damage.
Well the main thing is stopping dervish dance.
Losing agile is a side effect, but allowing agile and not allowing agile will result in different levels of base power for the swashbuckler. For a primary dexterity using fighting class, agile is in a sense an enhancement tax like selective channeling is for feats. It is too good of an option to pass up and the class therefore must be balanced around having that feature because it is better than having another +1.
Therefore, it shouldn't matter either way because if agile is not allowed, swashbuckler needs to be a stronger class to make up for it and vice versa.
Let's do a recap of all the Swashbuckler's strengths and weaknesses noticed by contributors to this thread, including the suggestions, propositions and ideas to fix them.
Please excuse me in advance if I don't gratify each suggestion with its original poster's nickname :
Negative : "The class is too Dex-based."
Counterargument : Being Dex-based is the class's whole concept, the same way a Wizard is too Intelligence-based or a Barbarian too focused on damage and awesomeness.
Origin : Swashbucklers typically dump Str for points in sheer awesomeness and agility, aka the Dex/Cha combo.Negative : "The choice of weapons is too limited."
Origin : The weapon selection is currently odd and missing iconic choices.
Suggestions :
- Grant more weapon proficiencies (especially blade/sword-like weapons)
- Create a "Dueling Weapons" group.
- Grant to the Swash the ability to finesse more weapons than usual.Negative : "The choice of weapons is effectively pigeonholed."
Origin : The weapon selection is effectively limited by Panache recovered by critical hits AND Dervish Dancing, making Rapier and Scimitar basically the only weapons you'll ever want.
Suggestions :
- Grant the ability to change the base crit-range of x2 weapons you wield to 18-20, stacking with Improved Critical, effectively making all 19-20/20x2 weapons viable choices (at the expense of having at least 1 panache or accuracy/damage or having a bonus for the rapier to counterbalance)
- Grant the ability to recover Panache with another method.Negative : "The class is highly limited in builds" AKA "I can't survive 1st level" AKA "I can't pick thematic feats because of the prerequisites" AKA "I can't use my class features without feat taxes"
Origin : You NEED the Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes feats to use most of your base class abilities, or be efficient. This means even a human will suffer, even more other races. 2nd level is too late for finesse if you have to survive a sucky uslessness at 1st level...
Positive : Swashbuckler's...
I'd like to add movement based abilities. Daring-do is conceptually great, mechanically clunky/weak for the cost
Thanks for making this list, by the way
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I think you are tilting at windmills if you expect the devs to allow precision damage of any type to multiply on a crit.
So then.. lets not call it precision damage? All previous precision damage is bonus dice, which cannot under any circumstances multiply on crits, and I would never suggest them doing so.
Why is a static bonus to damage not multiplying? It breaks previous rules assumptions for little reason. Unless I'm missing something, there is NO other static bonus to damage in the game that does not multiply on critical hits.
The Duelist PrC's Precise Strike does multiply on critical hits, and is not called out as precision damage. But even if it was, as you said there is no rules-element to the wording of "precision damage" in the PRD, so there is no rule stating, hard and fast, that "precision damage never multiplies". Therefore the Duelist's precise strike, which does NOT have a clause disallowing multiplication on critical hits, would multiply on critical hits, whether it's precision damage or not.
How about making the precise strike damage be in lieu of strength. This weakens the strength build because it does not stack with the strength to damage and it also shuts down dervish dance and agile as well which replace strength.I'm not sure if it becomes necessary to crack down on Agile. It takes quite a while to acquire using standard wealth-by-level and even assuming that magic item purchases are allowed, and requires sacrificing another +1 equivalent weapon ability or a flat +1 on attacks and damage.Well the main thing is stopping dervish dance.
Losing agile is a side effect, but allowing agile and not allowing agile will result in different levels of base power for the swashbuckler. For a primary dexterity using fighting class, agile is in a sense an enhancement tax like selective channeling is for feats. It is too good of an option to pass up and the class therefore must be balanced around having that feature because it is better than having another +1.
Therefore, it shouldn't matter either way because if agile is not allowed, swashbuckler needs to be a stronger class to make up for it and vice versa.
Don't forget that agile and dervish are in Golarion books. The main design team are of the opinion that Dex to damage should be mythic, so it wouldn't be fair if they designed a core rules line class (which should stand alone) in such a way that it requires agile or DD to work. That said, for PFS and games where GMs allow those two features, it's important to remember they exist, which is why your method is pretty good.
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I did a search for "Precision Damage" in the PRD and came up bubkiss.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Your search-fu needs work.
Why are so many people butt-hurt over dervish dance and agile weapons?
I did a search for "Precision Damage" in the PRD and came up bubkiss.Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.Your search-fu needs work.
While you dishonor my search-fu, I graciously accept defeat in this battle. Precision damage does seem to have a mechanical rules effect.
However, my war is not over. A Duelist's Precise Strike is not called precision damage (despite what your intuition might tell you) because the term "precision damage" at the time of writing that passage, 100% referred to additional bonus damage dice. Since the Duelist's precise ability to precisely deal damage with their Precise Strike dealt this precise damage in the form of a static bonus, it was specifically (and precisely) not called "precision damage". And it multiplies on a crit.
Why is this different for the Swashbuckler?