RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Amusing thought of the morning...
While I disagree with how Precise Strike is, as in the duelist, restricted to only working when not attacking with a weapon in the off hand or using a shield. I just realized, here's a class that's perfect for the Tankard of the Cheerful Duelist. :-)
More seriously, I'd say just keep the weapon out of the off hand. If they want to swash their buckle, or hold a wand, or potion, or a turkey leg, or the fair maiden's hand (or a tankard) let them. If they use the wand/turkey leg/maiden as a weapon, they lose the bonus.
Should Daring-do cost anything. The benefit seems minimal, couldn't it just be active as long as you have one point left.
I wouldn't mind seeing Swashbuckler Finesse moved to first level and just granting regular Weapon Finesse but letting the Swashbuckler apply it to all one handed and lighter weapons (other class abilities would need to function for such weapons as well.)
Swift Feint seems a little slow. Same with Targeted Strike, considering you need to move into position first since you are using a melee weapon and then hope your opponent stays still, or you wait for them to move into your full attack range but that seems to go against the flavour since you are sacrificing the initiative.
I would love to see a deed that lets the Swashbuckler move as a swift action, this would give them greater mobility and up potential DPR by granting more full-attack actions. It would need to include the "This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other effect that reduces the amount of panache a deed costs" wording so it isn't happening all the time though.
I would also like to see Riposte and Opportune Parry rolled into one ability the combos cost is prohibitively high right now.
The class looks fun just a little clunky and pigeonholed.
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The Dawn/Debbie Debug argument is full of one major problem: Dervish Dance requires 2 ranks of Perform: Dance. You are not taking it before level 2 UNLESS you are a specific bard, so the comparison isn't exactly accurate. That said, I don't disagree with moving the pseudo-finesse to 1st level, but I think it should stay pseudo, because let's face it, it's better.
Overall, I think this class hits almost all the marks it needs to, though it is quite a stat heavy class.
I do think the panache limitation is what is keeping it in check. If it had much more than it currently does, then it would have an insane number of actions and could completely turtle. As it is, it can do a good job of that anyway.
That being said, I can NOT wait to build the Dread Pirate Westley to test this out.
Also said, I was really hoping to see them able to use their off-hand a bit better than they are able to now. I think that precise strike should not have the empty free hand requirements and I would love the class to death.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Those needing a bludgeoning solution that works with fineses (hoping that the ruling is clearer on the swashbuckler application) need look no further than the Hanbo... which can be said to be/disguised as a walking stick.
oooh. and if you have an archtype that can two weapon fight...
Nightwing!
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Swashbuckler does NOT have to be a pirate. A swashbuckler CAN be a pirate. many people will play a charismatic and agile fighter and not want him to be seen as criminal.
Many games don't have firearms, so it is best left as an archetype. I've seen and read of swashbucklers that did not use guns at all.
Free weapon finesse is not game breaking as a level 1 dip because you can already do it! Take 1 level of fighter, free weapon finesse with full BAB progression and fort bonus.
Can you use natural attack claws as light piercing weapon for the purposes of this class because I would love to play a catfolk swashbuckler?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Are we even playing the same game? Please don't lead Paizo to believe this ability is good, because it isn't.
Apparently not. I'm playing a game where my character is part of a team and sometimes takes a secondary role to ensure the success of the group. You are apparently playing against your team in a race to see who can get the most DPR.
Beyond that, the conditions under which you cannot apply Precise Strike have nothing whatever to do with the target's Dex bonus to AC.
I was pointing out a situation in which swift feint might be useful. When you are denied a large part of your damage, it is less painful to give up your attacks to help the rest of the team.
As far as the Rogue is concerned, against most enemies you could just flank with him.
Maybe the rogue can't flank for some reason (the enemy blocks the corridor and he's unable to make the Acrobatics check to get to the other side of the enemy) or the rogue must choose to make a full attack without sneak attack or move and get only one attack with sneak attack. One swift feint later and you set your rogue up for greatness.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Swashbuckler does NOT have to be a pirate. A swashbuckler CAN be a pirate. many people will play a charismatic and agile fighter and not want him to be seen as criminal.
Many games don't have firearms, so it is best left as an archetype. I've seen and read of swashbucklers that did not use guns at all.
Free weapon finesse is not game breaking as a level 1 dip because you can already do it! Take 1 level of fighter, free weapon finesse with full BAB progression and fort bonus.
I think the issue is, that right now the Swashbuckler can't be a pirate, without a) being a rapier pirate or b), dumping a lot of feats and reskinning a scimitar into a cutlass or sabre.
Amusing thought of the morning...
While I disagree with how Precise Strike is, as in the duelist, restricted to only working when not attacking with a weapon in the off hand or using a shield. I just realized, here's a class that's perfect for the Tankard of the Cheerful Duelist. :-)
More seriously, I'd say just keep the weapon out of the off hand. If they want to swash their buckle, or hold a wand, or potion, or a turkey leg, or the fair maiden's hand (or a tankard) let them. If they use the wand/turkey leg/maiden as a weapon, they lose the bonus.
I was actually looking forward to a Dual wielding Swashbuckler, and the idea of changing the ability so it only works with the weapon in your main hand would be nice. An archetype for this would be good too.
So last night I went and rerolled Orik Vancasterkin in Runelords into a Swashbuckler. I handwaved the piercing weapon restriction and let him keep his bastard sword and gave him a mwk buckler (mainly for loot if he gets killed).
Man, is this class MAD. I haven't rolled a Gunslinger, so I don't know if it has a similar problem. I ended up rearranging his stats 3 times to try and accomplish what I want.
I let him keep Power attack, so his stats are
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 12
Into 8
Wish 12
Cha 14
By tanking his Con, I was able to get the same Attack Bonus with more damage from precise strike. With power attack, he can do +11 with Power attack and precise strike, which is pretty heavy.
I was looking at making him STR based and ignore Dex a little, but his AC would have been terrible with only light armor. Ac ended up dropping 3 points, but two of that was his Heavy Shield.
The biggest problem came with the Panache pool, I ended up making his Cha 14 to just get two points. That means if I use two abilities, I'm out of points for Precise Strike. Crits are going to be really important. And if the max I can ever have is my Cha modifier, it'll be pretty much impossible to use Riposte after a Opportune Parry.
I can just lower his STR to 10 and raise the Cha, but either way, he still has to suffer with pretty low Con for a frontliner.
You know, I have a Str-based, high-Cha Paladin in PFS that's been sitting at level 3 for a while because I got bored with him. Going into Swashbuckler from level 3 on may be just what the doctor ordered to breathe some new life into him.
2 levels of Paladin seriously shores up his Fort and Will saves, while still keeping his BAB at full, and giving a Smite Evil once per day for high AC/DR bad guys. If you're going for a Dex build, you could even take the Divine Hunter archetype to pick up Precise Shot for free, and be a switch-hitter.
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This class is all sorts of awesome....read through it and I am suddenly wanting to create a catfolk Swashbuckler whose nickname is Puss N Boots.... But honestly aside from a few error in wording its seems solid and a real monster once you get the improved critical feat at 5th. That being said having created a few mobile rogues in the past a swashbuckler character dipping into the dodge feat tree and and combat reflexes could be real fun.
This class actually reminds me less of a pirate as some were hoping for and more of The Three Musketeer style of swashbuckler which I dont feel was ever really done right without multiclassing in 3.5
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Request for designers:
Cutlasses have the same stats as scimitars. Please allow them to be Dervish Danced so pirates can join in the fun. Similarly, make this mechanic fit with rapiers somehow.
Please make an archetype which allows for a rapier in one hand and a pistol in the other. It is obviously the coolest way to enter a battle so the archetype had better not suck.
Also, Seashbucklers should be able to hold daggers in their teeth.
And double bonus for the Charming and Extremely Fashoinable traits.
YO LADIES CHECK ME OUT *smashes through plate glass window*
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Coridan's thoughts on the Swashbuckler:
My first response is "weapon finesse at second level is just mean". Every swash is dumping Str. That is the point of the class. Don't make them suffer through first level without finesse.
In general I know I am a minority here but I dislike this concept as a base class. Swashbuckler works pretty well as a fighter/rogue multiclass and I could build a superior swashbuckler with fighter/rogue/duelist. I know that isn't changing any opinions at Paizo though, so just at least give the poor bastards who use this class finesse at first level.
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I haven't read through all 7 pages, but has anyone mentioned the Swashbuckler getting Charisma to damage or attack, similar to the Dashing Swordsman in the Order of the Stick?
I don't know about you, but that would be all sorts of awesome.
Heck I'd love to see their Charisma counting as Int for Combat Expertise ;)
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Request for designers:
Cutlasses have the same stats as scimitars. Please allow them to be Dervish Danced so pirates can join in the fun. Similarly, make this mechanic fit with rapiers somehow.
And scimitars are the favored weapon of Besmara... (because there were no cutlasses in core)
Just use a scimitar and name it Cutlass.
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Request for designers:
Cutlasses have the same stats as scimitars. Please allow them to be Dervish Danced so pirates can join in the fun. Similarly, make this mechanic fit with rapiers somehow.
And scimitars are the favored weapon of Besmara... (because there were no cutlasses in core)
Just use a scimitar and name it Cutlass.
I do already as a houserule.
I also count Cavalry Sabres as the same thing. This allows me to justify my Magus with his Phantom Steed and Mount spells as a magical Hussar.
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I'd like to see the Swashbuckler be able to use a Buckler without sacrificing Precise strike. Since the the buckler is written to be strapped onto your arm, It seems like it would function more as a light armor than a shield you have to hold. Especially since you cannot shield bash with it. SO you still have a free hand to swing from a chandelier and do other swashbuckler stuff.
So, if you aren't wearing any armor, but have a Buckler (+1 AC) which equals Padded Armor, you loose the Precise Strike deed. But if i give my guy Padded armor, he can use this Deed? Padded armor weighs 10 pounds, whereas the buckler is 5.
I do historic fencing as a hobby, and having a dagger or buckler in your off-hand while thrusting does not inhibit my ability at all.
After reading through this class, I am thoroughly satisfied. It was my second most wanted class, after Alchemist, since I've started playing Pathfinder, and I think it was done well. I'm not as impressed as I was with the Alchemist, but that class is more than I possibly could have hoped for, so it seems unfair to the Swashbuckler to hold it to such high standards. I love the parry and riposte abilities being available at level 1, even with the panache costs.
I am also a big fan of the swift feint ability. It seems very useful for helping a fellow rogue set up. Also seems like it would help a monk hit with more of his flurry attacks, which is good. I am a little confused about the wording though. Do you have to hit, or do you just have to be able to hit i.e. next to someone who isn't under the effects of Sanctuary, or any similar effect?
Is 7 pages of requests to expand the weapon options not enough? I'm genuinely surprised.
So aside from opening up one-handed slashing weapons (Seriously devs! Morning Star, Heavy Pick, and Trident are all cool, but Cutlass and Longsword aren't? You CAN'T make that make sense,) there's a few other "bugs" that I think need fixing, and really I'm just repeating what's already been said:
•Needs another high save. I think Fort makes more sense than Will personally. (Both parent classes have a high Fort, but the child class doesn't? No bueno.)
•Swashbuckler Finesse needs to count as Weapon Finesse for prereqs.
•Deeds need to be cleaned up pretty badly. Some examples are:
-Opportune Parry should happen after the attack roll, not before it. It can be a pretty awkward ability otherwise.
-Precise Strike needs to get the "Pathfinder precision damage upgrade" and we all know it. It also needs to work with only specific things in the offhand: Dagger, Buckler, and for the future archetype, pistols. (That said, I don't think it should activate from attacks from an offhand weapon - keep the damage main-hand.)
-Pommel Swipe is weird when used with weapons that do a base damage less than d6 med/d4 small. I don't have a good idea of how to fix that.
-Swift Feint needs to drop the "Standard Action" requirement. It should replace an attack, regardless of how you make that attack (ie: can replace an attack from a full-attack action). Also, nothing else in the class gives you a reason to care if your target is denied it's Dex bonus, which makes this ability a very clunky fit (even if Sneak Attack classes love you, but why aren't they just flanking anyway?)
-Why does "Deeds" show up in table 1-12 at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19 if you gain access to all of them as you level? Just an editing error I assume?
•I'll be the odd-ball out and say I actually like Bravery for this class. If there is one thing the swashbuckler trope is famous for, it's bravado.
And that's all I've got. Fix those things and I love it! ;)
1) I agree that the Swashbuckler should be able to use a Buckler along with other class abilities (I don't even have a problem with TWF).
2) I don't think that you should be forced into a Weapon Finesse situation. Drop Swashbuckler Finesse at 2nd and just give them a bonus feat at 1st. Perhaps from a short list like this: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus.
3) I dislike the "Light or one-handed piercing weapon" restrictions for a class based on using swords. I can use a light spear or a pick and still be fine, even though it completely goes against the spirit of the class, but I can't use a cutlass?
My suggestion is to re-work it along the following lines: "Any light or one-handed sword-like weapon". Perhaps include, "from the Heavy or Light Blades Weapon Groups" (with book and page numbers from the CRB and UE).
Currently, you can have a Swashbuckler with a trident, but not a longsword.
Just my 2cp worth.
Also, this class allows me to effectively make Aquaman, since tridents are one-handed piercing weapons, so that's pretty awesome.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What about this wording for a deed:
Threatening Stance: As long as the swashbuckler has one panache, treat any weapons on the swashbuckler list (or just light/ one-handed piercing or slashing) as having a critical threat range of 19-20. If the swashbuckler spends one panache, the range increases to 18-20 for one round. This effect stacks with keen.
From a RAW ruling, you reduce the rapier's crit to 19-20 with this deed. :-)
The aldori sword would benefit from the feat investment in aldori dueling style. So you're trading a slower panache replenishment for a longer term goal.
The pick/falcata/other would be more difficult. I'd say you regain a number of panache equal to the crit multiplier -1. So a Rolondo swashbuckler would use the falcata and not crit as often as the rapier wielder, but would get two panache back when they do. Likewise Gnomeo Tybalt, pick wielder extrordinare, would get back three when he hits. No immediate perk for longsword weilders, and like I said the aldori duelist pays for the reduced recovery with other bonuses from the style.
Swashbuckler does NOT have to be a pirate. A swashbuckler CAN be a pirate. many people will play a charismatic and agile fighter and not want him to be seen as criminal.
Many games don't have firearms, so it is best left as an archetype. I've seen and read of swashbucklers that did not use guns at all.
Free weapon finesse is not game breaking as a level 1 dip because you can already do it! Take 1 level of fighter, free weapon finesse with full BAB progression and fort bonus.
I think the issue is, that right now the Swashbuckler can't be a pirate, without a) being a rapier pirate or b), dumping a lot of feats and reskinning a scimitar into a cutlass or sabre.
Because all pirates must use rapier, scimitar, or cutlass? That's a false assumption, and people will enjoy the previously mentioned dwarf pick wielding swashbuckler or other very creative ways to play the class. Not saying the list shouldn't be changed or expanded but to automatically discount anything other than the most optimal option is not how any role playing game should be built and judged. Open your mind and create something new and memorable.
edit: The weapon choice does not make someone a pirate. Any class and race can be a pirate as shown in skulls and shackles. Pirate is a way of life/attitude/career. I already have a player creating a swashbuckler pirate for skulls and shackles, guess i'll have to tell him he can't anymore according to your logic.....
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Also, this class allows me to effectively make Aquaman, since tridents are one-handed piercing weapons, so that's pretty awesome.
Hey, Merfolk get +2 to all the right stats for this. Hmm...
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A different thread made me realize how to build a fairly effective swashbuckler.
Take a level of lore oracle with the sidestep secret. You can now pretty much dump Dex and go str based. Mix with paladin to taste.
It seems pretty wrong that the best swashbucklers I've seen so far either dip a level of Dawnflower dervish or oracle. Swashbucklers need a way to add dex to damage. Preferably quite early.
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1) I agree that the Swashbuckler should be able to use a Buckler along with other class abilities (I don't even have a problem with TWF).
2) I don't think that you should be forced into a Weapon Finesse situation. Drop Swashbuckler Finesse at 2nd and just give them a bonus feat at 1st. Perhaps from a short list like this: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus.
3) I dislike the "Light or one-handed piercing weapon" restrictions for a class based on using swords. I can use a light spear or a pick and still be fine, even though it completely goes against the spirit of the class, but I can't use a cutlass?
My suggestion is to re-work it along the following lines: "Any light or one-handed sword-like weapon". Perhaps include, "from the Heavy or Light Blades Weapon Groups" (with book and page numbers from the CRB and UE).
Currently, you can have a Swashbuckler with a trident, but not a longsword.
Just my 2cp worth.
Using a pick, spear, trident, etc. is not against the spirit of the class. You need to imagine what a swashbuckler of EVERY society in golorian would look like. A dwarf might use a pick, a water race might use a trident, or some uncivilized society could have a short spear wielding swashbuckler. A swashbuckler is not a sword only class except in the mind of SOME players. The rest of us the OPTION to not be tied down into a sword. It lets us flex our creative muscles and come up with something new and fun. (fun does not always equal optimal)
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I've noticed that a lot of people have mentioned desiring more movement related abilities and I agree. Having something that lets me use my acrobatics skill to move around the battle above simply avoiding AoO's. There's just something about swinging from a rope or chandelier, or a sword fight on the railing of a crumbling balcony, that gets me every time.
Something else I was thinking about is the Gunslinger's Daring Deed optional rule. What if the Swashbuckler had something similar like if they did something especially cinematic they were restored a point of panache.
Moving on, I agree that the parry and riposte are too costly on panache. Changing parry to only require that you have a point of panache in your pool keeps the ability viable while still costing you the AoO. Also, like Neo2151 said, it should happen after the opponents attack roll.
I don't have more than a hobbyist's experience making rules, so I'm afraid that I don't have much to offer as far as potential mechanics goes, but I know you're all working hard on that, and thank you for a class that is, for the most part, super awesome.
I cant wait to make a dwarf swashbuckler that uses pick, hammer, or axe along with unexpected displays of agility and wit to make all the dwarf maidens swoon as he flaunts his skill across the battle field.
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Would it be OP to add the following to "Menacing Swordplay"?
"If the target of an Intimidate check enabled by Menacing Swordplay is already shaken, a Swashbuckler who possesses the Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, or Improved Trip feats may instead attempt the combat maneuver for which he or she has that feat as a Swift Action."
Not perfect, but it might work to emulate the Swashbuckler trope of fighting with tricks and using the environment against the opponent. Maybe a sidebar explaining that Swashbucklers who can work use of the environment into their combat maneuvers (dropping chandeliers on people, pulling the rug out from under their feet, etc) should at the GM's discretion have a circumstance or morale bonus on the CMB roll?
Alternately, might succeeding on a combat maneuver against an opponent be a source of Panache? Maybe only Swashbuckler appropriate maneuvers count, such as reposition, dirty trick, disarm, etc?
Example:
"Shame your foe: A Swashbuckler who succeeds on a disarm, reposition, dirty trick, or trip combat maneuver check against an opponent with 3 or greater Intelligence regains a point of Panache as that opponent is embarrassed at how deftly the Swashbuckler has one-upped them".
Another idea, just brainstorming
"Impressive Display: A Swashbuckler fighting in the presence of at least one NPC who has a 'Very Friendly' attitude toward the Swashbuckler may, as an immediate action once per combat, regain a point of Panache."
That would cover the sorts of "morale boosts" literary and movie Swashbucklers get when they're trying to defend or impress lovers, potential lovers, patrons, younger siblings, old friends from finishing school, crewmates, etc
Using a pick, spear, trident, etc. is not against the spirit of the class. You need to imagine what a swashbuckler of EVERY society in golorian would look like. A dwarf might use a pick, a water race might use a trident, or some uncivilized society could have a short spear wielding swashbuckler. A swashbuckler is not a sword only class except in the mind of SOME players. The rest of us the OPTION to not be tied down into a sword. It lets us flex our creative muscles and come up with something new and fun. (fun does not always equal optimal)
Fair point. In which case, I don't see why the Swashbuckler should be limited to Piercing weapons.
Perhaps "any Light or One-handed Piercing or Slashing weapon."
Alas, that probably won't happen. :P
I'm still a firm believer that the class shouldn't be forced into a Dex build if the players don't want to.
Using a pick, spear, trident, etc. is not against the spirit of the class. You need to imagine what a swashbuckler of EVERY society in golorian would look like. A dwarf might use a pick, a water race might use a trident, or some uncivilized society could have a short spear wielding swashbuckler. A swashbuckler is not a sword only class except in the mind of SOME players. The rest of us the OPTION to not be tied down into a sword. It lets us flex our creative muscles and come up with something new and fun. (fun does not always equal optimal)Fair point. In which case, I don't see why the Swashbuckler should be limited to Piercing weapons.
Perhaps "any Light or One-handed Piercing or Slashing weapon."
Alas, that probably won't happen. :P
I'm still a firm believer that the class shouldn't be forced into a Dex build if the players don't want to.
Should a sorcerer or wizard not be forced into a charisma or intelligence build? I think the forced dex isn't so horrible considering the overall theme of the class. a fighter is forced into STR to be optimal (I think?) This is that agile fighting class, so it doesn't really seem out of place IMHO.
I do like the idea of "Any light or one handed piercing or slashing weapon" thus allowing more freedom to make a more diverse swashbuckling population.
Also, this class allows me to effectively make Aquaman, since tridents are one-handed piercing weapons, so that's pretty awesome.Hey, Merfolk get +2 to all the right stats for this. Hmm...
Now we just need an easy way for him to control the water. Hydraulic Push would work, and Eldritch heritage could give him an aquatic animal companion. I guess I have some building to do now.
Should a sorcerer or wizard not be forced into a charisma or intelligence build? I think the forced dex isn't so horrible considering the overall theme of the class. a fighter is forced into STR to be optimal (I think?) This is that agile fighting class, so it doesn't really seem out of place IMHO.I do like the idea of "Any light or one handed piercing or slashing weapon" thus allowing more freedom to make a more diverse swashbuckling population.
I'm glad you like it!
I guess I'm fine w/ all Swashbucklers being Finesse-based. But you should get that at 1st then!
Concerning the limitation of Precise Strike on two-weapon swashbucklers, I agree that this is a problem.
I believe, historically, the use of an off-hand dagger or "main gauche", was a fighting style used mainly by people who could easily be modeled in-game with the Swashbuckler (fencers and other lightly-armored duelist types).
I think this historically-accurate archetype should be supported
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I haven't read through all 7 pages, but has anyone mentioned the Swashbuckler getting Charisma to damage or attack, similar to the Dashing Swordsman in the Order of the Stick?
I don't know about you, but that would be all sorts of awesome. Swashbucklers don't have to be smart, they have to be charismatic.
Heck I'd love to see their Charisma counting as Int for Combat Expertise ;)
I think the intelligence focus is carried over from the duelist prestige class. I agree it should be charisma if anything. And just as monks get a pass on prequisites for some feats, I think swashbucklers should get a pass on the Combat Expertise tree of feats when it comes to the intelligence requirement.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Should a sorcerer or wizard not be forced into a charisma or intelligence build? I think the forced dex isn't so horrible considering the overall theme of the class. a fighter is forced into STR to be optimal (I think?) This is that agile fighting class, so it doesn't really seem out of place IMHO.
I do like the idea of "Any light or one handed piercing or slashing weapon" thus allowing more freedom to make a more diverse swashbuckling population.
A Swashbuckler is a Dex only class except in the minds of SOME players. The rest of us the OPTION to not be tied down into a single stat. It lets us flex our creative muscles and come up with something new and fun. (fun does not always equal optimal)
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This doesn't seem to be listed anywhere:
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a
swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage
rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons.
While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of
the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage
bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th
level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).
I'm unsure how we cap at +5 at level 20.
Level 5: +1Level 9: +2
Level 13: +3
Level 17: +4
Level 21: +5
20 is not part of the set [5+4x], or however that should be notated. It needs to either scale differently or cap at level 17 with a +4.
Later, Debbie faces some skeletons. She's kinda up the creek. If she stabs, she has a 3.75% chance of a crit, which will do 2d6-7 damage. She can't even borrow a club unless she emptied all those darts out of her pockets first. Her best bet is to go total defense and let the rest of the party have at it.
What would you think about a panache ability along the lines of...
Contempt for Foe. As a standard action, a swashbuckler can ready a one handed piercing weapon with its sheathe (or other storage means) firmly in place. As long as the swashbuckler has at least one panache point, then can wield the weapon as normal (and are considered proficient with it) except that the critical damage range is reduced by one (so 18-20 becomes 19-20) and cannot be reduced below 20. The swashbuckler wielding their weapon in this way deals bludgeoning damage and may deal lethal or non-lethal damage at their discretion.
Something like that?
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1) I like the idea of having Swashbuckler have Charisma as their main mental stat. Swashbucklers who really want the Int option already have Duelist (I'd be very interested to see how a Swashbuckler entry into Duelist works out). And in the ACG we already have the Slayer, the Int-focused melee class.
I'm not sure where the Int focus of the Slayer is coming from. I haven't seen a class ability that makes the Slayer's combat math depend as heavily on Int as the Swashbuckler does on Cha.
IME, the main option for an Int-based melee warrior is Magus, which, barring Dervish Dance shenanigans or waiting until you can buy an Agile weapon, is more of a "Str > Int > all else" class. An argument could be made for Dex being necessary for a well-rounded Magus that doesn't have a depressingly bad AC, but unless you have some CharOp/Theorycrafter experience, the Magus is not going to jump out as the class to play in order to finally play all of one's 7th Sea character ideas in PF.
The Swashbuckler looks like it's poised to be *the* go-to, ready-out-of-the-box Dex based melee fighter, but it wouldn't hurt to give the Swashbuckler the option of being "Dex > Int > else" rather than "Dex > Cha > else", especially since the Gunslinger got an archetype to move the Grit ability score from Wis to Cha.
I'd like to thank everyone who took part in my math thread, especially those who challenged me to refine it, as having all sides of the investigation is the best way to make science together. This includes (but is not limited to) Eric Clingenpeel, Shisumo, Throne, Kolokotroni, and TarkXT. I think our discussion would clog up this thread if it continued at pace, while being almost impossible to read with the other conversations interspersed, so I'd ask that you PM me with any more ideas and thoughts. I love hearing both sides to help me refine my method. If I ever get a playtest done (I may do a playtest with nondeterministic Fred and Sally occupying the same Schrodinger's character and see the differences or something like that), I will start our discussion again in that playtest.
Cheers!
RE
Another thing that could use clarification: Targeted strike (torso/wings) doesn't specify if it does damage or not (even though all the other options mention if they do damage or not), and totally doesn't mention wings at all.
OK, I'm going to break my own thing to give my other friends from that thread a snapshot of Sally at level 10. Fred linked by Kolokotroni from the DPR Olympics is the basis for this (I think we can all agree that a DPR Olympics build will not be a "mediocre" build). I was actually shocked that Sally was only 3 AC behind Fred.
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +7 Will: +8 (+10 against fear, 1/day reroll)
AC: 25 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 22 (+10 +1 full plate, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Dodge)
Attacks: Falchion +23/+18, 2d4+16 dmg (15-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (heavy blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Armor Training 2
BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 28
Feats:
Weapon Focus (falchion)
Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (falchion)
Critical Focus
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (falchion)
Dodge
Lunge
Step Up
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
+3 falchion
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
1000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +7 Ref: +11 Will: +8 (+10 against fear)
AC: 22 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 17 (+5 +1 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +3 Dodge)
Attacks: Rapier +23/+18, 1d6+13+10 precision dmg (15-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Swash abilities (there's a lot)
BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 30
Feats:
Weapon Focus (rapier)
Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (rapier) (from Precise Strike)
Critical Focus
Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (rapier)
Dodge
Extra Panache* (speculative but seems certain)
Skills:
Some more stuff than Fred
Gear:
+3 rapier
Belt of +4 str
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 7 (-2)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 14 (+2)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +6 Ref: +11 Will: +8 (+10 against fear)
AC: 22 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 17 (+5 +1 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +3 Dodge)
Attacks: Rapier +23/+18, 1d6+13+10 precision dmg (15-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Swash abilities (there's a lot)
BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 30
Feats:
Weapon Focus (rapier)
Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (rapier) (from Precise Strike)
Critical Focus
Toughness
Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (rapier)
Dodge
Skills:
Equal to Fred
Gear:
+3 rapier
Belt of +4 str
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
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Interesting. Running Fred and Sally through the DPR calculator, against the "typical" AC 24 of a CR 10 opponent, their DPR is... almost identical. 56.91 for Sally and 56.55 for Fred (assuming both are Power Attacking, and they should be). And the price for maintaining that parity is substantial losses of both AC and saves for Sally vs Fred. Adding in the expected DPR increase for "burning off" the extra panache from a confirmed crit increases Sally's DPR by 3.891 - sizable, but certainly not game-breaking, and you're paying for it with -3 AC, -4 Fort and no Will save reroll. I'm not sure there's actually a problem here.