Why spend a Feat on a Wakizashi when it is essentially identical in stats to a Rapier, one wonders?
More on topic, that does seem a bit silly. To-hit isn't all that difficult to pump for a Full BaB class (especially one with Weapon Training), and even the POSSIBILITY of deflecting every melee attack in a round, every round (even if only after 11th level) does seem a bit too powerful. Generally the reason I don't consider Crane Style overpowered is because it only works on one attack, even though others cry OP on it. One shudders to think what the reaction would be to the Signature Opportune Parry combo.
Might could do with a once per round limitation, yep. I wouldn't mind seeing it be free (Panache wise) though, at least at higher levels. It's just not worth it all that often since the Panache pool is likely to be so low.
Hindsight... but the Magus probably should have cast True Strike. It would take a Nat 20 for the Swashbuckler to block that hit. Unfortunately, the Magus is unlikely to have enough True Strikes to kill the Swashbuckler.
But it is worth noting that a Duel is where the Swashbuckler should be King.
[Edit] Please tell me the Swashbuckler slapped the Magus with his glove before dueling him. If he didn't you missed a real opportunity there.
Why spend a Feat on a Wakizashi when it is essentially identical in stats to a Rapier, one wonders?
More on topic, that does seem a bit silly. To-hit isn't all that difficult to pump for a Full BaB class (especially one with Weapon Training), and even the POSSIBILITY of deflecting every melee attack in a round, every round (even if only after 11th level) does seem a bit too powerful. Generally the reason I don't consider Crane Style overpowered is because it only works on one attack, even though others cry OP on it. One shudders to think what the reaction would be to the Signature Opportune Parry combo.
It's not OP, but it's a damn sight better than Opportune Parry/Riposte, and it's so good (so much better than most other weaksauce combat feats) that nearly every Swashbuckler is going to pay the Improved Unarmed Strike feat tax (or dip Monk) to pick it up.
Little doubt that there will be. Via archetypes. Focus on description and as written to build a character that fits what they seek to build. It's close...just not quite there.
With this and many things, I'm content to wait for WoG to really dig into any changes at the moment.
WoG?
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Having seen it in action, after level 11, a swashbuckler can shut down any other melee class.
Signature Deed (Opportune Parry). End of fight.
I agree. Signature Deed on Opportune Parry is very good, in fact so good, I can't see why you would put it on anything else. If you use Recovery against a creature without reach, it is very strong also, allowing you to prevent full attacks.
As a result you want to have as many attacks of opportunity available as possible, and this is one area where the dexterity build is clearly superior to a strength build. A dexterity build will be able to parry many more attacks, and get more riposte attacks. The extra attacks will result in a large increase in DPR vs a strength build, at least until you run out of panache for the riposte...
I did a playtest battle between a level 12 Swashbuckler vs level 12 Amiri & Valeros, and found the Swashbuckler alone could beat their combined forces with a combination of Signature Deed (Opportune Parry) and Recovery Deed. If the Swashbuckler has the crane style feats, I am sure they would be almost untouchable.
I also found that the loss of accuracy caused by power attack was undesirable for both the attacker and the swashbuckler. This leads me to the conclusion that you could go without Power Attack as a swashbuckler. However, you would be quite useless against monsters immune to precision damage without the extra damage from Power Attack.
Opportune Parry + Signature Deed is also excellent against touch attacks.
However, it doesn't make up for their weak saves!
Remember that if the person playing this class is to take the place of a fighter, he has to carry his own stuff. That's not going to be very much stuff if he dumps strength below 10. Sure, with DEX instead of STR to damage, a Swashbuckler can theoretically dump all the way down to 7, but then he has to worry about encumbrance. He won't be carrying any of his own gear other than one weapon, a suit of light armour and possibly a buckler. Not too bad if he's the fifth member of a party, but if it's a four man band?
It's worse than that actually. 2 lbs. for the rapier, 5 for the buckler. That makes your total with a chain shirt a 32 (min 10 str), studded leather 27 (min 9 str), 22 for regular leather (7 str). If you REALLY dump it by putting a racial penalty on there, you can get it down to a 6 (just covering padded) or 5 (lose the padded or the buckler).
These of course all assume these are the only three possessions you own. Adding just a suit of clothing under all that knocks you up at least one more point. Dullard here is at the absolute limit of 14 str, carrying what I think we can agree are the bare essentials for a campaign where you're ever going to make camp outside of a town.
The issue here isn't about dumping strength. You still need quite a bit without some real tricky finagling, without even getting to feats and CMD. The issue is giving this giving dexterity enough to actually do for this class to be worth pushing as a primary stat, and providing any sort of option to at least try and get by without a minimum of 13 or 14 in literally every stat so there's some stat points free on a 15 point build to either get Dex up to even a 16 or so, or otherwise just have some kind of wiggle room.
The bigger problem though is the saves. Trying to shore them up is just brutal on everything.
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Regarding the Swashbuckler vs Magus (or Amiri&Valeros).
For a Magus, keep in mind that class does not have a full BAB, nor will it likely be fully optimized for melee with maxed out attack stat. Also, it sounds like that Magus was not being played well. One or two parries and that Magus should have changed tactics - invisibility, fly, stoneskin, or any spell requiring a will save.
Againswt Amiri & Valeros an optimized Swashbuckler should stomp them - the Iconics aren't really built to be killers. Amiri uses an oversized weapon and likely power attack, which drops her bonuses, plus I don't think she has weapon focus, even with rage she's probably 5-6 points behind. Valeros isn't that strong and loses -2 with two-weapon fighting, so he's probably about 5-6 points behind on an attack as well. So at the same level an optimized Swashbuckler probably only has to roll a 4-5 or higher to parry. I don't think this will be the case with a monster of an equal CR.
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Parry is not OP.
Here is the thing you are a level 12 swashbuckler, so your attack bonus, could be something like +28 (12 bab, 7 dex, 2 training, 3 weapon, 2 focus feats, and 2 for gloves of dueling which is not RAW atm but I keep using them because it SHOULD be RAW). You aren't power attacking, but you parry everything.
You also have an AC of 35 (10, +7 (+3 mithral chain shirt), +3 nimble, +7 dex, +2 ring, +2 amulet, +4 buckler)
So, good defenses to begin with.
Lets say you are getting attacked by something with a +22 to hit (not unreasonable for CR 12)
So, chance that it will hit your AC: 40%
If it hits, it will have done so with an attack roll between 35 and 42.
So the average attack roll that hits you in this case is a 38.5
You need to hit attack roll +1 (since you need to beat it)
So your average Parry DC is 39
You have a +28 to hit
Chances of a successful parry: 50%
So this reduces the attacker's hit chance to 20%
Parry, in this example is about equal to +4 AC.
Defensive goodness? Sure is. Overpowered? Not really.
If you told someone up front that this was just +4 to AC for a panache point and an AoO, they would probably question it more, but it hides behind the allure of the D20. In the playtest I partook in, the swashbuckler attempted over 10 parries, and not one made a difference (and he was spending panache to do it).
Generally, the monster would have missed anyway, or its attack roll was high enough to make the check very difficult.
What IS very good is riposte, because extra attacks are always good... but we already have evidence that this is going to turn into an immediate action. Still good but not game breaking.
And here is the REAL rub. Parry is BETTER for strength swashbucklers.
Take my swashbarian. His attack bonus is +27 (12 bab, 9 str, 2 training, 4 weapon, 2 focus feats, and 2 for gloves of dueling, -4 power attack)
The swashbarian still has a 14 dex, so 3 AoOs with Reflexes, and can also take the Quick Reflexes rage power as a feat for +1 more. Either way, it is more common to see less than 4 attacks than it is to see more.
His AC while raging OTOH is only a 29.
So, same monster with a +22 to hit
Chance to hit: 70%
So hit rolls between 29 and 42. Avg hit roll: 35.5
So average Parry DC of 36
Chance of successful parry: 60%
Monster's new hit chance: 42%
So the strength swashbuckler is getting a better effect. This is about equal to +6 AC for the swashbarian.
Why? Because parrying an attack that already missed doesn't actually help you. If your AC is a 55, then parry is dang near pointless. If your AC is low but your attack bonus is high, then parry has a much greater effect.
So... the dex swash can parry more, but the strength swash gets more out of it. In this case that would be about 50% more, meaning that the dex swash would have to be attacked at least 7 times in one round to have avoided more hits using parry than than swashbarian.
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Why? Because parrying an attack that already missed doesn't actually help you.
It does help you if it allows to take a riposte - that's an extra attack. If you have a high dexterity, you can make multiple ripostes, but only if your panache doesn't run out. Your dexterity build could make 4 ripostes, whereas your strength build could make only 2.
This is really the only thing the dexterity build has going for it.
The dexterity build does have the problem that it requires more panache than the strength build though.
If riposte is made into an immediate action, then it will be another nail in the coffin for the dexterity build.
Why? Because parrying an attack that already missed doesn't actually help you.It does help you if it allows to take a riposte - that's an extra attack.
Yes.
I was speaking to the defensive bonuses granted by Parry.Riposte is excellent, and about a dozen pages ago I said as much, but since it is going to change to an immediate action, both characters, in this case, will get their attack, and a swashbuckler that doesn't bother will still get their attack using pommel swipe.
So, every swashbuckler will get a 1 panache swift/immediate action attack once per round with or without parry at full BAB... the riposte might kill an enemy to stop its attack, the pommel swipe gives a free trip attempt.
So... either way its pretty equal.
That leaves parry as a purely defensive ability, so that is what I was looking at. I thought it might be valuable to the ongoing discussion to point out that more AoOs are not the only factor here, and that a lower AC str build actually gets "more" out of parry than a high dex build unless the high dex build is getting attacked with 6-7 melee attacks per round.
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So, every swashbuckler will get a 1 panache swift/immediate action attack once per round with or without parry at full BAB... the riposte might kill an enemy to stop its attack, the pommel swipe gives a free trip attempt.
So... either way its pretty equal.
That leaves parry as a purely defensive ability, so that is what I was looking at. I thought it might be valuable to the ongoing discussion to point out that more AoOs are not the only factor here, and that a lower AC str build actually gets "more" out of parry than a high dex build unless the high dex build is getting attacked with 6-7 melee attacks per round.
Yes, the only way a dexterity build gets more for parry & riposte is if the dexterity swashbuckler can make more ripostes than a strength swashbuckler.
If riposte becomes an immediate action, then this advantage of the dexterity swashbuckler disappears.
So, every swashbuckler will get a 1 panache swift/immediate action attack once per round with or without parry at full BAB... the riposte might kill an enemy to stop its attack, the pommel swipe gives a free trip attempt.
So... either way its pretty equal.
That leaves parry as a purely defensive ability, so that is what I was looking at. I thought it might be valuable to the ongoing discussion to point out that more AoOs are not the only factor here, and that a lower AC str build actually gets "more" out of parry than a high dex build unless the high dex build is getting attacked with 6-7 melee attacks per round.
Yes, the only way a dexterity build gets more for parry & riposte is if the dexterity swashbuckler can make more ripostes than a strength swashbuckler.
If riposte becomes an immediate action, then this advantage of the dexterity swashbuckler disappears.
Which, for me, is a problem.
I understand why they want to limit riposte (sort of...) its very good. The other side of it is that it probably won't cost panache to use.
I think that if they changed riposte to just an AoO with no panache cost it lands on the side of too good, but just limiting it to once per round makes it... well it makes it kinda sad, and ensures that Pommel Swipe can easily replace it.
I really think that some dexterity incentive is important.
I mean, I could give all swashbucklers the ability to add Int to hit instead of strength in addition to their finesse... but that doesn't suddenly make them an Int based class.
As it stands, I just don't see the connection between "Agile and canny combatant" and the current mechanics. Just because you can make a dexterity based swashbuckler doesn't mean that you should. The incentives are very low, and the impending change to Riposte will scratch another one off the list.
I want the mechanics to fit the fluff. So the swashbuckler needs more (or better) reasons to prioritize dexterity and charisma. Dex to damage is the easy fix, but certainly not the only one (and that might be too powerful anyway)
In any case, Swashbarian needs to die before it gets printed.
I had a playtest this weekend, and the PC Magus ended up in a duel with a swashbuckler. Swashbuckler just shut down every attack he made with Opportune Parry, and used her panache to deal bleed (HP and Str), and to double precise strike damage once per round.
Magus isn't a full-bab class. And if it uses spell combat, it takes attack penalties. Normally this isn't a big problem, but in this case it is.
Remember that if the person playing this class is to take the place of a fighter, he has to carry his own stuff. That's not going to be very much stuff if he dumps strength below 10. Sure, with DEX instead of STR to damage, a Swashbuckler can theoretically dump all the way down to 7, but then he has to worry about encumbrance. He won't be carrying any of his own gear other than one weapon, a suit of light armour and possibly a buckler. Not too bad if he's the fifth member of a party, but if it's a four man band?
Only combat gear really counts. You can carry your camping gear in a sack you drop when in combat. Or you have have a pack mule, or a number of other solutions. Sure, if you have to run you end up without your sleeping bag, but in most cases this is a viable tactic.
I once played a cleric with 6 Str, and was surprised to find I could use fullplate. The penalties of heavy armor and heavy encumbrance don't stack, so it wasn't a big issue (this was in 3E).
I don't think Dex-to-Damage is too powerful, but Dex-to-Damage + Precise Strike might be. Remove the latter and add the former and everything would be fine and much simpler (critical hits would work normally, instead of the extra math necessary with Precise Strike). It also would stop every Dex-based Swashbuckler from having to take 1 pointless feat (Weapon Finesse) to get yet another feat (Dervish Dance) to make the class look like what it should be.
The designers seem to be concerned about this class out damaging Fighters, which shouldn't happen, since DPR is all that Fighters have. However, since they chose to make Fighter one of the parent classes for Swashbucklers, half of what the class gets is some sort of bonus to attack and damage roll (since that's basically all Fighters get).
So instead of giving Swashbucklers Weapon Training and access to Fighter-only feats, making a mix between Fighters' Weapon Training and Gunslingers' Gun Training would be simpler, more flavorful, better balanced and make more sense, given the whole "hybrid" thing.
And of course, we have saves... Swashbucklers' saves are horrible!
This simply can't be overstated. Having Reflex as their only good save is a crippling weakness at any game that goes beyond 6~7th level, and a death sentence at levels 11+. Especially for a class so MAD, it simply can't afford to raise Wisdom. Bravery does not help. At all.
Parry and Riposte can work, but it costs too much Panache and can be abused if it's free.
- This ability should either cost Panache or be usable only once per round, but adding both limitations to the ability makes it pretty much worthless.
- This ability shouldn't be a gamble. Panache is precious and very scarce, so using it to block attacks that wouldn't have hit anyway is a terrible deal. Allow it to use after the attack roll is made.
- The -4 penalty per size category means Parry lose much of its steam at levels 6+, where many creatures are Large or bigger. I honestly don't see the point of this disadvantage.
The wakizashi is a true light weapon and can be used for piranha strike. The rapier cannot.
Why spend a Feat on a Wakizashi when it is essentially identical in stats to a Rapier, one wonders?
Actually, the PCs are in an eastern themed land, so the Wakizashi was 'native' and therefore not exotic for the Swashbuckler, the Rapier would have been.
Mechanically, it makes no difference of course. More flavor.
Regarding the Swashbuckler vs Magus (or Amiri&Valeros).
For a Magus, keep in mind that class does not have a full BAB, nor will it likely be fully optimized for melee with maxed out attack stat. Also, it sounds like that Magus was not being played well. One or two parries and that Magus should have changed tactics - invisibility, fly, stoneskin, or any spell requiring a will save.
Againswt Amiri & Valeros an optimized Swashbuckler should stomp them - the Iconics aren't really built to be killers. Amiri uses an oversized weapon and likely power attack, which drops her bonuses, plus I don't think she has weapon focus, even with rage she's probably 5-6 points behind. Valeros isn't that strong and loses -2 with two-weapon fighting, so he's probably about 5-6 points behind on an attack as well. So at the same level an optimized Swashbuckler probably only has to roll a 4-5 or higher to parry. I don't think this will be the case with a monster of an equal CR.
Swashbuckler had Celestial Chain, so flight was no help.
They are in an invisibility high zone, and everyone and their mother has counters to invisibility (level 11, remember, major bad guys in the area are Ogre mages). PCs have about given up on INvisibility.
Stoneskin would have helped, had he memorized it. He was used to the Sorcerer being the one to cast that, so he didn't memorize it.
Will Save, see Stoneskin entry. Magus had pretty much taken Shield and all damage spells.
So while you can say it was bad planning, it was teamwork planning. The bad planning was to pick the Magus as the guy going into the duel. Or at least since they knew duels could happen, talk out strategy on his spell selection.
I had a playtest this weekend, and the PC Magus ended up in a duel with a swashbuckler. Swashbuckler just shut down every attack he made with Opportune Parry, and used her panache to deal bleed (HP and Str), and to double precise strike damage once per round.Magus isn't a full-bab class. And if it uses spell combat, it takes attack penalties. Normally this isn't a big problem, but in this case it is.
Oh I know, the poor Magus was basically out of his depth. However, he was a half-dragon, so his strength is insane (24), so I feel that counterbalances the 3/4 BAB. I think a human with full bab at 11 would have had the same attack bonus, roughly.
Man, I leave you folks alone for two days and you can't even add 3 pages of posts! I guess Lord_Malkov can't cause enough trouble on his own...
(Unconscious/dead characters always deal exactly 0 DPR.)
Interestingly enough, I have discovered that tenet holds true with the monsters you are fighting as well. Talk to a barbarian about trading damage for AC sometime and they will likely scoff at you. Talk to them about trading AC for damage, and they will point to reckless abandon on their character sheet. Ostog the Unslain doesn't even wear armor, if I recall correctly, and I have played at and run a table with similarly unarmored barbarians. Obviously, it isn't quite the same with a swash, but there is no rule that says barbarians cannot make Dex builds. Strength is simply better for melee.
@mdt
I read your playtest, and while I won't discount it, those stats are a little silly compared to the 15pt buy I've been working with. Anytime you have rolls like that MAD classes start to look impressive. You could have built a monk without archtypes to win that fight with those rolls. Also, if the penultimate swash (alternate FIGHTER) cannot win what appears to have been an entirely melee duel against a 3/4 BAB class, I am a sad panda (keeping my sadness eastern themed).
While I'm on the topic of the playtests, Rogue Eidolon has been drawing up some whacky swashbucklers and putting them into crazy fights. The swash 11/MoMS 1 beating two CR11 black dragons solo seemed really neat on the surface, but the fight scenario took away a lot of dragon tactical options. Also, a great deal of what makes a dragon's CR so high is magical defenses, which a swash need not be concerned about (unless they have a corrosive weapon?). I kind of want to see how that fight goes with two elder elementals (any flavor will do)... even so, just about every one of REs builds have 7 CHA and dip other classes. So while the reports all talk about what the swash(+whatever) can do, the fact that CHA is the dump stat seems like a design failure to me. RE also uses agile weapons, but is quick to point out they wouldn't have been necessary (still takes them every time though, so one wonders).
And that brings me to
All three (four, actually) musketeers should be viable builds underneath the umbrella of the swashbuckler class. DEX and STR should be useable builds, because CHA is what really matters :)Everyone seems to forget that Porthos was a brute, strength swashbuckler should be a viable buildUggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem?Because "obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent".
Edit: Yes, that quote is on a different topic, but I suspect that the same logic would hold true.
Porthos is better represented by other classes precisely because of this. Porthos would make a very good Urban Barbarian/Raging Drunk.
The thing here is that the strong brute fighter is already VERY well covered ground. The swashbuckler class does not need to cover every lightly armored swordsman from the era of early guns. Rob Roy is a good example here... skilled swordsman, no armor, probably best made as a barbarian not a swashbuckler.
Except that Charisma is the dump stat. This is a very bad thing. Hopefully, in later versions Sir Frog will be correct on this point.
As for the swashbuckler class having to represent all 4 musketeers, why? Porthos has been the gold standard for urban barbarian since such a thing existed in 3e. Hell, I think he may have gotten a nod in the AD&D2e Complete Barbarian's Guide, although it's a little fuzzy--I do remember the time my brother and I used that book and rolled up a barb and a priest that could put him in rage instantly, since it used to be TEN rounds of getting angry... that was a fun combo. Man, I'm getting old.
...ahem, I digress. Where was I? Ah yes, Opportune Parry. This ability is not that good in practice (looks pretty awesome on paper though), and ultimately that panache could be much better spent on other options, like killing the enemy with Precise Strike or gaining more attacks with Pommel Swipe (which I don't believe is nearly as good as LM thinks, since the phrasing implies that it is a bludgeoning weapon that you are considered proficient with, and therefore it doesn't get ANY of the class bonuses--I have the question posed in my too-long-and-boring-to-read-playtest thread, and hopefully the Paizo staff will address it when they get back from the Thanksgiving holiday). Still, his math on parry is accurate and I have seen that reflected in play. If your AC is better than 10+your attack bonus, you are really just fishing for Riposte (which is a LOT of fun to do, so I get it).
The dexterity build does have the problem that it requires more panache than the strength build though.
If riposte is made into an immediate action, then it will be another nail in the coffin for the dexterity build.
This guy gets it. I know he has been trying to fight the good fight against Desrvish Dance and Dex-to-damage, but unless Paizo comes up with a better idea (and so far the ideas point the other way), Str builds will be more viable, and this class becomes a fighter with a few tricks.
The person I seem to agree with most as this thread progresses is Lemmy. I think that Precise Strike is the blessing and curse of this class. Even though the damage barely makes up for what you lose by going one-handed melee instead of two-handed or two-weapon (assuming they clarify I don't get to 2h a morningstar), it appears on the surface to be ridiculous. So does Sneak Attack. Anyone who has played a rogue knows otherwise, and, worse, that sometimes you just have to suck it up, not contribute much, and let the martial take care of that fire elemental--except that the martial is a Dex/Cha swash and can't hurt it either... Now, the swashbuckler's AC is ridiculous so he can survive many rounds of fighting elemntals, but the elemental can just ignore his mediocre damage and murder the wizard. The swash traded damage for AC and therefore continues to deal damage, but so does the bad guy. It's like this whole post has come full circle! Back to precise strike, the flashy conditional damage (especially with the doubling, which is basically just a delayed double on crits) means that any additional adds come across as ZOMGWTFBBQINSANITY. Even though at most levels the swash isn't getting much out of it considering the imposed fighting style. Also, strangely enough, through reading many playtests it appears this is the most attractive deed to spend panache on (despite the opinion of many in this thread that damage isn't so important), which--along with the swift action cost--makes other deeds go unused. I know it is too late for a rewrite (unless you are an Arcanist), but I think Precise Strike needs to be looked at VERY seriously. Trading it for Dex-to-damage is a net loss (though better in some situations), but it make the class mechanics match the description much better.
Of course, Charisma is still a dump stat.
What, exactly, is a level 1 Swashbuckler supposed to do? He's not going to take Weapon Finesse, because he's getting it for free next level. He's not going to invest in Strength, because he's getting Weapon finesse next level and this is a class that's obviously supposed to prioritize Dexterity anyway. Beyond Paizo's fear of dip levels (which is completely unfounded in this case, as a two level dip in Fighter beats a one level dip in Swashbuckler any day of the week and twice on Sunday), is there any particular reason the Swashbuckler shouldn't get Finesse at first level?
they've realized this and are probably going to fix it.
and this is a class that's obviously supposed to prioritize Dexterity anyway.
Obviously? I do not think it means what you think it means.
Mechanically speaking, very little pushes a swash to Dex. Light armor proficiency, maybe? The ability to spend panache on parry? A few save DCs on abilities no martial character with a weak Fort save will ever live to see, that aren't that great for the cost?
Clearly you are still in love with the class description (which, I agree, sounds absolutely amazing). The rules, however, do not put a heavy stress on Dex/Cha builds, and I will leave you to sift through this thread for examples.
@mdt
I read your playtest, and while I won't discount it, those stats are a little silly compared to the 15pt buy I've been working with. Anytime you have rolls like that MAD classes start to look impressive. You could have built a monk without archtypes to win that fight with those rolls. Also, if the penultimate swash (alternate FIGHTER) cannot win what appears to have been an entirely melee duel against a 3/4 BAB class, I am a sad panda (keeping my sadness eastern themed).
A) The Magus had better stats.
B) 4d6 drop lowest is the default method in the CRB.Using 4d6 DL is a valid test, as we need to playtest everything, not just 'how gimped can we make the test with 15pt buys which almost nobody uses' tests.
It would be just as invalid to use a 15pt buy in a game where the PCs used 4d6 drop lowest as it would be to use a 25 pt buy in a game where the PCs used 15pt buy.
The point was, even a barbarian (the king of DPR) could be shut down entirely by the swashbuckler with a similar build. Mainly because a Barbarian build usually uses PA, which makes it much easier to parry.
@mdt
I read your playtest, and while I won't discount it, those stats are a little silly compared to the 15pt buy I've been working with. Anytime you have rolls like that MAD classes start to look impressive. You could have built a monk without archtypes to win that fight with those rolls. Also, if the penultimate swash (alternate FIGHTER) cannot win what appears to have been an entirely melee duel against a 3/4 BAB class, I am a sad panda (keeping my sadness eastern themed).
A) The Magus had better stats.
B) 4d6 drop lowest is the default method in the CRB.Using 4d6 DL is a valid test, as we need to playtest everything, not just 'how gimped can we make the test with 15pt buys which almost nobody uses' tests.
It would be just as invalid to use a 15pt buy in a game where the PCs used 4d6 drop lowest as it would be to use a 25 pt buy in a game where the PCs used 15pt buy.
The point was, even a barbarian (the king of DPR) could be shut down entirely by the swashbuckler with a similar build. Mainly because a Barbarian build usually uses PA, which makes it much easier to parry.
Pathfinder uses 15 point buy as it's standard and is balanced around that fact. Once you vary from 15 point buy, you are building characters more powerful than the rules support.
I know PFS uses 20 point buy, but PFS is not the 'standard' for Pathfinder rules.
I offered this suggestion on my playtest report thread, but I'd like to bring it here as well:
What if the Riposte ability came at second level (to reduce the front-loading worries) and had something like this:
The shaman can make an extra attack of opportunity each round. This ability stacks with the number of attacks of opportunity granted by the Combat Reflexes feat.
I feel it's a simple enough fix that wouldn't require the Swashbuckler to buy a feat to use a class ability (although if he wanted to focus on that, he could by buying the Combat Reflexes feat and using the Parry/Riposte combo against multiple opponents) nor it would preclude him from using his other abilities (such as the immediate actin route). What do you guys think?
I'd like to expand on my first post.
- I like Precise Strike. Avoiding the whole "dex-to-damage" was in my opinion a clever choice, and in return you get a nifty bonus to damage. The fact this is precision damage that will not work on a good half of the bestiary is a letdown though. If you don't want the class to become a dip paradise abused by feat combos, I would even go as far as to suggest this bonus does not stack with any ability that allows you to add your Str or Dex bonus to damage, but half of this bonus damage is normal damage which can be multiplied on a crit.
Yes, this means the swashbuckler wouldn't effectively need any Str... which isn't an issue when you consider the wizard doesn't need Charisma or Strength at all either. You would still use Dex to hit, skills and AC.
- As of now the swashbuckler is really feat starved. Let's be honest : you NEED Weapon Finesse at 1st level plus Combat Reflexes just to use your most iconic deed. In that case, we may as well receive them early on or reduce the cost of parrying/counterattacking (maybe in a single AoO ?). I was thinking about rolling a halfling swashbuckler using the ARG feats to focus on fighting defensively... but the build suffers way too much from this starvation to be effective in combat at lower levels, which is a shame for a class whose whole trope and description insists on swashbuckler fighting defensively against bigger brutes.
- Please, PLEASE find some way for swashbucklers in the final version to not get pigeonholed in Dervish Dancing. This feat already ruins all versatility in the magus, since it's not going to die, it may at well not contaminate all swashbucklers ever. See the "don't stack with precise strike" as said previously.
- (I'll have to verify this one when I have access to the pdf at home) The targeting deed is much less potent than a gunslinger's, whose deed already has limited utility. As a full-round action, you must hit normal AC in melee while the gunslinger does that at range against Touch AC.
In...
General request and agreement here. If dex-to-damage does become a thing, please make it scale with the class so that swashbuckler doesn't become a one-dip-wonder.
Also, an adjustment so that Precise Strike would not stack with dervish (but would be effective in other ways) would aid in preventing single-builds/feat tunnelvision. While a flavorfully fun class, the magus runs into this far too often.
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I am of the opinion that a Dex 13 Swashbuckler who boosts Strength through the roof and a Str 14 Swashbuckler who boosts Dex through the roof should both be viable. I'll also note that if you add Dex to damage on top of strenth, you might allow a Str 14 guy to add, oh, +2 damage, but you won't have too many Strength 7 swashbucklers. Problem solved. It also provides true parity between Strength and Dexterity-based swashbucklers.
Continuing to playtest: Swashbuckling Initiative doesn't feel appropriate for the class. The bonus to initiative doesn't seem to help me as I already have a high Dexterity, and I don't have sneak attack or another ability to capitalize on going first. With Quick Draw, it allows me to parry, I guess, but there's nothing that says I can't use Opportune Parry unarmed. We began to brainstorm, and determined that something like this fit better:
Dramatic Entrance:
When you roll initiative, as long as you have at least 1 point of panache, you may as an immediate action elect to roll either a Bluff check (DC=10+Sense Motive score) to seem unassuming, and be ignored by your opponents until your action on the first round, or an Intimidate check to demoralize a single opponent.
@mdt
I read your playtest, and while I won't discount it, those stats are a little silly compared to the 15pt buy I've been working with. Anytime you have rolls like that MAD classes start to look impressive. You could have built a monk without archtypes to win that fight with those rolls. Also, if the penultimate swash (alternate FIGHTER) cannot win what appears to have been an entirely melee duel against a 3/4 BAB class, I am a sad panda (keeping my sadness eastern themed).
A) The Magus had better stats.
B) 4d6 drop lowest is the default method in the CRB.Using 4d6 DL is a valid test, as we need to playtest everything, not just 'how gimped can we make the test with 15pt buys which almost nobody uses' tests.
It would be just as invalid to use a 15pt buy in a game where the PCs used 4d6 drop lowest as it would be to use a 25 pt buy in a game where the PCs used 15pt buy.
The point was, even a barbarian (the king of DPR) could be shut down entirely by the swashbuckler with a similar build. Mainly because a Barbarian build usually uses PA, which makes it much easier to parry.
Pathfinder uses 15 point buy as it's standard and is balanced around that fact. Once you vary from 15 point buy, you are building characters more powerful than the rules support.
I know PFS uses 20 point buy, but PFS is not the 'standard' for Pathfinder rules.
4d6 drop lowest is perfectly viable, but it is not the standard. I was sincere when I said I didn't discount your playtest, but the circumstances were heavily in the swashbuckler's favor. For the people suggesting spells for the Magus, might I throw my hat in the ring and suggest he casted blur and watch the swash cry when he realizes Precise Strike doesn't work. Heck, if it was a human you could just dim the lights. Overpowered.
As for shutting down a barbarian, I can only assume that you haven't optimized a barbarian lately. Keep in mind that they don't have to take penalties for Power Attack if they use reckless abandon, and seriously, why wouldn't you? Also, if I knew I was going to duel a swash, you can bet a potion of blur would be at the top of my shopping list. Even without that, I don't like the swash's chances. Although, now that I think of it, a Combat Reflexes/Opportune Parry swash vs. a come and get me barbarian would be a fun encounter.
Basically, mdt, I pointed out your playtest because you brought it into this discussion, and it had a magus in a straight-up melee duel with apparently little to no magic against a full BAB class. Not the best measuring stick. That you have random stat arrays instead of point buy also muddies the sample, since the control variables of character creation resources and wealth are not the same. Also, the point about MAD characters benefiting more from more generous stat creation rules is very valid.
So I have a hard time concluding that the swashbuckler is some awesome wrecking crew that could shut down anything from your test. Not saying that the swash is bad, but I'm definitely not agreeing with you based upon the post you wrote.
Dramatic Entrance:
When you roll initiative, as long as you have at least 1 point of panache, you may as an immediate action elect to roll either a Bluff check (DC=10+Sense Motive score) to seem unassuming, and be ignored by your opponents until your action on the first round, or an Intimidate check to demoralize a single opponent.
That sounds pretty neat. As the martial character, however, my friends would probably be angry at me if I ever took the unassuming route.
I am of the opinion that a Dex 13 Swashbuckler who boosts Strength through the roof and a Str 14 Swashbuckler who boosts Dex through the roof should both be viable.
Characters well rounded to the point of being Bowling balls do not do well in this system.
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I am of the opinion that a Dex 13 Swashbuckler who boosts Strength through the roof and a Str 14 Swashbuckler who boosts Dex through the roof should both be viable.Characters well rounded to the point of being Bowling balls do not do well in this system.
Having a secondary stat at 13 is considered "too well rounded" now?
I don't think I've ever made a Str based character with less than 14 Dex. Wait I take that back, one of my Barbarians was. But still.
And Str 13 is a very good move for a Dex based character. Lets you qualify for Power Attack, and increases your carrying capacity to a reasonable amount.
I'm not really seeing where people get the idea that Recovery is particularly useful. Maybe it's just the playstyle I'm used to, but I think it's going to provoke a ton of ops more often than it's going to get you out of a full attack.
So, every swashbuckler will get a 1 panache swift/immediate action attack once per round with or without parry at full BAB... the riposte might kill an enemy to stop its attack, the pommel swipe gives a free trip attempt.
Except that riposte actually costs two panache, requiring one for the probably-useless parry, unless Signature Deed is involved, in which case riposte costs one and pommel swipe costs zero. Riposte is going to run through panache points at least twice as quickly as pommel swipe, all other things being equal.
Swashbuckler had Celestial Chain, so flight was no help.
They are in an invisibility high zone, and everyone and their mother has counters to invisibility (level 11, remember, major bad guys in the area are Ogre mages). PCs have about given up on INvisibility.
Stoneskin would have helped, had he memorized it. He was used to the Sorcerer being the one to cast that, so he didn't memorize it.
Will Save, see Stoneskin entry. Magus had pretty much taken Shield and all damage spells.
Anecdotal evidence drawn from an extremely specific situation is not particularly relevant to a comparison of the classes and their abilities, in general. A Magus has a lot more options to totally shut down a Swashbuckler than a Swashbuckler has to totally shut down a Magus; one Magus happening to select none of those options doesn't mean they don't exist.
Having a secondary stat at 13 is considered "too well rounded" now?I am of the opinion that a Dex 13 Swashbuckler who boosts Strength through the roof and a Str 14 Swashbuckler who boosts Dex through the roof should both be viable.Characters well rounded to the point of being Bowling balls do not do well in this system.
You need
Dex- because you're a swashbuckler
Charisma- for penache/ to look good
con- because you're a front line melee fighter, and you have no fort save
wisdom: because without it you have the will save of a narcoleptic lemming
Int if you want the improved X feats.
and strength.
Yes. Having your 5th/6th most important stat at 13 is a bowling ball.
The MONK is making MAD jokes.
You needDex- because you're a swashbuckler
Charisma- for penache/ to look good
con- because you're a front line melee fighter, and you have no fort save
wisdom: because without it you have the will save of a narcoleptic lemming
Int if you want the improved X feats.
and strength.Yes. Having your 5th/6th most important stat at 13 is a bowling ball.
The MONK is making MAD jokes.
Seemed to work just fine for my character on a 20 PB.
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I like this class, but it has a few problems, IMHO.
1- I too was hoping for Dex (or maybe Int) to damage. Level to damage is not as organic and blocks multi-classing way too much, IMHO. If this is out of fear of stacking the damage bonus with Dervish Dance, just change it to Dex (or Int) replacing the Str bonus to damage rolls, instead of adding to it, you can't replace Str twice, so it'd be okay. Give the class cool features and it won't be just a dip class.
2- Reflex as the only good save. This is not a minor disadvantage. This is a crippling weakness in any game that goes beyond 7th level, and a death sentence at 11th level and beyond. Swashbucklers should have good Fort too, IMHO.
3- Forced Weapon selection. Rapier is iconic, but I'd like the option to use my abilities with other 1-handed weapons too, such as whips, chakrams and longswords. That would add a lot of variety to Swashbuckler builds. I suggesting expanding the ability to work with one-handed Slashing weapons too.
4- Why not simply give it Weapon Finesse instead of going the needlessly complicated route of giving the class "all the benefits of Weapon Finesse"? Keep it simple.
The next ones are not exactly problems, but stuff I think could be added to the class without any problem:
5- While 4 skill points is okay, I'd expect a Swashbuckler (such as Zorro and Robin Hood) to have a least 6 + Int. Not that much of a problem, though.
6- Mobility. Swashbucklers don't really get anything to make them more mobile. Other than the Darring-do deed, that is, but that deed is terrible. Give it the ability to add Cha to Acrobatics and Escape Artist checks, spend Panache to move and attack more than once (maybe move as a swift action?) or something like that.
I agree about being railroaded into rapiers, shortswords, daggers. I've been dying to play with a spiked chain and this would be perfect. As written though, it's a no-go.
Having a secondary stat at 13 is considered "too well rounded" now?I am of the opinion that a Dex 13 Swashbuckler who boosts Strength through the roof and a Str 14 Swashbuckler who boosts Dex through the roof should both be viable.Characters well rounded to the point of being Bowling balls do not do well in this system.
You need
Dex- because you're a swashbuckler
Charisma- for penache/ to look good
con- because you're a front line melee fighter, and you have no fort save
wisdom: because without it you have the will save of a narcoleptic lemming
Int if you want the improved X feats.
and strength.Yes. Having your 5th/6th most important stat at 13 is a bowling ball.
The MONK is making MAD jokes.
You're a melee fighter with a Charisma-based resource. Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma are your prime stats. Intelligence, Constitution, and Wisdom are your "bowling ball" stats. If you're on 15 PB, you may have to pare down your expectations. If you're on 20, I don't even see the problem.
Seemed to work just fine for my character on a 20 PB.
You needDex- because you're a swashbuckler
Charisma- for penache/ to look good
con- because you're a front line melee fighter, and you have no fort save
wisdom: because without it you have the will save of a narcoleptic lemming
Int if you want the improved X feats.
and strength.Yes. Having your 5th/6th most important stat at 13 is a bowling ball.
The MONK is making MAD jokes.
Likewise, 20 point buy worked just fine for my Human Swashbuckler:
Str 12Dex 17 + 2
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 12
Cha 12
Edit: On a point buy 15 budget, I'd simply reduce the Dex to a starting score of 15 + 2 and be perfectly fine.
So, what if we don't force the class to be DEX based, but we just have it as an option?
What if instead of free predetermined feats that shoehorn you into a particular combat style, you just got an extra bonus feat and you could choose that combat style yourself?
What if I wanna make a STR based fighter that uses the Deeds mechanic?
Is the swashbuckler the wrong class for me?
Likewise, 20 point buy worked just fine for my Human Swashbuckler:
Str 12
Dex 17 + 2
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 12
Cha 12Edit: On a point buy 15 budget, I'd simply reduce the Dex to a starting score of 15 + 2 and be perfectly fine.
Str: 13
Dex: 18 (after racial +2)Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 12
^My starting stats. Before someone comes in with "Oh well you dumped Int it doesn't count."
What if I wanna make a STR based fighter that uses the Deeds mechanic?
Is the swashbuckler the wrong class for me?
Yes. =)
So you have a whopping... ONE penache more than a dwarven swashbuckler with a charisma of 5.
While I'm on the topic of the playtests, Rogue Eidolon has been drawing up some whacky swashbucklers and putting them into crazy fights. The swash 11/MoMS 1 beating two CR11 black dragons solo seemed really neat on the surface, but the fight scenario took away a lot of dragon tactical options. Also, a great deal of what makes a dragon's CR so high is magical defenses, which a swash need not be concerned about (unless they have a corrosive weapon?). I kind of want to see how that fight goes with two elder elementals (any flavor will do)... even so, just about every one of REs builds have 7 CHA and dip other classes. So while the reports all talk about what the swash(+whatever) can do, the fact that CHA is the dump stat seems like a design failure to me. RE also uses agile weapons, but is quick to point out they wouldn't have been necessary (still takes them every time though, so one wonders).
Hey Knick! Rhiana was actually a real character in an ongoing adventure path that we played before the playtest even existed. The entire situation was lifted exactly from the AP. She's also the only one of the non-core playtests with bad charisma (Drew has 18 Charisma, and Grace is even Charisma-primary, above Dex). I do agree that Cha-dumping is a problem though for the class. Maybe eliminate the "minimum 1" clause for panache and thus demand either 12 Charisma or the Extra Panache feat to even have panache at all?
As to using agile and all of the other stuff, I tried core-only so I could build some extremely parallel builds between Fighter and Swashbuckler, and it made some people ask for the use of all material because hyper-optimized core-only Fighter was not enough of a baseline for them (even though the fighter was kicking butt in the playtest too, so he clearly wasn't too weak for the challenges). I still think the best playtest is Sally and Fred because when you go off into wacky-land, it becomes harder to isolate which elements are causing the power of the PC, but nowhere on these playtest boards have I ever seen before or after a playtest that was as heckled as the core-only one was. So I figured my best option was to start high with everything added, save the d20 rolls, and then analyze through what differences it would make to strip each element away, as at least it helps isolate what changes different elements make. If you have any other good ideas to get that same effect, I'm interested in trying them too, though I may not wind up having time for another playtest.
So you have a whopping... ONE penache more than a dwarven swashbuckler with a charisma of 5.
Yep. What's your point?
I didn't say you couldn't get better mileage while dumping, just that it's quite possible to have a good stat allocation for this class without dumping anything, and that a 13 in Str is not at all infeasible.
Remember, YOU are the one who said he needed Cha, and that's part of the reason "the Monk laughs at the MAD". Are you retracting that statement now?