The ninja is supposed to be a dex based class but it works BETTER on strength.** spoiler omitted **
The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage. In the case of lowering Dexterity to increase Strength on a Swashbuckler who is only proficient in light armor, you take a big hit to armor class. Strength based Swashbucklers also take a big reduction in Initiative, Reflex Save, and many thematically appropriate class skills - These are not things to be ignored.
The problem here is not the Swashbuckler. The problem is that certain people pay attention to damage to the exclusion of all other aspects of a character. The problem is "DPR optimization".
I also agree. I think the Swashbuckler needs something—anything—to make those low levels just a bit sweeter, but that thing is NOT Dex to damage. Just something else he can use to contribute while the other guys dish out the high numbers.
To emulate the romance or fantasy swashbucklers of lore, they need to ensure a mix of Strength and Dex. Not all one. Not all the other. The Strength swashbuckler, which is very so much a valid one from the stories, still needs Dex. It'd be best if the Dex swashbuckler still needed Strength, as the roots of this class were not extreme weaklings.
13 Str will always be good for Power Attack. So even if Dex is added to damage instead of strength, tanking the stat is a bad option. Need to be able to carry that sword!
I think a deed that allow one to put cha to a save for a P point would be good.
To emulate the romance or fantasy swashbucklers of lore, they need to ensure a mix of Strength and Dex. Not all one. Not all the other. The Strength swashbuckler, which is very so much a valid one from the stories, still needs Dex. It'd be best if the Dex swashbuckler still needed Strength, as the roots of this class were not extreme weaklings.13 Str will always be good for Power Attack. So even if Dex is added to damage instead of strength, tanking the stat is a bad option. Need to be able to carry that sword!
Not to mention armor without being encumbered.
To emulate the romance or fantasy swashbucklers of lore, they need to ensure a mix of Strength and Dex. Not all one. Not all the other. The Strength swashbuckler, which is very so much a valid one from the stories, still needs Dex. It'd be best if the Dex swashbuckler still needed Strength, as the roots of this class were not extreme weaklings.
But to work within the system that has already been designed, they need to require as few stats as possible. Something, somewhere, has to be cut.
To emulate the romance or fantasy swashbucklers of lore, they need to ensure a mix of Strength and Dex. Not all one. Not all the other. The Strength swashbuckler, which is very so much a valid one from the stories, still needs Dex. It'd be best if the Dex swashbuckler still needed Strength, as the roots of this class were not extreme weaklings.But to work within the system that has already be designed, they need to require as few stats as possible. Something, somewhere, has to be cut.
Not really. They need 2 good stats. Two OK stats. And 1 stat they can't dump. That's par for the course when it comes to classes in PF.
I've gone over this repeatedly. I don't know how else to explain it. The Swashbuckler is more MAD than usual for this game. Partly because you have no dump stat (unless you want to be "cheesy" and dump Cha), and partly because even a 13 Strength hurts if you're on standard (15) point buy.
Wizard:
- One good stat (Int)
- Two OK stats (Dex and Con)
- One baseline stat (Wis)
- Two dump stats (Str and Cha)
Fighter:
- One good stat (Str)
- Two OK stats (Dex and Con)
- Two baseline stats (Wis and Int)
- One dump stat (Cha)
Monk:
- One good stat (Str)
- Three OK stats (Dex, Con, Wis)
- One baseline stat (Int)
- One dump stat (Cha)
Ranger:
- One good stat (Dex)
- Three OK stats (Str, Con, Wis) - For melee/switch-hitter rangers, reverse Dex and Str
- One baseline stat (Int)
- One dump stat (Cha)
Swashbuckler, in its current form:
- One good stat (Dex)
- Three OK stats (Str, Con, Cha)
- Two baseline stats (Wis, Int)
- No dump stat
Give it good reflex and good will saves.
Then Wis can be a dum stat. Sure it will hurt perception and other wisdom based skills, but still.
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The idea that a Swashbuckler should be able to be effective after dumping Dex is (to me) like saying a Wizard should be effective after dumping Int.
Swashbucklers should be agile and dextrous. Any mechanic, or set of mechanics, that fails to encourage this, or worse penalizes it, fails to provide us with a Swashbuckler, in my opinion.
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Something the GM I play with came up with for Bravery is as follows:
Bravery gives a +1 to will saves, increasing to +2 at lvl 9 and +3 at lvl 15. The save bonus is doubled against fear effects. This also places Bravery at lvl 3. I know this amazing against the save or suck mind affecting spells in the higher levels, but if they are intent on keeping Bravery around then this might be a decent option.
I think Charisma to will is also a decent idea, or at least giving them will as a second save.
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Lots of good stuff
I really like all these suggestions mixed together. They make for a quite enjoyable picture of how the class should play like. Kudos for noting the issues about Targeted Strike - it could be great to perform this deed when you only get a single attack roll during your round instead of the current full-round action.
DEX to fort - no. No stat should give you a bonus to Fort and Reflex saves.
CHA to Will saves would be something I could get behind conceptually, but it would result in WIS being dumped to a 7 on every single Swashbuckler and I'm not sure that would be desirable.
Swashbucklers don't need to be wise, they need to be awesome, not learn from their mistakes and get easily out of the trouble they put themselves in. I don't mind having 7 Wisdom and Intelligence, because I don't want to be wise or learn things besides sweet-talking and dueling. When getting in trouble with a big dumb barbarian over a beer, a swashbuckler won't think "Dear god, taunting that muscled gentleman for spilling his spirituous beverage would be unwise of me".
They'll say "Sorry avout your drink, mate ! But... let's be honest, it was wasted on your damn ugly mug.".I can totally picture Charisma to Will saves : "Come on, myself ! I said no to a pretty woman last night, I can say no to this creepy dude who raises litteral bones because he can't raise the most important one !"
What I'd like to see is a way to perform Reflex saves instead of Fort/Will saves. You just dodge so fast the poison doesn't get into your bloodstream, or the magic essence manipulated in the Suggestion spell just doesn't work how it was supposed to because you empty awesome brain isn't there anymore. Add in a Bluff check to make it seem as if the spell just succeeded and you're golden :D
"Die !" - *Wizard casts Suffocation*
*Swash dodges the spell's intricate magic web* - "I don't think so."
About the whole Str vs Dex argument :
I don't mind the class being forced into Dex and Cha.
- Ideally a swashbuckler shouldn't need more than 13 Str... if he wants to get Power Attack. PA doesn't fit well with precise thrusts like suggested by current deeds or even overall fluff anyway, especially if you don't make it clearer they cannot two-hand the weapon during deeds. Going 13 Str should be a choice (by giving more incentive to have high Dex and Cha), not a no-brainer.
- He shouldn't even need Dervish Dance either. There are other ways to make Dex relevant, and Dervish Dance would come with self-balancing features like the whole "costs 1 feat and doesn't allow shields".
Maybe there could be a Braggard-style archetype rewarding the 2H-ded longsword/dueling aldori sword style with deeds that don't suffer limitation regarding the handleness of the sword ?
A specific Dex-to-damage archetype getting dramatically more mobility at the expense of precise strike ?
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I like Maxximilius's idea of using Reflex saves for Fort/Will in special circumstances. Sounds like a Deed to me. Spend 1 panache (grit!) and make a Reflex save in place of a Fortitude or Will save.
I also think there should be some mechanical benefit for moving in and out of combat, feinting, etc. Maybe allow Dex to damage in special circumstances: When the swashbuckler moves 10 or more feet, when flanking, when attacking a flat-footed opponent, when attacking a shaken opponent, etc. etc.
And all flat bonuses to damage should be multiplied on a critical hit. It's just easier bookkeeping that way.
Also, give it Charisma to Will saves, and replace bravery with +1 AoO a round at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.
Lots of good stuff*snip*
DEX to fort - no. No stat should give you a bonus to Fort and Reflex saves.
CHA to Will saves would be something I could get behind conceptually, but it would result in WIS being dumped to a 7 on every single Swashbuckler and I'm not sure that would be desirable.
Swashbucklers don't need to be wise, they need to be awesome, not learn from their mistakes and get easily out of the trouble they put themselves in. I don't mind having 7 Wisdom and Intelligence, because I don't want to be wise or learn things besides sweet-talking and dueling. When getting in trouble with a big dumb barbarian over a beer, a swashbuckler won't think "Dear god, taunting that muscled gentleman for spilling his spirituous beverage would be unwise of me".
They'll say "Sorry avout your drink, mate ! But... let's be honest, it was wasted on your damn ugly mug.".
I can totally picture Charisma to Will saves : "Come on, myself ! I said no to a pretty woman last night, I can say no to this creepy dude who raises litteral bones because he can't raise the most important one !"
i actually really like this idea personaly
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The whole use-Reflex-for-other-saving-throws could be a double deed for mid-to-high levels :
Slippery Block-Head (Ex): As long as the swashbuckler has at least 1 point of panache left, he may use Charisma instead of Wisdom for the purposes of determining his bonus to Will saving throws.
In addition, by spending 1 panache as immediate action when requested to perform a Fortitude or Will saving throw, the swashbuckler may roll a Reflex saving throw instead.
Also, I really like your ideas too SmiloDan ! Dex to damage rewarding mobility is a great concept IMHO.
Replacing Bravery with an AoO would allow the Parry/Riposte deed to get efficient sooner (though it could still benefit from a lesser panache cost).|
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So I asked this before but it was maybe drowned out in my rambling; as worded Precise Strike applies to thrown melee weapons, is this intended?
It would allow a Swashbuckler to dump strength down and use rapid shot and deadly aim with precise strike on thrown Daggers/Starknives. Its also viable at level one without taking a redundant weapon finesse. Maybe not the best build but its an idea I am toying with.
In as far as I can tell, both from the wording, and likely intent... you could indeed use Precise Strike with a thrown weapon.
The only qualifications are; light or one-handed piercing melee
weapons. (Doesn't say you have to be IN melee.)
Dagger's are a 'light melee weapon, with piercing (or slashing) typed damage' with a range of 10', so they qualify. And a thrown dagger would only do piercing typed damage, so it qualifies on that aspect as well.
Well, for one thing, the fighter isn't worried about constructs....Much like the bard, it seems to me that the Swashbuckler is very much a fifth party member class. It can't take the place of a Fighter in a four man party, simply because a Swashbuckler isn't nearly as versatile, ...stuff...What versatility is the fighter have that the SW dosent? That justifyes a place in a 4 man team.
If that is the thing, then worry no more :)
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**OFFICIAL UPDATES**...
• In the Precise Strike deed, change the second sentence to "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler." Delete the third sentence. Only creatures immune to sneak attacks are immune to precise strike...
Now we can even have a mug in the off hand :)
So I asked this before but it was maybe drowned out in my rambling; as worded Precise Strike applies to thrown melee weapons, is this intended?
It would allow a Swashbuckler to dump strength down and use rapid shot and deadly aim with precise strike on thrown Daggers/Starknives. Its also viable at level one without taking a redundant weapon finesse. Maybe not the best build but its an idea I am toying with.
In as far as I can tell, both from the wording, and likely intent... you could indeed use Precise Strike with a thrown weapon.
The only qualifications are; light or one-handed piercing melee
weapons. (Doesn't say you have to be IN melee.)Dagger's are a 'light melee weapon, with piercing (or slashing) typed damage' with a range of 10', so they qualify. And a thrown dagger would only do piercing typed damage, so it qualifies on that aspect as well.
I think you may risk other folks telling you, that you smell of cheese, if you start talking about thorwn melee weapons. A weapon is either used as a throwing weapon or as a melee weapon.
It may fly with some GMs but i would say Ha ha ha, NO!|
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So I asked this before but it was maybe drowned out in my rambling; as worded Precise Strike applies to thrown melee weapons, is this intended?
It would allow a Swashbuckler to dump strength down and use rapid shot and deadly aim with precise strike on thrown Daggers/Starknives. Its also viable at level one without taking a redundant weapon finesse. Maybe not the best build but its an idea I am toying with.
In as far as I can tell, both from the wording, and likely intent... you could indeed use Precise Strike with a thrown weapon.
The only qualifications are; light or one-handed piercing melee
weapons. (Doesn't say you have to be IN melee.)Dagger's are a 'light melee weapon, with piercing (or slashing) typed damage' with a range of 10', so they qualify. And a thrown dagger would only do piercing typed damage, so it qualifies on that aspect as well.
I think you may risk other folks telling you, that you smell of cheese, if you start talking about thrown melee weapons. A weapon is either used as a throwing weapon or as a melee weapon.
It may fly with some GMs but i would say Ha ha ha, NO!
Two things;
1. How is it even remotely in the realm of cheese? Daggers are a melee weapon which happens to have a range (thrown) of 10'. I'm not talking about tossing a longsword around here. That they happen to also fall into the category (as given by Paizo) which would allow them to qualify for Precise Strike isn't my fault, and it surely isn't cheese if this was the intent of the designers.
2. Luckily, this is a PFS beta test, and if something is legal it is allowable, not at the GM's discretion. Notice I said nothing about the feats he was referring to, simply because THAT is a bag I don't want to open, and it wasn't really relative to the core of the question.
So I asked this before but it was maybe drowned out in my rambling; as worded Precise Strike applies to thrown melee weapons, is this intended?
It would allow a Swashbuckler to dump strength down and use rapid shot and deadly aim with precise strike on thrown Daggers/Starknives. Its also viable at level one without taking a redundant weapon finesse. Maybe not the best build but its an idea I am toying with.
In as far as I can tell, both from the wording, and likely intent... you could indeed use Precise Strike with a thrown weapon.
The only qualifications are; light or one-handed piercing melee
weapons. (Doesn't say you have to be IN melee.)Dagger's are a 'light melee weapon, with piercing (or slashing) typed damage' with a range of 10', so they qualify. And a thrown dagger would only do piercing typed damage, so it qualifies on that aspect as well.
I think you may risk other folks telling you, that you smell of cheese, if you start talking about thrown melee weapons. A weapon is either used as a throwing weapon or as a melee weapon.
It may fly with some GMs but i would say Ha ha ha, NO!Two things;
1. How is it even remotely in the realm of cheese? Daggers are a melee weapon which happens to have a range (thrown) of 10'. I'm not talking about tossing a longsword around here. That they happen to also fall into the category (as given by Paizo) which would allow them to qualify for Precise Strike isn't my fault, and it surely isn't cheese if this was the intent of the designers.
2. Luckily, this is a PFS beta test, and if something is legal it is allowable, not at the GM's discretion. Notice I said nothing about the feats he was referring to, simply because THAT is a bag I don't want to open, and it wasn't really relative to the core of the question.
Daggers are both thrown and melee weapons. If you throw a dagger while being threatened, you provoke an attack of opportunity for making a ranged attack. If you throw a dagger, you are using it as a ranged weapon, at which point it is no longer a melee weapon and would lose the precise strike damage.
Otherwise, you could argue that every time you shoot and arrow, you get the precise strike damage bonus, because arrows can be used as an improvised weapon that deals damage as a dagger. It's a light piercing weapon, so it qualifies right?[/sarcasm]
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Daggers are both thrown and melee weapons. If you throw a dagger while being threatened, you provoke an attack of opportunity for making a ranged attack. If you throw a dagger, you are using it as a ranged weapon, at which point it is no longer a melee weapon and would lose the precise strike damage.
Otherwise, you could argue that every time you shoot and arrow, you get the precise strike damage bonus, because arrows can be used as an improvised weapon that deals damage as a dagger. It's a light piercing weapon, so it qualifies right?[/sarcasm]
Bows are RANGED weapons, and arrows are PROJECTILES, at no point are they called out as being melee weapons. Using a weapon IN melee doesn't make it a melee weapon.
I'm not going to argue semantics here. As RAW a dagger/starknife/any throwable weapon, as long as it is listed as a light or 1-handed melee weapon, AND is a piercing weapon, if you have 1 panache in your pool, and you throw said weapon, you qualify for Precise Strike.
Literally all I am saying. If this isn't the intention of the designers, then I welcome clarification. But don't look for a mountain when all I'm offering is a molehill.
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What a weapon is, and how a weapon is used, are different things (c.f. the difference between two-handed weapons and using a weapon in two hands).
A dagger is a melee weapon, and doesn't stop being a melee weapon no matter how you choose to use it!
As currently worded, Precise Strike cares nothing about how a weapon is being used, only about what it is, light or one-handed piercing.
Perhaps it would be better if the wording was changed to focus on how the weapon is used.
Incidentally, 'improvised' doesn't come into it. An arrow is ammunition.
Really, they could just reprint the agile enchantment in this book. It would fit the theme of "magic items that support the new classes."
I know that there's already places where the system does this, but I don't like it when a class functioning well in the the fashion that it's presented as working hinges so completely on access to a specific magic item (or a feat in a side book, for that matter). A player with low system mastery who reads the Swashbuckler class sees that it's telling him or her that Dex is the attack stat. If the build that both the fluff and mechanics point towards requires a specific magic weapon to make sense, that's extremely bad in my eyes, even if the weapon is in the same book. If a class's power level swings super hard on access to a particular something, it should just be part of the class. (Which doesn't necessarily mean that I think the class should have Dex to damage; it could be messed around with in other ways.)
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Actually, the level-based damage function that is now being filled by Precise Strike could instead be filled by a Deadly Aim/Power Attack-like mechanic which is based on strictly swashbuckler levels. Say +3 damage per 4 levels, like 2H Power Attack, or +1/2 levels if that's too much.
It could then also be multiplied on a crit, like the gods intended. : )
Ooh, good call though, agile dagger in a blink back belt with rapid shot and deadly aim. No strength needed for that swasher. And, yeah, now i can smell a bit of a cheesy scent ;)
So now you're a gunslinger with a shorter ranger increment that has to attack real armor class?
I haven't read this whole thread through but some comments after making a level 10 Swashbuckler from a character building standpoint.
I dipped monk first off to get improved trip through an archetype. Odd that I am making a lawful swash but it works.
Swash on its own isn't good, it needs to pick up abilities by dipping to make it better. This is a bit silly in my opinion. Anyway I want to focus on a few things.
Swashbuckler Finesse: I don't particularly care that this only works for piercing weapons/light, please make it count that you have at least taken weapon finesse. That way you can actually take piranha strike. (also really needs to be level one)
Bravery: Why is this here, doesn't help me much. Can I have like an ability to spend panache for bonus saves or something?!
Swashbuckler weapon training: I have no issue with this itself but can it come part and parcel with armor training for light armor only? That way a dex swash doesn't need to worry about the armor too much and can just equip a mithral chain shirt and be done with it. It also means the dex swashes keep up with armor. (As others have said make it so they can take dex to damage, maybe say pick one specific weapon like rapier and that weapon counts as 'agile')
Deeds
Derring-do: So yea this is random and not worth the panache point. Why not just let it be you count as taking 20? It's not going to break anything that way. It lets you swashbuckle!
Opportune parry + riposte: Why would I use my panache points here when I can just take Crane style by dipping monk? That is better in every way? Make it work like the duelist ability, so you take up one attack instead of a panache. It'll be used more often but still has a cost.
Recovery: Another one of why should I spend the point? +2 AC and can still provoke... make it not provoke? It's not worth spending a point here.
Menacing and precise strike: These are good, maybe a few wording changes on precise strike so swashes don't get screwed in quite so many fights but it is fine.
Swashbuckler Initiative: Dull, spend a panache for take 10 on initiative? or something like that?
Pommel Swipe: Most of my points will be burnt here, an extra attack? Heck yea, It isn't a great attack but it's another attack!
Swift feint: Well this is pointless, standard action to deny dex for a miss? So on most high CRs this isn't going to do much? Except maybe help out people with sneak attack? The swash doesn't even benefit from this as a set up turn! Since it wears off before she gets to strike again.
Targeted Strike: So this is maneuvers but worse? Can't it be just disarm, trip, staggered or confused for one panache point as a standard action? It won't unbalance the ability.
Bleeding Wound: 1 point for extra 7-8 damage at this level? Really? Pommel swipe is better! 2 points for 1 stat damage? Really? Just no...
Evasive: This is fine.. perhaps comes a little late, but it's fine.
Subtle blade: Great!
Dizzying Defense: This kind of makes recovery obsolete and is also not that good, since you the can't use parry since that uses an AoO. Again better to pick up crane style.
Perfect thrust: Why isn't this just spend a standard action and a panache point to make a touch attack?! Full action AND a panache?! I mean you'll likely do more damage just full attacking then using this.
Swashbucklers edge: Great, by why don't we get this at level 7 instead of swift feint?
Cheat death Useful sometimes I guess.
Deadly stab: Quite good, I like it.
Stunning Stab: So .. does this stun the target for one round guaranteed? Or do you need to make them fail a save I can't tell? Again at 2 panache this is over costed.
Deeds other notes:
A lot of the better deeds require you to bank at least 1 panache, so you better not use up that last point. So you need at least 14 Cha to start using 1 ability sometimes and 16 Cha for more?
Why don't you have panache point equal to your level? Then only have them recover on criticals? I know that then downplays charisma but not all swashbucklers are smarmy or cocky, some of them will just be good at swordplay!
Should precise strike function with power attack? They seem at odds thematically and it would help to not encourage proliferation of str-based swashbucklers if they couldn't be performed simultaneously (although I wonder how much this would be a problem; do people care nothing for theme?)
Should precise strike function with power attack? They seem at odds thematically and it would help to not encourage proliferation of str-based swashbucklers if they couldn't be performed simultaneously (although I wonder how much this would be a problem; do people care nothing for theme?)
I don't know what could be more thematic than walking up the dragons snout and stabbing him in the eyeball reaaaaly hard
Should precise strike function with power attack? They seem at odds thematically and it would help to not encourage proliferation of str-based swashbucklers if they couldn't be performed simultaneously (although I wonder how much this would be a problem; do people care nothing for theme?)
I see Power Attack actually as it is by the game mechanic, stylized in what ever manner you wish to come up with; it could be a wild but powerful swing (Str based fighter) or a thrust to a vulnerable area (sacrifing the accuracy need to strike that vulnerable spot for the effect of causing a more lethal wound) that would be used by the swashbuckler.
Should precise strike function with power attack? They seem at odds thematically and it would help to not encourage proliferation of str-based swashbucklers if they couldn't be performed simultaneously (although I wonder how much this would be a problem; do people care nothing for theme?)I don't know what could be more thematic than walking up the dragons snout and stabbing him in the eyeball reaaaaly hard
Lol, I dunno. A quick series of precise cuts and thrusts sounds more on point to me (pun somewhat intended).
I see Power Attack actually as it is by the game mechanic, stylized in what ever manner you wish to come up with; it could be a wild but powerful swing (Str based fighter) or a thrust to a vulnerable area (sacrifing the accuracy need to strike that vulnerable spot for the effect of causing a more lethal wound) that would be used by the swashbuckler.
That's a good way to interpret it! Thanks for broadening my views :)
I agree with the saves. Reflex is the wrong one for the class I think. Fort and Wis both seem like better options. I like the idea of Cha to saves or even just to Wis. That would give Cha more oomph in the class seeing as how right now it is the obvious 'dump' stat.
So people don't like Dex to damage because of all the other things Dex does. I saw someone mention earlier the possibility of Cha to damage instead of Str. That would also shore up Cha(I don't know how that would be justified fluff wise). If we are doing Cha to saves (or just one save) I think this is a bad idea. Maybe Int like the Duelist instead?
A deed that allowed to move as part of a full attack would be nifty, and would play into the flavor of a mobile combatant.
I personally would change the weapons to light or one handed swords, not just piercing.
Maybe let Swashbucklers use Weapon Finesse with any one-handed or light melee weapon? While some weirdo swashbucklers will use warhammers or dwarven war axes, most will use high-threat range weapons like rapiers and scimitars and wakizashi. There might even be some Wicked Sisters wielding dual throwing axes or something cool like that.
Also, maybe there should be different Deed Paths? Like a battlefield control path, a mobility path, smart (Intelligence-based) tactics path, charming/fearsome (Charisma-based) path, duelist (single target) path, etc.
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The reason that Bravery is a fighter feature is that they didn't want to screw with the base table stats of the 3.5 core classes during the transition, but they wanted to do something about the fact that 3.5 fighters are more or less the biggest cowards in the entire edition. (3.5 assigned will saves based on how ~*~*~magical~*~*~ you are, rather than based on how strong-willed the archetype actually is.) The swashbuckler doesn't necessarily have to go down that road again; it has more options.
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I agree. Dex to damage is not necessary for the Swashbuckler, since it has the Precise Strike mechanic.
I'm sorry, but that is just wrong. Precise Strike is the most straight-forward, clear cut thing this class has going.
All it does is offset the damage lost from using a single one-handed weapon in place of a two-handed weapon (or paired weapons). At that, significant damage is lost off any crits, with that damage getting timeshifted over into the next round, for one attack at most, if you give up your swift action. This is an extra cost required to break even, not a bonus. This post breaks the math down. It is worth noting that any time you can find some other way to push your strength bonus up to an even number (enlarge person, rage, wishes, bull's strength, etc.) that's an extra point of damage on top of what is included here. People insisting this somehow out damages a fighter are A- Ignoring the base damage from a two-handed weapon being higher (rapier is 1d6, average 3.5, falchion is 2d4, average 5), B- Ignoring the swift action cost (there is a huge argument that needs to happen over this), C- Only looking at damage projections for level 20 (you start doing a few points less, finish doing a few points more, tipping point comes in the low teens, where most campaigns and APs end), and D- Forget that they lose this damage against anything immune to precision damage, or any time they are forced to use another weapon (i.e. a bow).
Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.Ayep. I entirely agree. My quick fix is to make riposte and immediate action instead of taking an attack of opportunity. I'm still thinking about the panache cost and looking through playtests.
There's honestly two problems with it as-written. There's the ridiculously prohibitive cost (panache, AOOs, high risk of failure, a feat), and there's the weirdness of not having to really block the attack to get the counter. Particularly since you are so highly incentivized to spend panache back down to 1 the instant you get it (to avoid wasted recharges), and thus you're already taking a huge gamble keeping even one point in reserve to use it, I still say the way to balance it is like this:
Combine it into a single ability. After the attack roll has been made, but before damage is rolled, if (and only if) the result is a hit, you may spend a point of panache to attempt to parry. If that's successful, the attack retroactively misses and provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
Costs less (which it should, it's massively overpriced), but it's now way more of a risk (no chance of getting a free attack in off someone rolling a 1), and it has such a small window of opportunity it's just a neat flavorful side option instead of something you can plan around (attack roll in the sweet spot where it beats your AC, but not so high you can't hope to beat it, and you have to have saved a point of panache to the end of your turn). Considering you're giving up on a sure thing with the panache point anyway, it's not even always going to be your best option when you do get the chance, which honestly seems to be about the balance point for all deeds as is.
I see a suggestion for CHA/DEX to saves; what would be the rationale for this? I'm not saying there is none, but I'm just curious. I can see maybe CHA to Will (force of personality makes them not easily dominated) and *maybe* DEX to Fort (though I think they should just get a good progression), but not one of them to both...
The logic behind cha to saves is the same here as it is for (tested and proven) paladins. You have entirely too many stat dependencies to properly build this class without a REALLY generous point-buy spread or if you're oldschool, high rolls across the board. Every class needs to have one or two things they can dump. Generally, a melee class has no use for charisma, here we do, so let's take the pressure off the save stats and consolidate all that here, and give 2 good saves while we're at it for good measure (although I still say I could live with just fort). The paladin's honestly still better off because the things it uses charisma for actually scale up properly, but hey.
Not sure how I feel about Dex-to-damage yet, but this statement intrigued me. When/why does AC get useless? Feel free to message me if you think this is too far off-topic.
The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage. In the case of lowering Dexterity to increase Strength on a Swashbuckler who is only proficient in light armor, you take a big hit to armor class.Its a moderate hit, and AC gets kind of useless after a certain point.
OK, you get diminishing returns with dex based AC in 3 ways:
1- You get diminishing returns with all AC because attack rolls from monsters scale up faster than AC does. By the high single digit levels even, you're routinely dealing with big piles of natural attacks that all have a +20 or so to hit, and they just get higher from there. If you REALLY focus on defense above all else, high dex is one of the elements you have to contribute, but others include blowing all your money enhancing armor and shields, and taking total defense actions, so it really isn't ever worth the effort as more than a thought experiment. And even if it WAS, nothing's ever going to beat a mithral full plate fighter with a tower shield (except maybe some weird monk build I'm forgetting).
2- It's less reliable. AC from armor stays up all the time, and applies to everything but touch attacks. Touch attacks are fairly common but but they tend to be delivered by glass cannons you can quickly identify and take out, then you're good. All kinds of stuff can deny you your dex bonus to AC- Getting caught flat footed, fighting someone you can't see, getting pinned down by rogues and ninja, having your strength lowered if you're close to your light load limit, and a truckload of special conditions. Again, touch attacks are pretty common too, but there's just the one wizard or wight to deal with there. Most things that kill your dex AC kill it for EVERYONE, and generally remove your ability to react too, so you're just this sitting duck.
3- Max Dex is a thing. Assuming you are wearing some kind of armor, there is a limit on how high your total AC bonus from dex and armor can be. Generally, +8. At the extreme ends of the spectrum, it varies a little (+9 with a +8 dex, +10 with a +1 dex, and Breastplates are a +9 sweet spot at +3 dex). If you have access to every type of armor, it is generally reasonable to assume you will always strive to find something with max dex equal to your dex bonus, and unless you severely dump dex through the floor, this is easily achieved either when first making your character, or before you hit level 2. Because of this tradeoff, increasing dex does not actually increase your AC. Your AC remains the same, you just switch to lighter armor.
This is not to say there aren't advantages to lighter armor. It's literally lighter, which matters a lot for a str dumper (trading AC for the ability to hold stuff until your bonus grows in to match the cap of what you can actually wear). There's also the armor check penalty to str and dex based skills but ultimately it doesn't matter. If you really care, pumping ranks in every level easily offsets penalties that small, you can power through them with raw stats for low-level challenges, if you don't do either you're already just going to fail, and then for high level challenges, there's cheap magic workarounds. Tricky enough climb or acrobatics check to worry about armor weighing you down? Spider climb or jump. At higher levels, fly. Finally, there's reduced movement, which can potentially be a huge deal, but usually, if you're making the sort of character who wears real heavy armor, you're getting a mount or playing a dwarf, or a fighter, or otherwise cheating around it. Mithral breastplates are a fun cheat too, but see point 1. For that matter, see point 2 about all of this. The lighter your armor, the more you're minmaxing towards death by denied-dex. Another thing to consider in here though is that if you are constantly pumping your dexterity up, and sticking with the best fit armor, you are... constantly buying and selling new armor. Half the cost you sink into one type is flushed down the toilet when you go lighter later. With a character like Debbie, if I was bothering to upgrade the enhancement bonus on armor, I'd either be throwing money away, or I'd have severely reduced AC for several levels while starting in padded.
So again. Practicality time with this- High dex does not provide better AC. Lighter armor restrictions just raise the minimum dex needed to maintain an AC of 18 before enhancements from other sources. There is however one important caveat though- High dex does not provide better AC, unless you are a fighter. A fighter's armor training raises their max dex cap, lowers their ACP, and even allows them to move at full speed while wearing heavy armor. Fighters shatter normal AC limits, this is a cool thing unique to the class.
Everyone making this argument about getting high AC "for free" are comparing a dex-based swashbuckler to a str-based swashbuckler to do it. This is overlooking the very important fact that a str-based swashbuckler is an objectively awful thing to play, and should not be used as a baseline for comparison. Setting aside that playing such a swash flies completely in the face of the class' concept of being a viable option for low-str high-dex melee concepts, let's look at how they stack up to a fighter, shall we?
Str-Swash is a clearly inferior option to Fighter. Hands down. Compare it to any other melee class and you see similar problems. They're generally all balanced against the fighter by losing the armor training (which we lose, along with even using that armor), the versatility (which we really lose), and the bonus feats (which we mostly lose), and the damage gap widens significantly next to the barbarian in particular.
Very few changes are actually to these points if we compare the str-fighter to a hypothetical dex-swash who is simply given dex to damage in place of str, and given access to a version of power attack which just works (no extra feat requirements, no minimums in stats we don't otherwise use, by all means feel free to slap it with a minimum of 13 dex, 13 cha, usable only under the same conditions as precise strike, I'd even be cool with a min 13 int, and/or min swashbuckler level). Practically, this would allow us to take a stat array appropriate to a fighter and flip their str/dex/cha to dex/cha/str (18/14/7 being a ballpark of the values we're talking), here's what changes from the above;
This still honestly clearly sucks next to a fighter, but with a couple tweaks (fix the saves, make deeds more worthwhile), it's flavorful enough to offset it, and most of the remaining problems fade out at higher levels.
Meanwhile of course, without those tossing in those damage adds the whole game is balanced around dedicated melee characters having...
Anyway, once that's dealt with, I still think the action costs of deeds in general need a look at. Most of these swifts should just be "apply this effect to your next attack" so they aren't all conflicting with each other and with the other very potent uses a swift action normally has. It feels like lazy shorthand for "you can only add this to one of your attacks for the round" that wasn't really thought through fully. I don't see why Targeted Strike should be more than a standard (I could even see it as applying an effect to your next attack), and... I still need to play around with the higher level ones.
Googleshng, you are forgetting about feats that add to defense, like Snake Style, or Crane Style, both of which are absurdly good for Swashbucklers. It's easier to pump Sense Motive than AC for Snake Style, but this basically prevents you from using Swift actions.
Crane Style comes with an attack penalty, but it is a far better Parry/Riposte combo, and it nets you a +4 dodge bonus.
An 18 dex character can be have no magical items and have an AC of 23, wearing only a chain shirt, using Crane Style. A Fighter can use Crane Style too, but then he's restricted to a 1 handed weapon (must keep 1 hand free) and can't use a shield.
Now, it is true that a Fighter can get a higher AC, with no magical or feat investment, but the reality is that a well built Swashbuckler should have an AC comparable to that of any Fighter.
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this thread changed from once was "i really like x but wish that Y was handled differently" to "class X is better than This class because of y,and z" I think we should recenter and think of useful things for the developers rather than complain why this class isnt better than a dex based fighter, or a gunslinger etc.
Personally I like most of the things the way they are, there are options to get more damage, or to have more flair. One good save is a bit harsh, but other than that, 4-6 skills seems about right, more pinache would be nice, especially with how much this class will be using the riposte and parry abilities(possibly 1/2 level plus cha) and maybe another deed could entail a ranged parry, like the iconic swashbuckler swiping an arrow out of the air. sounds cool thematically. I am a little worried at the talk of changing riposte to an immediate action,with signature deed for parry, you can riposte quite a few times. but doesn't limit you to once per round, and then give up your swift action as well. I see that fencer/swashbuckler parry and riposte quite a few times in their duels every 6 seconds. not lunge(riposte once) and then sit on the defensive for the remaining 5 seconds.
just my 2 cp on the subject thusfar.
Googleshng, you are forgetting about feats that add to defense, like Snake Style, or Crane Style, both of which are absurdly good for Swashbucklers. It's easier to pump Sense Motive than AC for Snake Style, but this basically prevents you from using Swift actions.
Crane Style comes with an attack penalty, but it is a far better Parry/Riposte combo, and it nets you a +4 dodge bonus.
An 18 dex character can be have no magical items and have an AC of 23, wearing only a chain shirt, using Crane Style. A Fighter can use Crane Style too, but then he's restricted to a 1 handed weapon (must keep 1 hand free) and can't use a shield.
Now, it is true that a Fighter can get a higher AC, with no magical or feat investment, but the reality is that a well built Swashbuckler should have an AC comparable to that of any Fighter.
Just in case it got lost in the shuffle, as a point of clarification-
I am not saying swashbucklers don't get enough AC. I'm saying swashbucklers getting a big ol' dex boost to AC doesn't give them the advantage people are all freaking out over.
There are a lot of ways to get a crazy high AC if you really want it, but it's generally class-agnostic, and the only way to really do it with high dex is if by "high" you really mean high. You're still tied with any random dude in full plate at 30 Dex.
Fighters though actually do just kinda stumble into high AC without even trying through armor training, so, that's something to look at when comparing the two classes.
Also I'm really sorry to everyone in general for all these novel length posts I keep writing on this stuff. Just trying to look at it from every angle.