I'm seeing (and experiencing in a PbP) two different, but related issues here:
- Although the utility of the Favored Target's skill bonuses may be a good thing, when the class' name is the "Slayer" I'm looking for a little extra slaying power. As Cheapy said above - PaperStSoapCo's illustration is somewhat disheartening, especially for Slayers that do want to invest in TWF, which my Slayer definitely does.
- when compared to the Ranger, as Umbriere and Lord_Malkov are contributing to my understanding, the Ranger kinda beats the slayer at that utility.
So:
* I would posit that the Slayer, as a killing machine titled character class gets some help meeting certain iconic combat feat prereqs (or bonus feats) and or definitely gets 6 skill points per level. I know in my home game I will definitely be giving them 6 regardless of the official rules. PFS might be a problem for Slayer players with 4 skill points/level.
* Some straight precision damage rather than sneak attack would be interesting, and again calling for a Bane-like ability...
N.B.Just as a personal point of view, I don't agree with posters who think the Slayer needs any Disable Device nor Sleight of Hand type skills. Maybe a tricksy archetype, but not the base...
i'd like to see talent taxes for trapfinding and trap spotter so the slayer has some roguish options that allow it the option of being a rogue substitute.
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I just got done putting a level 7 TWF slayer through his paces over in the Playtest Feedback forum if anyone wants to give it a look. :)
Yep, I looked it over. Great feedback. I still think the TWF fighting suffers, as I pointed out there:
But this still affects Slayers with TWF - my Slayer in a PbP is trying to focus on TWF, but I'm not looking forward to the move action to study:
Favored Target (Ex): At 1st level, a slayer can as a move action study an opponent.because of this regarding two weapon fighting:
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Chapter 3), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.[Emphasis mine]
Favored target needs to be a swift action or less.
In related news-->Has anyone built a slayer archer?
I have. At first level and 7th.
Shooting into melee is a pain at level 1 as a non human has to wait till 3rd level for precise shot.
Otherwise it was great. I used FT every turn, and if my target died I picked another with my move action and fired.
Level 7 gave me more archery feats so I sat in the back corner dealing death.
Both encounters in that game I had an opportunity to observe out enemies before combat (1st as a captive and 2nd with gloves of reconnaissance) so I didn't waste any actions picking FT
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Favored target as a move action doesn't seem as horrible for a TWF user, since it already sort of plays into the weakness of the style. Given you're going to be based around getting full attack actions so you can sneak attack as much as possible.
TWF Rogue Plan
1) Move into position, attack once with main hand
2) 5ft step to hopefully flank, full attack
3) Repeat 2, then go back to step 1 when the target dies.
TWF Slayer Plan
1) Study a target, move into position
2) 5ft step to hopefully flank, full attack
3) Repeat 2, then go back to step 1 when the target dies.
So you can easily just trade your single hit on the opening rounds to gain the favored target bonus on your followup full attacks.
So how great the TWF Slayer is all just depends on how many full attack routines you get in before your targets die or run away. So if you've got a constant flank buddy and slow high hp enemies, slayer seems great. If you have no other melee folks in your group or lots of super mobile or long range enemies, that Two Weapon Slayer is going to be sad.
Favored target as a move action doesn't seem as horrible for a TWF user, since it already sort of plays into the weakness of the style. Given you're going to be based around getting full attack actions so you can sneak attack as much as possible.
I see that, but as a Slayer you aren't getting sneak attack until level 3.
TWF Slayer Plan
1) Study a target, move into position
2) 5ft step to hopefully flank, full attack
3) Repeat 2, then go back to step 1 when the target dies.So you can easily just trade your single hit on the opening rounds to gain the favored target bonus on your followup full attacks.
Sure, but it's still frustrating that the SLAYER doesn't begin to slay until round 2. Not really the beast of bursting speed and deadliness I'd imagine a Slayer to be.
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Favored target needs to be a swift action or less.
In related news-->Has anyone built a slayer archer?
We have a slayer archer in our online playtest run
http://paizo.com/campaigns/SleetStormsACGPlaytest/gameplay&page=last
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Favored target needs to be a swift action or less.
In related news-->Has anyone built a slayer archer?We have a slayer archer in our online playtest run
LINKIFIED
edit ninja'd XD
Right now it seems the ranger(guide) variant is a better slayer than the slayer due to action economy alone. He gets +2 and does not have to depend on sneak attack. As someone suggested getting bane as a limit use ability is not a bad idea.
From another build a level 10 slayer with sneak attack and flanking got about 82 DPR
Let's replace that with bane --> 56.75
If bane counts for both weapons then it is 67.74
Let's try using the +6 bonus a level 10 ranger would get instead to replace favored target. 88.03
Bane should come into play around 5th level and work like the inquistor's version in my opinion. Yeah that means a feat tax to get it to apply to both ends of a double weapon.
Since I have time lets see what the guide can come up with. 52.24, but it is a dex based build. By going for strength and changing weapons it can get above 60, so I would like to see the slayer at 70.
I don't care if he is below the ranger, that leaves room for more combat based utility such as being able to ignore DR to an extent. <-----just a thought.
Archery will never be a good slayer build... not with how things are right now.
You basically say bye-bye to sneak attack except possibly in the first round of combat if you go this way, and the Ranger feats/spells/pet to help with the innevitable melee enemies getting to you are all going to come out looking better than a Slayer.
You can snipe one sneak attack shot out a round, but really... that is just no good.
Wipe sneak attack off the table and the Slayer is a very barren class.
Frankly its a bit barren WITH sneak attack. So melee is the way to go, for the moment.
I agree. I am hoping SA is removed.
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I would like sneak attack replaced as well, to make a ranged slayer more viable. Moreso though this class heeds a lot more flavor. As I see the class currently it is just a build and seems to be lacking in noncombat stuff to do.
In my original thoughts on it, I called it "murderer" andnhave yet to see any sign it is moving to become more than that. Might be fun as an npc miniboss, but I don't really see an appeal to developing a character over the course of a campaign with it.
Hey now... Archetypes could make it work. Archertypes? Hah!
One thing to keep in mind is that the Guide ranger will out damage a fighter for those 4 targets a day.
The Ranger has 2 extra Str on the basis of not needing to meet qualifications for ITWF, and Ranger's Focus is giving +6 at this level vs the Favored Target giving +3....Why is the ranger's to hit so much higher?
In DPR terms I'm not sure if you're actually doing the slayer justice with a STR focus. Weapon Finesse is essentially a free feat. High damage per hit due to SA means that from an optimization perspective you need to prioritize your to hit and you can do that better with a Finesse Build. When doing DPR for Rogues Power Attack will oftentimes lower your DPR this might also be the case for a Slayer.
Building two builds for two different classes with exactly the same feats is usually not gonna be a fair comparison as you should try to compare two optimal builds. What is optimal will vary from class to class...
The Ranger has 2 extra Str on the basis of not needing to meet qualifications for ITWF, and Ranger's Focus is giving +6 at this level vs the Favored Target giving +3....Why is the ranger's to hit so much higher?In DPR terms I'm not sure if you're actually doing the slayer justice with a STR focus. Weapon Finesse is essentially a free feat. High damage per hit due to SA means that from an optimization perspective you need to prioritize your to hit and you can do that better with a Finesse Build. When doing DPR for Rogues Power Attack will oftentimes lower your DPR this might also be the case for a Slayer.
Building two builds for two different classes with exactly the same feats is usually not gonna be a fair comparison as you should try to compare two optimal builds. What is optimal will vary from class to class...
When I get home this evening, I will work on a Dex build to see if the numbers are any better. My initial thoughts are that the SA dice don't progress fast enough for an improvement. Rogues often need to prioritize to hit much more than full BAB classes to actually ensure they are connecting, especially given their lack of in-class means of boosting that number.
I think sneak attack should stay. However, the slayer doesn't have anything that keeps even with favored enemy or weapon training. My suggestion is to not only change favored target to a swift action, but double the damage bonus.
It shouldn't keep even with favored enemy. The ranger should excel compared to the slayer against his favored enemies. And the fighter should be doing more damage when using his weapon training weapons. Martial classes are built around this paradigm of varying levels of specialization. Rangers should excel against their favored enemies, and be alright against others. The fighter should excel with his weapons. The paladin should excel against evil foes. The cavalier should excel against whoever he uses Smite Whatever The Hell You Want.
Doubling the bonus across the board from Favored Target puts it at a level of Favored Enemy, except against any enemies he wants. That shouldn't be the case.
Making the activation a swift or free action, without the doubling of the bonuses, essentially gives him the same to hit and damage bonuses of a fighter.
Why play a ranger or fighter if the slayer is there with both of those changes? You'd be doing the same damage as the ranger against his favored enemies...and every other enemy. And you are just flat out doing more damage than the fighter.
No, there are reasons for all of those factors. Things Sean is going to have to investigate, but it is not a good idea to double the bonus and lower the action cost from the get go.
If the slayer doesn't do more damage than a fighter while sneak attacking, what exactly does he do?
I was only referring to Favored Target. Although you bring up an excellent point. The Favored Target bonus to-hit and damage needs to be behind the fighter, so that it can excel when they are sneak attacking.
The Ranger has 2 extra Str on the basis of not needing to meet qualifications for ITWF, and Ranger's Focus is giving +6 at this level vs the Favored Target giving +3....Why is the ranger's to hit so much higher?In DPR terms I'm not sure if you're actually doing the slayer justice with a STR focus. Weapon Finesse is essentially a free feat. High damage per hit due to SA means that from an optimization perspective you need to prioritize your to hit and you can do that better with a Finesse Build. When doing DPR for Rogues Power Attack will oftentimes lower your DPR this might also be the case for a Slayer.
Building two builds for two different classes with exactly the same feats is usually not gonna be a fair comparison as you should try to compare two optimal builds. What is optimal will vary from class to class...
The only way a dex build competes is if the agile enhancement is used, and I dont think it is in any of the 4 hard covers so I dont like to assume it will be allowed. Otherwise the strength base build will come out ahead.
At level 20, favored target bonus is +5. This provides a nice to-hit parity with the fighter. Doubling the damage bonus would up them to +10. The fighter can close 80% of that gap just by taking Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. I am not at all worried about fighters closing a 5 point damage gap. The reason I suggested double favored target damage is because I expect otherwise the slayer will simply fall behind.
Even at 20th level, you just aren't likely to see more than about 100 damage or so, total, from sneak attack, and that's situational. To even get that, you're forgoing two-handed Power Attacks, and you will probably not have anything like the enhanced crit capabilities of a fighter of that level.
I think staying even with Ranger Favored Enemy would be perfectly fine. Yes, that means that we are better across the board against even his Favored Enemies. That does, however, disregard all the other things a Ranger gets access to that we don't. I'd actually be alright with the loss of Animal Companion and Spells if it meant we were basically always fighting against a "favored enemy". As far as in relation to the Fighter, we'll always be losing out on versatility and armor compared to them, and I think I'm alright with that being their schtick. They're going to be able to invest in TWF as well as tripping/disarming/critting/whatever while being able to wear heavy armor and, with armor training, able to apply just as much of a Dex bonus.
Also, as a post-edit to my previous post about a Dex build, using the same "elite array" that I used for the previous builds obviously wouldn't change much, so I will use a 15 point buy, though this also allows for more specialization that will skew results. Just forewarning.
Actually I posted a DEX based build a few pages back that should be doing pretty nicely on the DPR front. It utilizes Combat Reflexes with a number of modes to provoke them at level 10 and thus should be gaining quite a few AoO in one round. However it would be extremely difficult to figure out damage in a DPR calculation for the build...
Here's a link...
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdjc&page=4?Slayer-Discussion#193
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I've been playing a Slayer archer in Way of the Wicked in celebration of the playtest, in a two man group with an alchemist (and lately some cohorts and other NPCs. Book 2, if you're familiar). It works about as well as you might expect (i.e. not a lot). He's a passable archer, and that alone helps out. He's definitely no better than a ranger. He also has no utility outside combat that a Ranger wouldn't just do better. Well, I do like favored target --> sense motive, but that's not justification for a class. The part I don't get is why they threw in some half-hearted archery talents new and exclusive to the Slayer when the mechanics around Slayer archers are really just kind of sad.
Blurg's probably got the best succinct statement of the Slayer's issue in 12 pages: the slayer's mechanics pull him in too many different directions, and it hurts his combat ability, especially prior to L10.
Like others have repeatedly mentioned, I'd like to see the slayer able to pick up at least three or four levels of the ranger's combat style tree as stalker talents. And I'd really wish sneak attack were replaced, or the stalker gain some mechanic to make setting up his/her SA easier.
Weapon Specialization (still requiring Weapon Focus) as a stalker talent, maybe calling it Signature Weapon?, around 6th or 8th level would be nice too if it doesn't step too much on a fighter's toes. Maybe an Infamous Blade talent that grants an Intimidation bonus while wielding his/her signature weapon?
As an addendum to my earlier suggestion, if you wanted to leave the favored target mostly alone, doubling the damage bonus would be a beautiful talent. That's roughly feat-equivalent.
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I had my own idea for Slayer to get Ranger Combat Style Feats, just at a reduced pace - Maybe 3rd level, 9th level, and 15th level as opposed to Ranger's 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th.
I recently ran a 9th level Elven Slayer who relied on two-weapon fighting as his main combat method. I focused on being a switch hitter and did everything in my power to increase my Initiative so that I could go first (ended with a +15 init at 9th level).
My ranged combat methods focused on using 2 Repeating Hand Crossbows (Ultimate Equipment). I do feel that spending the feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency was very much worth it and this combined well with having Quick Draw to insure I could full attack. EDIT: Oh and this guy would totally retrain for two Revolvers if he ever came across that level of technology.
In melee, I used two kukri's for increased crit range or if I needed slashing damage or two cestus'(cesti?) if I was disarmed or needed bludgeoning or piercing weapons. I was kinda decked out in weaponry of all sorts of types. In the adventure, I ended up adding 10 MW Shurikens despite not have EWP for them. Once again Quick Draw was helpful here.
If I was able to start off the fight on my own terms (using stealth or invisibility if needed), I would definitely annihilate a target (especially if I was able to Favorite Target them prior to the start of combat) using the Repeating Hand Crossbows. Then I would drop my Repeating Hand Crossbows and Quick Draw out my Kukris and try to maneuver into a good flanking position to continue bringing the brutal two-weapon sneak attack beats. Quick runner's shirt is definitely wanted (and an oversight on my part as I had forgotten about it... fortunately I was in a large enough town to potentially purchase the item).
The full statblock will be presented when the full playtest report is posted by the DM (or maybe me). I had fun with it but I did feel the action economy hit that was Favored Target. I definitely atleast felt like a slayer though.
I see what you mean, Blurg. I mean, I got that, but my paraphrase failed to really capture it.
Crazy, unrelated idea: what would it be worth to the Slayer, in terms of other class features, to just straight up have Pounce? I mean, it solves the problem of when to declare targets before 10 ("I don't, I just full attack"), the issue of how to position their weaker, 60% sneak attacks ("I just move, then I full attack"), and it also gives him something relatively unique: being a martial that pounces without any trickery, magic, or archetypes and mess. It also would be relatively flavorful, because ambushes usually hinge on being able to hurt people fast, not spending a round positioning, getting one attack, and then letting them escape. It would make them good in a lot of situations, but really good (sub-10) when they get a chance to observe their targets, then attack.
Well, it doesn't hurt until 6, unless you're TWFing. Just plop it down at 6th and make whatever nerfs necessary unrelated to that. Hell, make it something like...
Slayer's Charge (ex): At (3rd? 4th?) level, when a Slayer charges his favored target, he may choose to make one offhand attack as if TWFing with a full attack action.
Improved Slayer's Charge: At 6th level, a Slayer gains the Pounce UMR.
It's a rough idea, but the point is even if you dip 3 or 4 levels of Slayer, you're losing out on some bonus feats and important class features from what you're really taking, and all you get out of it is one extra attack on a charge, which defeats the ideal purpose of pounce. The real problem is figuring out why you'd want more levels of Slayer after the 6, but if you can't answer that, I think that means the class has got issues.
TWF Slayer Plan
1) Study a target, move into position
2) 5ft step to hopefully flank, full attack
3) Repeat 2, then go back to step 1 when the target dies.
A class that requires a full round of not attacking anything, not to mention eating a full attack before getting any sort of shot in, in order to get the most out of it's class features is a class that isn't very well designed.
Slayer has full BAB and a sneak attack progression; people wanting to make a TWF build is something anyone could have seen coming. Instead of forcing people to work with an awkward set of mechanics, the devs should steer into the skid and make it more TWF friendly.
Exactly my feelings. As I said upthread:
...it's still frustrating that the SLAYER doesn't begin to slay until round 2. Not really the beast of bursting speed and deadliness I'd imagine a Slayer to be.
It kinda reminds we of the initial days of NWN2 when they forgot to make it possible to put two-weapons into an equipment swapout hotkey for Rangers...
@Blurg: I agree with your summation of the Slayer as 4e Ranger/Quarry.
* I'm also fond of Ambrosia Slaad's Ranger Combat Styles stuff (I think I said something similar earlier in the thread) and Jaunt's Pounce-esque concept.
* I'm not rolling with a light armored slayer currently, that wasn't my idea of the concept. I figure the Hunter for the hunting/tracking/deft ambusher and the Slayer for the downright killability.
Rereading the class' flavor text I kinda dismiss this:
Skilled at tracking down targets and bringing an end to them, slayers are consummate hunters, living for the chase and the deadly stroke that brings it to an end.
as that sounds like a Hunter, and instead focus on this:
Slayers spend most of their time honing their weapon skills, studying the habits and anatomy of foes, and practicing combat maneuvers. Theirs is a dedication to the art of death.
which sounds like a Slayer. Though the "combat maneuvers" or Slayer Talents don't really seem like enough, and as Lord Malkov said:
Wipe sneak attack off the table and the Slayer is a very barren class. Frankly its a bit barren WITH sneak attack. So melee is the way to go, for the moment.
I'd feel appropriately sad if at second level all I got was a choice from the paltry list of talents currently. Weapon Finesse? I don't even consider that feat in my campaigns - it's a weapon capability.. Rogue Crawl? Snap Shot? Very situational. I'd want to be able to choose maybe 2 or 3 Situational Talents at a time, AND maybe a Broadly Useful Talent.
* +1 to Blurg's idea here:
A talent that let you immediately use Favored Target if your Favored Target dies during Not Your Turn would be an enormous boon.
but why make it a talent? Make it a class feature, and none too late either. This class needs some more features, and I'd be happy to lop off sneak attack for something different, such as Jaunt's Pounce/Slayer's Charge.
The more I read these the more I sour on sneak attack for the slayer. The class begs for some sort of damage mechanic that can be executed solo and/ or at a distance with regularity. The whole fluff of the class is this brooding solitary stalker...a skilled and sleek killer. A guy patterened after characters like Riddick, Wolverine, Deathstroke, or Artemis Entreri. It just seems thematically wrong that he be so reliant on a partner, or bluffing to be leathal. He should be so dangerous because he is just that damn good. To steal a line....the best there is at what he does,and what he does ain't pretty. I am not sure if Bane works, or something similar to above using vital strike, or doubling down on favored target with a more robust damage, but a robust corner stone ability that makes the slayer superior solo killer is strongly called for.
The Ranger has 2 extra Str on the basis of not needing to meet qualifications for ITWF, and Ranger's Focus is giving +6 at this level vs the Favored Target giving +3....Why is the ranger's to hit so much higher?In DPR terms I'm not sure if you're actually doing the slayer justice with a STR focus. Weapon Finesse is essentially a free feat. High damage per hit due to SA means that from an optimization perspective you need to prioritize your to hit and you can do that better with a Finesse Build. When doing DPR for Rogues Power Attack will oftentimes lower your DPR this might also be the case for a Slayer.
Building two builds for two different classes with exactly the same feats is usually not gonna be a fair comparison as you should try to compare two optimal builds. What is optimal will vary from class to class...
As promised:
Human Slayer 10
Ability Scores:
STR: 10 (+0)
DEX: 26 (+8) (18 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +4 belt)
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 8 (-1)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 7 (-2)
HP: 84 HP
Saving Throws
Fort: +9 Ref: +16 Will: +5
AC: 21 - Touch 19, Flatfooted 13 (+2 +1 padded armor, +8 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Kukri +21/+21/+16/+16, d4+19+3d6/d4+16+3d6 dmg (15-20/x2)
BAB: +10 CMB: +13 CMD: 29
Feats:
Weapon Focus
Piranha Strike
Improved Critical
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Step Up
Weapon Finesse
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
2x +2 Agile Kukri
Belt of +4 Dex
+1 Padded Armor
Cloak of Resistance +1
Ring of protection +1
Again, assuming Flank, Sneak Attack, and Favored Target:
Dex Slayer DPR = 113.15
Now, this build was done with Point-Buy vs Elite Array, as well as assumed legality of Agile enchantment and Piranha Strike feat.
It STILL loses out to the previously built Ranger, in the same situation.
Ranger DPR, with Flank, Ranger's Focus = 114.9
It also STILL loses 2 skill points per level, by virtue of being human and affording the 8 Int as well as all the other inherent benefits of Rangerhood, given the previously limited build.
EDIT: If desired, I can also do an uninhibited Ranger build, complete with Point Buy, Animal Companion and Spells.
I thought that the whole move action study applies to the studied target until A: they or the Slayer die or B: the Slayer spends another move action to designate a new target. These posts about the unwillingness to use a move action suggests that it's a 1 round use.
If you don't want to use the move action in battle, remember, the Slayer is a battle scout/assassin/bounty hunter who could emphasize on stealth. They should ideally identify the most dangerous target before his allies arrive, study him then launch a surprise attack for favored target (and SA hopefully) damage and the coordinate with allies for maximum DPR.
But where IS the stealth? The Hunter feels more thematically stealthy. The Slayer is a killer not a trapper/ambusher - concepts better left to the Rogue I would imagine. Even as a "descendant" of the Rogue, the stealth stuff isn't entirely baked in except as a class skill, but nothing else really helps it out thematically except SA.
I get needing to study the foe, and taking a moment to do that is thematically appropriate. I just don't think in PF utilizing the move action for Favored Target works for that, as it ends up penalizing the Slayer where stealth and surprise are not an option.
And again, plenty of posters aren't that keen on the Sneak Attack schtick, AND you have to wait until 3rd level to get it.
As Lazurin Arborlon says:
The more I read these the more I sour on sneak attack for the slayer. The class begs for some sort of damage mechanic that can be executed solo and/ or at a distance with regularity. The whole fluff of the class is this brooding solitary stalker...a skilled and sleek killer.
[Emphasis mine]
Apart from the stalker stuff I absolutely agree...
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I thought that the whole move action study applies to the studied target until A: they or the Slayer die or B: the Slayer spends another move action to designate a new target. These posts about the unwillingness to use a move action suggests that it's a 1 round use.
If you don't want to use the move action in battle, remember, the Slayer is a battle scout/assassin/bounty hunter who could emphasize on stealth. They should ideally identify the most dangerous target before his allies arrive, study him then launch a surprise attack for favored target (and SA hopefully) damage and the coordinate with allies for maximum DPR.
That's nice... if you are talking a proper ambush or have time to set up in BEFORE the fight... you do not always have such luxury... and in truth NOT OFTEN do you always get that opportunity unless your entire party is built around foresight.
So if the fight starts without you having the time to prepare to fight your enemies, then your move action can often be taken up just by having to move into position to even attack, not even counting full attacking which is a better idea if you are TWFing. So essentially until level 10 it's kinda a waste of an action in combat.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I like the idea of this class, but not the execution.
More to the point, I'd like this class a lot better if it had one solid bonus dmg output (cf. smite, rage, unarmed dmg progression, etc.) not two weaker ones. A lot of slayers will probably have the time/opportunity to set up only one or the other in a given combat encounter. Perhaps this was the intent all along, but of course there will be a few very specific builds that make it easier to combine the two, thus creating a situation where you have to choose to be sub-optimal or turn the game into an optimization exercise. The other new full bab characters look like a lot less hassle to play.
Would it be possible to combine the two damage sources? E.g. a power source not unlike ki or rage that gives you bonus dmg as a swift action. If you use a move action instead, you don't expend one of your daily uses.
Also, I agree that the class should have 6+Int skill points per level.
Anyway, a stalker with a shadowdancer dip would be interesting to playtest. :)
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Lots of good suggestions and observations on this thread.
I agree with Serpent; I also like the idea of this class, but it's not very efficient in, well, slaying.
As I've said before, at the moment a ranger/rogue, fighter/ranger and fighter/rogue all fulfill the role better than slayer. And let's not even talk about assassin when it comes to killing...
Alright, as has been suggested, I whole-heartedly agree that Favored Target should be a swift action, at least by 6th level. A +1 bonus to AC and saves per 3 levels, plus +1d6 to damage rolls.
Less sneak attack, maybe +1d6 per four levels?
More assassin-like (but distinctly slayer-ish) features/talents that disable/immobilize/slow targets, and/or prevent healing? (just throwing some ideas around here...)
As for skill points, I think six would be great, but I can live with four.
A slayer who takes EWP (firearms) as their 1st level feat does not seem to be eligible for the Grit talent.
The imaginary life of Garath, the 5th level elf Slayer (who does not slay elves)
Making the Elven Slayer
Standard 15 point buy; Strength for melee, damage, and composite bows (and possibly boosting later for Power Attack), Con for hit points, Int for skills and certain class featurs, Dex for ranged. Charisma can be safely neglected. I want to make a longbow wielding killer, so I park Charisma at 0 and focus on Dexterity. The rest I set at a base of 12. After adjustments, his Constitution is a relatively frail 10, but I can't figure out how to boost it inexpensively. I could lower his Int to 10, and park his Wisdom at an unhelpful 11, but frankly, I intend to boost his Dex up to 18 at the first opportunity. So, low Constitution it is, and Toughness is looking tempting but out of reach. Looking over Slayer, I see I have zero customizable options, so enhancing his ranged attack at 1st level is not an option. Therefore, for his first level feat I need to boost his deadliness, particularly damage. Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim look like my best choices. I go with Deadly Aim.
Garath
Elf Slayer 1
AC 16 (+3 armor, +3 Dex), hit points 11 (yeah, better take that favored class bonus)
Attack: longbow +4 (1d8/x3) or longbbow +3 (1d8+2/x3) (with Deadly Aim) or halberd +2 (1d10/x3)
Saves Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10
Racial Traits: elven immunities (handy), keen senses (sweet), elven magic (meh), weapon familiarity (meh), and low-light vision (nice)
Class Features: favored target, track
Feats: Deadly Aim
Skills: Acrobatics +6*, Climb +5, Knowledge (geography) +6, Perception +7, Stealth +6, Survival +5. *Includes ACP. That part seems pretty cool. I notice that even though (IMO) they “should” have 6 ranks/level like a ranger, the encouragement to spike Intelligence a little bit means most Slayers will be okay on skill ranks regardless.
Gear (175 gold)
Longbow (1d8/x3, range 100 ft) 75 gp
halberd (1d10+1/x3) 10 gp (longbow doesn't mix with shield and I don't feel like screwing with a buckler, so some damage type diversity and brace is good)
studded leather armor (+3 armor bonus, ACP -1) 25 gp (because I'm broke and because -1 ACP
Some arrows and waterskin and stuff
So let's assess our capabilities. Not much of a double threat, but honestly, melee could be worse. A common orc has a lower AC (13) but is far, far more dangerous in melee (falchion +5, doing 2d4+4/18-20) so Garath must never melee one. In a pinch, he'll grab some distance, brace his halberd, and hope for the best. So let's say we put him up against one orc. In round one, he'll probably win initiative, select a favored target and shoot (using Deadly Aim), hitting on a 9 or higher. If he hits, he'll do 1d8+3 damage, enough to take the orc out if he can roll a 3 or higher. So, there is a little over a one in three change he can take the orc out in round one. The orc retaliates by charging, needing a 9 or higher to hit and doing 2d4+4/18-20, requiring a damage roll of at least 7 to take him out. Slightly better than a one in eight chance. Hey, that's not that bad. If he can get the orc down to 0, the orc will be staggered and he can continue to simply move and shoot until the orc expires. Also, if he clips does not take down the orc on his first shot, he can drop Deadly Aim, hit on a 8 or higher, and still do 1d8+1... even if he does minimum on both hits the orc is going down. A single critical hit will take Garath down to about -7 hit points. Garath feels very vulnerable at this level but still seems to have an edge on an appropriate single opponent. He's not too worried about a CR 1 wolf, either, with its paltry to-hit bonus and his reasonable CMD, but he's not going to take chances.
Garath Level 2
Garath would really like to boost his archery capabilities, but at this level, I'm struck by the lack of such options. Surprise attack is pointless, as he has no sneak attack. The most sensible thing seems to be to grab combat trick (Point Blank Shot). Right now, he feels like a slightly sad fighter who can track. He rolls another d10 for his hit points, gets a bum 3, and takes his favored class bonus again, netting him a total of 15 hit points. He's pretty satisfied with the base level of Knowledge (geography), so he takes a rank of Ride, instead, and then boosts the rest of his skills, which are quite respectable.
Garath Level 3
Garath gets sneak attack! He is so happy now that he can reliably one-shot orcs, and he might be willing to take on two wolves by himself. Garath would really like to be a better archer, but he feels like Dodge or Toughness might be a better choice. He is starting to get worried about enemy spellcasters who cast damaging spells, too. There is no way to cover all ground. Dodge is a hit point multiplier, but his hit points are themselves paltry, and that doesn't help against spells. Rapid Shot looks very attractive, but he's already milking an attack roll penalty for damage, so that's a very long haul choice. Weapon Focus would aid him mathematically, but does nothing for his melee capabilities if he gets into trouble. Gritting his teeth, he selects Weapon Focus, as he just doesn't want to miss any more. Another bum roll, this time a 4, leaves him with a solid 20 hit points. He is is still a little worried about humanoid opponents critting him on their first hit, so he resolves to always attack from surprise at a distance of either 30 feet or 100 feet.
Garath Level 4
Garath takes the Dex boost, getting to 18, and is wondering if that's a good place to park. Garath eyes Snap Shot and Surprise Attack as talents, both choices that might net him more delicious sneak attack in surprise rounds. However, he reasons that he doesn't want to just win initiative, he wants to do lots of damage to opponents who haven't even detected him yet. Deadly Range it is, allowing him to start combat with a sneak attack, 40 feet away, preferably behind an obstacle that blocks a charge, with surprise. However, his damage is still not very hard-hitting. With a composite bow, he's now doing 1d8+1/x3, 1d8+4/x3 with favored target and Deadly Aim in play. With sneak attack, he can look at doing a respectable 12 points of damage on an average hit, and his attack routine feels very slow. However, his accuracy is very good, at +9 to hit, +10 with his masterwork bow, +11 against his favored target.
Garath Level 5
Favored target improves to +2, and he takes Rapid Shot as his 5th level feat. The murkiness and frustration of his earlier career have dissipated. All at once, he's striking a favored foe +10/+10 doing 1d8+7+1d6. Well, that escalated quickly. On a good round, he's dealing 30 points of damage. His damage output basically just doubled. At this point, Garath is feeling pretty good about himself, although he does have reservations about the career path he has chosen. Even with his masterwork halberd, he's rolling +9 to hit against favored targets; if he can flank, that's probably good enough. He's always begging for temporary hit points, and virtually every fight begins with him hidden, using his teammates as bait, but he's pulling his own weight. Even though his skills have kept up, his only real booster is track. Still, his Perception and Stealth are good, and Acrobatics is handy. He kind of wishes he had Use Magic Device at a useful level, but has contented himself with relying on potions and teammates. Because all he really has is a fairly good offense and rather modest defenses, he has put himself in the “skill monkey” role, frequently scouting ahead and gathering intelligence on enemies. When the party's arcane caster puts invisibility on him, he's effectively undetectable by most normal opponents. With higher accuracy but lower sneak attack, he fights incredibly like a longbow-wielding rogue (and since he's an elf, he's starting to wonder if that would not have been a better path). Tracking is nice, but he's not sure it's worth giving up Disable Device, trapfinding, and scroll use. In a moment of existential crisis, he begins to reason that if it were not forbidden by playtesting rules, he would be tempted to take two levels of rogue next. He can afford to lose a point of BAB, he'd like another die of sneak attack, and evasion just might keep him alive. He starts to wonder if being 3/4 rogue and 1/4 ranger might actually be more efficient than his current ratio, which seems closer to fifty fifty and a little soft on both sides. He has a ranger's BAB, but a lower sneak attack progression than a rogue, and a rogue's talents, but no ranger spells. Wild empathy is no great shakes, but why does he only have two line items on his first level table? Why does he start his career playing like a ranger who gets half his bonuses most of the time instead of all the bonus some of the time? So, on behalf of Garath, I'd like to ask... can he at least have his two extra skill ranks?