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With the arcanist in the same book, I'm really keen on the idea of hybrid casting. The idea of preparing spells so that they are "in hand" but then casting them spontaneously seems very appropriate for their source, and it would be much easier to integrate with their spirit magic.
They MAY want to steer clear of that casting mechanic for the shaman, if only because the Spirit Shaman of 3.5's Complete Divine operated with the same premise. Maybe...
I'm really enjoying building a level 6 Battle/Wandering Stone Shaman. Both don't depend much on Charisma, so it can be dumped to 8.
Witchwolf for claw x2.
Power Attack
Battle- initial hex is Hampering Hex to give -2 to AC and CMD, no save.
Extra Feature for a bite attack.
Extra Hex at level 5 for Battle Master, taking Weapon Specialization in claws.
Stone- Wandering Hex on Stone Stability for Improved Trip
Enlarge Person 1/day
Looks like it'll be a lot of fun. Great melee battlefield control, and between Witchwolf being able to trade out its attacks for darkvision and a bonus to saves and Shaman being able to switch out Stone for something else, there's a ton of flexibility.
With the arcanist in the same book, I'm really keen on the idea of hybrid casting. The idea of preparing spells so that they are "in hand" but then casting them spontaneously seems very appropriate for their source, and it would be much easier to integrate with their spirit magic.
That's what occurred to me last night as well.
Although I don't want to see the shaman have a spell book, I very much would like to see it's spell casting more tied to the spirits it bonds with.
I tried a spontaneous version...building spells known soley from spirit spell lists...but it didn't really fly.
I like the idea of using the hybrid casting of the Arcanist.
The Shaman is after all another spontaneous vs prepared caster, and it would be nice to have an arcane and divine variant of the mechanic.
If they choose to stick with standard cleric style prepared casting...I think they should switch up "Spirit magic" to allow free spontaneous casting of spells from their spirit allies lists....not just one slot of each level per day.
I'm not sure what you mean by "free" spontaneous casting. As in they can trade out any prepared spell slot for a spell from a spirit list, or they can cast spells from the spirit list without limitation? Because the latter is problematic for what I would hope are obvious reasons. The former is still a pretty huge advantage that would put them far-and-away above a cleric in terms of flexibility and power. Basically, imagine a cleric that can switch any spell slot for a domain spell and gets to change one of its domains every day, then also gets oracle revelations on top of it, all in exchange for channel energy, unless they decide they need it that day and take the life spirit, in which case they get all of that stuff in exchange for nothing.
I'm not sure what you mean by "free" spontaneous casting. As in they can trade out any prepared spell slot for a spell from a spirit list, or they can cast spells from the spirit list without limitation? Because the latter is problematic for what I would hope are obvious reasons. The former is still a pretty huge advantage that would put them far-and-away above a cleric in terms of flexibility and power. Basically, imagine a cleric that can switch any spell slot for a domain spell and gets to change one of its domains every day, then also gets oracle revelations on top of it, all in exchange for channel energy, unless they decide they need it that day and take the life spirit, in which case they get all of that stuff in exchange for nothing.
What I meant is that they can spontaneously cast spirit spells, as Clerics spontaneously cast cure spells, or Druids spontaneously cast summons spells.
Is that more flexable than the cleric or druid ?.....sure, they will have 2 spells at each level instead of one spell of each level they can cast spontaneously.
Is that "broken"?....I don't think it's broken at all....I don't think it's even "over powered".
However we have always allowed clerics to spontaneously cast domain spells rather than cure/inflict.
It makes their choice of domains and the themes of their god mean a lot more.
For years the only setting I played in was Dragonlance, a setting where it was the "norm" for clerics to spontaneously cast their domain spells.
It was never a problem in regards to balance, and was a very refreshing change from pigeon holing the cleric into the role of "band aid".
If a cleric of a fire god wants to blow all of his prepared 4th level spells casting a fire spell...more power to him.
It thematically ties him to his deity much better.
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I'd enjoy being able to get my Wandering Spirit's spirit familiar ability on my familiar as well. Not necessary, but it'd be kind of cool to get a little more mileage out of the guy!
it sounds like they are considering giving the shaman its own list if they have to but they really want to avoid it from the sounds of it.
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I'd enjoy being able to get my Wandering Spirit's spirit familiar ability on my familiar as well. Not necessary, but it'd be kind of cool to get a little more mileage out of the guy!
I am guessing its a missing amount of text, or if it was in there it was not correctly worded to state that it is counting your Focused Spirit and your Wandering Spirit. Honestly there is nothing that overpowered with any of the combinations as by the time you hit fourth level the protections given to your familiar from whatever spirit are very minor benefits at the later levels in the game.
Battle = +2 Natural Armor.
Bone = Constant Blur effect.
Flame = Immunity to fire, vulnerable to cold, sheds harmless light like a candle.
Heavens = Can be used as a star map, gains 5 fly speed if it couldn't fly, if it could fly it gains 10 fly speed.
Life = Fast Healing 1.
Lore = +2 to Initiative, +4 to Stealth.
Nature = This is a two parter. Firstly it can move through any undergrowth or natural difficult terrain without impediment to movement. Secondly if it can fly it can ignore the fly skill penalty for winds up to windstorm strength, retains this feature at level 20.
Stone = DR 5/Adamantine.
Waves = Mobility feat for free, ignore perquisites. Can breathe underwater.
Wind = Resist Electricity 10.
A few combinations with the above as a key just show that it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow it.
Bone/Waves
Wind/Fire
Heavens/Nature
Bones/Life
Battle/Waves
Lore/Wind
I'd enjoy being able to get my Wandering Spirit's spirit familiar ability on my familiar as well. Not necessary, but it'd be kind of cool to get a little more mileage out of the guy!I am guessing its a missing amount of text, or if it was in there it was not correctly worded to state that it is counting your Focused Spirit and your Wandering Spirit. Honestly there is nothing that overpowered with any of the combinations as by the time you hit fourth level the protections given to your familiar from whatever spirit are very minor benefits at the later levels in the game.
The text seems pretty clear. There's no "Focused Spirit". It says "spirit class feature", which looks like just the first one. I agree that there's nothing particularly broken about using both- unless you figure out some pretty crazy gimmicks with Improved Familiar and Evolved Familiar. If it's not officially allowed, it seems like a fun minor house rule at the least.
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The text seems pretty clear. There's no "Focused Spirit". It says "spirit class feature", which looks like just the first one. I agree that there's nothing particularly broken about using both- unless you figure out some pretty crazy gimmicks with Improved Familiar and Evolved Familiar. If it's not officially allowed, it seems like a fun minor house rule at the least.
I can think of a few crazy gimmicks at 1st level.
Familiar: Bat (Size = Diminutive, +12 natural to Stealth)
Spirit: Lore (+4 to Stealth for familiar)
Feat: Eidolon Evolution (Evolution = Skill Focus Stealth = +8 to Stealth)
Bat's Dex of 15: +2
Stealth Total: +26, lowest possible is a roll on a 2 to get 28 and highest is a 46.
Familiar: Squirrel (Normal AC: 18)
Familiar Increase: (+1 AC)
Spirit: Battle (+2 AC)
Feat: Eidolon Evolution (Evolution = +2 AC)
Total AC: 23
Familiar: Cat
Spirit: Bones (Blur)
Feat: Eidolon Evolution (Tentacle, at level 3 pick up Eidolon Evolution again to pick up the second Tentacle. Possible to get both at 1st level if Human)
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According to Jasons interview on Know Direction this evening, he isn't really sold on the idea of using the druid list. He isn't sure they want to make a new list, but whatever they decide will be in the new playtest document (late this week, or early next week)
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I think I'm with what people have said before in that the biggest problem with the shaman right now is that it hasn't really defined itself in terms of what it brings to the table that I as a player cannot get from other classes. As it stands I remember seeing this class prior to release and thinking it sounded like a niche I was already filling with the witch, oracle, druid, various cleric builds, and even the adept when I needed an NPC one. After the launch the description gave me this awesome image of a unique shinto priest style class focused on dealing with spirits and as people have talked this interesting caster who has less power of their own and more are acting as the vessel for the powerful spirits that they commune with. Unfortunately as of right now though, the class still feels too much like an oracle and as such still feels like it hasn't stepped up to that image the playtest has presented us with.
According to Jasons interview on Know Direction this evening, he isn't really sold on the idea of using the druid list. He isn't sure they want to make a new list, but whatever they decide will be in the new playtest document (late this week, or early next week)
Could you provide a link so I can see what else jason talked about?
also "phew" im glad to hear that xD
(sorry for double post)
I playtested a Shaman with a cleric list. It played like a cleric but more spirit-y. I loved it :D
http://paizo.com/campaigns/SleetStormsACGPlaytest/gameplay&page=1
Is that more flexable than the cleric or druid ?.....sure, they will have 2 spells at each level instead of one spell of each level they can cast spontaneously.
Is that "broken"?....I don't think it's broken at all....I don't think it's even "over powered".
However we have always allowed clerics to spontaneously cast domain spells rather than cure/inflict.
My point isn't that it's inherently game-breaking, just that it is a straight-up advantage over spontaneous casting; as such, if the Shaman is given the ability to spontaneously cast spirit spells, it will be strictly superior to the cleric, as the cleric is written. My objection isn't that the class will be broken, it's that there will be no mechanical reason to play a cleric instead of a Shaman after level four. I wouldn't mind if the standard Cleric, or even an official archetype, could spontaneously cast domain spells also, I just don't want to see the Shaman completely overshadow it, mechanically.
For years the only setting I played in was Dragonlance, a setting where it was the "norm" for clerics to spontaneously cast their domain spells.
It was never a problem in regards to balance, and was a very refreshing change from pigeon holing the cleric into the role of "band aid".
Huh, really? I never knew that. I only ever played Dragonlance before domains were a part of the rules and/or before divine casters were available in the setting. Learn something new every day.
Anyhow, this is kind of a tangent, but I actually think spontaneous cures were the best thing to happen to clerics in terms of "band aid" syndrome. Before, I think a lot of people insisted the cleric memorize a bunch of cures, which would basically limit him or her to being a band-aid, whereas with spontaneous cures, the cleric is free to spend slots on cooler, more useful spells, while still being able to reassure the party there is a cure up his sleeve if it's needed. I know it helped a few groups I was part of take baby steps away from the "band-aid" mindset.
My objection isn't that the class will be broken, it's that there will be no mechanical reason to play a cleric instead of a Shaman after level four.
Spontaneously change to cure/inflict spells, more channel energy per day (if you choose that), way more domains to choose from so more domain spell choices, domains do different things from hexes, higher fort save, shield proficiency...that's about all I can think of.
My objection isn't that the class will be broken, it's that there will be no mechanical reason to play a cleric instead of a Shaman after level four.Spontaneously change to cure/inflict spells, more channel energy per day (if you choose that), way more domains to choose from so more domain spell choices, domains do different things from hexes, higher fort save, shield proficiency...that's about all I can think of.
Don't forget archetypes that give you actual class features. Cleric is, by default, a bit light on features. (It's still a full caster, so it's not weak, but it doesn't have many bells or whistles.) Archetypes have mostly changed this by letting you trade one of your domains or channel energy for a big bag of stuff. If shaman ends up looking feature-packed compared to default cleric, I'm not too perturbed. Nobody actually plays default cleric, they're evangelists or undead lords or forgemasters or whatever.
My objection isn't that the class will be broken, it's that there will be no mechanical reason to play a cleric instead of a Shaman after level four.Spontaneously change to cure/inflict spells, more channel energy per day (if you choose that), way more domains to choose from so more domain spell choices, domains do different things from hexes, higher fort save, shield proficiency...that's about all I can think of.
Eh, I'm still not sold. Spontaneous cure/inflict spells just aren't very useful. They're certainly a strict downgrade from spontaneous spirit magic spells. Channel energy at least doesn't waste spell slots, but healing still usually isn't going to be the best use of your action. Simply put, it's not useful enough that two channels per day makes much of a difference. Similarly, I'd gladly spend a feat on shield proficiency, if it's that important, in exchange for everything a Shaman would get.
I'll grant that there are a lot more domains, and that's the main thing the cleric has going for it, I just didn't factor that in to my comment because I'm assuming there is going to be a similar multiplicity of spirits before very long. Even with the number of spirits there are now, I don't know if there are a pair of domains good enough that I'd rather get one domain spell per level per day than have access to two spirits' spells every level, without the need to prepare, in any slot, with the ability to change one of the spirits every day.
Don't forget archetypes that give you actual class features. Cleric is, by default, a bit light on features. (It's still a full caster, so it's not weak, but it doesn't have many bells or whistles.) Archetypes have mostly changed this by letting you trade one of your domains or channel energy for a big bag of stuff. If shaman ends up looking feature-packed compared to default cleric, I'm not too perturbed. Nobody actually plays default cleric, they're evangelists or undead lords or forgemasters or whatever.
To reiterate, I'm referring to a hypothetical Shaman that can spontaneously cast its spirit magic spells as a Cleric spontaneously casts cures. I'm not worried about the Shaman being more feature-packed, as it is, I'm just objecting to giving it a straight-up better version of a cleric feature in addition to what it already has.
For those unaware, there was a podcast last night by Know Direction with Jason Bulmahn as a guest and they talked about the Advanced Class Guide and the playtest and spoilered some of the upcoming changes to the classes.
There is a thread with mine, and others', notes here: Podcast Notes.
I think I'm with what people have said before in that the biggest problem with the shaman right now is that it hasn't really defined itself in terms of what it brings to the table that I as a player cannot get from other classes. As it stands I remember seeing this class prior to release and thinking it sounded like a niche I was already filling with the witch, oracle, druid, various cleric builds, and even the adept when I needed an NPC one. After the launch the description gave me this awesome image of a unique shinto priest style class focused on dealing with spirits and as people have talked this interesting caster who has less power of their own and more are acting as the vessel for the powerful spirits that they commune with. Unfortunately as of right now though, the class still feels too much like an oracle and as such still feels like it hasn't stepped up to that image the playtest has presented us with.
Agreed...
After posting last night...it occured to me that Dragonlance had done a shaman PrC that I actually liked very much...so I dug the old books out.
As I was looking it over...I realized the current shaman has almost nothing in the way of class abilities that distinguish it from an oracle.
I would rather dump the familiar, and gain something like "Spirit sight"
at first level (see the Menhir Savant in UM, that allows a shaman to detect ethereal, or invisible creatures, and allows him to discern between fey, undead, and outsiders.
I'd like to see them be able to count weapons wielded, unarmed attacks, and armor as "ghost touch".
Abilities to get information from the past from the spirits of place.
Currently, there are archytypes for the core and advanced classes that feel more "shamaney" than this class.
Do we know if any of the dev's are even reading this thread ?
I don't think I have seen any comments whatsoever from the powers that be....
Do we know if any of the dev's are even reading this thread ?
I don't think I have seen any comments whatsoever from the powers that be....
Have you tried leaving out milk and cookies? Maybe coffee?
Do we know if any of the dev's are even reading this thread ?
I don't think I have seen any comments whatsoever from the powers that be....
From the podcast, it sounds like Shaman is last on the to do list. (Makes sense. Shaman started much closer to the mark than most of the others, so they're working on the others first.) They said there will be revisions before the next PDF, mostly focused around the spell list. They said none of the options (druid, witch, cleric) were spot-on, and that they were considering a unique spell list, but wanted to avoid it if at all possible.
Overall, I'm optimistic. They're saying the right things, they just haven't had a chance to do anything yet.
Have you tried leaving out milk and cookies? Maybe coffee?Do we know if any of the dev's are even reading this thread ?
I don't think I have seen any comments whatsoever from the powers that be....
ROFLMAO....I hadn't considered leaving offerings out for them....where would be an appropriate place to leave such offerings ?
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Do we know if any of the dev's are even reading this thread ?
I don't think I have seen any comments whatsoever from the powers that be....
From the podcast, it sounds like Shaman is last on the to do list. (Makes sense. Shaman started much closer to the mark than most of the others, so they're working on the others first.) They said there will be revisions before the next PDF, mostly focused around the spell list. They said none of the options (druid, witch, cleric) were spot-on, and that they were considering a unique spell list, but wanted to avoid it if at all possible.
Overall, I'm optimistic. They're saying the right things, they just haven't had a chance to do anything yet.
Actually it worries me....I think the class has a long way to go, much more than a spell list fix.
I think there are thematic issues that really need to be addressed....and the Shaman and the Arcanist are really the only two classes I'm interested in...Guess I'll be patient and see what happens...I generally have liked everything they have done in the past.
*leaves out a plate chocolate covered espresso beans next to a Red Bull*
*leaves out a plate chocolate covered espresso beans next to a Red Bull*
Yes....like THAT won't make them absolutely CRAZY :)
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Guess I'll be patient and see what happens...I generally have liked everything they have done in the past.
I know what you mean, shaman is the one I was most excited for when they announced the new classes. I hope it comes back 110% more awesome.
*leaves out a plate chocolate covered espresso beans next to a Red Bull*
I'm tempted to steal the red bull from the altar, but I'm afraid of wha the gods will do to me in turn...
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Some of the classes in this playtest have been fantastic right out of the gate. Some have been problematic but promising. But the Shaman...I'm not seeing it. I mean, I'm not sure what the point of this class even is. What role is it filling exactly? I mean, sure it's kinda nice to have an alternative to the Oracle for similar abilities, but...eh.
It's not a bad idea for a class, I just feel like it doesn't really have any direction or niche at current.
I mean, I'm not sure what the point of this class even is. What role is it filling exactly?
It's filling the role of people who wanted to play a prepared Oracle with the Curse: "Deal with a thematically stupid familiar" which gives you a +4 initiative bonus as it's benefit.
It's filling the role of people who wanted to play a prepared Oracle with the Curse: "Deal with a thematically stupid familiar" which gives you a +4 initiative bonus as it's benefit.
Apparently there was a demand for that. :D
I'm liking its ability to play a full divine caster with flexibility. Oracle is great, but you end up pigeon-holed into whatever you pick. The Shaman gives me the ability to take a sizable chunk of the character and change it. I may build around Battle/Stone so I can trip stuff and get bonus damage to racial natural attacks, but I can swap Stone out for Lore and help with research outside the dungeon. Or switch over to a necromancy for a bit if I want lots of flanking buddies. It's more interesting than Cleric, and has more casting options than Druid.
Some of the classes in this playtest have been fantastic right out of the gate. Some have been problematic but promising. But the Shaman...I'm not seeing it. I mean, I'm not sure what the point of this class even is. What role is it filling exactly? I mean, sure it's kinda nice to have an alternative to the Oracle for similar abilities, but...eh.
It's not a bad idea for a class, I just feel like it doesn't really have any direction or niche at current.
+1
I think both the Shaman and Hunter suffers from the same problem.
The hunter is just a nerfed druid (lacking some important ranger spells) and the Shaman is just a more powerful version of the Oracle.
Another problem with the Shaman is the spell list. As pointed out by many the Druid list lack a lot of appropriate spells, but so does the Oracle list and the Oracle list comes with yet three more problems.
Listing all druid/cleric casters, with full caster leve:
Cleric list:
Druid:
I think the problem is obvious: We will have 3 full casters and 2 casters with 6/9 spell progression using Cleric list vs. the druid and Hunter.
The more I think about it the more convinced I am it should have its own spell list.
Yes, I know it is a lot of work for the Devs, but neither of the list really work.
If this got its own list It would probably be THE Devine class for me.
or
Use the Druid list and add a lot of spells from the Oracle list, like:
- all Remove spells (At least remove Curse and Blindness/Deafness)
- Speak with dead
- Protection from...
- Divination spells
- Detect undead
- Restauration
- etc
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I think both the Shaman and Hunter suffers from the same problem.
The hunter is just a nerfed druid (lacking some important ranger spells) and the Shaman is just a more powerful version of the Oracle.Another problem with the Shaman is the spell list. As pointed out by many the Druid list lack a lot of appropriate spells, but so does the Oracle list and the Oracle list comes with yet three more problems.
The Shaman not only doesn't really feel like as much of a shaman as it should, but it doesn't stand up well overall. I'm afraid this one might need a mulligan, or at least heavy revision.
A spell list unique to the Shaman would be a good start, totally agreed there. It also just needs more stuff dealing with spirits or the dead.
As for the Hunter, I proposed giving them spontaneous casting and Hunter-specific weapon training as a solution. It's not a good class right now, but it's a lot closer to being a good class than the Shaman is. :/
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Some of the classes in this playtest have been fantastic right out of the gate. Some have been problematic but promising. But the Shaman...I'm not seeing it. I mean, I'm not sure what the point of this class even is. What role is it filling exactly? I mean, sure it's kinda nice to have an alternative to the Oracle for similar abilities, but...eh.
It's not a bad idea for a class, I just feel like it doesn't really have any direction or niche at current.
+1
I think both the Shaman and Hunter suffers from the same problem.
The hunter is just a nerfed druid (lacking some important ranger spells) and the Shaman is just a more powerful version of the Oracle.Another problem with the Shaman is the spell list. As pointed out by many the Druid list lack a lot of appropriate spells, but so does the Oracle list and the Oracle list comes with yet three more problems.
Oracle list means we probably going to get one more Codzilla class (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might etc.).
Oracle list makes this class Orcale 2.0. I’m not saying it is better, but it sure is similar.
Oracle list and we now have 3 full casters using the Cleric list but only 1 class using the Druid list. Listing all druid/cleric casters, with full caster leve:
Cleric list:
Cleric
Oracle
Inqvisitor
Warpriest
Shaman Druid:
Druid
Hunter I think the problem is obvious: We will have 3 full casters and 2 casters with 6/9 spell progression using Cleric list vs. the druid and Hunter.
Inquisitor has its own list.
But what is the need for this affirmative action towards spell lists? It isn't like all lists are created equal or that there is some obligation to have list proliferate in equal amounts. I don't hear anyone saying we need more classes that use the paladin, magus, or inquisitor list. I think there is a very good reason not a lot of classes use the druid list, it is tailored to an extremely niche theme. You can have lots of different types of clerics based on how you want to focus your spell efforts, this naturally leads to being more usable by different themed classes. The idea that we need something to share this other list is a complete non-starter for me.
I still think far and away the best thing that could happen to this class would be that the spirits selected would have a more dramatic impact on the spell list, as Nighttree first suggested. Even if it didn't increase the hexes gained, perhaps just have access to more spirits that do nothing but provide a chunk of spells (perhaps a school.) While it may be more limiting than just giving the full cleric list, I think it would provide a fun level of customization.
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Ok so this week playtesting in society I did something kinda crazy. My Shaman is now Shaman2 / Martial Artist Monk 2. I took it for 3 reasons. extra attack options since the spells are more defensive and buffy in nature, grapple so I can have some fun, and evasion so in 4 levels cast a fireball centered on myself and not take damage. I'm fire spirit shaman just so you know. The overall plan is grapple, pulling them onto my spikes, then start burning them with the flame touch spirit ability. Basically I have now nicknamed myself the Human BBQ. :P
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The overall plan is grapple, pulling them onto my spikes, then start burning them with the flame touch spirit ability. Basically I have now nicknamed myself the Human BBQ. :P
Until you get Greater Grapple at L9 (when you meet the BAB requirements as Monk 2/Shaman 7), you'll use your standard action either maintain the grapple OR Touch of Flame them, but would not be able to both. Hilariously, at Shaman 8 when you gain Fiery Soul, you'll be able to grapple them and then during the next round maintain the grapple and deliver fiery cone of fire kiss right at their face....
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The overall plan is grapple, pulling them onto my spikes, then start burning them with the flame touch spirit ability. Basically I have now nicknamed myself the Human BBQ. :PUntil you get Greater Grapple at L9 (when you meet the BAB requirements as Monk 2/Shaman 7), you'll use your standard action either maintain the grapple OR Touch of Flame them, but would not be able to both. Hilariously, at Shaman 8 when you gain Fiery Soul, you'll be able to grapple them and then during the next round maintain the grapple and deliver fiery cone of fire kiss right at their face....
and add in the shirt of immolation for more fun. 8000GP I believe for 1d8+10 fire when I'm grappling or being grappled. so it'll be grapple, 1d8+2 (demonspike pauldrons) 1d8+10 (shirt of Immolation) just for grappling. and it is 1d8 for the spikes because my Mithral breastplate has armorspikes on it.
I still think far and away the best thing that could happen to this class would be that the spirits selected would have a more dramatic impact on the spell list, as Nighttree first suggested. Even if it didn't increase the hexes gained, perhaps just have access to more spirits that do nothing but provide a chunk of spells (perhaps a school.) While it may be more limiting than just giving the full cleric list, I think it would provide a fun level of customization.
This is in part what I see as lacking.
Aside from a lack of specifically, and IMO critical abilities that represent a shaman...there is still very little tie between what spells a shaman can cast, and the spirits he chooses to ally with.
Inquisitor has its own list.
True, my bad, but to be honest it is a “Best of the Cleric spells” list spiced up with a few wizard spells and a few Inquisitor spells added.
But what is the need for this affirmative action towards spell lists? It isn't like all lists are created equal or that there is some obligation to have list proliferate in equal amounts. I don't hear anyone saying we need more classes that use the paladin, magus, or inquisitor list. I think there is a very good reason not a lot of classes use the druid list, it is tailored to an extremely niche theme. You can have lots of different types of clerics based on how you want to focus your spell efforts, this naturally leads to being more usable by different themed classes. The idea that we need something to share this other list is a complete non-starter for me.
I still think far and away the best thing that could happen to this class would be that the spirits selected would have a more dramatic impact on the spell list, as Nighttree first suggested. Even if it didn't increase the hexes gained, perhaps just have access to more spirits that do nothing but provide a chunk of spells (perhaps a school.) While it may be more limiting than just giving the full cleric list, I think it would provide a fun level of customization.
I agree the list may have gotten too much focus, but it is one of the most important and problematic part of the class.
I'd like the class get more focus on spirits and on Divination.
"neo-druid"There is no (wooden) spoon.
I don't get it ???...........:(
I don't get it ???...........:("neo-druid"There is no (wooden) spoon.
Bad Matrix joke. Neo is the hero of the film.
I don't get it ???...........:("neo-druid"There is no (wooden) spoon.
I mean, I'm not sure what the point of this class even is. What role is it filling exactly?It's filling the role of people who wanted to play a prepared Oracle with the Curse: "Deal with a thematically stupid familiar" which gives you a +4 initiative bonus as it's benefit.
Or people who wanted to play a Cleric with revelations instead of domain powers and were okay with dealing with a familiar in exchange for +4 initiative.
I don't know if I necessarily see the thematic problem unless we're going for a really narrowly-tailored idea of a Shaman, which I think is an awful idea for a base class. Aside from the fact that there isn't exactly solid, universal agreement on what that narrowly-tailored vision of a Shaman would be, tying a base class to a very specific and restrictive idea drastically limits the kind of campaigns and settings in which it could reasonably fit.
Simply put, the class should remain thematically broad and the fine-tuning of the fluff as to what spirits are and how they interact with the Shaman should come down to the player.
Mechanically speaking, the class could use a lot of changes if it is supposed to feel in any way unique or is supposed to seem remotely similar to the witch. As it stands, it seems more like an oracle/cleric hybrid inexplicably given a familiar.
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I mean, I'm not sure what the point of this class even is. What role is it filling exactly?It's filling the role of people who wanted to play a prepared Oracle with the Curse: "Deal with a thematically stupid familiar" which gives you a +4 initiative bonus as it's benefit.
Or people who wanted to play a Cleric with revelations instead of domain powers and were okay with dealing with a familiar in exchange for +4 initiative.
I don't know if I necessarily see the thematic problem unless we're going for a really narrowly-tailored idea of a Shaman, which I think is an awful idea for a base class. Aside from the fact that there isn't exactly solid, universal agreement on what that narrowly-tailored vision of a Shaman would be, tying a base class to a very specific and restrictive idea drastically limits the kind of campaigns and settings in which it could reasonably fit.
Simply put, the class should remain thematically broad and the fine-tuning of the fluff as to what spirits are and how they interact with the Shaman should come down to the player.
Mechanically speaking, the class could use a lot of changes if it is supposed to feel in any way unique or is supposed to seem remotely similar to the witch. As it stands, it seems more like an oracle/cleric hybrid inexplicably given a familiar.
Shamans are thematically tied up with spirits in nearly all stories. From contacting ancestors for advice, to repelling dark spirits, to unleashing spirits of vengeance.
The Druid spell list doesn't really handle that aspect much. Only the Cleric spell list does. Oracles handle the 'spirit' aspect of traditional shamanistic stories better than shamans do.
It's like designing a Nature themed class that can't heal, tend, or nurture plants at all.
